Do what I do. Scout on 9. If you don't see cheese, 13 Hatch, 15 pool. You will get out 4 lings just as a 13 gas, 13 pool build can put 4 lings at your base. This leaves you defensive in the early game, but it gets you that first expo and probably an economic edge since you can use spines to fight your battles and drone up.
Sure. Here's me doing it right and here's me doing it wrong. Note that one of the things I am currently working on in ZvZ is knowing when to drone hard and when to build units.
Also, BobVosh is evil for introducing me to Squadron Tower Defense.
Also, BobVosh is evil for introducing me to Squadron Tower Defense.
Oh surely you can quit anytime you want...
muwhahahahhahahahaah
Barcraft last night was a ton of fun. I went there for 3 hours, 8 hours later I actually left the bar. I had actually planned on coming back for this, but ya that didn't happen.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabenson
Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.
Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.
Imi and I keep getting rushed, it pisses us off.. She goes random so if she's Toss she goes Zealots/DT, if she's Terran she goes M+M+Tanks, if she's Zerg she goes Roaches.
But I always go Stalkers+Colossi. Which works if we don't get rushed. Gahhhhhh. :/
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Known as Darth Equine in LGBTitP
Avatar by me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elemental
Ahh Kyth'ra... A knight of such honour and virtue, not to mention suppressed homicidal rage.
Yes, our Barcraft was on Sunday. And what a show.
DT's by Huk was awesome, at least it was the first few times it worked.
Marineking, the King of Marines, won by, you guessed it, spamming Marines. Well, that and demonstrating some awesome control over said Marines. And that Factory drop to cut off the Infestors and go wreck a hatchery? Oh wow, awesome move.
In fact, I'll just say it straight up. I can't wait for this weeks edition of APM on gamebreaker.tv to see those highlights again.
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~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddragon1
If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
Imi and I keep getting rushed, it pisses us off.. She goes random so if she's Toss she goes Zealots/DT, if she's Terran she goes M+M+Tanks, if she's Zerg she goes Roaches.
But I always go Stalkers+Colossi. Which works if we don't get rushed. Gahhhhhh. :/
What league are you and are you guys 2v2 partners? If so, Dark Memnarch and I can help you make an "Anti-rush" start without changing too much.
Imi and I keep getting rushed, it pisses us off.. She goes random so if she's Toss she goes Zealots/DT, if she's Terran she goes M+M+Tanks, if she's Zerg she goes Roaches.
But I always go Stalkers+Colossi. Which works if we don't get rushed. Gahhhhhh. :/
In 2v2, what would be a rush in a 1v1 game is actually typical strategy. You'll see stuff like stalker/hellion, ling/hellion, ling/stalker, and so on. They'll do stuff that would normally torpedo an economy so they can put on so much pressure early on to kill you unless you also torpedoed your economy.
Zerg can't really hide their tech ever without schenanigans. One scan of the main will usually tell you everything you need to know about a Zerg's tech choices, with maybe another at the nat to confirm.
Zerg, however, just don't care. We kill you anyway.
Zerg can't really hide their tech ever without schenanigans. One scan of the main will usually tell you everything you need to know about a Zerg's tech choices, with maybe another at the nat to confirm.
Zerg, however, just don't care. We kill you anyway.
True though that may be, I still resent the implication made by the resident dinosaur that the other races -rely- on hiding tech. It is entirely possible to play an effective game without trying to be shenanigans-y and hiding what you're doing. Admittedly, hiding what you're doing is generally speaking a better option unless you're planning to try to push your opponent down a tech path you can deal with easier (open HT, transition to colossi when you see ghosts, or some such), but it's hardly a requirement.
Also: Remember that game I said I was gonna post before, with the whole me loving the new phoenix? Here it is.
And for the wait, have another! I was quite happy about my early attacking, for what little it did, if not just for keeping me -really- up on the worker game.
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Well, as you point out, if you can do even the smallest amount of deception without changing how your build works, you should do it. A Terran or Toss can and do spread important tech buildings across their main and natural, the whole area of it. The Twilight Council might be off in the boondocks of their base, next to that pylon they built in the smoke to watch for drops, while they have the robo nestled in their natural. One scan can't catch all that. Two scans isn't guaranteed to spot it.
For a zerg to do the equivalent, we have to put an overlord over there, have it barf creep, and then never move it for the rest of the game or let it die. Our tech structures, because we only build one of them ever, are as vulnerable to sniping as the Robotics Support Bay. Putting something like that out where killing one overlord will eventually destroy the building is just asking to get it dropped.
Well, as you point out, if you can do even the smallest amount of deception without changing how your build works, you should do it. A Terran or Toss can and do spread important tech buildings across their main and natural, the whole area of it. The Twilight Council might be off in the boondocks of their base, next to that pylon they built in the smoke to watch for drops, while they have the robo nestled in their natural. One scan can't catch all that. Two scans isn't guaranteed to spot it.
For a zerg to do the equivalent, we have to put an overlord over there, have it barf creep, and then never move it for the rest of the game or let it die. Our tech structures, because we only build one of them ever, are as vulnerable to sniping as the Robotics Support Bay. Putting something like that out where killing one overlord will eventually destroy the building is just asking to get it dropped.
Alternatively, you could go way far out of your way and just creepspread all the way to the boonies of the map. That said, while all of this is entirely true, I still stand by the point that it's not like T or Z -need- to hide, it's just -better- to hide. Not that this is a good or bad thing, just that it is.
Also, I'll say it balances out anyway. What zerg loses in hiding information it makes up for in getting information. So many practically free ways to get information as a zerg, probably my favorite thing about the race.
Is it sad that my favorite parts of everything but toss is about information gathering? Scans and creep and overlords, oh my!
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Alternatively, you could go way far out of your way and just creepspread all the way to the boonies of the map. That said, while all of this is entirely true, I still stand by the point that it's not like T or Z -need- to hide, it's just -better- to hide. Not that this is a good or bad thing, just that it is.
Also, I'll say it balances out anyway. What zerg loses in hiding information it makes up for in getting information. So many practically free ways to get information as a zerg, probably my favorite thing about the race.
Is it sad that my favorite parts of everything but toss is about information gathering? Scans and creep and overlords, oh my!
Sacrificing and overlord to see into your opponents base is something zerg hates to do, even if it must be done. That's 100 minerals for the hope of seeing what your opponent is up to.
Now, holding every Xel'naga and a ling at every expansion, that is detailed informtion. Its just, "Oh look, a delicious army is moving into the middle of the map." Swarm on all sides, my friend. Swarm on all sides. Or just counter-attack the main. In all likely-hood, zerg will delaying your army longer then you can delay the zerg army if its a base trade, because by then they have more bases.
On most maps, if the Terrat/Toss is smart, you simply won't get enough information with a sacrificial overlord. You need to have a good knowledge of builds, good scouting on the front and a sacrificed overlord to know what they are getting (and I still keep getting surprised).
For example, a few games ago I scouted a Terran. The front showed me a factory with a reactor, a building starport and a barracks building a techlab. The overlord didnt get far enough to see both gas.
So I expect a hellion push into banshees. Sadly I did not see the second barracks with a tech lab, and it was a hellion/marauder push timing. I was preparing for banshees while keeping my front secure with 3 spines.
Turns out lings are not very good at dealing with Marauders and Hellions.
Sacrificing and overlord to see into your opponents base is something zerg hates to do, even if it must be done. That's 100 minerals for the hope of seeing what your opponent is up to.
Now, holding every Xel'naga and a ling at every expansion, that is detailed informtion. Its just, "Oh look, a delicious army is moving into the middle of the map." Swarm on all sides, my friend. Swarm on all sides. Or just counter-attack the main. In all likely-hood, zerg will delaying your army longer then you can delay the zerg army if its a base trade, because by then they have more bases.
I was more thinking just overlords spread everywhere on the map more than saccing an overlord. Now I'm suddenly aware of drops and air shenaniganry even if they avoid the towers as well! between that, creep, and lings being possibly the best scout unit ever is where I was coming from. And if I want info on the base I'd rather just drop a changeling. Not hard to get in and out, and that'll get me a good deal of info. And thinking about it, even saccing an ovie is better than losing an obs trying to scout a base.
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Zerg can't really hide their tech ever without schenanigans. One scan of the main will usually tell you everything you need to know about a Zerg's tech choices, with maybe another at the nat to confirm.
Zerg, however, just don't care. We kill you anyway.
So you say getting a lair and building overlords is schenanigans? OR building a queen for spreading creep?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyeudo
Well, as you point out, if you can do even the smallest amount of deception without changing how your build works, you should do it. A Terran or Toss can and do spread important tech buildings across their main and natural, the whole area of it. The Twilight Council might be off in the boondocks of their base, next to that pylon they built in the smoke to watch for drops, while they have the robo nestled in their natural. One scan can't catch all that. Two scans isn't guaranteed to spot it.
For a zerg to do the equivalent, we have to put an overlord over there, have it barf creep, and then never move it for the rest of the game or let it die. Our tech structures, because we only build one of them ever, are as vulnerable to sniping as the Robotics Support Bay. Putting something like that out where killing one overlord will eventually destroy the building is just asking to get it dropped.
You completely forgot about creep tumors, you should probably start using those they are really helpful.
So lets compare protoss to zerg on terms of hiding tech, to hide your tech as zerg you either have to build a queen or build overlords and have lair, WHAT ZERGS DO THAT?!?! and then move the creep/overlord to wherever you want to hide the tech. To do that as protoss you have to build a pylon(same cost as an overlord, and it can't move) and then build the tech structure there. If something goes wrong and your hidden tech is scouted, as zerg you can move the overlord away and save 100 minerals, as protoss you lose the tech cost, AND the cost of the pylon. So clearly zerg is better at hiding tech then protoss.
And anyways zerg has an even better benefit of not having its production ability tied directly to its tech structures, so you can know exactly what zerg is able to build but not counter it. They can have a spawning pool, a roach warren a spire and an infestor pit. and there are several things they can be going, and they can change between them whenver they want, but for a protoss to switch from robo to stargate they have to build 2-4 production buildings to get out a decent number of them quickly. So even if zerg couldn't hide their tech they just from how their production works have some level of hiding what they are going to build, even if all of their tech is scouted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverraptor
Zerg. Its the only true "honest" race that doesn't rely on hiding your tech.
None of the races rely on hiding tech. Just because you put something in the middle of your base so that it is harder to be scouted by an overlord doesn't mean that the entire strategy is based around it not being scouted. If you can make anything harder for your opponent for no extra cost why don't you? Speaking to you zergs why don't you put a creep tumor down on the edge of your base that will spread creep to your natural and extend the creep in your base so that you can put buildings along the edges more easily?
Speaking to you zergs why don't you put a creep tumor down on the edge of your base that will spread creep to your natural and extend the creep in your base so that you can put buildings along the edges more easily?
Because doing so is like painting a target on it. If my roach warren goes down to a drop or a void ray, that's a full minute where I can't build roaches. It isn't like losing a starport or a stargate, where you lose one or two cycles of production from one building. In ways you lose all your cycles of production. Yes, you emergency switch to lings or hydras or infestors or whatever, but you built that structure because you decided that having that type of unit was important to your army composition. It would be like suddenly not being able to build marauders against a roaching player.
Because doing so is like painting a target on it. If my roach warren goes down to a drop or a void ray, that's a full minute where I can't build roaches. It isn't like losing a starport or a stargate, where you lose one or two cycles of production from one building. In ways you lose all your cycles of production. Yes, you emergency switch to lings or hydras or infestors or whatever, but you built that structure because you decided that having that type of unit was important to your army composition. It would be like suddenly not being able to build marauders against a roaching player.
That's a full minute you can't build roaches, but once that warren drops, you're able to instantly poop out 7 or more roaches per hatch. Your cycle isn't entirely lost unless you use your larvae on other units, and depending on the build you're using, you may not even be behind at all unless they take out more than one building. If you take out my stargate, I can never get that time back for that one gate, and (if memory serves me right) I lose the resources on the unit in production. It ends up balancing out, in that the zerg loses the few larvae that would be naturally produced while stockpiling.
Heck, I'd say losing the tech structure for zerg is more like getting artosis pylon'd or getting your addon sniped. You lose some functionality, but it's more a delay than an outright loss. Still hurts, but it's a setback instead of a reset.
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The problem is that zerg has to reinforce all the time. You can never do stand up fights against anything, except in the very late game with broodlords.
Not building roaches for a full minute is simply devastating, unless you were far ahead. Its akin to taking out a cybercore when you have to defend against mutas.
Umm...Every race has to reinforce constantly unless they're terribly far ahead, that's not really race-specific. If I start getting aggressive with a 6-7 gate push and don't have a pylon up at their base, I won't reinforce enough to deal with defenses. If in the lategame I run into a blob o' army, I'm hosed unless I recover right away, because -they're doing the same thing-. Zerg may need higher numbers, but they can also burst-replenish their army a whole heck of a lot faster anyway. And I still don't believe that the zerg can never win stand up fights ever until BL. infestors do a great job with that via fungal. Ultras are a pain in the ass unless the other side is well prepared, and unless their scouting happens at just the right time, a sudden surprise of 7 ultras that weren't there a minute ago isn't that hard to pull off.
Actually, I think that's the real zerg "hidden tech" thing. It's not hiding the building, it's that they don't need to have that building for long before it makes a huge change in their army comp. It takes forever for me to get a notable amount of...well, anything but templar tech after getting its associated tech structure. In the time it takes for me to get a robo and get, say, three immortals, that would be the equivalent of dropping a hydra den and getting, say, 21 hydras. I know, I know, "but you've also got gateways", but I can't repurpose those into getting immortals if that's what I need. It's the 2 minutes where you don't see their base or army and suddenly it's entirely different that is the zerg hidden tech.
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You said you can't keep pushing if you lose your forward pylon; Imagine all your gates were on a single pylon, that pylon was destroyed and fresh units could come in at 90s (building build time + unit production time) at the soonest.
And at the same time you are fighting a battle. Remember this is zerg, we can't really sit in a base and defend from there. Tech switching is very difficult (read ineffective) due to lack of upgrades for your new units.
You said you can't keep pushing if you lose your forward pylon; Imagine all your gates were on a single pylon, that pylon was destroyed and fresh units could come in at 90s (building build time + unit production time) at the soonest.
And at the same time you are fighting a battle. Remember this is zerg, we can't really sit in a base and defend from there. Tech switching is very difficult (read ineffective) due to lack of upgrades for your new units.
Tech switching is difficult for all races. In fact, I found tech switching easier as zerg than the other races. Terran and protoss has to make certain builds to make certain units and multiples of that building. If you suddenly need a tech change, you need to build multiples of the othe building asap.
Zerg just needs to build 1 building and wait 1 production cycle.
You said you can't keep pushing if you lose your forward pylon; Imagine all your gates were on a single pylon, that pylon was destroyed and fresh units could come in at 90s (building build time + unit production time) at the soonest.
And at the same time you are fighting a battle. Remember this is zerg, we can't really sit in a base and defend from there. Tech switching is very difficult (read ineffective) due to lack of upgrades for your new units.
Losing all those gates at once is more like losing a hatch than anything: I really can't build anything anymore until replaced. Which is why nobody in their right mind builds one pylon for their buildings if possible. And either way, it's not really a perfect comparison. And that's -all- tangential to the point I was really getting to, which was the "zerg hidden tech".
Oh yea, and zerg tech swapping is vastly easier than it is for any other race, as silverraptor points out. If you tech swap to let's say corruptor, to make it take a nice long time, you have to drop the spire, and then poop out 7 corruptors (if you're one-basing.) If I need to tech swap to voids, I have to drop two or three stargates, and make one at a time from each. It takes a whoooooole lot longer. If I'm swapping to stalker vs your roach, you "need" speed (read: it makes the unit a hell of a lot better but without it the unit is still viable) to my "needing" blink (see: the same thing I just said). For terran? It's arguably even worse, as they need more upgrades in general, have to get addons if they don't have them anyway (not a huge issue for most builds admittedly), and they don't have -any- "suddenly I have an army" mechanic that the other races have (protoss with warpgate, zerg with just being zerg.)
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Note this is not a whine how weak zerg is, I am quite happy with the balance of the races.
Yeah but other races units are a whole lot better per food then zerg units are. Lets take a example. PvZ. Zerg is mostly going roach/hydra with corruptors vs gatewayball with collosus. Toss' takes down the roach warren with a drop and attacks. Lets say the zerg hold off the first push (assuming he is already maxed on his roaches). As a zerg you can now build 3 units:
- zerglins: they maybe have 1 armor upgrade and 0 melee upgrades. They die horribly to zealots/sentries/collosus
- hydras: their upgrades are good, but without roaches to tank, they die horribly
- corruptors: yeah they are great but they don't shoot down which kind of makes them pointless
- mutalisks: if you don't have a big ball already, getting 10-20 out now won't help, especially if you are expecting another push.
Basically you really dont have a choice of what to build; anything you do build will push you even farther behind.
My point is that if a zerg loses a critical building it is a lot harder to get back from that then for the other races. So if a zerg hides tech, and its discovered (and killed) he loses much more then the other races do.
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