Musings on Language #2

[Yora]

Hökern mostly means selling, but with the implication of getting rid of low-quality stock, though I think that's probably a more recent development.
But the words all come from the same root for trading.

[dehro]

so I'm watching this here anime, subbed in english. half the fun I'm having is because of the english words I recognize being spoken..well. words that were originally english. I'm actually surprised by the sheer nr of these words that I'm pretty sure must have some correspondent in japanese too.

[Yora]

I assume you're a native English speaker?

I only know for sure about German and Japanese, but I think almost everywhere where English is a second language, you'll have a lot of use of English terms instead of native ones because it's cooler.
Like white kids talking like gangstas! We just use as much english words as we can cram into the sentence.

In German you obviously have it when talking about electronics, because new developments take place internationally and tech sawy people who introduce it to the public no longer care to translate the terms they've been using for months or years.

We still do have Tastatur (keyboard), Bildschirm ("picture screen"), Festplatte (hard disk), but monitor and keyboard are also being used a lot today.
Nobody uses Hauptplatine (main circuit board) and Hauptprozessor (main processing unit), it's always just Mainboard and Prozessor (spoke) or CPU (written).
Sound card only exist as the hybrid word Soundkarte, and Verknüpfung is only used for desktop icons, in all other situations, it's just a "link".
If there are German words for desktop, media player, browser, controller, USB, or internet, I never heard about them.

The other case is when you're talking about fashion and lifestyle and you want to sound hip and trendy and not like an uncool loser.
And yes, we use the words fashion, lifestyle, hip, trendy, cool, and loser, none of which are German.

English is fot technical terms and when you want to appear international and urban and generally making a fool of yourself.
Or you're in marketing or youth work and want to get through to the kids. And also making a fool of yourself in the processs.

[dehro]

Nope.. I'm not an english native speaker.. Italian and Dutch.
I'm most familiar with Italian misuse of English.. which happens in the media industry, in IT and in snooty marketing offices... All in all however, except for highly specialized technical lingo and in some geeky/computergame-y arenas, english really hasn't pervaded italian as much as it has, to my feeling from watching this show, japanese.

The most apparent evidence/difference is that in Italy we use plenty of English words, but with the complete awareness that they're English.. we try not to butcher how they're written, focusing primarily on butchering the pronounciation.
But that's just ignorance. Very rarely we're actually trying to incorporate the words and their spelling in our language..
Words like assassin are "italian" in the sense that those who haven't specifically researched it (or haven't played a certain game) are mostly unaware that it's a word that originates from Arabic. the plural of 1 assassino is 2 assassini, not 2 assassins.
Computer is also considered an italian word, now, but everybody is aware that it's origin is english and we pronounce it the english way (or at least an approximation thereof) rather than how an italian unfamiliar with the word would pronounce it if he found it written somewhere. The plural of 1 computer is 2 computers.. just like in english, which in Italian doesn't make sense, per se. (in italian it would be 2 computeri)
In Italian we really don't use that many words of the latter variety.
Now I know much about japanese grammar and recognize maybe 4-5 sentences of it.. but from the anime I linked it seems to me that there is a much higher quantity of words that are being transposed from english to japanese.. so I wonder if it's because the show is about young people and in a modern setting, if those words express concepts that traditional japanese had no words for so they integrated them from english and now they're commonly used in Japanese, or if it's just a case of the authors being particularily eager anglophiles

all I know is that I was reading the subtitles (in english), and my ear couldn't help but pick up a lot of what I was reading.. which was funny because I positively don't understand japanese...yet suddenly it seems I do.

[Yora]

Originally Posted by dehro

Nope.. I'm not an english native speaker.. Italian and Dutch.
I'm most familiar with Italian misuse of English.. which happens in the media industry, in IT and in snooty marketing offices... All in all however, except for highly specialized technical lingo and in some geeky/computergame-y arenas, english really hasn't pervaded italian as much as it has, to my feeling from watching this show, japanese.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Same thing, but apparently more widespread here.

The most apparent evidence/difference is that in Italy we use plenty of English words, but with the complete awareness that they're English.. we try not to butcher how they're written, focusing primarily on butchering the pronounciation.

That's why someone once told me "Katakana is the worst thing that ever happened to Japanese language".
Japanese has two scripts and at some point it was established to use one for native words and the other for foreign words. But both use exactly the same sounds and using Katakana script it's impossible to indicate pronounciations that are different than in Japanese.
Since it's written in Katakana, I think Japanese are well aware that they are foreign words. But since few people speak decent english, most people probably don't know what the correct pronounciation is. So they just speak it like it is written.

Any particular episode or scene you have in mind?

[dehro]

Originally Posted by Yora

Any particular episode or scene you have in mind?

afraid not.. what with having watched most of the episodes back to back... I have kinda noticed this to be a pervading thing.. one character that possibly stands out for doing this is Ikki takeda..the boxeur.. but that may be because he keeps calling Miu a honey or something like that...and of course the boxing terms..which are obviously understandable. (though.. Italy seems to have developed perfectly valid translations for terms such as jabs, uppercuts and so on..and commentators will use italian and english indifferently)

[Yora]

I watched a bit, and it seems like a deliberate artistic choice to me. All the English seems to be technical terms and they might want to invoke associations with science fiction instead of traditional martial arts training.

[Maralais]

Well, the Japanese are really bad there. From the "naysu gayu" pose of Rock Lee(whose name itself is Roku Ree), to calling a pool "puuru".

[Yora]

Since I'm trying to write about time distortions and stuff:

What is the opposite of "Impossibility".

Something that can not happen: Impossibility.
Something that could happen or not: Possibility.
Something that already has happened: ???

[Rawhide]

Originally Posted by Yora

Since I'm trying to write about time distortions and stuff:

What is the opposite of "Impossibility".

Something that can not happen: Impossibility.
Something that could happen or not: Possibility.
Something that already has happened: ???

The opposite of impossibility for something that hasn't happened, but will happen no matter what would be "inevitability".

That the earth will survive is an impossibility.
That the earth will explode is an inevitability.

After the fact, it would be "certainty".

That the earth did survive is an impossibility.
That the earth did explode is a certainty.


Though, no one talks that way, it is a bit stuffy.

[Maralais]

Originally Posted by Yora

Since I'm trying to write about time distortions and stuff:

What is the opposite of "Impossibility".

Something that can not happen: Impossibility.
Something that could happen or not: Possibility.
Something that already has happened: ???

Possimpibility!

really bad HIMYM reference.

[SaintRidley]

Originally Posted by Maralais

Possimpibility!

really bad HIMYM reference.

Needed, now that you said it.

[Maralais]

Originally Posted by SaintRidley

Needed, now that you said it.

Ah, it seems the part where he interviews himself with a British Accent™ is left out.

Also, quick question: Is there a worldwide tendency for B sounds to turn into V?

[Sallera]

Hrm, I don't think so. Dabbler that I am, I can only speak for the few languages I've studied, but of those, only Spanish had such a tendency. Mandarin (I think; it's been over a decade since I touched it ) has a fairly distinct B, and Japanese does the opposite, lacking a native V sound at all. What's it like for the Northern European languages?

[lsfreak]

Originally Posted by Maralais

Also, quick question: Is there a worldwide tendency for B sounds to turn into V?

Yes. The sounds b d g (voiced stops) regularly change into others sounds, especially by losing the full closure of the mouth (voiced fricatives). A universal shift happened in Greek and Spanish, it happened in places as a part of a bigger change in the insular Celtic languages, Proto-Germanic and Aramaic/Hebrew, and it's partially complete in Japanese (b/g). In modern English, this accounts for some of our v, th, y, and w's.

B seems especially prone to it, though - probably because of w being a common sound (even moreso than b/v) that is uses the lips as well. B/v/w merging into each other or changing or redistributing is pretty common; it happened in Vulgar Latin and thus Romance languages, for example: w and b between vowels both became a "v" made with the upper lip rather than upper teeth (the b loses the full closure of the mouth, the w its roundness), merging them together. Then where w (now "v") had been word-initial, iirc it was seen as a "b" between vowels, and became b (redistribution). The remaining "v"s became a standard v. Spanish, instead, kept it as part of a bigger process of losing closure on all of b/d/g.

There's also small oddities, like Old Chinese b to v before y/i in Middle Chinese (to f in modern Mandarin), that aren't the same tendency but a fluke of history (p to f happened at the same spot).

[Yora]

In many parts around here, we almost have distinctions between b/p and d/t disappeared. Where I live now, people even call it "hard d" and "soft d".

On the other hand where I am from, we barely distinguish between g and k.

[Yora]

What is the opposite of "beneficial".

In a sentence like "Every action has both good and bad consequences".


If anyone knows German, here's a funny article I stumbled upon, which I found very funny when I first read it some years ago: "My mother tongue is Standard German. Ot that, which we Holsteiner think it is."

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Beneficial? Harmful, detrimental. Detrimental is probably the best option. Everything has both beneficial and detrimental consequences. Sounds arright to me!

[Rawhide]

Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

Beneficial? Harmful, detrimental. Detrimental is probably the best option. Everything has both beneficial and detrimental consequences. Sounds arright to me!

For that sentence I'd probably go with harmful. Not because it's more accurate, but it just sounds/flows better. That, or go positive/negative.

However, detrimental is generally the more accurate term.

It would be beneficial to your health to eat vegetables.
It would be detrimental to your health to eat junk food.

[factotum]

Although...what's wrong with the original sentence? "Good" and "bad" are perfectly good words, why not use them?

[SaintRidley]

Originally Posted by factotum

Although...what's wrong with the original sentence? "Good" and "bad" are perfectly good words, why not use them?

Classical and French-derived words in English tend to have a culturally assimilated prestige to them that Anglo-Saxon words do not, due in part due to the relationship between class and language for some time after the Norman Conquest and into the Renaissance.

This baggage tends to make these words seem like better words for various uses, since their origins give off the feeling that they are more ornate and carry greater depth of meaning. Which is all really silly when you think about it.

[Yora]

I think good implies "all good" and bad means "all bad".

If something has "good results", it sounds to me that the action also has to be "good" since nothing "bad" results from it.
But that you benefit from something does not mean that you have to like it.

Something beneficial gives you an advantage. Something good is something that you like.

[Inglenook]

Originally Posted by SaintRidley

Classical and French-derived words in English tend to have a culturally assimilated prestige to them that Anglo-Saxon words do not, due in part due to the relationship between class and language for some time after the Norman Conquest and into the Renaissance.

And if I recall correctly, this is why we have two separate words in English for animals as livestock and animals as meat.

cow --- beef
calf --- veal
pig --- pork
chicken, duck, goose --- poultry
sheep --- mutton

The words on the left all originate from Old English and were used by the peasants who farmed the animals. The words on the right all come from Old French or Latin, and were used by the Norman higher-ups who never had to interact with animals except to eat them. Over time the words on the right lost their meaning of the living animal and came to refer solely to the meat.

[factotum]

Originally Posted by Yora

I think good implies "all good" and bad means "all bad".

But you're using both together, so it's already obvious there are some consequences that are not good and vice versa--hence my comment.

[SaintRidley]

Originally Posted by historiasdeosos

And if I recall correctly, this is why we have two separate words in English for animals as livestock and animals as meat.

cow --- beef
calf --- veal
pig --- pork
chicken, duck, goose --- poultry
sheep --- mutton

The words on the left all originate from Old English and were used by the peasants who farmed the animals. The words on the right all come from Old French or Latin, and were used by the Norman higher-ups who never had to interact with animals except to eat them. Over time the words on the right lost their meaning of the living animal and came to refer solely to the meat.

That is exactly right. It's also why we have some interesting triplets of words that don't substitute for each other, but ultimately boil down to the same original meaning like these:

kingly/queenly --- royal --- regal
ask --- question --- interrogate
fire --- flame --- conflagration
holy --- sacred --- consecrated
evil --- malicious --- maleficent

There's something of an informal, almost lay connotation to the words on the far left, all from Old English, whereas the words on the right (borrowed direct from Latin) all have a sort of elevated connotation. Regal and maleficent and consecrated all come across as more conceptual, not meant to be soiled with specific examples but rather as a sort of arch-descriptor, while interrogate has specialized into a particular sort of questioning and conflagration is the big one among fires.

The middle words, all from French, occupy some space in the middle of the two extremes, elevated above the Old English words but somehow not quite appropriate for the sort of meanings we assign the Latin.

[Yora]

Originally Posted by SaintRidley

kingly/queenly --- royal --- regal
ask --- question --- interrogate
fire --- flame --- conflagration
holy --- sacred --- consecrated
evil --- malicious --- maleficent.

Compare with German:

König - königlich - königlich
Fragen - Frage - befragen
Feuer - Flamme - Brand
Heilig - heilig - geheiligt (but usually gesegnet "blessed")
böse - böse - böse

Fire is strange in German as well.

good - better - best is not a language mix, this is straight from German. But we don't have anything like "well".

[lsfreak]

Originally Posted by Yora

good - better - best is not a language mix, this is straight from German. But we don't have anything like "well".

This would be suppletion, where one form of a word comes from a different source word than another form. Best-known example is probably "be" in English:
be/being/been from a word meaning "become, grow"
am/is, conjugated forms of "exist, am"
are, from "they became" from "they became active" from "move"
was/were, conjugated forms of "reside, dwell"
Six thousand or so years of intervening time and they went from independent words to conjugations of the same word (to, in part, tense and passive-voice markers).

[ForzaFiori]

Originally Posted by dehro

Computer is also considered an italian word, now, but everybody is aware that it's origin is english and we pronounce it the english way (or at least an approximation thereof) rather than how an italian unfamiliar with the word would pronounce it if he found it written somewhere. The plural of 1 computer is 2 computers.. just like in english, which in Italian doesn't make sense, per se. (in italian it would be 2 computeri)

That's weird, all my profs told us that the english loan words don't change when pluralized in italian - un computer, due computer, uno sport, due sport, etc. Of course, I will yield to your superior knowledge of the language, but it makes me wonder what my profs were thinking.

[SaintRidley]

Originally Posted by ForzaFiori

That's weird, all my profs told us that the english loan words don't change when pluralized in italian - un computer, due computer, uno sport, due sport, etc. Of course, I will yield to your superior knowledge of the language, but it makes me wonder what my profs were thinking.

Given the nature of assimilating words, I can believe that there isn't quite consensus on how to handle plurals in some cases, especially with the number of new loanwords English is exporting at this time.

[dehro]

Originally Posted by SaintRidley

Given the nature of assimilating words, I can believe that there isn't quite consensus on how to handle plurals in some cases, especially with the number of new loanwords English is exporting at this time.

mostly this..
ForzaFiori is right, on paper, but it's one of those things where people may choose either way and get away with it.
come to think of it, I know plenty of people who adhere to the rule you mention even in spoken Italian. I myself, knowing a bit of English, somehow don't like the sound of it and do use the english pluralisation.
Then again, I have been out of schools for long enough for this rule to have changed..or become the standard, and I don't actually know whether one would get marked down during a test, if he did it my way.