[PF] Archetype Combos: Doing all the work b/c reading charts is bloody annoying

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

It's not a Tea Ceremony, it's a Berserker Lodge Bender.

They still call it tea though.
Or, more accurately 'T', as after they've had 6+ mugs of it, that's all they can pronounce.

[Starbuck_II]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Alright, I got a bit bored this evening so I went through and made corrections, typically adding or removing archetypes that are or are not compatible, fully integrating the Nirmathi Irregular that grarrrg provided, marked which Monk archetypes are capable of making vows/taking Monastic Legacy, since they key off the same thing (Still Mind) and adding a new text edit to archetypes that, while possible, don't get along.

Adding another thing to the "Why did they do that?" file, Martial Artists still have Abundant Step despite not having any ki to activate it. Way to leave a dead feature, Paizo.

Oh, and I redid the intro to something actually relevant, since the former message was obsolete.

But Quigong Martial Artist can trade Abundant Step for something (Diamond Body, Slow Fall, and Share Memories).

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

But Quigong Martial Artist can trade Abundant Step for something (one of the no Ki required abilities like feats).

I suppose you could Diamond Body back that way but still, kinda clunky, considering most of the options are useless, since there are very few 0 ki powers.

[Stone Heart]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

That's what I had initially. Prime32's guide changed my mind about it, as the features aren't actually replaced, they're just changed in respect for having multiple eidolons. Like grarrrg said, I wouldn't recommend taking both at the same time, due to having lots of weak creatures around unless you really want a bunch of gremlins or something.

It does not matter that they are not actually replaced, they are altered, and in the prd about multiple archetypes it says

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.

So unfortunately you can't have Brood Master Master Summoners.

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by Stone Heart

It does not matter that they are not actually replaced, they are altered, and in the prd about multiple archetypes it says



So unfortunately you can't have Brood Master Master Summoners.

We know that.
The point is that if you ask your DM and show that there really is NOT a conflict, it MIGHT be allowed (RAW/RAI).
Certain cases, like the Brood-Master-Summoner are NOT recommended, but there is no reason they couldn't stack.

[BIGMamaSloth]

Sorry if someone already brought this up or If I'm just plain wrong, But I believe seeker and stargazer can't play nice together as they both replace mystery bonus skills. Or is there some exception for replacing skills?

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by grarrrg

We know that.
The point is that if you ask your DM and show that there really is NOT a conflict, it MIGHT be allowed (RAW/RAI).
Certain cases, like the Brood-Master-Summoner are NOT recommended, but there is no reason they couldn't stack.

Pretty much this.

Originally Posted by BIGMamaSloth

Sorry if someone already brought this up or If I'm just plain wrong, But I believe seeker and stargazer can't play nice together as they both replace mystery bonus skills. Or is there some exception for replacing skills?

You are entirely correct and I'll be correcting it. Thanks for pointing it out. I'd like to remove as many errors as possible and if other things are incorrect, feel free to point them out.

[deuxhero]

Sohei+Master of Many Styles falls under "while possible, it's not recommended" outside of a dip, as the Sohei's main class feature that is largely dependent on Flurry.

[Chained Birds]

Did you forget the Crypt Breaker Alchemist in your combo-ing? Or was it not out yet when you made the list?

I only ask because I was going to see what can combo with that archetype and went immediately to your list... and was a bit confused.

[deuxhero]

Looks like it combines with
Chirurgeon
Internal Alchemist
Oenopion Researcher
Ragechemist (Need to burn a discovery to regain Mutagen to actually do anything with it)
Internal Alchemist+Chirurgeon

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by deuxhero

Sohei+Master of Many Styles falls under "while possible, it's not recommended" outside of a dip, as the Sohei's main class feature that is largely dependent on Flurry.

Hmm, indeed, I guess I hadn't read too closely to the Weapon Training granting Flurry. I'll update that.

Originally Posted by Chained Birds

Did you forget the Crypt Breaker Alchemist in your combo-ing? Or was it not out yet when you made the list?

I only ask because I was going to see what can combo with that archetype and went immediately to your list... and was a bit confused.

That's because it's from Inner Sea Magic, which isn't one of the books the list covers, as noted in the preface. The only addendum was the Nirmathi Irregular, since grarrrg provided the full info for it. I don't own the book, so I haven't perused its contents and the PF SRD isn't exactly nice for perusing things you aren't aware of.

[Chained Birds]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

That's because it's from Inner Sea Magic, which isn't one of the books the list covers, as noted in the preface. The only addendum was the Nirmathi Irregular, since grarrrg provided the full info for it. I don't own the book, so I haven't perused its contents and the PF SRD isn't exactly nice for perusing things you aren't aware of.

Okay, I was just curious. It's no big deal anyway due to the archetype being pretty decent for what's it worth.

Too bad it can't take vivisectionist or else it would replace rogue pretty much completely.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Originally Posted by deuxhero

Sohei+Master of Many Styles falls under "while possible, it's not recommended" outside of a dip, as the Sohei's main class feature that is largely dependent on Flurry.

But for a dip, it's outstanding. You trade the likely useless (for a dipper) stunning fist for the awesome ability to act in any surprise round. depending on the rest of your build, the proficiencies might actually help, too.

MoMS is a very dip-friendly archetype, as is Sohei. So they do make quite an awesome combo. For dippers.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Just wondering about a Master Summoner/First Worlder
Master Summoner lessens the Eidolon while First Worlder makes it a Fey.
First Worlder makes it Summon Nature's Ally instead of Monster
Master Summoner gives you 5+Cha uses per day of your Summon ability.

They don't clash, but they do mix a little. Is it legal to combine?
Concept is a Packmaster Brightwolf, Large Wolf Eidolon, then the Augment Summoning + Superior Summoning as well as Sunlight, Moonlight and Starlight Summons feats to make wolves summoned Bright and Shiny, with extra bonuses which the Eidolon can also benefit from when you spell-summon it.

[CanisDirus]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Welcome, welcome, to the Archetype Combo Guide.

Cieyrin, I just signed up to post and say THANK YOU for compiling this list. My newer players (I run several campaigns these days, and one of them is always one for newer/first-timers) have been after me for valid combos of archetypes without having to sit and scroll through d20pfsrd - this is *absolutely* perfect and wonderful!

Thank you again for doing the work on this and posting it for others to share!

[Psyren]

Sharing my appreciation as well, and I've sigged this handbook for easy reference.

@ Exemplar: in the strictest of senses they're an illegal combo, but I would personally allow it. There are plenty of "illegal" combos that I like enough to give the nod for other classes.

No one can tell you what to do at your table, the main reason I find the list of legal combos handy is for PFS play.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by ExemplarofAvg

Just wondering about a Master Summoner/First Worlder
Master Summoner lessens the Eidolon while First Worlder makes it a Fey.
First Worlder makes it Summon Nature's Ally instead of Monster
Master Summoner gives you 5+Cha uses per day of your Summon ability.

They don't clash, but they do mix a little. Is it legal to combine?
Concept is a Packmaster Brightwolf, Large Wolf Eidolon, then the Augment Summoning + Superior Summoning as well as Sunlight, Moonlight and Starlight Summons feats to make wolves summoned Bright and Shiny, with extra bonuses which the Eidolon can also benefit from when you spell-summon it.

By strictest RAW, First Worlder and Master Summoner both modify the Eidolon feature, so you probably can't combo them. But I don't see any home game DM denying usage of the two. They're at least somewhat more functional than Master Broodmasters are, especially with using the Summon modifier feats. The consistency of the rules on how features are replaced are modified definitely leaves something to be desired, though it's not as bad as Paladin Archetypes and Oaths are.

Originally Posted by CanisDirus

Cieyrin, I just signed up to post and say THANK YOU for compiling this list. My newer players (I run several campaigns these days, and one of them is always one for newer/first-timers) have been after me for valid combos of archetypes without having to sit and scroll through d20pfsrd - this is *absolutely* perfect and wonderful!

Thank you again for doing the work on this and posting it for others to share!

Originally Posted by Psyren

Sharing my appreciation as well, and I've sigged this handbook for easy reference.

As I said to others, you are welcome. It's why I put the list together, as reading the SRD archetype charts for determining combos is incredibly irritating and frustrating. The list should be mostly valid, though I have sneaking suspicions that there may yet be some errors hiding out, so if you guys or anyone else spots any, let me know so I can correct them.

[deuxhero]

So ARG introduced a bunch of new archtypes. One thing that stands out when combining is Blood God Disciple+Synthesist. It may or may not work because of how the wording is. It gives the Summoner an evolution, but only one the Eidolon has, so if it lets you take another instance of an evolution that you can take multiple times (such as minor magic or claws) it is a workable combination, if not, the first ability is useless. A minor related issue is if it count as eating for a Synthesist (normally of no concern as outsiders don't need to eat).

Of course given Blood Feast is an ability based off eating someone for a class that can get Swallow Whole and has no notes for how it interacts with Swallow Whole, failing to note how it would combine with Synthesist is the least of the issues with the archetype.

Edit: Quick glance of ARG stuff for witches

Witch
Dreamweaver: Legal with Hedge Witch. Dreamwever or Scarred Witch Doctor too if you can figure out a way to work around the race restrictions.
Bonded Witch: Legal with Dimensional Occultist, Hedge, Sea, White Haired, and if you somehow manage to do it, Dreamweaver.
Scarred Witch Doctor: Legal with Dimensional Occultist and Hedge Witch. Dreamweaver too if you can work around race.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Just looking at all these Paladin Oaths,
What's the maximum you can have? because if two can combine together plus the Oath of Loyalty, that's three, but can you have more? If you stack enough are you an Oath Knight?

Oath	1	1	2	1	1	1	2	2	3	4	2
Corruption						X					X
Fiends								X		X
Savagery				X							X
Undeath		X					x	X		X	X
Wyrm									X
Charity					X				X
Chastity				X						X
Loyalty			x
Vengeance										X

So, the numbers at the top show how many overlaps there are.
And the left side are the oaths. (I decided that film studies is worth goofing of in)

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by ExemplarofAvg

Just looking at all these Paladin Oaths,
What's the maximum you can have? because if two can combine together plus the Oath of Loyalty, that's three, but can you have more? If you stack enough are you an Oath Knight?

First off, you missed Channeling, and Holy Champion

Smite

Detect

Grace

Hands

A-Cour

Mercy3

Channel

Bond

A-Resol

Mercy9

A-Just

Holy Cha

Charity

X

X

2

Chastity

X

X

2

Corruption

X

X

X

3

Fiends

X

X

2

Loyalty

X

1

Savagery

X

X

2

Undeath

X

X

X

X

X

5

Vengeance

X

X

2

Wyrm

X

X

X

3

1

1

2

1

1

1

2

2

3

2

4

2

The max is 4 Oaths. 1 of which must be Loyalty. This is bad, as Loyalty is the only one that trades away Smite, 2 of the other Oaths require Smite to get the most use, and one can grant you more uses of Smite.
So while the Max is 4, the 'optimized' choice is only 3.

Charity and Fiends don't play nice together due to Charity losing Divine Bond, and Fiends getting to enchant both Weapon and Armor with their Bond.

Wyrm and Undeath are bad, because Wyrm trades Channel, while Undeath gets a bonus.

Aura of Resolve and Aura of Justice are the biggest roadblocks to what remains with 3 and 4 Oaths trading them.

Good 3-Oath combinations:
Charity, Chastity, Corruption
Charity, Chastity, Vengeance
Fiends, Savagery, Wyrm
Charity, Loyalty, Undeath
Again, Loyalty "can" be added to most of these, making a 4-Oath, but pairing with Corruption, Savagery, or Vengeance is a poor choice.

Likewise, there are some valid options that include both Charity and Fiends:
Charity, Corruption, Fiends
Charity, Fiends, Savagery
Charity, Fiends, Vengeance

[StreamOfTheSky]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Hmm, indeed, I guess I hadn't read too closely to the Weapon Training granting Flurry. I'll update that.

You should undo the cross-out for Sohei <--> MoMS.

As I said, dippers don't care about flurry going away, and they don't overlap. It's only at level 6 where the combo becomes a bad idea. How many people actually go that far into monk?

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky

You should undo the cross-out for Sohei <--> MoMS.

As I said, dippers don't care about flurry going away, and they don't overlap. It's only at level 6 where the combo becomes a bad idea. How many people actually go that far into monk?

This isn't the guide for that. If you want that, go to grarrrg's Class Dipping Guide.

[Rhody]

Hi, I'm new and might be off base here (and late to the party), but I'm not sure about certain classes that are listed as compatible...well, because of this from the SRD:

"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature." (Emphasis mine)

So, for example, wouldn't the Ranger Archetypes of Trapper and Urban Ranger be incompatible (much to my dismay!), since they both alter class skills? Just wondering.

Oh, and here's the link:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/class-archetypes

[Cieyrin]

Considering Trapper only adds Disable Device to their list, something Urban Rangers were already getting, I don't find that a very strong argument. If a skill was removed twice, that would be more cause to consider incompatibility. I don't think a GM is gonna deny you for gaining the same class skill twice.

[Rhody]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Considering Trapper only adds Disable Device to their list, something Urban Rangers were already getting, I don't find that a very strong argument. If a skill was removed twice, that would be more cause to consider incompatibility. I don't think a GM is gonna deny you for gaining the same class skill twice.

Oh. In that case, cool. Although, I think it would happen to me personally, since my GM is old-school and hates archetypes. But that's irrelevant for everyone else...
Thanks again for clearing that up!

[Squirrel_Dude]

I believe pistolero and the mysterious stranger can be combined as well. Or at least I don't see any reason that it shouldn't be able to.

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by Squirrel_Dude

I believe pistolero and the mysterious stranger can be combined as well. Or at least I don't see any reason that it shouldn't be able to.

That one is not really a valid combo.
The problem is that Pistol Training is VERY much intended to Replace Gun Training. And Mysterious Stranger loses Gun Training.

Typo/whoopsie/mistake. Needs Errata.

Only the most hardcore of STRICT RAW GM's would allow it.

[Akal Saris]

Just wanted to add my appreciation for this thread. It's often the 1st stop I make after I have a basic optimization idea in mind and open up the SRD.

Any plans to ever expand the list of archetypes covered to all of the ones on the OGC?

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by Akal Saris

Just wanted to add my appreciation for this thread. It's often the 1st stop I make after I have a basic optimization idea in mind and open up the SRD.

Any plans to ever expand the list of archetypes covered to all of the ones on the OGC?

My closest plans for expansion would be into the Advanced Race Guide, though I can't gander a timeframe for that, as previous promises have fallen through.