Lets Tier Third Party Part 2: Advanced Player's Guide

[CowardlyPaladin]

Let me be frank, I LOVE third party stuff. I love it because it is always trying out new things, I love it because it takes D20 in a new direction, and I love it because they have absolutely no conception of what balance is. Third Party stuff is full of innovative ideas and creativity, complete with awful spelling/grammar and absolutely no conception of how the system works. Since I am such a fan of third party books and have taken to collecting them (when they cost about 4$ locally this isn't as impressive as iit sounds) I am curious about balancing them. I have no eye for balance in the least, I can tell that the Monk and Fighter are useless but to my eye the Wizard and Rogue look about even, so I turn to you, people of the playground to help me.

Empedocles went through a Herculean effort to categorize every single third party class in existence, which is a monster of a task. You can find the complete list here, http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...1#post13161141. However in the almost 500 classes, it can be easy to get overwhelmed, and I am not entirely sure if every Tier is correct. So I decided to assist him by doing it book by book. I choose to start with the selection of more recognized classes, because they are more likely to be read and slightly less likely to be horribly balanced.....yeah.....I have faith. So this is divided into 3 sections, Dragon Magazine Classes, Pathfinder non Core Classes, and Arcana Evolved Class. I will include Empedocles estimate of there Tier, and a brief description of what they do. If it is legal to do so I will also link you to there description, however that might not be possible, apologies before hand.

What I am interested in is

1) What is its tier assuming it is held up against 3.5 typical classes?

2) Why is it at that tier?


3) Would you incorporate any of these classes in your game? Are they entirely worthless, good idea that has been done better, or a surprising gem of brilliance.

4) how do they work in there own setting. This one I care less about, but obviously the Iron heros classes are not going to stand up to Core, but how do they stand up to each other?

Thanks for all of your help.



What needs to be done

Advanced Player's Manual
Again book I own, have no knowledge of the power level.

Spoiler

Eldritch Weaver: Tier 2, Some kind of alternate wizard I never got the hand of

Evangelist: Tier 3, A Cleric/Bard combo

Scout: Tier 4: The D&D scout class with alter self

Spell Master: Tier 1: A skill based caster

Thanemage: Tier 4: Your basic Gish

Warpriest: Tier 3: A weaker cleric

Psychic: Tier 4: Psion using an alternate system

Heroes of the Jade Oath

The Oriental Adventures of Arcana Evolved. I think I might be the only person in the entire world who actually bought this, so there is no tier selection because I have no talent for that sort of thing. Sadly I don't think it is legal to post the classes, but if it is please let me know

Spoiler

Demon Hunter: A Paladin/TOB like class which serves the Celestial Bureaucracy. Sort of a scholar/Exorcist mix. They fight all formes of creatures, with different types of subclasses for those who fight Undead, Outsiders, Fey ect, seems limited to mee, but what do I know about balance.

Enlightened Scholar: A confusian style Chi master who wants to learn everything in the world. A monk/Wizard/Skill monky combo

Kensai: We've all seen it before.

Kusa: A ninja variant with ALOT more abilities and a more Chinese flavor

Jade Monk: A slightly less terrible monk who draw on Charka

Totem Warrior: A spirit Warrior who draws from various animals. Melee fighter

Xia: A Paladin of there Ancestors

Done so far

Arcana Evolved

This is a different version of 3.75. I don't think these can be legally presented, but if I am wrong please let me know.

Spoiler

Akashic: Tier 4, A rogue like class that basically gets a massive amount of skill points. Like a hilarious amount. Fluff wise, they basically are able to tap into the collective subconscious of the world to draw upon different abilities.

Champion: Tier 5: A Paladin Variant who dedicate themselves to a special ideal, which can be something like Nature or Freedom. Personally in my games I have them tied to the Magic the Gathering Color system

GreenBound: Tier 2: A caster class that can draw both Arcane and Divine. Like with all Arcana Evolved Casters, they have alot more flexibility in there spells with things like Spell Templates and increased/decreased spell level, but limited spells. Most healing focused. Fluff wise are bit like caster Jedi, drawing from the collective life force

Magister: Tier 1, a Wizard with far more flexibility

Mage Blade: Tier 3: A typical Gish, whose only distinguishing feature is that there physical weapon has alot of small special abilities, like them being able to summon it at will

Oathsworn: Tier 5: A monk stand in, who aren't much better, they can use special rituals to increase there abilities, or take Oaths to gain special powers, like giving up drink for increased strenght ect.

Ritual Warrior: Tier 4 A master of Ritual magic, sort of like TOB before TOB, can perform elaborate rituals before battle to increase there powers.

Runethane: Tier 2: A rune focused caster class who focus mostly upon runic traps.

Unfettered: Tier 5: A swashbuckler wanna be, though it reminds me more of a Drizzt/Xena/Entari sort of feel. Basically your light infantry fighter, there main thing is that they can block really well.

Warmain: Tier 6: A replacement fighter I hear, I don't really know the difference

Witch: Tier 3: A caster who can draw upon the forces of nature. Extremely customizable, and a little Gishy. They can specalized like wizards into Iron Withc, Mind Witch, Sea Witch, Wind Witch, Winter Witch and Wood Witch, and can use there magic either with Words, Songs, Spirit, Storm, Fire, or Blade.

Arcana Evolved Explanations

Spoiler

Akashic: Tier 4. The damage output isn't great (but no one's is in melee compared to 3.5 due to how Power Attack works), but they have All The Skills. They also have memory-based buffs and information gathering. Just a bit down from the Factotum, really.
Champion: Tier 4 or 5. On par approximately with the Paladin. Limited by the fact that many of their cool powers are once-daily effects.
Greenbond: Tier 2. Full caster with somewhat limited spell selection, but access to all plant/positive energy spells is nothing to sneeze at. Also keep in mind that they can get access to various collections of complex spells with feats.
Mage Blade: Tier 3. Sort of a proto-Duskblade. Being a spellsword isn't as clean as with the Duskblade, but they've got some exclusive spells that allow for interesting effects. Plus their casting goes up to 7th at 20th level, so their spells are relevant without being crazy at the same time.
Magister: Tier 1. Some of the really crazy spells got moved into exotic. That said, with automatic complex access, full casting, feats that can grant access to handfuls of exotics at once, and the ability to swap around your list at an hour's notice, a magister would not be out of place with the god-casters of standard 3.x.
Oathsworn: Tier 5. Pretty much a monk with more text, enough so that even the fan community claimed that its 15th-level ability was "Eschew Sucking". (It's actually Refuse Spells, a copy/paste of the monk's SR.) They also get some combat rites (like the Ritual Warrior), but it's always too little at the levels they get them to make up for the class's flaws.
Ritual Warrior: Tier 4. The first incarnation of the concept that became ToB (ToB itself was the third incarnation, after this and Iron Heroes), this class is dragged down by the fact that its primary class feature (combat rites) consists of a bunch of daily-limited powers.
Runethane: Tier 1 or 2. Like the Mageblade, they have bardic casting (up to 7th at 20th). If you're familiar with all of the shenanigans a Zceryll-bound Binder can pull off, the Runethane will be very familiar. Except they don't just summon, but they can also pull out weird sorts of traps. They've also got access to spells with the runic descriptor; one of these is Explosive Runes. Another is Empower Rune, which can make your runes nastier so long as they're active. Finally, they get free access to the utterly broken runic spell template. (It makes saves against your spells key off Intelligence instead of other ability scores.)
Totem Speaker: Tier 3. Found in Transendence, this is some mishmash of bard-casting and 3.x's Totemist. Like the Akashic, it can get All The Skills, since its skill points key off Wisdom (its casting stat) instead of Intelligence.
Totem Warrior: Tier 3 or 4. Something of a nonmagical Ranger with benefits that key off your totem animal, plus an animal companion that scales nearly as well as a druid's. Each companion animal also eventually becomes size Large (or greater), so you can have fun using it as a mount.
Unfettered: Tier 4. A cross between a Fighter and a Rogue, with reduced sneak attack damage but full BAB and the capacity to dodge just about everything. Dual-wielding is also relatively decent here and easy for them to use well.
Warmain: Tier 4 or 5. Basically the Fighter but tankier. Their numbers can be bigger (except for Power Attack), but they generally come later than they should. They also get combat rites, but they have the slowest progression of any class that uses them - too little, too late.
Witch: Tier 3. They're the last of the bardic-casting classes, but also get full access to certain spells and special abilities based on some theme. They also have The Sight, which among other things has the bizarre capacity to give you someone else's classes and level as in-character knowledge.

Dragon Magazine Classes

I have not read any of these so I am going off other people's word here. I don't know where to find them, nor am I sure if it is legal, but if it is, please provide

Spoiler

CLASS	NUMBER	TIER	ROLE	NOTES
Mystic Ranger	336	3	Gish	A ranger with spellcasting from level 1. Can be combined with Sword of the Arcane Order for Tier 1 goodness up to level 10.
Bodyguard	310	5	Melee	A fighter who can select some special abilities instead of feats that make him more of a defensive character.
Commander	310	5	Melee	A fighter who can swap bonus feats for minor support abilities.
Corsair	310	5	Melee	A fighter who exchanges bonus feats for aquatically oriented abilities.
Exoticist	310	5	Melee	A fighter who has some unique abilities and gains proficiency with 4 exotic weapons at 1st level.
Fencer	310	5	Melee	A fighter with swashbuckling abilities, but who is limited to light armor.
Horseman	310	5	Melee	The fighter as a cavalryman.
Kensai	310	5	Melee	A fighter who can use a nerfed flurry of blows with a specific weapon.
Knight	310	5	Melee	Charging as a class.
Pugilist	310	5	Melee	A variant fighter based on unarmed combat.
Shield Bearer	310	5	Melee	Uses a shield, and is a fighter. That's all.
Survivalist	310	5	Melee	A fighter who tries to use ranger feats.
Targetteer	310	5	Ranged	A fighter with bonus feats and special abilities geared towards ranged combat.
Anarch	310	5	Melee	A paladin who hits objects instead of people and turns constructs.
Avenger	310	4	Melee	A paladin with a much-improved spell list.
Sentinel	310	4	Melee	A paladin who dispels evil. Pretty much identical to the original.
Incarnate	310	4	Melee	A paladin with an elemental theme.
Enforcer	310	4	Melee	A paladin that gains enchantment abilities.
Anti-Paladin	312	4	Melee	Blackguard as a base class.
Despot	312	4	Melee	Evil paladin who "oppresses" people.
Corruptor	312	4	Melee	An evil paladin themed around infiltration and, well, corruption.
Deathwalker	312	1	Caster	An alternate necromancer who gains an undead companion and some undead themed powers.
Fleshcrafter	312	1	Caster	An alternate necromancer who seeks to create artificial life.
Soul Reaper	312	1	Caster	A wizard plus the grim reaper.
Harbinger	337	3	Caster	A bard with bardic music that debuffs instead of buffs.
Rage Cleric	333	1	Caster	A cleric who trades turning and domains for the ability to rage.
Defiler	315	1	Caster	Technically an alternate magic system but easily usable as a class. It allows a caster to draw power upon his surroundings.
Totem Druid	335	1	Caster	A druid that can wild shape from level 1 and gets more uses of it as he progresses but is limited to a single form (his totem. Also the type of animal he has as a companion).
Chaos Monk	335	5	Melee	A monk with a potentially stronger, but much more random, flurry of blows attack.
Sidhe Scholar	339	1	Caster	A druid based more on casting and less on melee.
Wild Defender	324	3	Gish	A ranger with spellcasting from level 1 and a smiting ability.
Wild Monk	324	4	Melee	A monk that gains the ability to wild shape
Filidh	324	1	Caster	A shaman flavored wizard variant with bardic knowledge and a bonus to divination magic.
Implacable	330	4	Melee	A barbarian who's rage grants damage reduction. Built more around the idea of an unstoppable berserker who just seems to ignore wounds.
Angakok	344	1	Caster	A druid themed wizard with an expanded spell list and some class features.

Pathfinder
You can find all of the classes on there SRD here
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes

Spoiler

CLASS	Source	TIER	ROLE	NOTES
Druid	Core	1	Caster	A nature based spellcaster who shapeshifts.
Wizard	Core	1	Caster	The archetypical spellcaster, who prepares his magic via spellbooks.
Cleric	Core	1	Caster	A spellcaster who draws his power from the gods and can still engage in melee.
Sorcerer	Core	2	Caster	A spellcaster who draws his magic from his bloodline.
Summoner	Advanced Player's Guide	3	Caster	A spellcaster with limited casting but the ability to create an "eidolon" that does his bidding.
Oracle	Advanced Player's Guide	2	Caster	A divine spellcaster with spell "mysteries" and no specific god.
Inquisitor	Advanced Player's Guide	3	Gish	A divine gish class, conceptually similar to a gritty paladin.
Magus	Ultimate Magic	3	Gish	An archetypical, effective but bland gish class.
Witch	Advanced Player's Guide	3	Caster	A spellcaster who hexes enemies and has an animal companion. Like an evil wizard+a druid/3.
Alchemist	Advanced Player's Guide	3	Buffer	The best class ever made, in my humble opinion. It uses more powerful versions of potions (extracts), can do Jeckyll and Hide style stuff, and throws bombs.
Bard	Core	3	Caster	A jack-of-all-trades style spellcaster who has a banjo.
Fighter	Core	4	Melee	The archetypical warrior.
Barbarian	Core	4	Melee	A fighter who gets mad.
Paladin	Core	4	Melee	A divine warrior who smites the bad guys.
Ranger	Core	4	Melee	A nature oriented warrior.
Rogue	Core	4	Skillmonkey	A sneaky little thief.
Cavalier	Advanced Player's Guide	5	Melee	A paladin minus the divine stuff. Probably should've been called the knight.
Gunslinger	Ultimate Combat	5	Ranged	A fighter with guns.
Monk	Core	5	Melee	A fighter who punches people instead of chopping them up.
Ninja	Ultimate Combat	5	Melee	A sneaky warrior.
Samurai	Ultimate Combat	5	Melee	A fighter with an oriental theme.

Corrections
Witch is Tier 2, maybe Tier 1
Ninja is Tier 4
Alchemist might be tier 4 i'm not sure
Summoner is Tier 2

[WildPyre]

PF Summoner is tier 3? I'll have to remember that when I'm told my summoners are OP.

[Rhynn]

Originally Posted by WildPyre

PF Summoner is tier 3? I'll have to remember that when I'm told my summoners are OP.

Non-sequitur. Tiers have nothing to do with a particular character/build being (or not being) OP in a particular context. The tiers have a pretty specific meaning.

[WildPyre]

That's... not quite true. I realize tiers have a specific meaning. The tiers are about what a class can and can not do and how well they do it.

Seeing as how people are always telling me summoners are OP in general, I wouldn't call it a non sequitur.

Though considering the was the description of tiers and power are written tier three would be the highest you could put them considering the limited casting.

[CowardlyPaladin]

It also depends on what your group is made up of, if you put a Summoner next to a non caster group it is going to look pretty OP, or if you play a generally lower Tier game. I've also heard people tell me that it is Tier 2, so if you disagree please let me know. The point of this thread is to try to establish what tiers everything is.

[Eric Tolle]

Summoners are obviously Tier 2, given the combination of better spellcasting and a very flexible eidolin.

Rogues are Tier 5 at best, given the changes to skills, Trapfinding, and sneak attacks. With their ki abilities Ninjas manage to get up to Tier 4.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Originally Posted by Eric Tolle

Summoners are obviously Tier 2, given the combination of better spellcasting and a very flexible eidolin.

Rogues are Tier 5 at best, given the changes to skills, Trapfinding, and sneak attacks. With their ki abilities Ninjas manage to get up to Tier 4.

Wait Pathfinder Rogues are worse than 3.5 rogues? ouch. At least Ninjas got a step up

[Mr.Bookworm]

You're missing all of the base classes from the Dragon Magazine Compendium, which are the Battle Dancer (a slightly better Monk with some dance-themed abilities), the Death Master (an Orcus-serving necromantic Wizard), the Jester (the Bard, but with comedy), the Mountebank (a trickster with links to the infernal planes), the Savant (a poor man's Factotum), the Sha'ir (a ridiculously powerful genie-based arcane/divine spellcaster), and the Urban Druid (the Druid, but with more concrete).

A rough guesstimate from me would be that the Battle Dancer is tier 4/5, the Death Master is tier 2, the Jester is tier 3/4, the Mountebank is tier 4/5, the Savant is probably tier 5, the Sha'ir is definitely tier 1, and the Urban Druid is still tier 1 (but not as powerful as the regular Druid).

[CowardlyPaladin]

Originally Posted by Mr.Bookworm

You're missing all of the base classes from the Dragon Magazine Compendium, which are the Battle Dancer (a slightly better Monk with some dance-themed abilities), the Death Master (an Orcus-serving necromantic Wizard), the Jester (the Bard, but with comedy), the Mountebank (a trickster with links to the infernal planes), the Savant (a poor man's Factotum), the Sha'ir (a ridiculously powerful genie-based arcane/divine spellcaster), and the Urban Druid (the Druid, but with more concrete).

A rough guesstimate from me would be that the Battle Dancer is tier 4/5, the Death Master is tier 2, the Jester is tier 3/4, the Mountebank is tier 4/5, the Savant is probably tier 5, the Sha'ir is definitely tier 1, and the Urban Druid is still tier 1 (but not as powerful as the regular Druid).

I didn't include them because they have been made "offical" now and this is for third party, but what i've heard is

Mountebank: Tier 3

Savant: Tier 4, a bit like the Akashic from Arcana Evolvered

Jester: Tier 4

Battle Dancer: Alot like a Hexblade and not having any social skills for a charisma based character is dumb

Death Master: Tier 3, basically a Dread Necro

SHa'ir: Tier 1, maybe Tier 2, there inability to get spells quickly is made up for ther access to alot of spells

Urban Druid: Tier 2 or Tier 3


Could somebody please give me a handle on the Arcana Evolved/Jade Oath classes? There is literally nothing out there that gives me a sense of there power level

[NoldorForce]

Originally Posted by CowardlyPaladin

Could somebody please give me a handle on the Arcana Evolved/Jade Oath classes? There is literally nothing out there that gives me a sense of there power level

• Akashic: Tier 4. The damage output isn't great (but no one's is in melee compared to 3.5 due to how Power Attack works), but they have All The Skills. They also have memory-based buffs and information gathering. Just a bit down from the Factotum, really.
• Champion: Tier 4 or 5. On par approximately with the Paladin. Limited by the fact that many of their cool powers are once-daily effects.
• Greenbond: Tier 2. Full caster with somewhat limited spell selection, but access to all plant/positive energy spells is nothing to sneeze at. Also keep in mind that they can get access to various collections of complex spells with feats.
• Mage Blade: Tier 3. Sort of a proto-Duskblade. Being a spellsword isn't as clean as with the Duskblade, but they've got some exclusive spells that allow for interesting effects. Plus their casting goes up to 7th at 20th level, so their spells are relevant without being crazy at the same time.
• Magister: Tier 1. Some of the really crazy spells got moved into exotic. That said, with automatic complex access, full casting, feats that can grant access to handfuls of exotics at once, and the ability to swap around your list at an hour's notice, a magister would not be out of place with the god-casters of standard 3.x.
• Oathsworn: Tier 5. Pretty much a monk with more text, enough so that even the fan community claimed that its 15th-level ability was "Eschew Sucking". (It's actually Refuse Spells, a copy/paste of the monk's SR.) They also get some combat rites (like the Ritual Warrior), but it's always too little at the levels they get them to make up for the class's flaws.
• Ritual Warrior: Tier 4. The first incarnation of the concept that became ToB (ToB itself was the third incarnation, after this and Iron Heroes), this class is dragged down by the fact that its primary class feature (combat rites) consists of a bunch of daily-limited powers.
• Runethane: Tier 1 or 2. Like the Mageblade, they have bardic casting (up to 7th at 20th). If you're familiar with all of the shenanigans a Zceryll-bound Binder can pull off, the Runethane will be very familiar. Except they don't just summon, but they can also pull out weird sorts of traps. They've also got access to spells with the runic descriptor; one of these is Explosive Runes. Another is Empower Rune, which can make your runes nastier so long as they're active. Finally, they get free access to the utterly broken runic spell template. (It makes saves against your spells key off Intelligence instead of other ability scores.)
• Totem Speaker: Tier 3. Found in Transendence, this is some mishmash of bard-casting and 3.x's Totemist. Like the Akashic, it can get All The Skills, since its skill points key off Wisdom (its casting stat) instead of Intelligence.
• Totem Warrior: Tier 3 or 4. Something of a nonmagical Ranger with benefits that key off your totem animal, plus an animal companion that scales nearly as well as a druid's. Each companion animal also eventually becomes size Large (or greater), so you can have fun using it as a mount.
• Unfettered: Tier 4. A cross between a Fighter and a Rogue, with reduced sneak attack damage but full BAB and the capacity to dodge just about everything. Dual-wielding is also relatively decent here and easy for them to use well.
• Warmain: Tier 4 or 5. Basically the Fighter but tankier. Their numbers can be bigger (except for Power Attack), but they generally come later than they should. They also get combat rites, but they have the slowest progression of any class that uses them - too little, too late.
• Witch: Tier 3. They're the last of the bardic-casting classes, but also get full access to certain spells and special abilities based on some theme. They also have The Sight, which among other things has the bizarre capacity to give you someone else's classes and level as in-character knowledge.

The various non-casting classes could all easily be improved by making various abilities encounter-limited rather than daily-limited, but unfortunately Monte hadn't quite made that conceptual leap when designing this stuff. (He also didn't like the power level of ToB's encounter balance, which is rich coming from a guy who tended to write casters as Never Not Awesome.) It'd also help if some of them didn't require full-round or standard actions.

Then again, most of the classes do get a regular supply of bonus feats, helping to augment certain class features or to mitigate the effective length of feat chains. One thing that is actually nice for melee characters in AE is a feat in the core book called Speed Burst, which several times per day you can use to get an extra move action. It makes full attacks/maneuvering a lot easier and I recommended it to the melee players in a short campaign I'd ran a while ago.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Originally Posted by NoldorForce

• Akashic: Tier 4. The damage output isn't great (but no one's is in melee compared to 3.5 due to how Power Attack works), but they have All The Skills. They also have memory-based buffs and information gathering. Just a bit down from the Factotum, really.
• Champion: Tier 4 or 5. On par approximately with the Paladin. Limited by the fact that many of their cool powers are once-daily effects.
• Greenbond: Tier 2. Full caster with somewhat limited spell selection, but access to all plant/positive energy spells is nothing to sneeze at. Also keep in mind that they can get access to various collections of complex spells with feats.
• Mage Blade: Tier 3. Sort of a proto-Duskblade. Being a spellsword isn't as clean as with the Duskblade, but they've got some exclusive spells that allow for interesting effects. Plus their casting goes up to 7th at 20th level, so their spells are relevant without being crazy at the same time.
• Magister: Tier 1. Some of the really crazy spells got moved into exotic. That said, with automatic complex access, full casting, feats that can grant access to handfuls of exotics at once, and the ability to swap around your list at an hour's notice, a magister would not be out of place with the god-casters of standard 3.x.
• Oathsworn: Tier 5. Pretty much a monk with more text, enough so that even the fan community claimed that its 15th-level ability was "Eschew Sucking". (It's actually Refuse Spells, a copy/paste of the monk's SR.) They also get some combat rites (like the Ritual Warrior), but it's always too little at the levels they get them to make up for the class's flaws.
• Ritual Warrior: Tier 4. The first incarnation of the concept that became ToB (ToB itself was the third incarnation, after this and Iron Heroes), this class is dragged down by the fact that its primary class feature (combat rites) consists of a bunch of daily-limited powers.
• Runethane: Tier 1 or 2. Like the Mageblade, they have bardic casting (up to 7th at 20th). If you're familiar with all of the shenanigans a Zceryll-bound Binder can pull off, the Runethane will be very familiar. Except they don't just summon, but they can also pull out weird sorts of traps. They've also got access to spells with the runic descriptor; one of these is Explosive Runes. Another is Empower Rune, which can make your runes nastier so long as they're active. Finally, they get free access to the utterly broken runic spell template. (It makes saves against your spells key off Intelligence instead of other ability scores.)
• Totem Speaker: Tier 3. Found in Transendence, this is some mishmash of bard-casting and 3.x's Totemist. Like the Akashic, it can get All The Skills, since its skill points key off Wisdom (its casting stat) instead of Intelligence.
• Totem Warrior: Tier 3 or 4. Something of a nonmagical Ranger with benefits that key off your totem animal, plus an animal companion that scales nearly as well as a druid's. Each companion animal also eventually becomes size Large (or greater), so you can have fun using it as a mount.
• Unfettered: Tier 4. A cross between a Fighter and a Rogue, with reduced sneak attack damage but full BAB and the capacity to dodge just about everything. Dual-wielding is also relatively decent here and easy for them to use well.
• Warmain: Tier 4 or 5. Basically the Fighter but tankier. Their numbers can be bigger (except for Power Attack), but they generally come later than they should. They also get combat rites, but they have the slowest progression of any class that uses them - too little, too late.
• Witch: Tier 3. They're the last of the bardic-casting classes, but also get full access to certain spells and special abilities based on some theme. They also have The Sight, which among other things has the bizarre capacity to give you someone else's classes and level as in-character knowledge.

THanks alot, that is perfect. Its interesting to me how many character themes started in Arcana Evolved and emerged later, Akashic-Savant-Factorium for example.

The various non-casting classes could all easily be improved by making various abilities encounter-limited rather than daily-limited, but unfortunately Monte hadn't quite made that conceptual leap when designing this stuff. (He also didn't like the power level of ToB's encounter balance, which is rich coming from a guy who tended to write casters as Never Not Awesome.) It'd also help if some of them didn't require full-round or standard actions.

Then again, most of the classes do get a regular supply of bonus feats, helping to augment certain class features or to mitigate the effective length of feat chains. One thing that is actually nice for melee characters in AE is a feat in the core book called Speed Burst, which several times per day you can use to get an extra move action. It makes full attacks/maneuvering a lot easier and I recommended it to the melee players in a short campaign I'd ran a while ago.

The evolution of Melee classes is an intresting thread all to itself.

Ok, so that is Arcana Evolved done, and we have a general understanding of Pathfinder/Dragon, and I doubt anybody has read Hero's of the Jade oath. Should I put the next third party book up here or start a new thread, i was thinking the Advanced Players Handbook and some of its ilk

[DoctorStandard]

There is no way Witches are tier 3. Top of 2 at worst, and I'd say bottom of 1. They're preparation-based full casters, and hexes are pretty great, even if they're not quite as good as Wizards. I'd also put Ninja in tier 4 (ki abilities go a long way), and Alchemist in tier 4 as well (bombs are meh at higher levels, self-buffing is okay but limited). Summoner in tier 2 as has been said.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Originally Posted by DoctorStandard

There is no way Witches are tier 3. Top of 2 at worst, and I'd say bottom of 1. They're preparation-based full casters, and hexes are pretty great, even if they're not quite as good as Wizards. I'd also put Ninja in tier 4 (ki abilities go a long way), and Alchemist in tier 4 as well (bombs are meh at higher levels, self-buffing is okay but limited). Summoner in tier 2 as has been said.

Lol when I first read this I thought you were refering to the Arcana Evolved witch, looks like people need more diverse names.

Ok, I changed Ninja and Summoner, I split the difference with Pathfinder Witch and made her tier 2. I"m not sure about Alchemist, doesn't there crafting powers count for something?

[CowardlyPaladin]

Added Advanced player's guide