[PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by grarrrg

There is a bit of confusion regarding the entry on the PFSRD (I don't have the book). It trades the same feature away twice.
The class trades away Favored Enemy, and gets Focused Enemy.
The class trades away Favored Enemy, and gets Focused Terrain.
Focused Terrain should obviously replaced Favored Terrain, and that is what the combinations are based on.

It wouldn't be the only one to do that, Wild Stalker also double trades for no apparent reason. Sensei also gains a feature and then trades a bonus feat for it that doesn't exist at that level. So yeah, I'm just trying to make it work out as best I can manage till errata maybe shows up.

Not looking like I'm getting anything done today, watched a movie this evening instead of doing Rogue/Ninja research and I'm once again at my sick limits of staying up. Cold medicine didn't work as I thought and woke me up in the wee hours severely dehydrated to the point that it hurt to drink. Just going back to not using drugs and letting my immune system kill it.

Ninja does look like it can do some Rogue archetype exchanges, as I do know they maintain some features that archetypes can make use of, namely Uncanny Dodge chain. Scout, looking at you.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by grarrrg

Nirmathi Irregular^{PCS: Inner Sea Magic}
Features Replaced: Weapon/Armor Prof., Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy, Favored Terrain, Spells (note: the Ranger still receives 1 each of Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain)
Valid Archetypes to Combine with: Beast Master, Horse Lord, Infiltrator, Spirit Ranger.
Does not combine with: Skirmisher, Trapper

Oh yeah, also, this isn't the only enhanced caster archetype for rangers, Spirit Ranger trades Hunter's Bond and Camouflage for Augury & Divination as spell-likes, as well as getting the ability to cast ANY ranger spell 1/day/4 levels of Ranger that he is capable of casting without preparing it ahead of time.

I'm also feeling somewhat better tonight, so I should be finishing up the initial sweep of the guide and then see about triple combos in the next post, as it's not looking like I'll be loping over.

EDIT: ...and done! The only thing I have to do now is add grarrrg's inputted Ranger Archetype and see about classes that can have more than 2 archetypes, which so far appear to be Barbarian, Monk, Ranger & Sorcerer, though I won't be doing Sorcerer a second time, since it only has 3 archetypes.

EDIT2: Changed the Broodmaster Archetype, at the suggest of Prime32's Archetype collection, as the book also directly calls out that the features are just tweaked to work with having more than one Eidolon, so that's not a major difference to exclude them from taking multiple archetypes. Look at that, Broodmaster Master Summoners, lots of weak creatures everywhere. It's like a Horde deck or something.

EDIT3: Forgot the Ninja alternate class for Rogues. Came to the sad, sad realization you can't be a Pirate Ninja.

[jmelesky]

For fighters, Dawnflower Dervish (from Inner Sea Primer; trades Armor Training 1-4) can combine with Savage Warrior (APG; trades Bravery, Weapon Training 1-4, Weapon Mastery), or with Armor Master (UC; trades same as Savage Warrior, plus Armor Mastery).

Oh, and Gladiator, too.

That's the only fighter archetype i've seen, aside from Gladiator, that combines with anything.

[Backlash3906]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

Is there any way thus far of combining THREE or more archetypes into a single build?

A Hexcrafter|Spellblade|Staff Magus seems legit.

Perhaps even so much that they would not be able to retire....

[RndmNumGen]

Broodmaster and Master Summoner both replace the Eidolon ability, don't they? Shouldn't they not work together?

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by RndmNumGen

Broodmaster and Master Summoner both replace the Eidolon ability, don't they? Shouldn't they not work together?

This is one of those RAW vs. RAI type things.

Strictly speaking, no they should not stack.
Intuitively though, there should be no conflicts.

Master Summoner's Eidolon grows at 1/2 normal rate.
Broodmaster gets a 2nd (small) Eidolon when it reaches 2HD.

Combined, it would get its 2nd Eidolon at level 4 instead of at level 2.


Note: It's still probably not a good idea to combine them, but it 'should' be possible to.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by RndmNumGen

Broodmaster and Master Summoner both replace the Eidolon ability, don't they? Shouldn't they not work together?

That's what I had initially. Prime32's guide changed my mind about it, as the features aren't actually replaced, they're just changed in respect for having multiple eidolons. Like grarrrg said, I wouldn't recommend taking both at the same time, due to having lots of weak creatures around unless you really want a bunch of gremlins or something.

[Crasical]

Can you actually combine Geisha and Archaeologist and still use the Tea Ceremony? "Archaeologists do not gain the bardic performance ability or any of its performance types", so it doesn't appear that the bard would be able to use the Tea Ceremony since they have no rounds of bardic performance.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Crasical

Can you actually combine Geisha and Archaeologist and still use the Tea Ceremony? "Archaeologists do not gain the bardic performance ability or any of its performance types", so it doesn't appear that the bard would be able to use the Tea Ceremony since they have no rounds of bardic performance.

It's a case of 'can,' rather than 'should'. You can combine Martial Artist with Qinggong yet there would be no benefit from doing so, since you have no ki to power your Ki Powers. Archaeologist and Geisha are much the same way.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

It's a case of 'can,' rather than 'should'.

There's actually a surprising number of those.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by ExemplarofAvg

There's actually a surprising number of those.

Not that surprising when you remember that the design team doesn't like mixing and matching power sets.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by ExemplarofAvg

There's actually a surprising number of those.

Originally Posted by Coidzor

Not that surprising when you remember that the design team doesn't like mixing and matching power sets.

So would it be helpful if I mark such combos with a warning that they're useless in combination or at least extremely ill-advised, like combining Broodmaster and Master Summoner?

[Beowulf DW]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

So would it be helpful if I mark such combos with a warning that they're useless in combination or at least extremely ill-advised, like combining Broodmaster and Master Summoner?

Only if you have the time. It would certainly be helpful.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Originally Posted by Beowulf DW

Only if you have the time. It would certainly be helpful.

I might even go so far as to suggest a cross reference chart where you can see what archetypes combine with what. And mark the one's that are pointless (or near point less, Grenadier Vivisectionist,) differently with a note saying "While these can combine, it's not generally recommended."

[Silus]

On the topic of "can" and "should", can you blend the Dawnflower Dervish Bard Archetype with anything, and if so, should you?

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Silus

On the topic of "can" and "should", can you blend the Dawnflower Dervish Bard Archetype with anything, and if so, should you?

Given it trades out both Bardic Knowledge and Loremaster, which a lot of other archetypes trade out, it severely limits what it can actually combine with. The only archetypes available (at least according to my tables, which won't include any of the myriad PF Companions and whatnot) are Savage Skald, Song Healer and Sound Striker. Given the Battle Dance only affects Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics, as well as it specifically says that all other bardic performances work as normal, there's nothing wrong with and it can work quite well in combination with any of those 3. A Dawnflower Skald could be pretty interesting in emulating a barbarian of sorts, where the Battle Dance is her own variant of rage.

[grarrrg]

Just noticed something relevant.

Monk Vows:

A monk who takes a vow never gains the still mind class feature, even if he abandons all his vows.

How in the heck does this interact with Archetypes?

[Benly]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

It's a case of 'can,' rather than 'should'. You can combine Martial Artist with Qinggong yet there would be no benefit from doing so, since you have no ki to power your Ki Powers. Archaeologist and Geisha are much the same way.

Archaeologist and Geisha actually isn't a particularly terrible combination (at least, no worse than Geisha usually is) since Tea Ceremony is a mostly-useless ability anyway. The Tea Ceremony ability ends up being a dead feature, but the main draw of Geisha is the Diplomacy boost from Geisha Knowledge replacing Bardic Knowledge, and an Archaeologist can benefit from that as well as anyone can (and the other archetypes that get Diplomacy boosts all trade off bardic music, making them incompatible with archaeologist). Thematically it's kind of weird, but mechanically it's not a bad idea if you want a Diplomacy-focused archaeologist.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by grarrrg

Just noticed something relevant.

Monk Vows:

How in the heck does this interact with Archetypes?

Hmm, I guess vows are like oaths except that they always cost you Still Mind. I guess I can put that in as a restriction on Monk archetypes.

Originally Posted by Benly

Archaeologist and Geisha actually isn't a particularly terrible combination (at least, no worse than Geisha usually is) since Tea Ceremony is a mostly-useless ability anyway. The Tea Ceremony ability ends up being a dead feature, but the main draw of Geisha is the Diplomacy boost from Geisha Knowledge replacing Bardic Knowledge, and an Archaeologist can benefit from that as well as anyone can (and the other archetypes that get Diplomacy boosts all trade off bardic music, making them incompatible with archaeologist). Thematically it's kind of weird, but mechanically it's not a bad idea if you want a Diplomacy-focused archaeologist.

True enough, though the Tea Ceremony seems to be mostly a method of getting one of the Inspires to last much longer at a stint for 4 rounds of music per beneficiary. Nice if you want to be able to cast while an Inspire is going or if you want to activate a second song, since the Tea Ceremony doesn't seem like it would interfere with that, since it'll keep going regardless of what the Geisha does.

The Archaeologist also benefits from the free Scribe Scroll, as they're still a caster.

[deuxhero]

Thought I should note the following subdomains don't overlap with changed features

Ash+Smoke
Freedom+Revolution
Decay+Growth
Storms+Seasons

Which is applicable to Clerics, Inquisitors and (except for the 2nd) Druids.

(OK, not technically archetypes, but close enough)

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by deuxhero

Thought I should note the following subdomains don't overlap with changed features

Ash+Smoke
Freedom+Revolution
Decay+Growth
Storms+Seasons

Which is applicable to Clerics, Inquisitors and (except for the 2nd) Druids.

And Sacred Servant Paladins
And the odd PrC.

[Zubrowka74]

Originally Posted by grarrrg

Just noticed something relevant.

Monk Vows:


How in the heck does this interact with Archetypes?

So, technically you can't take more than one vow. HeroLab generates a warning when you do this or when you mix any vows with Drunken Master, for example.

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by Zubrowka74

So, technically you can't take more than one vow. HeroLab generates a warning when you do this or when you mix any vows with Drunken Master, for example.

Well, the Monk Vow feature itself says

A monk may have multiple vows. Their effects and increase to his ki pool stack.

So it's allowed, but it says nothing of stacking with Archetypes.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Zubrowka74

So, technically you can't take more than one vow. HeroLab generates a warning when you do this or when you mix any vows with Drunken Master, for example.

I prefer trusting my own eyes than what a program may tell me, thanks. (not a fan of Herolab)

[Zubrowka74]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

I prefer trusting my own eyes than what a program may tell me, thanks. (not a fan of Herolab)

Of course, the books have the last word. Still, software may help find things that have been overlooked.

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by Zubrowka74

So, technically you can't take more than one vow. HeroLab generates a warning when you do this or when you mix any vows with Drunken Master, for example.

Probably a scripting error. It likely checks whether you have Still Mind to give since you don't after taking 1 vow.

[Benly]

Originally Posted by deuxhero

Thought I should note the following subdomains don't overlap with changed features

Ash+Smoke
Freedom+Revolution
Decay+Growth
Storms+Seasons

Which is applicable to Clerics, Inquisitors and (except for the 2nd) Druids.

(OK, not technically archetypes, but close enough)

You still can't combine them, though, unless there's some text I missed that allows it.

[Cieyrin]

Alright, I got a bit bored this evening so I went through and made corrections, typically adding or removing archetypes that are or are not compatible, fully integrating the Nirmathi Irregular that grarrrg provided, marked which Monk archetypes are capable of making vows/taking Monastic Legacy, since they key off the same thing (Still Mind) and adding a new text edit to archetypes that, while possible, don't get along.

Adding another thing to the "Why did they do that?" file, Martial Artists still have Abundant Step despite not having any ki to activate it. Way to leave a dead feature, Paizo.

Oh, and I redid the intro to something actually relevant, since the former message was obsolete.

[Doorhandle]

That's nothing. The geisha and savage skald archtypes are compatable.
You heard me. The geisha and savage skald archtypes are compatable.


"Would you like some rrrRRRRAGE! tea?

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Doorhandle

That's nothing. The geisha and savage skald archtypes are compatable.
You heard me. The geisha and savage skald archtypes are compatable.


"Would you like some rrrRRRRAGE! tea?

It's not a Tea Ceremony, it's a Berserker Lodge Bender.