Star Wars: The Old Republic II: Hutts don't have feet!

[Calemyr]

I like the smuggler, personally - though the light ending is apparently a bit of a let-down. I like smart, practical, sarcastic characters, and the smuggler does that well.

Unfortunately, while the grind is absolutely less noticeable, there are currently balance issues that annoy me. I went from being able to take on even-level champions solo with just a little strategy to being unable to touch lower-level elites regardless of strategy. It turned everything into a painful drag, got expensive quick, and the delay for resurrecting on the spot just got ridiculous fast. The only way to escape that is to gather a party (or at least a partner), but I couldn't beg, barter, or blackmail anyone into helping me most of the time because there just weren't enough people in any given planet. As a result, I'm really getting worn down on the game. For me, this switch-up hit at around level 30 (end of Act I) and just kept kicking my rump harder with each level.

As it is, I'm on the fence. Depending on how Bioware resolves the ME3 debacle, I may well just quit the game - no point punishing myself just to support a company I no longer respect. Otherwise I'll just have to switch to a different class, probably a trooper or bounty hunter.

[Squark]

Story-wise, the Agent is held in high regard. Sith Warrior is pretty good (apart from a wallbanger out of character event near the end. So far, my only way to reconcile said event has involved mind rape). Bounty Hunter and Smuggler both have good chapter 1 stories, but I can't say much about chapter 2 for the Smuggler yet, while Chapter 2 for the Bounty Hunter just feels like glorified padding. Jedi Knight's story is somewhat sue-ish but fun, Inquisitor's story is downright wierd, Trooper's is very YMMV (I happen to like it, but it's pretty polarized in that regard), and the Consular's tends to be unpopular.

[mangosta71]

Originally Posted by GungHo

It's not terribly grindy...

Wut.

Have you not gotten a character to 50 yet? See how many days in a row you can stand to sit there and listen to the dialog for the daily quests. At least Legacy is shared across all characters on the server on your account, so you can take a break from the tedious grind to level an alt. Until that character hits 50 and you start the process again...

Aside from that, the lack of macro support and the uncustomizable UI are major issues. The sheer number of spells you get means you'll have 4 bars full of abilities (because the UI only allows you to have four), all of which are useful/necessary at different times. Combine all of that with no autoattack. That's right - you have to press a button every time you want your character to take a swing/shot. So if you DC with an enemy at 10%, it will kill you because your character will stop doing anything, even if you're at full hp. When you're sitting in combat waiting for your energy/Force to generate or for heat to vent so you can use an ability, you can't sit back for a couple seconds - you have to keep pressing buttons (different buttons, because without macro support you can't link abilities so that your "basic" attack fires when you don't have the resource to use your spam ability). And no combat log (though that's rumored to be in development for the next patch) makes it impossible to quantify your performance, which is necessary if you want to judge what you need to improve, compare specs, etc.

In addition, the class story quests, which are supposed to be solo adventures, are damn near impossible if your character is dps. Or even if you're a tank/healer and haven't gotten a companion that can fill the other role yet. So for a new character, if you want to be able to progress on your own you should roll a tank powertech (for BH), a healing sorcerer (for SI), or healing operative (for IA). If you want to be a mercenary BH, you won't get a tank companion until 30+. If you want to be an assassin SI, you won't get a healer until 40+. Not sure when juggernaut SWs get their healer, but it's not before mid-20s. Marauders and snipers are just completely SoL - if you want to play one of them, you'll need a leveling buddy all the way to 50.

And the game is still rife with bugs. I purchased one of the 1.5M credit speeders on my Agent. I get knocked off by shots that deal less than 200 damage (and no, that's not missing a zero).

Originally Posted by Jeivar

Which classes do people feel have the best stories?

The Imperial Agent story is far and away the best of the storylines I've played, but all my characters are Empire, though the Bounty Hunter gets the best dialog.

All in all, after leveling a couple characters to 50 the game pretty much completely lost its appeal for me. The Star Wars universe is cool, the story writing is great, and voice acting everything was pretty awesome, but the gameplay (which is all that's left once you hit the level cap) is mediocre at best.

[Sith_Happens]

Originally Posted by Squark

Inquisitor's story is downright weird

Tell me about it; I just finished Chapter II.

Spoiler

I knew that some kind of negative ghost-power feedback was inevitable, I just figured that it would wait until at least after Voss so that Chapter III could finally start dropping some political scheming into the mix like the (admittidley both years-old) Holonet entry and dev blog for the class promised me would happen at some point.

On the bright side, cutscene-stomping Thanaton was incredibly satisfying and I'm sure they'll find some way to make Round Two of "Thanaton thinks you're dead so go do some ritual-y things before he wises up" just as interesting as the first time. After all, Belsavis is up next and, given both my class story so far and the Tatooine world arc, Force knows what kind of crazy poodoo I'm going to run into on a former Rakatan world.

[Jokes]

So after several crushing defeats at the hands of GXR-5 on Black Talon yesterday, today I went through on easy mode and may have found a decent strategy. Basically, have everyone hide in one of the adjoining airlocks (where the droids cut through earlier, and completely out of line of sight) and have the tank draw aggro then hide too, pulling GXR-5 to the airlock. The exploding droids always spawn near the center of the room, and explode before reaching the outer part of the room. Which just leaves GXR-5 to be killed. This seems to work on easy mode, and I don't see why it shouldn't work on hard mode, unless the exploding trigger is longer or the droids are faster.

[Sith_Happens]

Originally Posted by Jokes

So after several crushing defeats at the hands of GXR-5 on Black Talon yesterday, today I went through on easy mode and may have found a decent strategy. Basically, have everyone hide in one of the adjoining airlocks (where the droids cut through earlier, and completely out of line of sight) and have the tank draw aggro then hide too, pulling GXR-5 to the airlock. The exploding droids always spawn near the center of the room, and explode before reaching the outer part of the room. Which just leaves GXR-5 to be killed. This seems to work on easy mode, and I don't see why it shouldn't work on hard mode, unless the exploding trigger is longer or the droids are faster.

Or if the devs added a "can't be pulled/kited away from where the mechanics happen" clause like they did to most other bosses that you could otherwise pull that trick on.

[GungHo]

Originally Posted by Jeivar

Hmm. I hadn't thought about this before, but now I'm curious; Which classes do people feel have the best stories?

Personal opinion
1) Agent
2) Sith Warrior, Jedi Knight (tie)
4) Smuggler
5) Bounty Hunter, Trooper (tie)
7) Jedi Consular
8) Sith Inquisitor

Note, they're not all consistent throughout. The Trooper starts out like a rocket ship and then falters in Act 2 and crashes and burns in Act 3. The Consular starts out crappy but picks up in Act 2 and then dips again in Act 3. Smuggler's Act 3 kinda sucks, but it maintains a fun factor throughout. Bounty Hunter is consistently meh, but has fun dialog like the Smuggler. Sith Inquisitor has moments, but not in the plot... mostly in their reactions to things... the voice actors did what they could.

My opinions have been formed from feedback I've heard, youtube videos, and personal experience.

If you liked KOTOR a lot, the Warrior and Knight have the most call-backs and similarities to the first two games. The Knight is said to be what KOTOR 3 would have been, with some of the the Dark Side stories (e.g. Tattoine) moved to the Warrior.

Originally Posted by mangosta71

Have you not gotten a character to 50 yet?

Yes. Twice. (Operative, Vanguard) Three if you count beta. I have two more well on the way (Marauder, Sage). Note, the Marauder is effectively shelved at 42 until server transfers are available.

Originally Posted by mangosta71

See how many days in a row you can stand to sit there and listen to the dialog for the daily quests.

I didn't stick around and do much for dailies at 50. This is not a a good game if you're focued on sticking around with the same guy to trick them out. Then again, I'd also throw the same stick at WoW for having mindless daily quests. Though, at least their mindless daily crap involves doing mindless things like fishing and gathering sugar. The only thing close to that is the space missions.

With the Legacy bonuses, they're clearly trying to incentivize alt-itis.

Originally Posted by mangosta71

Aside from that, the lack of macro support and the uncustomizable UI are major issues. The sheer number of spells you get means you'll have 4 bars full of abilities (because the UI only allows you to have four), all of which are useful/necessary at different times.

Can't help you with macros, but UI customization is in 1.2. Still 4 bars. Still, I can make the bars look exactly like my G13, which is great.

Originally Posted by mangosta71

Combine all of that with no autoattack. That's right - you have to press a button every time you want your character to take a swing/shot.

I get what you're saying here, but i'm not sure I miss auto-attack. To implement, they'd have to tweak their global cooldown mechanic... otherwise you auto-attacking would prevent you from ever engaging another ability. Ergonomically, it might be nice to have the auto-attack, because, yes... you're otherwise hitting 1 or right clicking your mouse to do the basic attack. Also, I am not sure how it'd work for Sages or Sorcerors... they're ranged, but their basic attack is in melee.

Originally Posted by mangosta71

And no combat log (though that's rumored to be in development for the next patch) makes it impossible to quantify your performance, which is necessary if you want to judge what you need to improve, compare specs, etc.

Not a rumor... it's there.

Originally Posted by mangosta71

In addition, the class story quests, which are supposed to be solo adventures, are damn near impossible if your character is dps.

Can't confirm/dispute this... I'm usually well over-leveled because I do space combat as my dailies on my "active" characters for the money and XP. As noted above, if I'm going to do brainless daily activity, I'm going to find the biggest bang for the buck.

I have heard there are definitely some hard fights for Assassins and Snipers due to set up issues.

Originally Posted by mangosta71

If you want to be a mercenary BH, you won't get a tank companion until 30+. If you want to be an assassin SI, you won't get a healer until 40+. Not sure when juggernaut SWs get their healer, but it's not before mid-20s.

End of Balmorra for SWs, so it's early 20s if played as designed. Note, Empire generally gets companions at a slower rate than Republic. And, both Assassins and Gunslingers are screwed by not getting healers until very late (Hoth). Also, the Smuggler's healer is kind of annoying, so it's difficult to really use him for long.

[mangosta71]

Originally Posted by GungHo

I get what you're saying here, but i'm not sure I miss auto-attack. To implement, they'd have to tweak their global cooldown mechanic... otherwise you auto-attacking would prevent you from ever engaging another ability. Ergonomically, it might be nice to have the auto-attack, because, yes... you're otherwise hitting 1 or right clicking your mouse to do the basic attack. Also, I am not sure how it'd work for Sages or Sorcerors... they're ranged, but their basic attack is in melee.

If it was implemented the way it is in every other MMO, using an ability would trump autoattack for the cast/duration, which means it wouldn't be an issue. As for Sages and Sorcerers, what do they do now when they have to stop using abilities to regen Force (because the only time autoattack would be active is when the character isn't using another ability)? Do they sit on their thumbs at range or run into the melee to swing their sabers?

Originally Posted by GungHo

Not a rumor... it's there.

It's rumored until it's live. As long as it's still only on the PTS, it can be changed/taken away.

[MCerberus]

Originally Posted by Sith_Happens

Tell me about it; I just finished Chapter II.

Spoiler

I knew that some kind of negative ghost-power feedback was inevitable, I just figured that it would wait until at least after Voss so that Chapter III could finally start dropping some political scheming into the mix like the (admittidley both years-old) Holonet entry and dev blog for the class promised me would happen at some point.

On the bright side, cutscene-stomping Thanaton was incredibly satisfying and I'm sure they'll find some way to make Round Two of "Thanaton thinks you're dead so go do some ritual-y things before he wises up" just as interesting as the first time. After all, Belsavis is up next and, given both my class story so far and the Tatooine world arc, Force knows what kind of crazy poodoo I'm going to run into on a former Rakatan world.

Spoiler

All I'm going to say is that Belsavis gets weird.

As per complaints on the quality and tone of the SI story, it's quite enjoyable (other than act 2) if you don't look at it like the mob-boss political intrigue plot hinted at by the devs.

Instead it's all about self-determination and finding your place in the world.

Act I/II spoilers

Spoiler

You're betrayed by your mother figure, left to rot by the system, and given an ultimatum by your ancestor in that he's not going to help you any more. If the empire doesn't have a place for you YOU RIP IT UNTIL IT DOES.

Which is why I find Imperius/Occulus to be more compelling than standard-evil

[Osiris_Shadowblade]

Originally Posted by Jokes

So after several crushing defeats at the hands of GXR-5 on Black Talon yesterday, today I went through on easy mode and may have found a decent strategy. Basically, have everyone hide in one of the adjoining airlocks (where the droids cut through earlier, and completely out of line of sight) and have the tank draw aggro then hide too, pulling GXR-5 to the airlock. The exploding droids always spawn near the center of the room, and explode before reaching the outer part of the room. Which just leaves GXR-5 to be killed. This seems to work on easy mode, and I don't see why it shouldn't work on hard mode, unless the exploding trigger is longer or the droids are faster.

How'd you get it too move out of the nook it starts out in? While we were running it yesterday, it seemed pretty comfortable curbstomping us from the safety and comfort of its starting spot.

Thinking about it, that fight would have gone a lot better if the Mercenary we had with us had tried attacking the exploding drones instead of running away from them.

[Jokes]

Originally Posted by Osiris_Shadowblade

How'd you get it too move out of the nook it starts out in? While we were running it yesterday, it seemed pretty comfortable curbstomping us from the safety and comfort of its starting spot.

I think that's a glitch that happens when you wipe. Normally once you kill the other droids he steps out into the center of the room. Or just that he pretty much always had LOS to one of us, so never needed to move.

[Sith_Happens]

Originally Posted by MCerberus

Spoiler

All I'm going to say is that Belsavis gets weird.

As per complaints on the quality and tone of the SI story, it's quite enjoyable (other than act 2) if you don't look at it like the mob-boss political intrigue plot hinted at by the devs.

Instead it's all about self-determination and finding your place in the world.

Act I/II spoilers

Spoiler

You're betrayed by your mother figure, left to rot by the system, and given an ultimatum by your ancestor in that he's not going to help you any more. If the empire doesn't have a place for you YOU RIP IT UNTIL IT DOES.

Which is why I find Imperius/Occulus to be more compelling than standard-evil

I definitely like the story a lot for what it is, but I'm still sad that I don't actually get to flex my inner diabolical mastermind.

Spoiler

given an ultimatum by your ancestor in that he's not going to help you any more

Spoiler

Yeah... except he's already given me that line FOUR times. Seriously, I don't care what horrible fate he's saving me from next, if Kallig shows up again I am binding his glowing blue butt faster than you can say "Oh, you again." He's cool and all and I still actually like him, he's just really worn out his welcome.

-----------------------------------------

EDIT: We each just got 22 more trial invites.

[Jokes]

*sigh* Well that didn't work. Seems GXR can shoot through walls on hardmode

[GungHo]

Originally Posted by mangosta71

If it was implemented the way it is in every other MMO, using an ability would trump autoattack for the cast/duration, which means it wouldn't be an issue.

Ok, that's not how it's implemented in this game right now.

Originally Posted by mangosta71

As for Sages and Sorcerers, what do they do now when they have to stop using abilities to regen Force (because the only time autoattack would be active is when the character isn't using another ability)? Do they sit on their thumbs at range or run into the melee to swing their sabers?

You rotate in other abilities that have a lower force cost (e.g. lightning strike) or that have a chance of rebuilding force. You really don't have a lot of issues with Force as a Sage/Sorceror unless you're dumping a lot of healing powers. They're not unlimited batteries, but they don't have near the resource management issues that the other classes have... force regens at the same rate regardless of whether you have 500 force or 10 force. It's not like with a Trooper/BH or Agent/Smuggler where rate of regeneration is directly related to your energy pool. In any case, I do suggest that any Sorceror/Sage take their first five talents in their respective middle trees. One talent increases your force pool to 600 pts, and the other talent reduces all force power costs by 3%.

Originally Posted by mangosta71

It's rumored until it's live. As long as it's still only on the PTS, it can be changed/taken away.

Ok.

[Valaqil]

Originally Posted by mangosta71

It's rumored until it's live. As long as it's still only on the PTS, it can be changed/taken away.

Eh. I think "planned" is a better term. It's not really "rumored" if it's known to the public and implemented for public testing on the PTS.

[mangosta71]

I'm cynical because I've seen features in other games that made it to the PTS only to get pushed back to a later patch/removed entirely.

[Karoht]

I would also be cynical as it was stated that things like a combat log would not be implimented in the game in order to keep performance difficult to measure. They caved on that one pretty quickly though, so I would still say that you will see it in game, it stands to reason. Not saying proof, just saying it stands to reason. It equally stands to reason that it could be scrapped because of the very reason it was never implimented at launch.

[The_Jackal]

Originally Posted by Karoht

I would also be cynical as it was stated that things like a combat log would not be implimented in the game in order to keep performance difficult to measure. They caved on that one pretty quickly though, so I would still say that you will see it in game, it stands to reason. Not saying proof, just saying it stands to reason. It equally stands to reason that it could be scrapped because of the very reason it was never implimented at launch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

They didn't implement it because they had other priorities, like having missions that worked. Developer time isn't infinite.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by The_Jackal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

They didn't implement it because they had other priorities, like having missions that worked. Developer time isn't infinite.

Cough cough Ilum.

[Karoht]

Originally Posted by The_Jackal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

They didn't implement it because they had other priorities, like having missions that worked. Developer time isn't infinite.

I think you misunderstand me.
When I said 'it was stated that things like a combat log would not be implimented in the game in order to keep performance difficult to measure' I guess the word I was missing in there was 'ever.' I remember reading some of the stuff on the official forum explaining why they didn't want to EVER have a combat log. However, I'm going to caveat this by stating that I could be mistaken and could be thinking about a different game that said this.

IF it was indeed Bioware who said they NEVER wanted a combat log, and was now testing one, it stands to reason that the fact they are testing one means they may have reversed this stance. It also stands to reason that in testing it, they merely verify the reason they never wanted one in the first place.

Hence, Mangosta has plenty of reason to be cynical/suspicious that the feature will be implimented. It's odd (only slightly, they want to make people happy of course) that they reversed their stance (again, I may be mis-remembering here), and it's possible that the only reason they are testing it is to confirm their bias towards it.

I highly doubt they are testing with such a mindset mind you. If they were, they likely wouldn't test it publically.

[The Glyphstone]

So, when I open my game utility and sign in, I get an error that says 'this environment is unavailable for play'. According to the website, though, all the servers are up and running. What the Hutt?

oh. My prepaid time card ran out. Durrrrr.

[GungHo]

Originally Posted by Karoht

IF it was indeed Bioware who said they NEVER wanted a combat log, and was now testing one, it stands to reason that the fact they are testing one means they may have reversed this stance. It also stands to reason that in testing it, they merely verify the reason they never wanted one in the first place.

I want to remember that they were notionally opposed to combat logs, but I don't think they put out an official statement that drew a line in the sand. Then again, Bioware seems to have a spine made of cartilage lately when it comes to their customer base, so I wouldn't disbelieve that they did, either.

I do think that it might be cynical to the point of paranoia to believe that they'd pull it at this point, short of a massive performance hit or other bug, even given the lol Mass Effect 3 crap.

[Neftren]

I don't think a combat lag is absolutely mandatory. For me, it's a way for others to say "you aren't operating at 100% max DPS, therefore I kick you" without really thinking through "Okay, maybe he has a crapton of utility along with reasonably strong DPS."

The only thing a combat log would be helpful for is figuring out who got instagibbed by what ability. For instance, knowing why I instantly died on the Fabricator fight (was I standing in the nozzle blast radius? did a grenade knock me into mines?).

[Squark]

Originally Posted by Neftren

I don't think a combat lag is absolutely mandatory. For me, it's a way for others to say "you aren't operating at 100% max DPS, therefore I kick you" without really thinking through "Okay, maybe he has a crapton of utility along with reasonably strong DPS."

The only thing a combat log would be helpful for is figuring out who got instagibbed by what ability. For instance, knowing why I instantly died on the Fabricator fight (was I standing in the nozzle blast radius? did a grenade knock me into mines?).

They still aren't incorporating that sort of log; The current form can only be seen by other people if you yourself post it.

[Neftren]

Originally Posted by Squark

They still aren't incorporating that sort of log; The current form can only be seen by other people if you yourself post it.

Right, so let's say I'm an elitist guild leader... "Everyone, upload your logs now." Again, not saying my guild leader would do that, but that's certainly something Bioware is considering, judging the various responses on the forums.

[Karoht]

Originally Posted by GungHo

I want to remember that they were notionally opposed to combat logs, but I don't think they put out an official statement that drew a line in the sand. Then again, Bioware seems to have a spine made of cartilage lately when it comes to their customer base, so I wouldn't disbelieve that they did, either.

After a cursory google search, I can't find anything either. As I said, I maybe misremembering, or taking something that someone on a message board said out of context.

Originally Posted by Neftren

I don't think a combat lag is absolutely mandatory. For me, it's a way for others to say "you aren't operating at 100% max DPS, therefore I kick you" without really thinking through "Okay, maybe he has a crapton of utility along with reasonably strong DPS."

To be truthful, in all my years of playing that other mmo, I have never personally seen anyone kicked due to poor DPS. And I have seen some freaking BAD DPS in my time.

I have used the data to help troubleshoot other healers in the past, mostly by figuring out what abilities they leaned on the most and the least, or if they were using their cooldowns or not, that sort of jazz. 9 times out of 10, if someone is performing poorly, there is a perfectly normal reason (lag/computer/UI issues notwithstanding) and it can usually be found in the combat log. Our Melee DPS officer does exactly the same thing, as does our Range DPS officer.

Example:
We had a tank who just seemed squishier than most other tanks. He usually out-geared those tanks as well, so we couldn't figure out why he wasn't surviving better. Then we looked at combat log data. He wasn't using a core ability which accounted for quite a bit of his damage reduction.
So we asked him why. 2 reasons:
1-In previous tier of content, it was much less useful for the encounters there, so he ended up taking it off his bar, and forgot it existed.
2-At the start of the current tier of content, the ability had been buffed slightly, and he didn't read the patch notes.
One check of logs, one bit of research, one quick discussion, boom, problem solved, he went back to being awesome.

The only thing a combat log would be helpful for is figuring out who got instagibbed by what ability. For instance, knowing why I instantly died on the Fabricator fight (was I standing in the nozzle blast radius? did a grenade knock me into mines?).

This is what my guild in that other mmo uses our combat log and related addon's to analyze. See above for a similar example.

Poor use of a tool by elitist jerkwads doesn't mean the tool isn't worth having.
Inversely, cases of correct use of a tool probably doesn't justify the tool well enough to those who have been on the receiving end of poor usage of the tool. I'm curious to see how this turns out with a private log rather than a public one, if Bioware sticks to that route.

[Neftren]

Originally Posted by Karoht

To be truthful, in all my years of playing that other mmo, I have never personally seen anyone kicked due to poor DPS. And I have seen some freaking BAD DPS in my time.

I have. My guild just moved someone off the raiding roster for repeatedly wiping the raid. So, not necessarily "poor DPS" but...

Poor use of a tool by elitist jerkwads doesn't mean the tool isn't worth having.
Inversely, cases of correct use of a tool probably doesn't justify the tool well enough to those who have been on the receiving end of poor usage of the tool. I'm curious to see how this turns out with a private log rather than a public one, if Bioware sticks to that route.

I'm not wholly for or against the idea of a combat log. I think that's up to Bioware to decide, but sometimes abuse of a tool should mean that nobody gets it. Think of two children fighting over a toy. Well, maybe neither of them should have the toy.

You are probably right in that people who have been slighted by a tool would have a hard time accepting the inclusion of said tool. I too am curious as to how this turns out. After all, it isn't exactly a "personal" or "private" log at this point if it dumps to a textfile that other people can analyze.

Come to think of it, many arguments for/against combat logs also apply to Addons. Thoughts on those?

[Karoht]

Originally Posted by Neftren

I have. My guild just moved someone off the raiding roster for repeatedly wiping the raid. So, not necessarily "poor DPS" but...

Apples and Oranges. Standing in fire and not providing enough output (heals, dps, active mitigation for tanks) are not the same thing. Standing in fire/wiping the raid means the person isn't capable of handling the mechanics, or just needs coaching on how to handle those mechanics. Low numbers means the person isn't capable of hitting the right buttons at the right time, or just needs some coaching on what buttons to push and when. The two are entirely separate entities. You don't need an addon to tell you that person X is wiping the raid by not handling the mechanics correctly, though they help confirm it rather than it be a suspicion in some cases.

I'm not wholly for or against the idea of a combat log. I think that's up to Bioware to decide, but sometimes abuse of a tool should mean that nobody gets it. Think of two children fighting over a toy. Well, maybe neither of them should have the toy.

Better take away cars then. I'm being silly here, but you get the idea. I would have used guns as the example, but that might have accidentally turned into an arguement about gun control, which none of us are interested in I'm sure. My point is, there are plenty of people who drive cars safely, there are plenty of people who use combat log systems without negatively impacting other players. The fastest way to deal with those who do use combat log systems to negatively impact other players, is to not support those players.

Moreover, every good player knows there is more to the game than just the numbers. The numbers heavy judgement type players tend to use the numbers to out poor players or hide their own inability. I've run into so many healers like that over the years. Below is an actual conversation I had with another healer on the topic:
"But my numbers were the highest!"
"Thats nice, I'm proud of you and all, but your assigned healing target died, because according to log, you were too busy padding the meter healing other targets rather than healing yours. You were assigned one target, you didn't heal that target, and somehow you ran out of mana. I don't honestly care what the numbers say, there is an issue here."

Come to think of it, many arguments for/against combat logs also apply to Addons. Thoughts on those?

Depends on the addon. Entirely depends on the addon. UI altering addons are about choice. Even if the UI of a game is "fully customizeable" there will always be a customization option that someone else thinks of and wants to see implimented. If the developers want to let the community dictate that, so be it. I like the addon Healbot in WoW. Sure, I could create a complicated series of macro's to achieve the same effect. Or I can just hook up Healbot and configure it the way I like.

Stuff like Addons that provide warnings and timers for certain abilities are a bit hit and miss. Lets say that a boss has 4 abilities that are used at set intervals. Well, someone is going to figure out those intervals, either via datamining or by trial and error. Addon's that track these sorts of things are really nothing more than a complicated series of stopwatches. I could in theory set 4 alarms on my phone, I could have them in another window, I could have physical alarm clocks, or I could count it down out loud, or I could have it in game. If it provides enough of a competative advantage, someone is going to do this. Will the majority do so? Probably not. You're hardcore ultracompetative people likely will. Thats why these addons were invented in the first place.

Then you get addon's of convenience. I have one that opens all of my mail for me, it just saves me a lot of clicking is all it does. I have a similar addon for the Auction House, because buying 50 stacks of material X is a LOT of tedius clicking, this addon lets me do it remarkably faster. Yet again, another tool.

I had a friend who ran a soundtrack addon. You could set custom soundtrack options for certain game events. The game software would run it as though it was the normal soundtrack for that area/boss/event/etc.
He later switched to an addon that was basically an MP3 player built into the game. It offered him the convenience to change songs or music volume without having to tab out and mess with iTunes.

Plenty of addons are harmless, some provide features that would take up developer time to come up with. Some have more broadly reaching implications and effects, such as addons to analyze/parse the combat log into more usable data.

[GungHo]

Originally Posted by Neftren

Come to think of it, many arguments for/against combat logs also apply to Addons. Thoughts on those?

Quality of life addons would that allow me to add buttons or otherwise reconfigure the GUI, add meaningful annotations to detailed maps, sort/split inventory, or better work with the GTN would be great.

I'm a little less keen on things that automate the game.

[Karoht]

Originally Posted by GungHo

Quality of life addons would that allow me to add buttons or otherwise reconfigure the GUI, add meaningful annotations to detailed maps, sort/split inventory, or better work with the GTN would be great.

I'm a little less keen on things that automate the game.

Agreed. Automating the game is typically a bad thing. On the other hand, I put up about 200 separate entries of material X on the auction system per day. Yes, I would much rather automate the opening, closing, buying, and selling part. Mostly because it isn't gameplay, it's mundane junk, and the time I spend on it takes away from my gameplay. It's why I'm rather impressed by the profession system with SWTOR. It's automated, but it's gameplay, but all they really did was remove the obtrusive parts by automating it.

Gameplay is where automation should just plain not happen. Most addon's that I have knowledge of don't automate gameplay. Even boss ability timers aren't really automating things, you still have to prepare and react and recover and otherwise deal with the mechanics, it doesn't react for you.

As for immersion, I look at things like boss timers as just a visualization of my character's knowledge of the world and the current encounter. How does my character know these things? Rumor, careful observation, the force, sensors, 'a wizard did it', etc.