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The main problem (and good thing) with psionics is that they are different. Thus, the player and the DM may be not seeing something and thus playing something wrong. This can make psionics very powerful esp with their ability to Nova like crazy. DMs’ do have to watch Psions and the 1 minute adventuring day, but same with Wizards, too.
Mind you, the system is no more difficult than Vancian, it’s just that we’re all used to Vancian.
We found the Psionic version of Timestop to be very annoying in one high level game. The rest of us could go out for a pizza while the Psion did his turn. ;-)
Now, some of the exotic stuff from psionics is broken or theoretical optimization, but in general, the system is actually significantly more balanced than the vancian casters.
In Gestalt, the power point stacking gets much more ridiculous than the arcane counterparts. Especially when you can go:
Psion/Wilder 5
Psion 10/Metamind 10
Psions and wilders have seperate manifester levels though. So if you're for example, psion 5/ wilder 5
You can normally only spend 5 points on a psion manifestation or 5 points on a wilder manifestation.
IME, psionics can be game breaking, but only in no-op to low-op groups. With even an "average" level of optimization, psionics are less broken than Vancian magic.
I regularly play a Thrallherd, and get accused of being a one-man party. Until I point out the fact that I do one thing well, and everthing else poorly (at best). And that's without actually taking my thralls adventuring. With less than full manifester (ML18 at 20th level). Of course, couple that with the (updated version of) Shadow Mind PrC (from the Mind's Eye web supplement) and I can almost keep up with an epic level Vancian caster.
Yes, but in your example you aren't using everything available to you. So obviously you wouldn't keep up in a high-op game.
If you do use everything available to you, you can use psionic restoration in combination with any level draining effect to gain the free exp to use psychic chirurgy. You would then call a thrall with powers, learn them all, kill the thrall and call a new one with new powers. Once all the powers were learned, you could then call a series of StP Erudite thralls and learn all the arcane spells as well. And then you could make all your thralls 18th manifester lvl psions with all powers and spells known on top of whatever else they normally do. Those are some pretty powerful expendable resources.
You can't willingly restrict your character then use it as an example of how psion can't hang in OP games. That is a strawman.
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Originally Posted by jaybird
The most broken thing about Psionics is the class that gets Arcane spells. That should say a lot about relative power levels.
The power of a StP erudite is not simply access to arcane spells. In many cases psionic powers are better than there arcane counterparts. Psionics has TO tricks that arcane casters cant do. The power comes from the ability to take everything good and broke about psionics and then take everything good and broke about arcane casting. Combining both worlds together on one character turns that guy into something greater than the 2 parts. StP erudite does not bring a psion up to the level of a wizard, it skyrockets psion to the absolute top of the ladder (a Tier 0 if you will).
A StP Erudite with 1 lvl of thrall herd (6th lvl) can have infinite power points all 3rd lvl and lower arcane spells and all 3rd lvl and lower powers known without any support or help from outside of character sources. That is significantly greater than just a 6th lvl wizard.
The power of a StP erudite is not simply access to arcane spells. In many cases psionic powers are better than there arcane counterparts. Psionics has TO tricks that arcane casters cant do. The power comes from the ability to take everything good and broke about psionics and then take everything good and broke about arcane casting. Combining both worlds together on one character turns that guy into something greater than the 2 parts. StP erudite does not bring a psion up to the level of a wizard, it skyrockets psion to the absolute top of the ladder (a Tier 0 if you will).
Very much agreed. StP erudites are among the most powerful characters in the game, just under Pun Pun level.
That's exactly why I'd choose the class if I ever got to turn myself into a D&D character IRL. Factotum on the other side of the gestalt, of course (I did mention it was gestalt, right?).
Under Pun-pun level? Sorry, no. Pun-pun is out of the rules. Also, theoretically, every Wizard is a potential Pun-pun : meet Sarrukh, Gate out, Wish to Shapechange into one for getting around non-replication clause, Assume Supernatural Ability : congratulations, you are now Pun-pun.
A basic, D&D Wizard, reasonably efficient, makes the other party members win battles, while staying safe himself.
A basic, unoptimized Psion, with only Psionic Reformation, is just a Wizard who spends XP to prepare new spells.
An über-optimized, straight Psion (no prestige classes) is a machine made for breaking the action economy in very, very small pieces. And I'm not even talking about Synchronicity. A game-breaking Psion has fun breaking the action economy with power usage clauses. Synchronicity? That's the easy mode.
My current build in a heavily optimized campaign can end up like this, within all of one immediate action :
Self : 1 standard round
Self's body, controlled by Control Body, maintained as swift action (possibly by psicrystal) : 1 standard round of physical actions
2 Schisms : 1 standard mental action
2 psicrystals : 1 standard round each. Psicrystals get feats by HD, and they have as many HD as you do. Hidden Talent + Practiced Manifester : they Bestow Power on you in your Affinity Field. They each spend their 3pp, get four back (they ARE Psionic Creatures), and you and your clone get two back, too.
Fissioned clone : 1 standard round
Fissioned clone's body : 1 standard physical round
Fissioned clone's Schisms : 1 standard mental action each
2 psicrystals : 1 standard round each. Have them control each other's bodies for cheap giggles.
Who needs Synchronicity, again? By that point, you're a small army anyway.
It depends on the level of optimization in the group. I love being powerful enough to stop anything, and I will not go nova all that much if it's not strictly necessary.
But if something is dangerous enough that I need to kill the Metamind just to revive him so that his Font of Power will be available again, well, "we can do that all day erry day, as long as we gain at least 20xp per round". It's one power and one class feature. High-level D&D is DESIGNED to be at that level of power, is all.
Edited out : new psionic tricks. Watch out for them soon in the proper thread.
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Somebody should tell the designers of the martial classes that.
Part of the Design of D&D in all editions (and I will call PF a edition for this purpose) is that Wizards are more powerful at high levels. The one execption is 4th ED, and I actually find the fact that the classes there are overly balanced to be a tad boring.
Still a Epic level Fighter with 10 levels in a good prestige class is completely awesome. Just not as awesome.
Part of the Design of D&D in all editions (and I will call PF a edition for this purpose) is that Wizards are more powerful at high levels. The one execption is 4th ED, and I actually find the fact that the classes there are overly balanced to be a tad boring.
Still a Epic level Fighter with 10 levels in a good prestige class is completely awesome. Just not as awesome.
It is a design feature, but it is not a good one. the problem with 4e is not that the classes are balanced, its that they are doing things in too similar a manner, and they put a stranglehold on your customization.
Look at Legend. It has a wide variety of classes, which are played in very different manners, but are all well-balanced against each other at all levels, while keeping a high degree of versatility and customization. And the end result is amazing. I've shown to fans of both 4e and 3.5, and they all loved it. A level 20 martial class has plenty of awesome in its own right, as are any caster classes, or mixed builds.
I am currently in a campaign (3.5 + 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide) with two different DMs one of them handles the Roleplay aspects of it, and the other handles the Combat, more or less.
The DM who handles the Roleplay (and is the head DM) is indifferent against psionics, but Our combat DM has a High aversion to it, as in every time I bring it up he acts like he is going to throw the Monster Manual at the first Psionic character I roll up... Unfortunately I have a backup character that I would like to play (if I die) that would be a Wilder/Spelltheif, with the baseline concept of I can haz EVERYTHING! (due to the Psitheif Feat in Complete Scoundrel) not Only that but I figured it might be cool to make a character that is very blatantly anti-spells, and anti-psionics.
Not only that but I fear that My Party, or certain members of my party may or may not kill off my character because... well, he is an arcane caster in a world that, more or less Hates the arcane... or I may slip up and accidentally reveal my self to a NPC That I am arcane... due to detect magic, or something else.
There are ways to get around detect magic etc, either through cleverness or a variety of things including spells, templates, skill tricks etc.
Also keep in mind that detect magic by RAW doesn't detect spellcasters - it detects active spells and magic items.
Any GM who 'hates' certain classes is by definition a bad GM in that regard. They might have other factors that make it still worth playing in their game, but it's a major warning sign as there is no reason to ever 'hate' a specific kind of character - much less to act against it in-game. It's the absolute worst kind of GM partisanship to do so.
Since is discovered that 3.5 psionics were no where near as borked as 3.0 psionics, I have had a very hard time bringing myself to play wizard. Wizard can do anything a psion can do, and do it better, including smashing the action economy into tiny pieces, but psion is much easier on the book keeping, letting me ignore the minutia and get back to being a proper murder hobo. I will say that crystal swarm is kinda broken, but even then a 20' cone of no save, no sr, no attack roll piercing damage is only so good.
Since is discovered that 3.5 psionics were no where near as borked as 3.0 psionics, I have had a very hard time bringing myself to play wizard. Wizard can do anything a psion can do, and do it better, including smashing the action economy into tiny pieces, but psion is much easier on the book keeping, letting me ignore the minutia and get back to being a proper murder hobo. I will say that crystal swarm is kinda broken, but even then a 20' cone of no save, no sr, no attack roll piercing damage is only so good.
Pretty much the same as my case. Almost every time I play a vancian caster it's actually a gish, and only because of the associated prestige classes. And Mirror Image, I love that little spell.
But then I remembered I'm good at adapting stuff to pf and to psionics (and pf psionics are the best thing ever ever ever ever ever ever!). So now I have a psionic swiftblade. Just need to find an item of mirror image now...
There's lots of no save no SR damage spells wizards get. Hail of Stone is a good first level one. The 'Orb' series don't even allow reflex saves.
And yeah, i'd give a psion to a new player over a wizard (although vancian magic has wormed it's way into public consciousness via computer RPGs and books - so there's kind of a parity there), especially since a lot of the stuff psions do is actually more interesting than stuff wizards do. Wizards do horrible physical changes, brute-force spellcasting, and crazy planar summoning bullcrap. Psionics is a lot more time and mind-focused, and more subtle (except for the blasting, which is if anything less subtle).
Psionics are not broken in any way, except for the TO tricks that arcane and divine casters have even more of.
Some DMs think they're OP because they ignore AMFs and SR, but they don't since the default rule is psionics-magic transparency.
Other DMs might think they're OP because they can change the effect of their Energy powers on the fly or have a number of points rather than certain spells, but that's not OP, just flexible, especially since the psionic classes are limited to a certain number of powers known anyway.
Other DMs think they're OP because they can focus all their power points into a single power, but they can't, because you cannot invest more PP in a single power use than your manifester level.
Can i buy a vowel? Trying to read and did not understand all the abbreviations.
I like psionics, they are a nice change and depending if you count them same or different than magic they are special or just a different user. Overall I have one in my game and ANY magicish class will dominate the minions. Overall I love them and would gladly play one if I could.
Can i buy a vowel? Trying to read and did not understand all the abbreviations.
TO = Theoretical Optimization, an armchair exercise in stretching an idea or hole in the rules until it pops. Often opposed to PO, or practical optimization, the construction of a character build for actual use in a normal game at a given power level.
OP = overpowered.
AMF = antimagic field, Sorcerer/Wizard 6 and Cleric 8 spell.
SR = Spell Resistance.
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The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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