We already did this bit, Drew. You've narrowed the situation down to two choices:
1. Accept that the villagers probably aren't going to instigate a cover-up if it turns out that Reifennen's bag is full of dead babies, and that Reifennen is probably not going to go on a highly incriminating killing spree the moment your back is turned, and do what they ask.
2. Go on a highly incriminating killing spree.
Those are the same choices you had before. If you've really set your heart on option 2, then let's cut to the chase. You kill 1d10+n villagers. Indigo is killed, Sigurd loses a Fate Point and all credibility in accusing Reifennen of being a murderous bad guy, on account of being a murderous bad guy; he is beaten unconscious, gagged with a potato so he can't cast, and locked in a shed. Done?
If not, I guess you guys can continue to argue among yourselves IC. The villagers are simple folk; they don't have anything new to bring to the problem, and they are neither in a position where they can back down, nor one where they want to start a fight to the death in the Hofstadters' inn.
I guess I'm finding the situation hard to believe then.
The villagers are so abhorrent to the idea of letting Sigurd stand in the corner that they'd rather try fighting a wizard to the death? And somehow they think they would be way safer if they send him upstairs where they can't see him?
I mean, even OOC I've been assuming they're going to back down on this one. It's just too hard to believe that making Sigurd go to "time out" in his room is worth this much to them.
Am I missing something?
__________________
In real life I quit my job and left my home to become a professional adventurer. The Great Adventure
The villagers are so abhorrent to the idea of letting Sigurd stand in the corner that they'd rather try fighting a wizard to the death?
Let's turn this around: Sigurd is so abhorrent to the idea of being made to wait in his room that he'd rather fight the villagers to the death? Thereby not only losing his life, but failing in his mission, coming across as the villain, giving the Orders a bad reputation and getting his allies in trouble?
Quote:
Am I missing something?
The fact that you're massively outnumbered, and that while the threat of taking a few of the villagers down with you is not an empty one, there is no way you can win this fight.
Yes. It's not about what you're asking, it's about the power politics of the situation.
If Sigurd refuses their 'authority', and the villagers back down because he threatens them with deadly force, then they are
A) admitting to Sigurd
and
B) admitting to themselves
that they don't have the resolve and/or the capability to stop him doing whatever he pleases.
They have no backup, no watchmen or soldiers. They have precious little reason to trust Sigurd - in fact, they're holding both Reifennen and the party on suspicion of the same crime. If Sigurd is guilty then he might have all kinds of ulterior motives for wanting to stand over the doctor (intimidation? Tampering with the evidence? Taking the opportunity to silence him and then running for the hills?), but they're not really thinking about it that deeply. They just know that right now the only thing standing between what is potentially a murderous warlock and their loved ones in the next cottage is their ability to say 'no'.
I really don't like having to explain my NPCs' motivations; it gives everyone OOC knowledge that there's really no reason to share. What's more, Drew, I feel that the only person who ever raises these questions is you - and to me it carries the direct implication that you either think I'm doing a shoddy job, or that I'm deliberately victimising the group. You're fine with your PCs displaying totally uncompromising bravery at the drop of a hat; I don't understand why you have a problem when NPCs turn out to have some courage too.
EDIT: And Chris' post below says everything else there is to say, better than I could. If you want a play-by-play evolution of the villagers' viewpoint that I've been holding in my head, it's that.
Yes Drew. I think they might. I can even see plenty of reasons why.
1: We've been acting more noticeably crazy than the doctor, throwing wild accusations about and making odd requests and demands. We've been all over town doing strange things for reasons they don't understand. The doctor has been mostly stationary doing things behind closed doors.
2: We have one confessed wizard in our party, who has attempted to cast spells on them in their presence.
3: We have two elves, who are considered shady and not to be trusted by most folks. (Also, they may suspect that we're witches too... they'd be half right)
4: A great deal of their troubles started upon our arrival into town. Granted, this one applies to the doc too, but give the other reasons here, it shifts easier onto us.
5: The doctor was spoken for by a fairly well-regarded man who is trusting him with his daughter's life. While the number of people who will vouch for us may not even include Leopold anymore.
6: We're a large group all "ganging up" on one individual, making us seem like bullies. Combined with #2 and #3 makes it worse, as we're outsiders and people of far different professions they don't trust or understand picking on a more "normal" man who is much more like themselves.
7: Our group has resorted to violence already, against the doc and against them. (Ith's knife... Indigo) I know I would distrust the word of anyone who tried to stab me.
8: Their religion and upbringing makes fighting against chaos (which can be defined to include witches and elves easily enough by superstitious peasants) as a good thing. Sure, they don't wanna die, but in groups people can be remarkably brave, and plenty of folk might be willing to "die for what's right" to put down an obviously violent group of thugs, witches and possible cultists for the good of their town. Mobs have done more for less.
I'm not bashing you Drew, I promise. Just saying why I can totally see the reason why a bunch of villagers would heartily distrust us and be willing to risk death if we press them any farther. Illiiya doesn't get it, but I do. The fact that they haven't rallied together to string up ALL us troublesome outsiders is testament to them being reasonable, but if we push any more buttons they'll just assume us violent, stubborn, crazy folk who INSIST we know better than they do are the bad guys. We're making waves and unrest in their home, and refusing to listen to them in the least.
Illiiya gave up trying to watch the doctor because she can tell they're serious about not having any of that. We warned them, and what they do with that warning is up to them. It helps that she's a little... evil... and would get a dark "told you so" if the doc killed a few of them due to their own stupidity (in her opinion), but I don't think the villagers are being unreasonable. I don't know if you're a poker player hun... but if so... you know you have to fold a hand eventually right? Please don't get killed on us.
__________________
Anyone looking for awesome art, look no more! Check out my stuff here! I do comissions, for those interested. Catch me at this site: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rukis/
I really don't like having to explain my NPCs' motivations; it gives everyone OOC knowledge that there's really no reason to share. What's more, Drew, I feel that the only person who ever raises these questions is you
I feel that's unfair. I didn't start out asking about any of their motivations. I made my decision in-character. I expected that you would then post their reaction: hopefully they would back down, or maybe this would go to heck.
Instead, you came to the OOC thread and basically asked me to change my character's decision. Which a GM may have very good reasons to do, but it certainly opens the door to a meta-conversation. Only then did I ask anything out of character.
Until you told me point-blank that they're not going to back down, I assumed at the very least one of them would tell Herwin to stand down, the same way Ill and Lothar just told me. Now I know that's not an option, but only because you offered me metagame information, which puts me in a very confusing and awkward position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LCP
to me it carries the direct implication that you either think I'm doing a shoddy job, or that I'm deliberately victimising the group
Pip, I've said before, and I still believe, that you are an amazing GM. With that said, the past month or so of gameplay has been extremely frustrating for me.
This isn't the first time we've been captured and forced to go somewhere. It's also not the first time we've been falsely accused of a crime and treated like villains. It's hard to game when feel like you have no control and you're not being heroic.
To top it off, I have no idea what to do in this situation. There's no right decision. I understand why the other characters feel it's smarter to go upstairs. I totally do. But there's a boiling pot of reasons why every option here is a bad option.
So, I don't know what to do. I literally made Sigurd's choice with random die rolls, as you saw.
If you're asking me to go upstairs because making a stand will de-rail the game, of course I will go upstairs. If that's what you mean then please just tell me that. I don't mean to ruin your plot or anyone's fun.
Other than that, right now I feel completely stuck.
__________________
In real life I quit my job and left my home to become a professional adventurer. The Great Adventure
(Oh, how I hate when this becomes player/player grievances...)
Pip is not asking you to change your decision, Drew. He merely wants you to understand why the villagers refuse to back down. That's what was confusing you, wasn't it?
If you want to make a stand, go right ahead, none of us is going to stop you (OOC, that is - IC is another story). Our GM is just saying there's no point in continuing the argument, since the villagers have made it clear they will not be swayed. If neither will Sigurd, then a fight is inevitable. Just start it yourself in this case, because words aren't getting us anywhere.
Quote:
Until you told me point-blank that they're not going to back down, I assumed at the very least one of them would tell Herwin to stand down
It had ample time to happen, yet it didn't. Just how long would Sigurd have argued before he figured it out?
Quote:
This isn't the first time we've been captured and forced to go somewhere. It's also not the first time we've been falsely accused of a crime and treated like villains. It's hard to game when [you] feel like you have no control and you're not being heroic.
Every time we were captured or treated like villains, it was as a result of our own decisions: Raffy killing Jagrun, Raffy and Pieter trying to break Illiiya out of her cell, Pieter leading a group of Hounds into the Skaven's lair, and now Ithelus shooting the doctor. Sometimes, in-game as in real life, we make decisions that narrow our options and leave us without an easy way out. But we always have some level of control.
In THAM, when Pieter found himself unarmed and alone with Morsleek, and Morsleek decided he had no reason to let him live, Pieter was practically guaranteed to die. But he still had options, none of them good. I had him attack Morsleek, knowing it was suicide, and sure enough, he lost a Fate Point. But it's not Pip who brought him into that hopeless situation. I did, the moment Pieter volunteered to show the Hounds the entrance to the lair and insisted to come with them. So I had no grounds to complain.
Sigurd is perfectly free to fight the villagers, you know. But there will be consequences, and it's not Pip's fault.
Really sorry if it looks like we're all turning against you - we're not. But an explanation was needed, because honestly, you're doing Pip an injustice.
Sentinel: I read Pip's "jesus wept" post as telling me I should change my action. That is a separate & earlier post from the one explaining their motivation.
I see no player vs player grievance here.
Destro: My action so far has been the third option, just stand there and refuse to move.
__________________
In real life I quit my job and left my home to become a professional adventurer. The Great Adventure
If you don't take action, the villagers will. *shrug* One way or another, I'm confident Pip will sort this out if it drags any longer.
My stated action was to stand there and refuse to move. If Herwin attacks, then it will trigger a fight; if he doesn't, I guess we stare at each other and wind down the clock till Verloren shows up.
Or at least, that was my original intention, but I'm waiting to hear back from Pip now.
__________________
In real life I quit my job and left my home to become a professional adventurer. The Great Adventure
Well whatever goes down, Illiiya is headed upstairs. Good luck.
__________________
Anyone looking for awesome art, look no more! Check out my stuff here! I do comissions, for those interested. Catch me at this site: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rukis/
It’s not a question of plot, it’s a question of playability. Yes, I am bringing the metagame into it here: I don’t want to bog the thread down in a 2-week combat because Sigurd was being stubborn.
Gabriel’s right though – I can sort this out, I’ve just not been thinking flexibly enough. Tunnel vision after the scene outside the Faulebrands’, I guess. You don’t have to change anything, I will update tonight.
That leaves one paragraph in your post which I still feel I should address:
Quote:
This isn't the first time we've been captured and forced to go somewhere. It's also not the first time we've been falsely accused of a crime and treated like villains. It's hard to game when feel like you have no control and you're not being heroic.
Gabriel’s post above answers the first sentence as well as I could. However, the last two sentences give me cause for concern. This is WFRP. What was it about those things that you weren’t expecting?
This is an article (written in response to another article) written by one of the authors of The Enemy Within, WFRP’s defining published campaign. This is the bit I want to quote (emphasis mine):
Quote:
D&D is about quests for glory and riches; WFRP pretends to be the same, but in fact is about the PCs' day-to-day fight for survival in a universe that hates them. If you don't finish each adventure worse off than when you started it, your GM is doing something wrong. If you find yourself in a WFRP adventure and not knee-deep in **** then duck, because another load is past due.
This campaign is low, dark fantasy. It’s been unashamedly so since the recruitment thread for THAM. You’ve shed blood for gold, you’ve got infections fighting rats in a muddy hole, you’ve been hounded (ba-dum-tsh) by corrupt authority figures. Some of you have killed or caused the deaths of genuinely innocent people. The NPCs aren’t any better. Can you name an NPC in THAM who you can honestly say was a hero? Can you identify a side of ‘good guys’ in the Delberz conflict?
The one thing I understand is that it’s no fun to play a game where you’re not in control... but I think a really important caveat there is, most of the time. PC autonomy is as important to me as it is to you, but at the same time, I’m trying to give the impression that you guys are tiny, crushable parts of a huge, dangerous and uncaring world. If you make unwise decisions and antagonise the wrong people, you are going to find events spiralling out of your control.
This is the theme of both the game system and the campaign. It’s not to make the PCs feel like heroes. It’s to tell the story of how they ended up doing the job when it turned out that there were no heroes available, and how everyone spat on them anyway, because no-one said the universe was fair.
I’m fairly sure this is what the others signed up for, both when they read my recruitment spiel and when they saw WFRP in the title. It suddenly sounds like your expectations are drastically different.
EDIT: Update is up. Have also updated the minor NPCs spoiler in post #2 of this thread.
Pip, I can't help but feel you're upset personally, and I'm sorry.
I accept the dark, gritty, and shades of grey elements of WFRP. In fact I'm enthusiastic about them (really). I get that there will not be glory or a stainless happy ending.
However, if those elements take away the sense of player control then they spoil the fun that can be had in this sort of setting.
You asked if I feel you're doing a shoddy job or intentionally punishing us. I don't think either of those things, but lately I have felt - probably by no intention on your part - that we are herded into particularly one-sided situations.
Off the top of my head, there were three times in TLOLH when I feel player choice had no impact. Each situation was believable. But there are alternate, equally believable ways to set up a scene that makes it seem like there is more than one choice.
When there is only one acceptable choice in a scenario, I don't feel like I'm playing a game. If it happens occasionally I shrug and life goes on. If it feels like a trend I get frustrated.
So, again, I'm sorry. I didn't mean for this to become a personal issue or OOC issue. I'm saying all this because I think it's better to be honest. I'd rather talk it out than feel alienated from my favourite gaming group - and this is my favourite* group.
*British spelling shows my love for you
__________________
In real life I quit my job and left my home to become a professional adventurer. The Great Adventure
Off the top of my head, there were three times in TLOLH when I feel player choice had no impact.
Quote:
only one acceptable choice in a scenario
Can I have the list, please? I would like to be able to look back and see what I can do better - or at least identify what I'm doing differently to before.
I accept the dark, gritty, and shades of grey elements of WFRP. In fact I'm enthusiastic about them (really). I get that there will not be glory or a stainless happy ending.
If you do accept these elements, then maybe stop complaining about them. This is at least the second, if not the fourth, time that you have been upset because you don't feel 'heroic' enough.
Well, I'm sorry Drew, but WFRP doesn't really do 'heroes'. Kind of like reality. It's a grim, nutty, dark fantasy world out there and there aren't any big damn heroes. Just folk.
Quote:
Off the top of my head, there were three times in TLOLH when I feel player choice had no impact. Each situation was believable. But there are alternate, equally believable ways to set up a scene that makes it seem like there is more than one choice.
I'd like to see this list as well, 'cause I've been playing this game just as long as you have and I have never felt that way. Not once.
__________________ Games:
[WFRP] The Lord of Lost Heart, reprising Lothar Fischer, Nordlander deserter.
I personally haven't felt anything was done poorly. I had a bit of a snag for a while finding my motivation and trying to figure out what to do, but that was mostly due to drama in my real life that kinda overwhelmed me.
__________________
Anyone looking for awesome art, look no more! Check out my stuff here! I do comissions, for those interested. Catch me at this site: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rukis/
Sorry guys - was out this evening and shovelling data all day, so no update this evening. This came out today, which has my experiment in a bit of a fluster... look's like we've been pipped to the post. Bloody earthquakes.
Your scheduled programme of people staring suspiciously at doctors will resume tomorrow.
That's actually a fairly small authors list for a high-energy physics paper. You should see something from CMS or one of the other big LHC collaborations.
I'm used to the humanities, of course, where having more than two or three authors is unusual. From my Science! days, I remember biology and psychology papers, and I think the largest number of co-authors I ever saw there was about seven or nine or so.
So what I am saying is that I guess I can understand why your department made you do that teamwork nonsense. Lots of cats to herd, there.
__________________ Games:
[WFRP] The Lord of Lost Heart, reprising Lothar Fischer, Nordlander deserter.
I'm used to the humanities, of course, where having more than two or three authors is unusual. From my Science! days, I remember biology and psychology papers, and I think the largest number of co-authors I ever saw there was about seven or nine or so.
I think the largest for a psych paper that I've cited is 12...
What impresses me is how such a multinational team can author something so technical together. Truly, science knows no borders.
So many equations... When I was a kid, I loved reading encyclopedias and wanted to become a scientist1. Little did I realize how much actual science relied on math.
1 Like many kids, I had a long palaeontology phase. I saw Jurassic Park more times than I can count and would have sold my soul for a pet 'raptor.
I don't mind math so much... which is nice, as it tends to be the foundation for most hard science. In fact, in a way... math is the foundation of EXISTENCE ITSELF! *dramatic thunderclap*
In any case, I'm sure that paper would be very interesting if my computer didn't freeze every time I try to open it.
__________________
Anyone looking for awesome art, look no more! Check out my stuff here! I do comissions, for those interested. Catch me at this site: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rukis/
I'm also sorry that everyone's update is going to be delayed by another day. I have something like a three-day update plan that I sketched out at work in my back pocket, but I am considerably too drunk to actually post anything from it. I know that I owe you guys! But when the head of particle physics at RAL and your supervisor are buying you drinks, you can't really say no. I was going home on the tube and I woke up in Plaistow.
Tomorrow, I promise. Tomorrow is a Saturday and I have nothing on until the evening.
I'm also sorry that everyone's update is going to be delayed by another day. I have something like a three-day update plan that I sketched out at work in my back pocket, but I am considerably too drunk to actually post anything from it. I know that I owe you guys! But when the head of particle physics at RAL and your supervisor are buying you drinks, you can't really say no. I was going home on the tube and I woke up in Plaistow.
Tomorrow, I promise. Tomorrow is a Saturday and I have nothing on until the evening.
I think that's unacceptable. Seriously I'm not happy Pip. You just implied that if it's not someone important it's ok to turn down free drink. That sir, is wrong. Fact. Never turn down free alcohol.
RSS Feeds: 
Re: [WFRP] The Lord of Lost Heart OOC (II)
