Seriously how would the dark one be able to control the snarl. If it got to that point couldn't the gods simply destroy the world then promptly flee then recreate a new world sealing the snarl while making sure that the dark one is dead. Also making sure that all new gods similar to the dark one killed on sight.
It is doubtful that the Gods can destroy the world in less than a minute. It is known that the Snarl can destroy the gods in less time than that, and the ritual allows the Dark One to change where the exit to the Snarls prison leads.
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The Plan doesn't give the Dark One control of the Snarl, it gives him control over what dimension the Gates open up into.
But, you know, it kinda wouldn't surprise me if the Plan did represent some level of risk to the Dark One anyway. In which case it's possible he's mostly after leverage. The Dark One might just be betting on it making more sense for the gods to acquiesce to his demands rather than to "force" him to set off the cosmic nuclear arsenal, even though he doesn't entirely want to. For him to get what he wants, the other gods only have to believe he'd do it, and of course the Dark One's pursuit of the Gates to the potential detriment of everyone on the planet kinda does paint him as a guy willing to go all out, since he has less to lose. Would you want to call his bluff?
If the dark one is trying to use the snarl as leverage wouldn't tge gods know that the snarl can't be controlled and the threat is pointless as the dark one is not suicidal enough to try to control the snarl seeing as the snarl permently destroys. Also consider the fact that the gods knew that the dark one knew of the snarl and possibly prepared in advance to kill the dark one. Seeing as none of the other gods are suicidal enough to try to control the snarl.
If the dark one is trying to use the snarl as leverage wouldn't tge gods know that the snarl can't be controlled and the threat is pointless as the dark one is not suicidal enough to try to control the snarl seeing as the snarl permently destroys. Also consider the fact that the gods knew that the dark one knew of the snarl and possibly prepared in advance to kill the dark one. Seeing as none of the other gods are suicidal enough to try to control the snarl.
If the gods thought the Plan did not enable any degree of control whatsoever, they would not be commanding their followers to destroy the Gates if it came down to a choice between letting a Gate be blown up or to fall into Team Evil's hands. There is a known quantifiable risk in blowing the Gates up, but letting TE get their hands on one is somehow worse, in their eyes.
The Dark One's Plan will give him some control over the Snarl at least -- or at least, by all evidence, that is what the other gods believe (and we at home have no particular reason to disbelieve).
Being able to control where the "holes" in the Snarl's prison go is a pretty powerful tool. It's certainly not suicidal, because you just make sure you don't move the hole anywhere near your own territory! Take out a couple of the other gods, then negotiate with the power of them knowing you can do that as you like; that's the whole point of the plan.
The Dark One doesn't want to fully release the snarl.
He wants to open a gate in Odin's throne room, right under his butt and have the snarl reach out and claw the old man to death before making the gate vanish again.
Stuff like that.
If the other gods then go and try to remake the prison, he can unleash him on them.
That is all under the assumption that what the Dark One told Redcloak is correct. In fact my personal suspicion is that it is not, and that the Dark One in fact has a far more nefarious plan in mind - what exactly I don't know.
It might eventually be why Redcloak turns away from him, when he learns that truth.
Also the other gods don't know about the Plan.
And the "kill everyone who is a threat to the gate" crusade was instigated by Soon Kim and the Saphire Guard paladins, not the gods.
Its highly unlikely that the Dark ones plan stops at just merely moving the prison.
The gods have well...Godly power. The second he moves the prison, they just seal it up like their mortal servants did.
And then they Rush the dark one and murderkill him.
There is more going on.
Ummm, if the Gods COULD seal the rifts, they would have already done it. The ritual allows the Dark One to alter where the rifts "open" and since the rifts represent actual tears in the fabric of the strands of creation the gods literally CAN'T just fix them, "Godly Power" or no.
The Gods didn't create* the world, why presume they could repair it?
* Well, ok, but only in the sense that they made the world. The building blocks they used were already present, they just arranged them. Sort of like that Lego Tie Fighter was created by you, but the legos weren't
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There's also the problem of what has become of the Snarl. When Soon Kim and Mijing found the first rift, we are shown a claw running her through as if she were some fragile mortal meatbag. Which she was.
I am aware that the Snarl has demonstrated it can do the same to gods.
When Blackwing stares into the now HUGE rift, it sees a planet, and a distinct lack of Snarl-claws trying to (let alone succeeding to) rip everything apart. Seeing how the rift is now several hundred metres long and almost half as wide, Xykon and at least some of Gobbotopia's population will have probably seen it as well.
OFC the Snarl could be making an illusion, but it doesn't seem to need such flippantry, or be patient enough to come up with it.
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And the "kill everyone who is a threat to the gate" crusade was instigated by Soon Kim and the Saphire Guard paladins, not the gods.
Two things. One: if there were no way the Dark One could gain any material advantage whatsoever in controlling a Gate, and the gods knew this, it raises the question of why it hasn't been made clear to the folk on the mortal plane, who have adopted a "destruction before capture" attitude that is entirely counter-productive.
Two: Soon Kim kicked off the crusades, but in War and XPs, they're referred to as having been divinely sanctioned by the 12 gods, making the hobgoblin invasion of Azure City karmic on an outright divine level. Literally: "The 12 gods may have sanctioned the paladins' massacres, but even they can't stop karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while."
The simplest explanation favors the Dark One's Plan being feared by them.
Two: Soon Kim kicked off the crusades, but in War and XPs, they're referred to as having been divinely sanctioned by the 12 gods, making the hobgoblin invasion of Azure City karmic on an outright divine level. Literally: "The 12 gods may have sanctioned the paladins' massacres, but even they can't stop karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while."
I think the problem here may be that the author is trying to write a story that revolves around grey-and-fuzzy-morality in the context of an RPG system that presupposes the existence of some very-non-grey-and-fuzzy moral standards.
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Originally Posted by about50heavies
Seriously how would the dark one be able to control the snarl. If it got to that point couldn't the gods simply destroy the world then promptly flee then recreate a new world sealing the snarl while making sure that the dark one is dead. Also making sure that all new gods similar to the dark one killed on sight.
Here's a much better question: Given that Redcloak has already more-or-less accomplished his original goal of securing the goblinoid peoples a reasonably prosperous kingdom on an equal footing with the other humanoid species, why is he still interested in pursuing this extremely risky and over-elaborate master-plan?
The gods could easily know of the plan before the present by spying on the dark ones disciples because at least the good aligned gods wanted to stop the dark ones objectives and kill him. Even the evil aligned gods know that trying to control the snarl is a stupid idea.
I think that Redcloak's original attitude was that he/the goblins/the dark one had 'nothing to lose'. Even in the worst-case scenario, the world would simply be re-created, and could hardly turn out worse than before from their perspective. Even if the dark one might be killed by the snarl himself, given that he's in the minority among the other pantheons, random casualties still work out to his advantage, and he may be willing to accept the risk of personal annihilation for that purpose.
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Originally Posted by B. Dandelion
Two things. One: if there were no way the Dark One could gain any material advantage whatsoever in controlling a Gate, and the gods knew this, it raises the question of why it hasn't been made clear to the folk on the mortal plane, who have adopted a "destruction before capture" attitude that is entirely counter-productive.
Well... not entirely. In theory it's a cost-benefit analysis WRT the probability that a given gate's destruction would actually trigger the apocalypse versus the likely reduction in quality-of-living that would result if the planet were ground under the heel of a highly unpleasant BBEG.
Well... not entirely. In theory it's a cost-benefit analysis WRT the probability that a given gate's destruction would actually trigger the apocalypse versus the likely reduction in quality-of-living that would result if the planet were ground under the heel of a highly unpleasant BBEG.
You're violently agreeing with my point. By destroying the Gates rather than allow them to be seized, humans are behaving as though seizing a Gate will grant the Dark One some advantage, which they reason is better offset by destroying the Gates instead. The OP argues there is zero advantage in seizing a Gate, and that the gods know this.
Two things. One: if there were no way the Dark One could gain any material advantage whatsoever in controlling a Gate, and the gods knew this, it raises the question of why it hasn't been made clear to the folk on the mortal plane, who have adopted a "destruction before capture" attitude that is entirely counter-productive.
It's quite possible that the gods DON'T know it, at least not 100%.
They may believe it, but at the same time they're dealing with the ONE THING that can kill them and that they most likely have a rather irrational fear of. Those things tend to cause you to not act completely rational.
They might figure "If anyone can control the gates it's screwed up for us. If too many gates get destroyed... ok that means the planet is screwed but at least not us and we start over. So let them try to figure it out and destroying gates is better than not. For us anyway"
Also I'm not sure if the Crayon-info is actually "Word of God" type of information or simply what the Order of the Scribble believed. It says "Ok so Soon Kim learned that the gods could remake the prison", but who did they learn it from? The gods themselves? Possible. Or was it just something that Dorukan and Lirian came up with?
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Two: Soon Kim kicked off the crusades, but in War and XPs, they're referred to as having been divinely sanctioned by the 12 gods, making the hobgoblin invasion of Azure City karmic on an outright divine level. Literally: "The 12 gods may have sanctioned the paladins' massacres, but even they can't stop karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while."
The simplest explanation favors the Dark One's Plan being feared by them.
I don't have the book, so unless it's in the online comic I don't know about it.
Is it simply a "the 12 gods sanctioned it because the paladins didn't fall" kind of deal or did they actually come down and said "Ok, so they try to unleash that thing, kill them all"?
Is it simply a "the 12 gods sanctioned it because the paladins didn't fall" kind of deal or did they actually come down and said "Ok, so they try to unleash that thing, kill them all"?
I think the latter. In an online post (you might not want to read if you haven't read SoD, there are spoilers) he refers to the Paladin's massacres as "god-given orders," which to me says.... they were god-given orders, and not just something they were willing to look the other way at.
As to the other point, I wasn't trying to say there could not BE any possible resolution to the issue of "the gods know possessing a Gate is in fact 100% useless, but the gods' followers are not acting as though they know this". I was simply pointing out that the interpretation requires us to resolve the discrepancy, when the alternative explanation, "possessing a Gate does in fact confer an advantage on the Dark One", is already consistent with everything we've seen so far.
If the gods just aren't 100% sure on the issue, than the actual truth of the situation becomes somewhat academic, because the point of the exercise was to gain leverage. If they think it might confer an advantage on the Dark One, for the purposes of negotiation it does, unless they call his bluff.
Just jumping in to note that it's not certain that the other gods even could kill The Dark One. It may not work like that in this setting. The only thing we know for sure that can kill a god is the Snarl. So any theory starting out with "why don't the other gods just kill The Dark One" is already making a huge assumption about what's possible.
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Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
You're violently agreeing with my point. By destroying the Gates rather than allow them to be seized, humans are behaving as though seizing a Gate will grant the Dark One some advantage, which they reason is better offset by destroying the Gates instead. The OP argues there is zero advantage in seizing a Gate, and that the gods know this.
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Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye
Just jumping in to note that it's not certain that the other gods even could kill The Dark One. It may not work like that in this setting. The only thing we know for sure that can kill a god is the Snarl. So any theory starting out with "why don't the other gods just kill The Dark One" is already making a huge assumption about what's possible.
The fact that the good aligned gods wanted to kill the dark one implies that gods can be killed by other gods.
"...may be willing to...?" He's working with Xykon. Accepting the risk of personal annihilation is his daily routine.
I was referring to the Dark One WRT releasing the snarl, not to Redcloak.
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Originally Posted by B. Dandelion
You're violently agreeing with my point. By destroying the Gates rather than allow them to be seized, humans are behaving as though seizing a Gate will grant the Dark One some advantage, which they reason is better offset by destroying the Gates instead. The OP argues there is zero advantage in seizing a Gate, and that the gods know this.
The goal of most threats is that the other side will give in, not that you will have to carry out the threat.
I suspect that the basic plan hinges on the Dark One's belief that the other gods' approach will be, "Dude, don't taunt the guy who can release the god-killing abomination."
The fact that the good aligned gods wanted to kill the dark one implies that gods can be killed by other gods.
Did they? Ah, I don't remember that. Which strip and/or book was that stated in?
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"Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers
"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
Speaking of the Plan being possibly flawed (for reasons beyond the fact that the Gates keep getting blown up), I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to how it might interact with some of the information Shojo gives in 275...
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Originally Posted by Shojo
The gods had been clever and built their planet to exist in multiple coterminous dimensions, thus blocking the only vibrational frequencies the Snarl could have used to escape its cell.
In all honesty, I find Haley's reaction to that line more comprehensible than the line itself. But if the Plan opens a Gate out into a throne room, do they exist in "multiple coterminous dimensions", and if not, would unleashing the Snarl into one give it a back door to escape completely?
If the Dark One can't control it and the Snarl destroys creation in a freak accident, the Dark One will likely still be there when a new world is built, like the last, to cage the Snarl again. All goblinoids will have been undone, but they can be recreated. The next time, the Dark One will be there from the start, and can prevent the good gods from dooming the goblinoids to being XP fodder living on inhospitable territory.
The Dark One is playing all or nothing with this, and he's definitely not bluffing. He really has nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Part of me hopes those gobbies get what they want.
...although Gobbotopia now exists. A city-state with a heroic history (custom-edited) and proud heritage. That does throw a wrench in the works.
Xykon might end up subverting everything for his purposes. The Dark One and Redcloak kinda got what they were after anyway.
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If the Dark One can't control it and the Snarl destroys creation in a freak accident, the Dark One will likely still be there when a new world is built, like the last, to cage the Snarl again. All goblinoids will have been undone, but they can be recreated. The next time, the Dark One will be there from the start, and can prevent the good gods from dooming the goblinoids to being XP fodder living on inhospitable territory.
The Dark One is playing all or nothing with this, and he's definitely not bluffing. He really has nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Part of me hopes those gobbies get what they want.
...although Gobbotopia now exists. A city-state with a heroic history (custom-edited) and proud heritage. That does throw a wrench in the works.
Xykon might end up subverting everything for his purposes. The Dark One and Redcloak kinda got what they were after anyway.
You do know that the gods will be most likely extremely enraged at the dark one and probably kill him and if the snarl escapes there is a good chance of the dark one dying. Therefore the goblins will be in the same place as exp fodder and the gods will learn to kill on sight any new gods similar to the dark one
You do know that the gods will be most likely extremely enraged at the dark one and probably kill him and if the snarl escapes there is a good chance of the dark one dying. Therefore the goblins will be in the same place as exp fodder and the gods will learn to kill on sight any new gods similar to the dark one
Or maybe they'll realize that their mistake was that they were such huge jerks in the first place, all the gods will join up together and defeat the Snarl once and for all, they'll all create a new world that's perfect for everybody, and everything will be all hugs and rainbows forever.
Really, it could go either way.
__________________
"Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers
"What you must learn is that these rules are no different than the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken." - Morpheus, The Matrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krellen
Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.
I still have this sneaky suspicion that the dark one is really, somehow, an avatar of the snarl. Would kinda explain his colors that are somewhat similar to the snarl, and how this one particular goblin that also just happened to be violet also ascended to godhood. All in all, all the known history and supposed motives we hear of to make goblin kind equal could all just be a front.
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What is the point of redcloak's plan
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