General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

[Tavar]

To test their weaponry, they set up a whole section of the North to suddenly revert to Pure Chaos, and then sent the army in to clean up and repel the invasion. Problem being they didn't warn any of the inhabitants before hand. Massive civilian casualties, and while they did rebuild the area, it's not nearly the same. For example, previously areas were cultural centers, but no longer, and they have some mental landmines in place as well.

[Yuki Akuma]

To summarize the wildly differing interpretations: Solars invited enemies of Creation in, broke bits of Creation and got millions of mortal killed as a training exercise.

[Turalisj]

Originally Posted by Volt

The Deliberative gave the go-ahead for a war game in which they destabilised a region of Creation with Wyld energy, warping the land and spawning armies of behemoths and Fair Folk, simply because they wanted to test their latest weapons and their armies. They didn't see fit to warn the mortals about this, and in the 16 months the Operation took, 40 million mortals died and regions of Creation was lost. At the time Dreams of the Lost Age is set, that happened 23 years ago, and it was predicted that cleanup would take at least another decade, the cleanup being made more complicated due to the wyld-shapers wanting to 'improve' the layout of the land, to use the way the book describes it. Oh, and all this was seen as a 'triumphant success' officially.

So they clutched the Villain Ball so tight to their chest you would think they were running for the game winning touchdown?

[Drascin]

Originally Posted by Turalisj

So they clutched the Villain Ball so tight to their chest you would think they were running for the game winning touchdown?

Pretty much.

[Turalisj]

Which leads me to pretty much rewrite any events in Dawn of the First Age for my own games, and ask any ST I'm in a game with to rewrite things so Solars aren't acting like Snidely Whiplash and Lex Luthor during the First Age.

I'm all for having some Solars being overly eccentric during the end of the First Age, especially while in limit break, but I hate handing anyone or any group the Villain or Idiot Ball. It's a writing cop out.

[Revlid]

Operation Wyld-Hand is, was and remains a victim of Independent, anti-Deliberative propaganda. It was an entirely legal[1] military exercise that passed the voting Deliberation with a clear majority of approval[2].

[1] Pending, of course, Amendment 54a to the Loom-Preservation Priority Act.
[2] Statistics indicating that Deliberation attendance is at its lowest ever are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

A strong political bloc[3] supported Operation Wyld-Hand for the very simple reason that Creation is not prepared for the Wyld. It cannot be prepared. Certainly, we have beaten back the common and noble raksha who nibble away at our shores with greater efficacy than the River of All Torments ever did. Certainly, our Eclipse negotiators have bound the greatest among the known Unshaped with oaths not even their chaotic souls can throw off lightly. But we have never in all our years had to face one of the Ishvara, those god-fae with the power to challenge fetich souls and even Our Guiding Light himself. And that is not the greatest of the Wyld's dangers.

[3] Among them the Cauldronist Faction, whose access to the data from the Operation will aid their arguments for complete reality-dissolution and restructuring immensely.

What is that great danger, you ask? We do not know. That is the danger. For all our mastery of the shinma, our grasp of the highest Circles of Sorcery, the Wyld still retains the capacity to surprise us. In Time Not, it brought forth Primordial after Primordial across a timespan of aeons; who is to say that new titans might not spring forth even today, hungry for the world that once belonged to their elder siblings? We all recall the horrors of the Aftershock War, do we not? How can we allow ourselves to be any less prepared for the unknown than is possible? We cannot. It would be nothing short of a dereliction of our duties to Creation.

It is true that errors occurred throughout the Operation. Evacuation orders failed to reach their proper destinations on time[4]. Wyld fauna were funneled into areas that will let them propagate, rather than ensuring their immediate extermination[5]. The systematic demolition of dragon-lines resulted in an unsustainable degree of Fate-errors, when projections showed the mahabhuta-detonations would be entirely controlled[6].

[4] The responsibility for organizing evacuation orders was held by the Realism In Military Simulations Society, who will be holding an informal hearing later today to determine fault.
[5] As [4], with regard to the Hundun-Mutation Group.
[6] As [4], with regard to the Dai Bakuhatsu Faction.

But this is what these tests are for! To iron out these wrinkles. To understand a worst-case scenario. To develop better response times, better tactics, better weaponry, to keep our world safe. We must remember that the Order of Emergent Dawns[7] performed with a prowess not seen in a hundred years, providing invaluable experience to those of our juniors unblooded by war with a Primordial.

[7] Responsible for the original proposition of, and much of the funding for, this Operation.

With all this in mind, I think we can come together to congratulate the Deliberative on a successful conclusion to Operation Wyld-Hand, the single greatest production of military and scientific effort since the completion of the Directional Titans![8]

[8] IAM predicts a steep increase in the number of petitions for regional independence from the Deliberative next year, with especial emphasis on those Solars who attempted to block Operation Wyld-Hand, or were unaware of it as a serious proposal.

[DeadManSleeping]

Originally Posted by Turalisj

Which leads me to pretty much rewrite any events in Dawn of the First Age for my own games, and ask any ST I'm in a game with to rewrite things so Solars aren't acting like Snidely Whiplash and Lex Luthor during the First Age.

I'm all for having some Solars being overly eccentric during the end of the First Age, especially while in limit break, but I hate handing anyone or any group the Villain or Idiot Ball. It's a writing cop out.

Either the Solars get the Villain/Idiot Ball, or the Sidereals do. Thank you, Usurpation!

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by DeadManSleeping

Either the Solars get the Villain/Idiot Ball, or the Sidereals do. Thank you, Usurpation!

OR the Sidereals go, reasonably and with sadness "If a Solar every gets the Villain or Idiot Ball, reality stops being. We cannot allow this, even if it hasn't happened badly enough yet - we cannot clean up such an infinite disaster."

[Lord Raziere]

See, thats why I'm not crazy about Solars: they shine so bright that I suspect that they blind even themselves. They are the perfect examples of extreme morality that I try to avoid. Too much sun magic in the brain. and everyone else's brain. and reality.

granted, the people around them are not much better, but I'd rather not have that much power, Solars are too open and I'd rather have more limits because it would be too easy to cause disasters to happen without thinking.

that and I'd rather come up with clever solutions than use raw force like that.
but Lunars are still screwed, Sidereals will be errata'd soon but not yet, and the rest……well Abyssals are actually Solars but even more brute force (I think my original logic is that if I could find clever ways of solving problems using only what is only supposed to use to kill….but that didn't work out), Dragon-Blooded are soldiers, but Infernals and Raksha work….and I do like Alchemicals for being techno…..

maybe my problem is that all the splats with working mechanics are ones that are less "clever solution" and more "raw brute force"…..that would make sense in a way…..

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

granted, the people around them are not much better, but I'd rather not have that much power, Solars are too open and I'd rather have more limits because it would be too easy to cause disasters to happen without thinking.

It is within a Solar's power to bind themselves with charms. Integrity charms to reduce your mote pool unless certain situations come up (Channeling a Virtue, Channeling a particular Virtue, not suppressing a Virtue, authorized by legal authority, challenging a being of equal or higher Essence are some that come to mind) is a fairly simple way.
First Age Solars did not seek this out - whether the charms are possible? Unknown. But it seems they didn't try, judging by what little we know.

[Tavar]

Originally Posted by aetherialDawn

OR the Sidereals go, reasonably and with sadness "If a Solar every gets the Villain or Idiot Ball, reality stops being. We cannot allow this, even if it hasn't happened badly enough yet - we cannot clean up such an infinite disaster."

Exactly. The Story of the Usurpation as presented in Core/Sidereals doesn't seem to be "and the Sidereals saw the terrors around them, and responded as sane individuals" but "and though the Golden Age war glorious, the Sidereals saw the Dark Undercurrents, and with their Great Foresight, they saw where this would lead."

Plus, if the Solars are carrying the villain ball, that just means that the Gold Faction is carry idiot ball, as well as the Entire Lunar host(unless they aren't also carrying the villain ball). This is kind of a bad design.

[horngeek]

Okay, first. Revlid, you are awesome.

Second, on Siddies and the Idiot ball. Isn't that exactly how their manifestation of the Great Curse works?

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by horngeek

Okay, first. Revlid, you are awesome.

Second, on Siddies and the Idiot ball. Isn't that exactly how their manifestation of the Great Curse works?

Their Great Curse didn't turn on supercharged until they gathered.
The problem was so serious that they were able to gather every single Sidereal (which caused the Great Curse to turn on, supercharged...) to look into the future for some way to save the world. Remember, although the Bronze Vision won, they also did look for and find a Gold Vision (And a 'we do nothing' vision that was pretty much "World Go Boom")

[golentan]

So, I'd like to see if I get something correctly. With the Chemical Fog Generator and the Psychogenic Gas module, someone exposed to the gas will have it in their system for 2 days, during which (if they fail their stamina/resistance rolls) they will suffer a -5 internal penalty to all their actions from hallucinations and other crazy issues. But, if they do make their stamina resistance roll they're unaffected until the next day, and there's no way to extend the duration or force an extra roll until two days have passed and you can force them to breathe deep again

[The Demented One]

Originally Posted by horngeek

Second, on Siddies and the Idiot ball. Isn't that exactly how their manifestation of the Great Curse works?

The Sidereal Curse is hubris, not stupidity.

[Turalisj]

Originally Posted by The Demented One

The Sidereal Curse is hubris, not stupidity.

Does one not lead to the other? Do the proud not often do foolish or stupid acts?

[Lord Raziere]

well the Solars were also sorta being hubristic and such…

so you can say that the Solars created a big Hubris Ball, then handed it to the Sidereals.

and now the Hubris Ball may have either been passed to the Dragon-Blooded, Yozis or Death Lords depending on which you think will fall apart first...

[Andreaz]

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

granted, the people around them are not much better, but I'd rather not have that much power, Solars are too open and I'd rather have more limits because it would be too easy to cause disasters to happen without thinking.

That happens even to dragon-bloods. It's part of the charm of the game to me that you can kill everyone around you because you forgot to spend personal instead of peripheral motes.
Hells, they had to relearn architecture and engineering just so they'd stop demolishing their own houses.

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

that and I'd rather come up with clever solutions than use raw force like that.

Nobody is stopping your solar from doing that. As you said, they are very, very open. "cleverness" is as much a method for them as they are to others. That they "need" it less does not mean they "can" do it less.

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

but Lunars are still screwed, Sidereals will be errata'd soon but not yet, and the rest……well Abyssals are actually Solars but even more brute force (I think my original logic is that if I could find clever ways of solving problems using only what is only supposed to use to kill….but that didn't work out), Dragon-Blooded are soldiers, but Infernals and Raksha work….and I do like Alchemicals for being techno…..

maybe my problem is that all the splats with working mechanics are ones that are less "clever solution" and more "raw brute force"…..that would make sense in a way…..

Again, clever solutions are available to everyone.

[Drascin]

Originally Posted by Andreaz

Nobody is stopping your solar from doing that. As you said, they are very, very open. "cleverness" is as much a method for them as they are to others. That they "need" it less does not mean they "can" do it less.

The thing is that doing a "clever" solution when raw power will be both easier and more efficient stops being clever and actually becomes the "dumb" option. Circuitous plans are only clever and cool if there's need for them - otherwise, they're just incredibly silly and a weakness.

[Andreaz]

Originally Posted by Drascin

The thing is that doing a "clever" solution when raw power will be both easier and more efficient stops being clever and actually becomes the "dumb" option. Circuitous plans are only clever and cool if there's need for them - otherwise, they're just incredibly silly and a weakness.

Easier and Efficient solution does not have to be "better" solution.
You want an example of an easy and efficient solution? Killing the primordials. It did indeed overthrow their power and replaced it with something more desirable.
And created the neverborn, and with them everything ghostly or necromantic.
Another one? The Usurpation. It did indeed overthrow the maddened rulers before they'd tear the world apart.
And ensured the glorious and comfortable lives everyone lived decayed irreversibly, large portions of the world stopped existing anyway and Deathlords, Abyssals and Infernals are now a reality.

(of course, all things said "Clever" just really means "skilled", which all exalts are, but let's go with shrewdness and cunning as its meaning)

[Weimann]

Have some unofficial-but-developer-endorsed Overdrive Charms! Comes in both Lunar and Sidereal flavour, courtesy of Reminiscent Oasis and Revlid, respectively.

Note, these are not written with knowledge of 2.5, but it is assumed that any changes required in light of that will be minor. These Charms are unofficial, not canon and is produced to allow Lunars and Sidereals the important Overdrive mechanic when testing 2.5, since the writers were running short on time.

[horngeek]

Originally Posted by Revlid

HORIZON-CRESTING CAVALRY RESCUE

...okay, my immediate thought: "Look to my coming on first light of the fifth day. At dawn, look to the east."

[Story Time]

Originally Posted by Turalisj

Which leads me to pretty much rewrite any events in Dawn of the First Age for my own games, and ask any ST I'm in a game with to rewrite things so Solars aren't acting like Snidely Whiplash and Lex Luthor during the First Age.

Ah, someone made sense today. I feel better.

Originally Posted by aetherialDawn

Their Great Curse didn't turn on supercharged until they gathered.

Does anyone else find this explanation as...oh, I don't know...weak? Think about it for a second. An exalt type designed to function properly as a bunch of loners? If they don't, Creation explodes? Okay, great. Then why are they allowed to gather in groups around the loom?

I could get into the Loom issue, but I won't right now.

Originally Posted by The Demented One

The Sidereal Curse is hubris, not stupidity.

...even saying that, and I want to be polite about this, it really seems like the Great Curse is...flavorized to affect all Exalts this way. That's just one person's gathering from the manuals.


No offense to anyone in particular. Not the contributors, either.

[horngeek]

Originally Posted by Story Time

Does anyone else find this explanation as...oh, I don't know...weak? Think about it for a second. An exalt type designed to function properly as a bunch of loners? If they don't, Creation explodes? Okay, great. Then why are they allowed to gather in groups around the loom?

I could get into the Loom issue, but I won't right now.

Okay, important thing, which people seem to forget at times: no one knows about the Great Curse. At least, no one who's able and inclined to do something about the Great Curse knows it exists for certain. People don't recognise that Creation explodes if Sidereals gather, because they don't know about the Great Curse in the first place, much less the fact that the Siddie's manifestation of it gets stronger as they gather.

[Andreaz]

Originally Posted by Story Time

Does anyone else find this explanation as...oh, I don't know...weak? Think about it for a second. An exalt type designed to function properly as a bunch of loners? If they don't, Creation explodes? Okay, great. Then why are they allowed to gather in groups around the loom?

Because they were not designed to work as loners. And they aren't aware of the Great Curse, much less as something that gets worse when they gather.
AND the sidereal Curse is particularly devious because it isn't a sudden turn to the other side of creation like the other celestials' curse.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Originally Posted by Story Time

Does anyone else find this explanation as...oh, I don't know...weak? Think about it for a second. An exalt type designed to function properly as a bunch of loners? If they don't, Creation explodes? Okay, great. Then why are they allowed to gather in groups around the loom?

I could get into the Loom issue, but I won't right now.

The Sidereal tendency to go crazy when gathered is pretty greatly overplayed by the fandom. Usually as a joke (RELEASE THE KUKLA!), but still.

If you check the book (MoEP: Sidereals, pg. 119), all that happens is that Sidereals roll more dice when checking for Limit (and gathering together is not a trigger for that). That's it. And it's only 3 more dice when all 100 Siddies are in the same room. So while there is a greater tendency towards Limit Breaking while they're together, it's not to an insane degree.

[Madwand]

If you check the book (MoEP: Sidereals, pg. 119), all that happens is that Sidereals roll more dice when checking for Limit (and gathering together is not a trigger for that). That's it. And it's only 3 more dice when all 100 Siddies are in the same room. So while there is a greater tendency towards Limit Breaking while they're together, it's not to an insane degree.

It is a luck, that we are aware that Great Curse mechanics is (like soo many thing in Exalted) not good for what it should represent.

Originally Posted by Stephenls

The usual implication is that the great curse is a bit more complex than regular limit breaks, but we don't have the mechanics for it because nobody ever bothered to write them, that being 'cause it's a bit pointless to write mechanics for what happens to 3,000+ year Solars when they aren't going to show up much in play.

The more important implication of Great Curse is fact that it was able to bypass perfect defenses..

[Andreaz]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

So while there is a greater tendency towards Limit Breaking while they're together, it's not to an insane degree.

There is the aggravation that, where one sidereal in limit break will devise a plan with unnecessary implications and complications, you now have a greater number of sids suffering limit break while working together on the same plan...

[Rockphed]

What happened to that re-write of sidereal limit break, complete with excessively complicated goals?

[Rikandur Azebol]

Originally Posted by Rockphed

What happened to that re-write of sidereal limit break, complete with excessively complicated goals?

Ebon Dragon pissed into the ink.