LGBTAitP - Part 21: BLACKJACK!

[Cobra_Ikari]

Originally Posted by Astrella

But not on a group level. And as I said, the whole point about the phrase isn't whether it's a threat or not (because it very much is one), but rather the dozens reasons I gave earlier.

What you're doing is giving excuses for why you think it's ok for trans people to threaten cis people. And what I'm saying is that there is no situation that makes threatening violence ok.

[Astrella]

I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I said on multiple occasions that I don't condone violence or the actual threat.

(And yes, I find that very hurtful insinuating that I'm approving of violence here.)

And I really hope you guys all go out of your way to call out trans hate in other places as well if you're getting so defensive over this.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Originally Posted by Astrella

I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I said on multiple occasions that I don't condone violence or the actual threat.

And I really hope you guys all go out of your way to call out trans hate in other places as well if you're getting so defensive over this.

...I get upset about any kind of hate, in any direction. But I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying.

This is, by the way, the same topic that led to me flipping out at a former friend and informing them that I couldn't speak to them anymore (that is, the idea that threats of violence can and should be made based on being in a situation where someone else has privilege), so I don't know that it was a good idea for me to come into this.

[Castaras]

Okay then, let's take it from the other side then. Group threats result in mob and pack mentality where the more of you there are, the stronger you feel - thus you have a greater capacity to bring the violence you're threatening.

It means bugger all if it's group or individual. Both are wrong, and both cause harm both to your cause and physical harm to the poor people who get on the wrong end of whichever group of nondescript people decide to attack people - with words or with physical methods.

[Heliomance]

Originally Posted by Astrella

I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I said on multiple occasions that I don't condone violence or the actual threat.

(And yes, I find that very hurtful insinuating that I'm approving of violence here.)

And I really hope you guys all go out of your way to call out trans hate in other places as well if you're getting so defensive over this.

When we see it, I imagine we would. I can't speak for everyone, though, but this is about the only place I come across these issues. Trans folk are such a minority, it's really not something that comes up in day-to-day life unless you're personally involved. Heck, I'm walking around campus dressed as a woman half the time now, and I haven't come across any trans hate. Yes, I get that that makes me very lucky, but the point still stands that most people probably won't encounter any trans hate to call out.

We're not trying to put words in your mouth, but whatever your personal views on the matter, you have been defending the sentiment. Cobra and I, and probably others, think that it's indefensible, just as much as if it had said "Die trans scum".

There's also the fact that everyone is more vocal on the Internet, because there are no reprisals. It's easy to condemn someone saying "die <x> scum" on the Internet. Confronting the type of person that would say that in real life, though, about any target? Much scarier.

[Astrella]

I haven't been defending the sentiment, I've been defending the use of the phrase as a kickstarter for discussion.

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by Astrella

I haven't been defending the sentiment, I've been defending the use of the phrase as a kickstarter for discussion.

Well, we certainly have a discussion going on about it now!

*hugs*

[Nix Nihila]

I understand the sentiment that it would be nice if non-minority groups could empathize a bit better with some of the threats and dangers that minority groups have to go through. But, like others have said, I don't think it's acceptable to threaten violence against non-minority groups in order to open their eyes to that sort of thing, nor do I think it's going to be particularly effective.

(I'm not directing that at you, Astrella. I can see where you're coming from even if it isn't how I would've expressed the idea.)

Hugs to Astrella, Asta, and everyone else. Let's maybe not continue in this direction since it's likely to end in hurt feelings, I think.

[Musashi]

Okay, so first of all, I apologize for bringing that topic here without thinking through my ensuing reactions or anybody else's. I hope I'm the only one who got upset by it.
Secondly, I'm at least glad other people are sharing my sentiment and describing it more eloquently than I did.
Thirdly, I've calmed down and feel better, but I've got chores to do, so I'll come back later. I'm spending too much time on the Internet anyway.

[Heliomance]

Originally Posted by Astrella

I haven't been defending the sentiment, I've been defending the use of the phrase as a kickstarter for discussion.

That's the thing, though - for whatever reason, you've been defending the use of the phrase, whereas we're saying that using that phrase is indefensible for any reason.

Also, the original context was not "So, hypothetically, to turn things on their head, what would your reactions be to the phrase "die, cis scum"?" That would be using it to kickstart discussion. The original context was this:

If you are cis, do my tattoo and jacket make you feel uncomfortable? I can only hope so.

...

Die cis scum. It is hostile. It’s aggression, on my part. It is a whisper of personal agency. When the cissexism and transphobia of this culture crush in, overwhelming and unstoppable, these three words are how I push back.

Would that I could push harder.

That's not kickstarting discussion. That's threatening the world.

[Astrella]

I don't know the original context; I just picked up stuff from Natalie's blogs and earlier mentions of it in other places and some own interpretations.

I never thought I'd wish for the thread to go back to ignoring what I have to say...

[Asta Kask]

a) I don't think it will scare of many indifferents. How many people know what 'cis' means?

b) I can understand that a member of a hunted group feels this way. This does not mean it is morally acceptable.

c) The reason I think it's unacceptable is because it treats people primarily as faceless members of a group, not as individuals with quirks and perks.

d) This is what we need to do with this discussion:

Spoiler

[TechnoScrabble]

Originally Posted by Arachu

Huh. I pay attention to everything too, but that's because I grew up thinking I had bad memory. The headache isn't that bad, but man do things get noisy on bad days.

... Still worth it.



Damn, you must be tougher than a boot. I just freak people out by talking about things that disturb them (or having long hair, curiously enough). *brofist*

Yeah, being a ginger is pretty rough.

And speaking of boots, I got a new pair of steel shod ones today, complete with hobnails for leaving extra dents in the heads I kick! WAAAAAGH!

ALSO!
I had never used the term cis used before until reading this thread, so I thought you meant the droid armies the separatist systems had in Star Wars: Battlefront.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Having just gone and read the comments on "Shut Up, That's Why", I have to say that I'm more inclined to agree with your point of view than a lot of the others

Truly, that is the best of titles. The only superior title would require penguins or pandas or something. Maybe PONIES. Maybe.

[Arachu]

Originally Posted by KenderWizard

This is great!! As far as I'm concerned, though, there's no such thing as Jhoto. And there are only 153 Pokemon. (Mewtwo counts as one of the 150, then there's Mew, Togepi and that bird Ash saw on his very first day.)

That one's Ho-oh (I forget the capitalization). Fire/Flying type, really powerful attacks.

I followed the games, so I count up to Gold/Silver/Stadium 2.

Originally Posted by Musashi

(No, I'm not angry against any of you. I'm just not feeling very good, and I know I'm not going to contribute to this conversation in any meaningful or positive way anymore until I calm down.) Geez. It's the first time a discussion here has such an effect on me. What's wrong with me?

*Hugs* Nothing wrong with getting worked up once in a while. Hope you feel better soon/now. :/

Originally Posted by Astrella

*hugs*
(This is just going to end with us replying to hugs with hugs for the rest of the thread in an endless chain isn't it? )

*Glomp*

(... Not sure if that broke the sequence or not... )

Oh, and I forgot the most important thing. *HUGS ASTA*

I second the motion. *Hugs Asta*

Heh, politics. n.n

I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I said on multiple occasions that I don't condone violence or the actual threat.

(And yes, I find that very hurtful insinuating that I'm approving of violence here.)

And I really hope you guys all go out of your way to call out trans hate in other places as well if you're getting so defensive over this.

*Hugs* I can see where you're coming from. Statements like that don't usually garner much more than arguments, but they're still valid statements.

I think the other posters aren't defending so much as they're opposing threats in general, though. Discussions tend to... Decompose, when violence is implied. It doesn't take much to catalyze an 'us vs. them' scenario, and that's sort of what we're needing to end...

I never thought I'd wish for the thread to go back to ignoring what I have to say...

But your statements are so thought-provoking...

Originally Posted by TechnoScrabble

And speaking of boots, I got a new pair of steel shod ones today, complete with hobnails for leaving extra dents in the heads I kick! WAAAAAGH!

Ah, man! My boots just have rubber soles and composite toes...

'Course, I also have a knife the length of my forearm...


...Also, I love Battlefront.

[Coidzor]

That reminds me. I'm missing a reading of LGBT poetry today at the local community writing center due to not having wheels at the moment. Also, weather.

[Astrella]

Originally Posted by Arachu

That one's Ho-oh (I forget the capitalization). Fire/Flying type, really powerful attacks.

I followed the games, so I count up to Gold/Silver/Stadium 2.



*Hugs* Nothing wrong with getting worked up once in a while. Hope you feel better soon/now. :/



*Glomp*

(... Not sure if that broke the sequence or not... )

... >.> <.< *glomps*

*Hugs* I can see where you're coming from. Statements like that don't usually garner much more than arguments, but they're still valid statements.

I think the other posters aren't defending so much as they're opposing threats in general, though. Discussions tend to... Decompose, when violence is implied. It doesn't take much to catalyze an 'us vs. them' scenario, and that's sort of what we're needing to end...

My way of putting was off; Iunno, I think it's important to see the reasoning behind statements in order to properly understand the why and whats. I don't approve of any threat or violence what so ever, I just felt that the phrase had merit as a starter for a discussion. I'm sorry for upsetting people, that really wasn't my intention.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Astrella

My way of putting was off; Iunno, I think it's important to see the reasoning behind statements in order to properly understand the why and whats. I don't approve of any threat or violence what so ever, I just felt that the phrase had merit as a starter for a discussion.

And that's still something you're going to find to be contentious, as this was something that people were telling you that they disagreed with you on, stringently.

As I mentioned via PM, defending the phrase at all means you're condoning the use of the phrase, which is what people have been objecting to, on the grounds that it should not be used in any context or defended upon any grounds.

On the personal level, I imagine that there are much better avenues to pursue for starting the kind of discussion you want to happen than latching onto hatred and murder-fantasies.

edit: About the only defensible use I can think of for using the phrase for anything like what you appear to want to do with it would be if one were discussing how some trans individuals are driven to revenge fantasies and resentment of all cis people to the point where they actually say or agree with such things as "die cis scum." Though this more tackles the problem of the actual negative feelings themselves anyway, as it underscores how it's not truly legitimate speech or thought, being pure revenge fantasy, and a bloody-minded one at that.

One would then have to then address both the (proposed) fundamental cause of alienation as well as the choice to allow the alienation to make one's self bitter and over time twist one's inner self to the point where an otherwise reasonable person would believe such a thing.

[Arachu]

Originally Posted by Astrella

... >.> <.< *glomps*

... *Hugs*

Originally Posted by Coidzor

And that's still something you're going to find to be contentious, as this was something that people were telling you that they disagreed with you on, stringently.

As I mentioned via PM, defending the phrase at all means you're condoning the use of the phrase, which is what people have been objecting to, on the grounds that it should not be used in any context or defended upon any grounds.

On the personal level, I imagine that there are much better avenues to pursue for starting the kind of discussion you want to happen than latching onto hatred and murder-fantasies.

But ultimately, it's a statement. Whether it's right or not, it's valid. I'm of the opinion that it should be considered to the same extent that any other statement should be.

I don't think that violence would accomplish anything in this matter, but excluding the violent altogether... Well, it's what bigots do to us. Besides, there doesn't seem to be any indication that the person has acted on the fantasy, or even that they intend to. S/he could just be angry and verbally lashing out.

[Coidzor]

Arachu with regards to Astrella concerning "die cis scum."

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Arachu

But ultimately, it's a statement. Whether it's right or not, it's valid.

Suffice to say that you're going to find more than transphobes and bigots who disagree with you on that count. If I am correct in my reading, other members of this thread have pre-emptively disagreed with you.

Originally Posted by Arachu

I'm of the opinion that it should be considered to the same extent that any other statement should be.

In that case it would be dismissed as needless sensationalism that is mostly just going to get more important messages lost if it were actually used outside of the community or spread within the community to the extent that it crowded out more constructive thoughts.

Originally Posted by Arachu

I don't think that violence would accomplish anything in this matter, but excluding the violent altogether... Well, it's what bigots do to us.

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that fully and properly. If you're not trying to redirect, correct, or alleviate the sheer negativity of people who actively harbor violent urges rather than passively simmering in impotent bloody-mindedness, then you're at the very least tacitly embracing and condoning any violent acts that they carry out, last I checked. This is a bad and undesirable thing, generally speaking.

My understanding is that one is better served by redirecting that energy into something constructive rather than dwelling in the negative, which is what thoughts of murder and death are generally agreed to be, though I'm not certain how much more could be said without waxing either needlessly philosophical or political.

Originally Posted by Arachu

Besides, there doesn't seem to be any indication that the person has acted on the fantasy, or even that they intend to. S/he could just be angry and verbally lashing out.

The fact that someone hasn't acted on a fantasy, even if it's a bad sign that they have such a fantasy in the first place, makes everything A-OK?

The fact that someone is angry and verbally lashing out means they're above reproach or correction? A bit of a dangerous thought, that, considering how many bigots are "just angry and verbally lashing out."

[Astrella]

I suggest reading the comments on Natalie's blog as well.

---------------------------------------------

In other news; hormones or SRS are no longer a requirement to change your legal gender in the Netherlands anymore. (nor do you have to be sterilized.) I'm sorta hoping this is following the Sweden example and make things easier in a lot of places.

(Qaera's jealous, so I'm not sure if I'm allowed to hug you anymore, Arachu. So, *threesome hug*)

[Asta Kask]

Originally Posted by Astrella

I suggest reading the comments on Natalie's blog as well.

---------------------------------------------

In other news; hormones or SRS are no longer a requirement to change your legal gender in the Netherlands anymore. (nor do you have to be sterilized.) I'm sorta hoping this is following the Sweden example and make things easier in a lot of places.

(Qaera's jealous, so I'm not sure if I'm allowed to hug you anymore, Arachu. So, *threesome hug*)

Do you have an English link for that?

[Arachu]

Regarding the "Die cis scum" debate:

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Coidzor

Suffice to say that you're going to find more than transphobes and bigots who disagree with you on that count. If I am correct in my reading, other members of this thread have pre-emptively disagreed with you.


In that case it would be dismissed as needless sensationalism that is mostly just going to get more important messages lost if it were actually used outside of the community or spread within the community to the extent that it crowded out more constructive thoughts.


Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that fully and properly. If you're not trying to redirect, correct, or alleviate the sheer negativity of people who actively harbor violent urges rather than passively simmering in impotent bloody-mindedness, then you're at the very least tacitly embracing and condoning any violent acts that they carry out, last I checked. This is a bad and undesirable thing, generally speaking.

My understanding is that one is better served by redirecting that energy into something constructive rather than dwelling in the negative, which is what thoughts of murder and death are generally agreed to be, though I'm not certain how much more could be said without waxing either needlessly philosophical or political.


The fact that someone hasn't acted on a fantasy, even if it's a bad sign that they have such a fantasy in the first place, makes everything A-OK?

The fact that someone is angry and verbally lashing out means they're above reproach or correction? A bit of a dangerous thought, that, considering how many bigots are "just angry and verbally lashing out."

All good points, but in my experience being told to shut up doesn't pacify anyone. Neither does being told that you're wrong in every sense of the word just for taking a harsh tone.

I doubt that the person who made the comment was thinking very hard about it, but that doesn't mean that they're receptive to being corrected. Just making him or her angrier will only perpetuate it.

(It's worth noting that I probably read more sharply than I mean to - I'm merely advocating neutrality. I actually disagree with the statement, but I'm defending statements in general.)

Originally Posted by Astrella

I suggest reading the comments on Natalie's blog as well.

---------------------------------------------

In other news; hormones or SRS are no longer a requirement to change your legal gender in the Netherlands anymore. (nor do you have to be sterilized.) I'm sorta hoping this is following the Sweden example and make things easier in a lot of places.

Really? This bodes well.

(Qaera's jealous, so I'm not sure if I'm allowed to hug you anymore, Arachu. So, *threesome hug*)

:sadfa-wait, do what now?:

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Arachu

Regarding the "Die cis scum" debate:

Spoiler

All good points, but in my experience being told to shut up doesn't pacify anyone. Neither does being told that you're wrong in every sense of the word just for taking a harsh tone.

Spoiler

How convenient that I never espoused that course of action, then! Indeed, as far as I can tell, I haven't actually been 'speaking' here to anyone who was actively espousing the belief in the phrase "die cis scum!"

Then again, I'm relatively certain that saying it seriously here would be rather poor decision anyway.

Besides, your proposed solution seems to be to actively embrace their hatred and bigotry, if you'll recall. That's just a plain bad idea that promulgates their hatred through others who would be on the fence and is a poisonous, poisonous thing. Because, y'know, hate.

Originally Posted by Arachu

I doubt that the person who made the comment was thinking very hard about it, but that doesn't mean that they're receptive to being corrected. Just making him or her angrier will only perpetuate it.

Just because someone is not receptive to being corrected, that doesn't mean one shouldn't do so, and there's a variety of ways that one could do so which I haven't even touched upon in the slightest. And an ally or fellow confronting their bad thoughts is not guaranteed to perpetuate it, besides while flubbing it might drive them away from potential support sources, actively embracing them saying it and their violent urges certainly isn't going to help them or whoever it is that is embracing them.

Originally Posted by Arachu

(It's worth noting that I probably read more sharply than I mean to - I'm merely advocating neutrality. I actually disagree with the statement, but I'm defending statements in general.)

You have rather come off as at least a bit partisan so far by defending the statement as valid simply because it is a statement, especially when so far it's mostly been shot down on grounds of it being inflammatory and counter-productive, which is to say, the statement fails on its own lack of merit.

Though, to be frank, Arachu, your position of defending all statements merely because they have been made is a very dangerous position to take in the first place, as I alluded to earlier.

One of the main problems with it is that once you've become obligated by it to start defending bigotry by people on your own side, you're indirectly defending bigotry by people on the opposite side. And if one continues down that road, it's not long until there's bigotry on the walls, bigotry on the ceiling, bigotry on the neighbour's dog. Bigotry all up on everything.

[Astrella]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Do you have an English link for that?

Sorry, only a Dutch one. I can link it and google translate or something might help you out?

[Asta Kask]

Originally Posted by Astrella

Sorry, only a Dutch one. I can link it and google translate or something might help you out?

Hmm... I have very limited confidence in GoogleTranslate. Thanks anyway.

[Heliomance]

Guys? I could use some support.
I've gone home for the weeekend, just arrived. I'm planning on coming out to my parents, and while I didn't dress in full girl mode, I'm definitely dressed feminine. When I got in, I discovered my sister has friends over. Not only that, my brother, who is the only one who's seen me since I took my coat off, looked at me and went "Why have you shaved, why have you got a ponytail, and why do you look like a transvestite?"
Then he asked if my response of "Thanks" was sarcastic.

My parents are wonderful and loving and supportive, and I can't imagine them having a problem with this once they've thought about it, but we're very much white middle class two cars a mortgage and a job, and I don't think the idea of transgenderism - let alone non-binary transgenderism - even registers on their radar. I can't see any way this conversation is going to not be seven different flavours of awkward. And I'm really regretting the decision to dress like this

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Not only that, my brother, who is the only one who's seen me since I took my coat off, looked at me and went "Why have you shaved, why have you got a ponytail, and why do you look like a transvestite?"
Then he asked if my response of "Thanks" was sarcastic.

That definitely sounds like a brother. To be fair to little brothers everywhere (as unnatural as that sounds), a sarcastic thanks isn't the most implausible response to that kind of ribbing. :/

Originally Posted by Heliomance

My parents are wonderful and loving and supportive, and I can't imagine them having a problem with this once they've thought about it, but we're very much white middle class two cars a mortgage and a job, and I don't think the idea of transgenderism - let alone non-binary transgenderism - even registers on their radar. I can't see any way this conversation is going to not be seven different flavours of awkward. And I'm really regretting the decision to dress like this

Well, what was your plan for your opening salvo? There might be some advice that could be given if it's known what you expect to open with and what you expect their initial reactions to various things would be and what they're most likely to latch on to.

How are you dressed anyway? You seem to imply that you're not in full-on dress mode, but you instantly got called out on transvestism.

[Asta Kask]

It may be awkward, yes, but this would happen whenever you were going to come out to them. The earlier you tell them the sooner you can get them educated in all things transgender. Now, I don't know your parents but if they are wonderful, loving and supportive then it's only a matter of time before they accept it. And that's where I say you should set your sights - acceptance. Understanding is a bonus, but it's not absolutely necessary. Sound ok?

*hug*

[Heliomance]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

That definitely sounds like a brother. To be fair to little brothers everywhere (as unnatural as that sounds), a sarcastic thanks isn't the most implausible response to that kind of ribbing. :/



Well, what was your plan for your opening salvo? There might be some advice that could be given if it's known what you expect to open with and what you expect their initial reactions to various things would be and what they're most likely to latch on to.

How are you dressed anyway? You seem to imply that you're not in full-on dress mode, but you instantly got called out on transvestism.

I didn't really have a plan, beyond letting my new appearance sink in and answering the inevitable (I assumed) "is there a reason behind this?" question from my mother. She already knows I've been having some gender identity issues, she copped to that a year or two ago. I was expecting to walk into the kitchen and my mum and maybe my sister to be there, and have a conversation. I wasn't expecting three of my sister's friends.

I'm wearing women's jeans and top. Mostly by not full girl mode I mean I'm not wearing a bra :/

I was aiming for androgyny. I guess I missed