Adventures in Sigil - OOC - Part III [4E]

[Nai_Calus]

You'll be lucky if Eltain doesn't beat you and keep you chained up for a week for this. (And once again the ZyrrxEltain slashfic rears its ugly head...)

[Nai_Calus]

Quit eating new pages, forum.

[Hzurr]

Originally Posted by Orsik Vondal

"All shall burn before the might of Cania! Let none live who say The Ninth Hell is weak!"

Hmm...now I must debate whether the devils should mock Asheroth for not knowing that Cania is the 8th hell, or if as a DM I should be kind and go with what he meant rather than what he said.

...

LET THE MOCKING BEGIN!!

[Orsik Vondal]

Damn! I knew I made a mistake last night!

[Mando Knight]

Doesn't help that Cania is likely derived from Caïna, the first round of Hell's ninth circle in Dante's Inferno, which is where (AFAIK) the idea of the Nine Hells came from. That, and in the Inferno, the Ninth Circle is essentially a frozen lake where the worse the betrayal, the more completely frozen the damned is (with Satan himself completely frozen over in the center).

Baator is laid out differently from Dante's Hell, though.

[Hzurr]

Ok, so Baalzebul has given y'all a choice. If you choose the spelljammer route, we'll jump back into initiative and I'll update the map, and we'll go into dramatic escape scene! If y'all choose to accept his declaration of the victor, we'll jump into dramatic dinner with fiends scene!

EITHER WAY IT WILL BE SUPER DRAMATIC!!!

And as usual, there's also option c which y'all will end up choosing, but I don't know what that is yet.

--edit--

Originally Posted by Mando Knight

Doesn't help that Cania is likely derived from Caïna, the first round of Hell's ninth circle in Dante's Inferno, which is where (AFAIK) the idea of the Nine Hells came from. That, and in the Inferno, the Ninth Circle is essentially a frozen lake where the worse the betrayal, the more completely frozen the damned is (with Satan himself completely frozen over in the center).

Baator is laid out differently from Dante's Hell, though.

Huh. I've always meant to read Dante, but have never gotten around to it. I know that it largely influenced the dnd nine hells, but have never read it in detail. I'll need to put that on my list. Thanks for the info!

[Orsik Vondal]

Devilish dinner!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mando Knight]

Originally Posted by Hzurr

Huh. I've always meant to read Dante, but have never gotten around to it. I know that it largely influenced the dnd nine hells, but have never read it in detail. I'll need to put that on my list. Thanks for the info!

I haven't read it yet, either, though a new translation was recently put out (don't remember the translator, saw something about it in a newspaper a few weeks ago). I mostly pick things up via cultural osmosis, then double-check those on Wikipedia. Or TV Tropes, depending.

Also, the temptation to say "This is your last chance, Jabba. Free us, or die." is fairly strong.

[Haberdashery]

Originally Posted by Mando Knight

Also, the temptation to say "This is your last chance, Jabba. Free us, or die." is fairly strong.

I've totally been imagining Baalzebul as Jabba this whole encounter too.

[DSCrankshaw]

Originally Posted by Haberdashery

I've totally been imagining Baalzebul as Jabba this whole encounter too.

I think Hzurr's been suggesting it. So, dinner with the fiends? Daring escape? Crash the ship into Baalzebul?

[Hzurr]

Originally Posted by Mando Knight

Also, the temptation to say "This is your last chance, Jabba. Free us, or die." is fairly strong.

Originally Posted by Haberdashery

I've totally been imagining Baalzebul as Jabba this whole encounter too.

Originally Posted by DSCrankshaw

I think Hzurr's been suggesting it.

Well he is! I mean, read the description:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

"Asmodeus transformed Baalzebul, who now appears as a giant slug-like creature [...] and his arms are tiny and malformed"

How is that not Jabba the Hutt? Besides, when I have posts like this, how could I expect you all to think any differently:

Originally Posted by Hzurr

It begins as a deep laugh, a sinister "Ho Ho" that reverberates throughout the spelljammers and astral dreadnaughts "Now these slaves are my kind of scum. Fearless, and inventive."

So, Orsik, unsurprisingly, is suggesting dinner with Baalzebul. What are the rest of y'all thinking?

[Nai_Calus]

I'm obviously for dramatic escape, because 'dinner with one of the lords of the nine' is quite possibly one of the last things Eltain ever wants to do, and also even more retardedly dangerous than the dramatic escape attempt. Granted, Crankshaw's C of crashing the ship into Baalzebul is amusing.

I'm trying to think of option D. Give me a bit, I just woke up.

[Haberdashery]

Well, my love of over the top villains has me strongly leaning towards having dinner with a fantastically hammy Baalzejabba.

[Orsik Vondal]

How else is Zyrr gonna get paid? One million gold!? I say we take it! But we would probably have to have dinner to get all that cash money! Cha-ching!

[Orsik Vondal]

If we haven't come to a consensus about what to do by 5:30ish (when I get home from work), Ash is probably going to make his move. Not trying to jump the gun or anything, but he just sent out his planar ally to go find out where Lu is. He, or at least a part of him, cares where she is still. And leaving would cut that avenue of information off.

[Hzurr]

Originally Posted by Orsik Vondal

If we haven't come to a consensus about what to do by 5:30ish (when I get home from work), Ash is probably going to make his move. Not trying to jump the gun or anything, but he just sent out his planar ally to go find out where Lu is. He, or at least a part of him, cares where she is still. And leaving would cut that avenue of information off.

I'd suggest holding off on that. Not everyone is in your timezone, so some people with normal 9-5 jobs won't be done by then. We're not in a huge rush. Let's wait to get input rather than jumping the gun. We've only had the "vote" of 3/7 PCs, so I'd say hang on til we get a bit more of a group consensus. Some people might not have even seen the post yet.

[dariathalon]

Yeah, definitely please give these major decisions more than just an afternoon. I know I for one never have a chance to check the forums until after I get off work. I usually don't get home until at least well... now (give or take an hour). If I happen to have the day off, I'll of course post earlier, but most of the time my posts have to be done in the evening. And I know I'm not the only one.

As for the options...
A. Dinner with the fiends. I'm not too pleased about this one. While Pavick occasionally will work with a devil to get what he wants, this seems like we'll end up giving a lot more than we might be able to take. However, we really haven't gotten much information yet, and this would give us a chance to get a bit more. There is also a possibility for bartering for Lu. Plus, we'll probably find a chance to meet up with Zyrr again.

2. Escape by Jammer. We'll leave with only slightly more information than we came with, and we won't accomplish our mission to rescue Lu. Both negatives. On the positive side, we might be able to get away without giving anything to the devils, but it'll be tough. And if we don't make it (which lets be honest, with our rolls, seems like we won't make it) we'll end up in an even worse position. Reuniting with Zyrr seems more difficult also.

III. Certainly my favorite of the options. Unfortunately, I don't know what it is yet.

I guess if I have to choose one of the first two though I'd reluctantly go with A. Neither is a perfect option, but it gives us a possibility to come out of this with our goals met. Either way is probably going to come down to skill usage, and our party is overall a lot better on the social side of things, I think. The other way gets us out of here, but with our tails between our legs and little more to show for it than a good story (not that Pavick especially minds a good story, especially one as ripe for exaggeration as this one is!)

[Nai_Calus]

Tails between our legs, perhaps, but it's still a far better option of the two than dealing with fiends.

And Gods, no, negotiating for anyone is an absolutely horrible idea. Remember how well the last negotiation with fiends went? ;p And that was just the DM's pet succubus. We are *not* going to come out anything but massively behind and in debt some characters cannot and will not accept from trying to negotiate with one of the lords of the nine hells. I know everyone else has a devil fetish, but just once can we consider that not everyone finds working for devils acceptable? :/

Seriously, I'd rather die in an escape attempt that leaves Eltain's honor intact than have him essentially enslaved to devils, which is what's going to happen here. Again.

If we must absolutely dine with Jabba, and I am in no way at all advocating that, the best thing to do is to not at all mention what we're here for. Zyrr is still loose, and still able to act. He's most likely to be able to escape on his own, for that matter, speaking of escape which we should be doing. If Asheroth's thing finds Lu, we can get word to Zyrr and have him try to extract her and the other prisoners.

Mention them, and there's really no getting them back. :p

Escape is still our best option, IMO. Don't forget that if we can get clear of at least the center, Eltain can whip up a nice huge crazy blizzard to mess with the devils and distract them/help cut off pursuit.

And yes, there's always the third option nobody has thought up yet. :p

And I disagree that we've barely learned anything. We know where the devils went, we know they're gearing up for something big, that Mephistopholes apparently isn't in on the party and that Graz'zt apparently is. That's a ton, and gives us time to prepare and also check up on what the devils seem to be up to. We need to eventually visit the elemental chaos anyway.

We should cut our losses and run before we lose more in a misguided attempt to not give up on the basically hopeless.

[dariathalon]

No offense meant here, but I think you are overstating things a little.

I don't think anyone (with the possible exception of Ash) has a devil fetish. Most of us don't really want to work with the devils, Pavick is only willing to deal with them if there isn't a better option for accomplishing our goals . I don't think anyone has presented a better way of doing that yet. Getting out of here is great, but it doesn't do what we set out to do. If you can come up with a way to do that (especially one that doesn't rely on Zyrr having to make it out on his own), Pavick would be all over it. I hope you don't think that Pavick doesn't care about the fact that Eltain doesn't like dealing with devils. He does, and wants to look for another way too. At first blush, I just wasn't seeing one.

I don't know where you're getting this certainty of being enslaved from (nor the "again" for that matter). A discussion is just that. No agreements need to be entered into.

Thinking a little more, I've come up with this: If we do run, I suppose Pavick could try to send a message to Lu and find out the situation there. Something about the info already revealed makes me think there is probably a hostage or something ensuring Lu's cooperation. We might be able to do something about that. Then, with Lu's reknown with planar magic s/he (I don't remember gender ever actually coming up on Lu) might be able to make it out on his/her own. So I suppose that is a possible option 3, and like I said, I like option 3. (Though if anybody else has any other option 3's I'd be glad to hear them!)

[Toric]

I do like the idea of finding out what you can and passing the info along to Zyrr. Of course that's partially because my character gets to be a special snowflake.

I can get Zyrr to that ship one way or another if we leave, but I like the idea of staying and having dinner with Dr. No.

[Nai_Calus]

The party reaction every time fiends come up seems to be 'cool, let's work for them', usually OOC but sometimes IC as well. ;) See: Dellarin, Zorella and the current 'Sweet, let's eat dinner and negotiate with Baalzebul' vibe I'm getting from the OOC.

...I guess I kind of do have a 'nobody cares what Eltain thinks' complex to a degree. He has a long history of his ideas/desires/earnings being ignored or dismissed, heh. Also a personal inferiority complex related to... OOC things from earlier this year I haven't fully suppressed yet where I'm continually convinced my opinions/ideas count for less, so I argue for them harder to try to compensate out of a belief that I have to explain in exact detail every facet of everything.

Heh, the certainty it won't work out is due to knowing the DM's fetishes. Also our dice luck. And we kind of were basically slave labor for Zorella before.

[Haberdashery]

Mmmm, I don't agree with you there, Nai. I don't think Zorella is Hzurr's pet at all. So far, Hzurr has been really good about not favoring any of his NPCs, and we've pretty much had every last say when it comes to them. I think primarily the problem with Zorella is just that she's a succubus, and when using succubi, all the baggage involved with such a well-used and well-stereotyped monster comes with them. I remember when we encountered Aleksie, we absolutely had the final say in whether she lived or died, despite Hzurr having preferred at the moment to keep her alive. Instead, we chose for her to die, and she died.

But personally, the reason that I want to go with option 1, bad ideas aside, is the fact that option 1 provides a very big roleplaying situation. Rather than just bantering with ourselves, or good-aligned NPCs. I find bantering with villains very enjoyable, personally, and I do know that Shep would very much want to speak with the devils, since they seem to have some interest in him, and Shep is on something on a mission of self-discovery.

[Mando Knight]

Portal to Mount Celestia? Escaping to the realms of Bahamut, Moradin, Pelor, and their armies of angels and Good dragons should stem the tide. If all the Hells are breaking loose, then it shouldn't take much more for the gods to unite for a nine-way beatdown to maintain status quo.

Also, did I get to say "I told you so" about this quest yet? Because I think I did say that going this way was a bad idea.

[DSCrankshaw]

I say dinner with the devils offers the most possibilities. Though maybe we can invite them onto our territory, rather than going on to theirs. I'd love to make them an offer they can't refuse.

[Nai_Calus]

Originally Posted by Haberdashery

Mmmm, I don't agree with you there, Nai. I don't think Zorella is Hzurr's pet at all. So far, Hzurr has been really good about not favoring any of his NPCs, and we've pretty much had every last say when it comes to them. I think primarily the problem with Zorella is just that she's a succubus, and when using succubi, all the baggage involved with such a well-used and well-stereotyped monster comes with them. I remember when we encountered Aleksie, we absolutely had the final say in whether she lived or died, despite Hzurr having preferred at the moment to keep her alive. Instead, we chose for her to die, and she died.

I think what gave me the impression was that we had that choice at all. We'd killed her, period, so in my mind that there was a choice meant that Hzurr had come to favor the pair of them, plus he was arguing that he wanted her to live, which is something I've never done with an NPC myself. Much like how we've never had an opportunity to actually do anything about Zorella and have only encountered her in situations where we can't start a fight without being instantly overwhelmed and killed. So there is kind of an impression of 'pet' that comes across, at least to me. I'm not complaining, mind you. I understand the feeling, I've got NPCs of my own I'm really fond of. It's more of a genre savvy thing. 'Guys he likes that NPC, don't mess with it just to be sure', kind of? If I'm making any sense at all?

But personally, the reason that I want to go with option 1, bad ideas aside, is the fact that option 1 provides a very big roleplaying situation. Rather than just bantering with ourselves, or good-aligned NPCs. I find bantering with villains very enjoyable, personally, and I do know that Shep would very much want to speak with the devils, since they seem to have some interest in him, and Shep is on something on a mission of self-discovery.

Fair enough. Part of my objection stems from knowing that it's something Eltain would be, naturally, kind of firmly against. (Violently CG, opposed to this guy's very existence, he's not really in the mood for drinks and dinner) Which means a very boring stuffing him off somewhere to stare at a wall while this happens because he has no skills that would be useful that someone else doesn't have better and he'd just end up being trouble. I don't expect the party to not do something it wants to just because Eltain finds it morally repugnant, heh.

I normally do quite enjoy talking with villains, but fiends of either sort bore me to death because there's absolutely nothing of interest to them for me. They are utterly evil, period, so there's no room at all for the sorts of things that actually interest me with villains. (Like, I find the Prince of Frost really interesting because of his history, where he actually has a reason he turned so bad, and there's a possibility, at least in the official material, that he could be turned from it. Heck, in the official material it notes that he could potentially act as a PC ally in the case of threats to the Feywild as a whole due to being, if evil, at least honorable. There's no such depth or possibility with fiends. They always were evil, always will be evil, and they aren't going to ally with you out of any sort of actual interest in your cause.)

Originally Posted by Mando Knight

Portal to Mount Celestia? Escaping to the realms of Bahamut, Moradin, Pelor, and their armies of angels and Good dragons should stem the tide. If all the Hells are breaking loose, then it shouldn't take much more for the gods to unite for a nine-way beatdown to maintain status quo.

Mmm, Jon mentioned in PM to me once discussing Eltain's ED that even he thought the fiend plot was the most problematic and difficult to tie Eltain to in any way that isn't metagamed because the gods *can't* get involved with the fiends for some reason and thus he'd never get any kind of actual request from Corellon that he do something about it; so it seems unlikely that we'll get any help at all with this. (Which makes it even less likely that there's anything we'll ever be able to do about it; even at L30 4E PCs can't do anything about this sort of thing.)

Also, did I get to say "I told you so" about this quest yet? Because I think I did say that going this way was a bad idea.

I don't think you did. Feel free. I'll even let you say it before Eltain does, since his was mostly about Zyrr's 'plan'.

Also, I apologize for how friggin' crabby I am tonight. My allergies have been murdering me since I got to Portland, and today it's finally morphed from 'stuffed up' to 'Sick'. So far just a bad head cold, but it's working its way to sinus infection and from there likely to bronchitis and it's making me CRANKY GRR STUPID SINUSES I WILL RIP YOU OUT WITH MY BARE HANDS.

[dariathalon]

Originally Posted by Nai_Calus

I normally do quite enjoy talking with villains, but fiends of either sort bore me to death because there's absolutely nothing of interest to them for me. They are utterly evil, period, so there's no room at all for the sorts of things that actually interest me with villains. (Like, I find the Prince of Frost really interesting because of his history, where he actually has a reason he turned so bad, and there's a possibility, at least in the official material, that he could be turned from it. Heck, in the official material it notes that he could potentially act as a PC ally in the case of threats to the Feywild as a whole due to being, if evil, at least honorable. There's no such depth or possibility with fiends. They always were evil, always will be evil, and they aren't going to ally with you out of any sort of actual interest in your cause.)

You're overlooking another avenue for this sort of interaction. Just because they are evil doesn't mean they can't do good. With devil's it can be more difficult to get them to do good, because they just really don't have any desire to do it. You either have to offer them something that they REALLY want or somehow dupe them into it. It can be a lot of fun to trick the bad guy into doing something good. Especially if you get the moment later where the bad guy realizes that you've outwitted them and there is little they can do about it.

Originally Posted by Nai_Calus

Also, I apologize for how friggin' crabby I am tonight. My allergies have been murdering me since I got to Portland, and today it's finally morphed from 'stuffed up' to 'Sick'. So far just a bad head cold, but it's working its way to sinus infection and from there likely to bronchitis and it's making me CRANKY GRR STUPID SINUSES I WILL RIP YOU OUT WITH MY BARE HANDS.

I understand this. I HATE allergies. I recommend a nice hot shower. Let the hot water wash down over your face and sinuses then breath in as much of the hot humid air as you can. It usually helps me some.

[Mando Knight]

Originally Posted by Nai_Calus

Mmm, Jon mentioned in PM to me once discussing Eltain's ED that even he thought the fiend plot was the most problematic and difficult to tie Eltain to in any way that isn't metagamed because the gods *can't* get involved with the fiends for some reason and thus he'd never get any kind of actual request from Corellon that he do something about it; so it seems unlikely that we'll get any help at all with this. (Which makes it even less likely that there's anything we'll ever be able to do about it; even at L30 4E PCs can't do anything about this sort of thing.)

What makes that immutable? How would we know that the gods can't do anything when devils march right across their doorstep?

[Orsik Vondal]

Actually, Nai, Asmodeus was once an angel that fought in the Dawn War with the gods. Thinking his master was being to passive in the whole affair, he killed him to take his power and position. Before the unnamed god died, though, he cursed Asmodeus and his followers turning them into the distorted figures of devils you see today. They weren't always evil. But after the first betrayal they slowly became the evil creatures they are. I still think the Hells can be "saved" in a way. And if they are working WITH demons, then something is definitely wrong.

[Nai_Calus]

I go off what the DM says. We do not slavishly adhere to the official lore here. For example, Corellon in this campaign is Good-aligned. See also how in this campaign the PoF is pretty much evil period because I'm the only one with any interest in trying to redeem him, so while it's in official lore a thing that can potentially happen, here it's a thing that cannot happen period.(Which will not stop Eltain from trying, because he doesn't know how quickly and utterly it got dismissed and shut down when it got proposed, due to not being able to read the OOC thread since he's a fictional character in a game)

Besides, by official lore, Graz'zt was a devil at one point but got corrupted by the Abyss.

And yeah, anyone who's going to betray his god for power was evil to begin with, sorry. Devils are evil, period.

[Hzurr]

A few quick points:

The current vote (as I see it)

Orsik - Dinner
Haberdashery - Dinner
Nai - escape or plan C/D
Dariathalon - Dinner if we can't come up with a better plan
Mando Knight - Get out of here and report to the gods what's going on
Toric - Dinner
DSC - Dinner

So it looks like dinner is the strong contender, unless someone comes up with an off the wall brilliant plan.

Now, onto some issues that have been brought up

1) Devils - I started out this adventure scenario with a strong Drow push (which is where I thought we were going to be doing), and that one got pushed aside. Until you guys jumped on the spelljammer, I didn't know that devils were going to be involved at all during this bit. I had stuff they'd be doing in the background, but I didn't really plan any of this. But hey, that's the advantage of PbP! I'll sit here and throw out plot threads all day (something that actually caused issues at the beginning of this part of the adventure) but I have no idea which ones y'all will bite at. This could have very easily been an adventure in the elemental chaos, or fighting in the feywild.

2) Zorella - don't confuse an intelligent NPC with a pet NPC. If it ever came to a fair fight, y'all would destroy her. Naturally, she's going to avoid approaching you in anything resembling a fair fight. Fighting you isn't going to work, so she'll instead try and pay others to kill you or buy you as a slave and send you to die in an arena. It's just a tactic that a physically weaker opponent would use. If you guys ever trick her and get her away from her bodyguards and the bulk of the fiendish army, you could kill her ridiculously fast (and Zyrr/Eltain have already proven she's capable of being deceived/manipulated)

3) Things I've said in PMs/in the past - Everything I say is true at the moment I say it. That doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. The role of the other gods in this whole thing is completely different now than it was a year ago in game (or even 2 months ago in game), because events have changed (largely due to PC action). I never know what y'all are going to do, so things that may be true at one point in the game can get altered. So what Corellon may or may not have done a month ago could be completely changed. Nothing is set in stone.

4) The devils/PoF/evilness - Rather than saying "The devils are always evil" what would be more accurate is to say "the devils will always act in their own self interest." A devil doesn't want to see the world fall under the sway of someone like Vecna, so they may oppose cultists of Vecna. The devils don't want the demons to take over the cosmos, so they'll fight demons. Are devils evil? Yes. That doesn't mean they can't be used for good causes.

As for the Prince of Frost, in the current situation (a hostile takeover of the Feywild), he's pretty evil. But in a situation of, say, a drow or Fomorian invasion of the Feywild, he'd side with the other Sidhe Lords against the drow in a second. He's got his agenda, which falls into the "evil" category, that doesn't mean everything he's going to do will be evil. Now, whether or not he can be made to see the error of his ways and repent is a different story entirely (or whether or not he even deserves to have repentance after what he's done). But again, this has to be balanced against what the party feels. Eltain wants the PoF to have a chance of redemption, but Aramil (whose father was poisoned and estate was razed) and Pavick (whose people were used as slave labor) may not want to pursue this.

--------------------------------------------

Basically, here's what it boils down to: what the party wants and what works best for the story is what will happen. If the party suddenly decides that they want to work with the Prince of Frost to fight drow or devils or whatever, then we'll have an awesome time rollplaying out the peace negotiation and seeing what happens. If the party wants to sit down to a dinner with an archduke of hell and see if they can come to some sort of agreement that may be beneficial for that Archduke while still making the multiverse a better place, that's fine too.

------------------------

So, this was long and meandering and answering a lot of things that were discussed, but in the end a decision needs to be made about what to do in-game. The majority of the party seems to want the dinner, so I'd suggest going with that (although given Asheroth's current state, I don't think it should be him).