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Old 04-05-2011, 10:10 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Ernir
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Default [3.5] Psionic Mechanics, Arcane Flavor (Updated 29/12/12)

I am one of those who thinks the psionic subsystem is one of the most elegantly designed things in D&D 3.5. In many ways, I think it's how spellcasting should have been done in 3.5. And I'd like to use it for more things.

But when I try to replace the core vancian casting with psionics, I run into a couple of problems.
  • Options are missing. There are things the core classes can do that simply can't be faithfully replicated with psionics. The psionic system is powerful enough, no doubt about that. It can pretty much always get the job done. But if I wanted to, say, play a necromancer, I'd probably have to reflavor Astral Constructs as my zombies and some Stygian powers as my negative energy effects. Which works, but wasn't really what I was looking for in the first place. Which brings me to the second problem:
  • The flavor doesn't always fit. Now, I think it's cool - if viewed on its own terms. The crystals and tattoo theme the books have going on is a perfectly good way to look at magic, but in my experience, it doesn't always live up to people's ideas about what D&D magic "should" look like. DMs still ban psionics for "flavor reasons", or because it doesn't "fit their setting". Which, I must say, I understand perfectly.

So what can I do? Well, I devised a twofold solution to the twofold problem.
  • I translated the core spells and classes over to psionic mechanics.
  • As for the system itself (as well as some doodads like the basic magic items), I changed every reference to "power", "manifester", "crystals" and "psionic", and so on to... well, their arcane counterparts. In other words, when people say "just reflavor psionics to fit your setting/concept" - I'd like to think I did precisely that.

And here is the result. (.pdf, 1.7 MB) I suggest linking to this thread rather than hotlinking, I expect this thread to be rather more permanent.
It includes a complete conversion of the psionic base system, feats and fundamental items over to magical terminology, as well as, more importantly, translated classes to utilize the mechanics, and a relatively thorough conversion of the Sorcerer/Wizard, Cleric, Bard, Paladin, Assassin and Blackguard lists over to what 3.5 fans know as psionic mechanics. For the classes presented so far, it should be playable from 1-20.

Now, like all homebrewers, I hope that this is actually useful, and that I can get some feedback. But I don't expect anyone to just accept that the stuff I churned out is awesome enough to read the over 300 pages of it. Instead, I suggest that the potentially interested do the following:
  1. Download the document (see link above).
  2. If you know how psionics in 3.5 work, proceed to step 3. All you will find in the first few chapters is that this is a reprinting of the psionic mechanics, that the Wizard works just like the Psion, and so on. If you don't, well, please read the Wizard class, and tell me whether it makes any sense to you!
  3. Navigate to the "Spells" section (the pdf is thoroughly bookmarked). Find your favourite spell or two.
  4. Tell me what you think! You don't need to be a grandmaster of homebrewing to tell if I royally screwed something up, so please tell me if you find something odd, no matter how trivial or "just your opinion" you think it is.

For those that are still reading, I have a FAQ for you:
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Thanks for reading this far, please tell me what you think!
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:07 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

Yes. Just yes. This looks well thought out, sensible, balanced, and interesting. And it uses my Principle of Equivalence!

Edit: Only thing I see thusfar that I dislike is the Sorcerer. Surely you could come up with something for them? Sort of like the Wilder, perhaps (but with more cast-y, less 3/4 BAB)?
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:50 AM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Ernir
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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Yes. Just yes. This looks well thought out, sensible, balanced, and interesting.
Well, that's high praise. Thanks.
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And it uses my Principle of Equivalence!
*Does a search for "Principle of Equivalence"*

Yeah, point-based systems kind of work like that.
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Edit: Only thing I see thusfar that I dislike is the Sorcerer. Surely you could come up with something for them? Sort of like the Wilder, perhaps (but with more cast-y, less 3/4 BAB)?
No worries, the Sorcerer is next up.

Not that it'll be anything really drastic (it will share the casting mechanic with the Wizard, of course), but I'm going to try to find enough stuff to make it worthy of its own chassis.
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:53 AM   Top  -  End  -  #4
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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Not that it'll be anything really drastic (it will share the casting mechanic with the Wizard, of course), but I'm going to try to find enough stuff to make it worthy of its own chassis.
That's all I'm asking.
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Old 04-09-2011, 07:20 AM   Top  -  End  -  #5
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

I haven't read it all but since this is based on sorc/wiz spells I don't think I have to. The psionics mechanics are certainly very elegant but what has stopped me heretofore is that I don't know the powers and class mechanics well enough. I'd certainly consider using this to replace Vancian casting, if only because of the acconting, especially for classes that know the entire spell list.

Translating every spell has also (I hope) given you oppurtunity to fix the broken spells even if you haven't achived "balance".
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:31 AM   Top  -  End  -  #6
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

Found a typo, Heroism spell is on the spell list as a lvl 3 spell, and it costs 5sp to cast, but on its description it says Wizard 2 on level.

Great work, kip it up!
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:47 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

Beta 1.01 is up! Now including the Sorcerer.

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Originally Posted by Ormur View Post
Translating every spell has also (I hope) given you oppurtunity to fix the broken spells even if you haven't achived "balance".
I did use the opportunity to change the big offenders like Polymorph (now split into about a dozen spells), Planar Binding, Gate, and Shapechange.

Some spells I simply haven't tackled at all yet, these include Shrink Item, Polymorph Any Object, and Rope Trick.
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Found a typo, Heroism spell is on the spell list as a lvl 3 spell, and it costs 5sp to cast, but on its description it says Wizard 2 on level.

Great work, kip it up!
Thanks. I've fixed it. Should be a level 3 spell.
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:59 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

At first glance, this looks incredible, but I'm curious, did you transcribe every spell, or just Core? I'm guessing just Core.

Just glanced at the Sorcerer and Wizard, and they seem much more balanced now, both are limited, and both get new spell levels at the same level. I know some people might be disappointed at the Wizard's loss of ability to learn any spell, so you might consider doing something similar to the Erudite for him. Perhaps, in exchange for not specializing, he gets the Erudites kind of feature. Fluff it as he doesn't have the same mastery as other wizards because he has such a large repertoire.

The mechanics aren't perfect though, so perhaps instead, he has to pick his spells for the day at random, basically, those are the ones he can remember. In this way, he can do anything , but he doesn't always know what he can do. Perhaps allow him to add or subtract up to half his Int modifier (if positive) rounded down to the random roll to influence his spells a little. That's getting into slightly dangerous territory though, so I'm not entirely sure about that one.
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:53 AM   Top  -  End  -  #9
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

I've seen a couple of these translations before, but none of them really ring true for me, and here why.

Source: One of the reasons Magic uses a very different structure from Psionics (or Incarnum or Ninjas with ki or...) Is because the power has a different source. Psionics use an internalized power source, aka their own mental ability, to achieve their powers. Magic is traditionally an external source, be it divine (granted by a god) or arcane (channeled from the universe). Translating the magic system to psionics places that "magic point reserve" on the table, and suddenly the power is internalized, otherwize why is there that numeric limit on how much I can draw? It can be rationalized, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Spontaneous Casters: Certainly the break in the above argument are spontaneous casters, but ven spontaneous casters still get this energy from around them, rather than necesarily all from within. They have a talent for acessing that pool of magical energy, rather than having leanred to do it through careful study or having earned it through rigourous prayer. While they do adopt easier they start to feel less like their prepratory brethren, and while they are meant to have a different feel, its not supposed to be that different.

Spell Levels Vs. Augmentation: This is the classic difference between Magic and Psionics, and I like it. It creates a vast gulf between the two systems, a stylistic chasm. It lets a Psion, a Wizard, A wilder, and A sorcerer glare at eachother and know that each one has a very different power from the others, and that they weild it in very a different way.



Other than my personal beefs though, looking through the document I didn't really see anything all that origional. The Wizard looked like a Psion with a different name, and the sorcerer looked identical, minus specialization and a higher power point limit. Assigning a power point cost to spells (1+2 per spell level over 1) isn't very hard, so If you want to translate your Psion as a necromancer you could just give him the appropriate powers(spells with the cost equation plugged in), dress him like a sorcerer and call it a day, rather than claim to make a whole new system.
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:26 AM   Top  -  End  -  #10
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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At first glance, this looks incredible, but I'm curious, did you transcribe every spell, or just Core? I'm guessing just Core.
Thanks!

These are only core spells (and a few of my own). The rest isn't OGL, so I can't wholesale reproduce them.
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Just glanced at the Sorcerer and Wizard, and they seem much more balanced now, both are limited, and both get new spell levels at the same level. I know some people might be disappointed at the Wizard's loss of ability to learn any spell, so you might consider doing something similar to the Erudite for him. Perhaps, in exchange for not specializing, he gets the Erudites kind of feature. Fluff it as he doesn't have the same mastery as other wizards because he has such a large repertoire.

The mechanics aren't perfect though, so perhaps instead, he has to pick his spells for the day at random, basically, those are the ones he can remember. In this way, he can do anything , but he doesn't always know what he can do. Perhaps allow him to add or subtract up to half his Int modifier (if positive) rounded down to the random roll to influence his spells a little. That's getting into slightly dangerous territory though, so I'm not entirely sure about that one.
Not a bad idea.

There being no "generalist" type of Wizard nags me a bit at the moment. And the Erudite way of doing things is pretty cool.
Problem is that Erudites are also pretty much loose cannons in the system...
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Originally Posted by RunicLGB View Post
I've seen a couple of these translations before, but none of them really ring true for me, and here why.

Source: One of the reasons Magic uses a very different structure from Psionics (or Incarnum or Ninjas with ki or...) Is because the power has a different source. Psionics use an internalized power source, aka their own mental ability, to achieve their powers. Magic is traditionally an external source, be it divine (granted by a god) or arcane (channeled from the universe). Translating the magic system to psionics places that "magic point reserve" on the table, and suddenly the power is internalized, otherwize why is there that numeric limit on how much I can draw? It can be rationalized, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Spontaneous Casters: Certainly the break in the above argument are spontaneous casters, but ven spontaneous casters still get this energy from around them, rather than necesarily all from within. They have a talent for acessing that pool of magical energy, rather than having leanred to do it through careful study or having earned it through rigourous prayer. While they do adopt easier they start to feel less like their prepratory brethren, and while they are meant to have a different feel, its not supposed to be that different.

Spell Levels Vs. Augmentation: This is the classic difference between Magic and Psionics, and I like it. It creates a vast gulf between the two systems, a stylistic chasm. It lets a Psion, a Wizard, A wilder, and A sorcerer glare at eachother and know that each one has a very different power from the others, and that they weild it in very a different way.
Valid points.

If you like vancian casting the way it is, and think it should retain the things that sets it apart from the other magic system, you aren't likely to find anything of great interest here.

It may help to understand my position to know that I think of what I did here as a gamist (as in GNS theory) tool, which leaves the interpretation of what it means within the game world up to each individual GM/player.
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Other than my personal beefs though, looking through the document I didn't really see anything all that origional. The Wizard looked like a Psion with a different name, and the sorcerer looked identical, minus specialization and a higher power point limit.
If it doesn't look original - I'm glad to hear it, actually. I was trying to add as little as I could of my own ideas.

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Originally Posted by RunicLGB View Post
Assigning a power point cost to spells (1+2 per spell level over 1) isn't very hard, so If you want to translate your Psion as a necromancer you could just give him the appropriate powers(spells with the cost equation plugged in), dress him like a sorcerer and call it a day, rather than claim to make a whole new system.
Here I disagree.
Hacking a power/spell point cost equation on to the Wizard spell list doesn't quite do the trick. Aside from the differences inherent in the systems (material components and whatnot), you run into issues of scaling and redundancy, and a bunch of tiny little other oddities. These are issues that can be resolved, of course, but most of them are not trivial.
Resolving these issues for you/your DM is... pretty much what this project is about.
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:26 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

This is a lot of stuff to read, so I'm going to ask directly:

For my campaign, I have removed all spellcasters and replaced them with refluffed psions. But that makes a lot of effects that exist only as spells unavailable. Can I just use your spells with a standard psion, or are there any additional things I have to consider?
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:27 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

How on earth is a point-based system versus slot-based system different in terms of internal vs. external? Traditionally slot-based has been external and point-based has been internal, but there's absolutely nothing inherent (that I can see, anyway!) about them that makes these things true.

Anyway, Ernir, this is awesome, but you know that. Very nice work all around.
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:45 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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This is a lot of stuff to read, so I'm going to ask directly:

For my campaign, I have removed all spellcasters and replaced them with refluffed psions. But that makes a lot of effects that exist only as spells unavailable. Can I just use your spells with a standard psion, or are there any additional things I have to consider?
In short: Yes. These spells are divvied into nine levels with point costs the same as powers of equal level. They even have Augments!


Taking a look at the Sorcerer... I was hoping for a bit more differentiation between the Sorcerer and the Wizard. Currently the Sorcerer is different only by greater raw power, less versatility, and limited access to specialized spells. I was thinking something along the lines of the Demented One's Spell Flux would be in order. Besides that, looking good.
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:50 AM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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Originally Posted by Yora View Post
This is a lot of stuff to read, so I'm going to ask directly:

For my campaign, I have removed all spellcasters and replaced them with refluffed psions. But that makes a lot of effects that exist only as spells unavailable. Can I just use your spells with a standard psion, or are there any additional things I have to consider?
On the technical end, you'd have to
  • Remove the V/S components, and pick a psionic display instead.
  • Possibly add an augment like "For every 2 additional power points you spend, the save DC of this power increases by 1" to a lot of spells. This was one thing I really did change in the psionic system.

Apart from that it should more or less work.

Be wary of things that increase manifester level, though.
The way I did it, augments tend to duplicate the effects of higher level spells, so you may end up with players getting access to level-inappropriate abilities if they get their hands on powerful manifester level boosters.


(Of course, if you're going to use reflavored Psions, I'd recommend you just use the reflavored Psion Wizard class I made, but I may be biased. )

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Taking a look at the Sorcerer... I was hoping for a bit more differentiation between the Sorcerer and the Wizard. Currently the Sorcerer is different only by greater raw power, less versatility, and limited access to specialized spells. I was thinking something along the lines of the Demented One's Spell Flux would be in order. Besides that, looking good.
Yes, it isn't as different from the Wizard as I'd like. =/

Spell Flux, you say? Interesting. I'll look into it when I get back to my own 'puter!
Thanks.

I'd definitely need to change how it increases your caster level, though. But adapting it would be a given anyway.
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:20 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

Yeah, I think both the Wizard and the Sorcerer could use some actual class features. Nothing big, just something utilitarian. Preferably something usable even when out of spell points.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:17 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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(snip) Magic is traditionally an external source, be it divine (granted by a god) or arcane (channeled from the universe). Translating the magic system to psionics places that "magic point reserve" on the table, and suddenly the power is internalized, otherwize why is there that numeric limit on how much I can draw? It can be rationalized, but it just doesn't feel right to me. (snip)
As someone else has stated, they had a limit before -- the number of spell slots of each level. That was even more of a limit, if you ask me -- they had all this power, but could only do so many of each level? Why couldn't they save up those lower level slots to power a higher level spell? Limited, indeed.

Also, you can look at it from the perspective that there is no limit on that external power, merely a limit on how much they can handle channeling in a day.
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Old 04-13-2011, 03:08 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

This might interest you.
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Old 04-14-2011, 01:17 AM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

I like what you've done so far. The changes to the actual spells seem well thought, from what I've seen so far. I especially like the clarifications in Anti-Magic Field. It's always fun to see healing back in Necromancy. Building Permanency into the spells is smart.

Overall, I have to say that this is great. I look forward to seeing what you do with the divine casters.

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Old 04-14-2011, 08:53 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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Yeah, I think both the Wizard and the Sorcerer could use some actual class features. Nothing big, just something utilitarian. Preferably something usable even when out of spell points.
At least in the Wizard's case, I'm thinking about implementing class features in the form of specialist ACFs.

I have a bit of a beef with random "one size fits all" features. =/
(Favored Soul energy resistances, I'm looking at you!)
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Interesting, yes.

I'm not quite sure I get it, though. Do they use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list? Shall we make all applicable assumptions about the terminology? How do you handle scaling and augments other than the DC augment?
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I like what you've done so far. The changes to the actual spells seem well thought, from what I've seen so far. I especially like the clarifications in Anti-Magic Field. It's always fun to see healing back in Necromancy. Building Permanency into the spells is smart.

Overall, I have to say that this is great. I look forward to seeing what you do with the divine casters.
Thanks. Especially great since I know you really went through this. =D
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Spoiler
Woha! Thanks a million for the feedback. Exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for.
I'm not done dissecting it, here's what I have so far:

Spoiler

Will do D-S when I get back to my own 'puter.

Note I haven't updated the linked PDF yet.
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Old 04-15-2011, 12:10 AM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

Happy to help.

I didn't check, but how closely did you copy the text from psionics about spending PP on a power? If I recall correctly, there's no limitation (other than you ML) for spending PP on a power, even if there aren't any augments to apply the excess towards. Is that also the case with your version? It's particularly relevant since spell DCs scale directly with the SP spent, although the Light/Darkness thing interacts with that aspect as well. If so, it might be worth mentioning explicitly, just to be clear.
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Old 04-16-2011, 11:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
Ernir
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

Beta 1.02 is up!
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Originally Posted by Garryl
Spoiler
And continuing!
Spoiler

Again, thanks a bunch for the feedback, it really helped.
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Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
Happy to help.

I didn't check, but how closely did you copy the text from psionics about spending PP on a power? If I recall correctly, there's no limitation (other than you ML) for spending PP on a power, even if there aren't any augments to apply the excess towards. Is that also the case with your version? It's particularly relevant since spell DCs scale directly with the SP spent, although the Light/Darkness thing interacts with that aspect as well. If so, it might be worth mentioning explicitly, just to be clear.
Interestingly enough, I didn't copy that very closely. Psionics don't allow you to spend more PP on a power than the base cost, unless an augment is present, as far as I can tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
All powers have a Power Points line, indicating the power’s cost.

The psionic character class tables show how many power points a character has access to each day, depending on level.

A power’s cost is determined by its level, as shown below. Every power’s cost is noted in its description for ease of reference.

Power Point Limit
Some powers allow you to spend more than their base cost to achieve an improved effect, or augment the power. The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level.
I explicitly allowed it.
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Originally Posted by Me
All spells have a Spell Points line, indicating the spell's cost. This is the minimum number of spell points that must be paid in order to cast the spell.

The spellcasting character class tables show how many spell points a character has access to each day, depending on level.

A spell's cost is determined by its level, as shown on table 1. Every spell's cost is noted in its description for ease of reference.

Spell Point Limit
The spell point cost mentioned in each spell's description is the minimum number of spell points needed to cast the spell. You can, if you wish, spend more than this minimum number on a spell, usually to increase the spell's saving throw DC, or to use an augment the spell may have. The maximum number of points you can spend on a spell (for any reason) is equal to your caster level (the fundamental rule of magic).
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Old 04-24-2011, 12:31 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
Ernir
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

The Paladin class is up! I was a bit more liberal when it came to creating brand new spells for the Paladin list than for the Sorcerer/Wizard list. That's simply because the Paladin list required a lot more help.
For the many out there that I know won't ever download the document - the skinny of it is that the Paladin is structured the way the Psychic Warrior is.

The Cleric is still on its way. That one is going to be, well, not quite as difficult as doing the Wizard in the first place, but it's still a bit huge. The Paladin was a stepping stone.
I am doing that one Ardent-style. A Cleric's spell list is going to be defined by the domains he has access to.
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Old 04-24-2011, 01:46 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

I must admit, this was a project I'd been planning on doing for quite some time. I'm rather glad to have found someone else had already done the legwork. This reworking will be hitting my campaign as soon as my caster players have had time to digest it.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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I must admit, this was a project I'd been planning on doing for quite some time. I'm rather glad to have found someone else had already done the legwork.
Heh. Yeah, the "replace wizards with psions" thought isn't exactly mine alone.
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This reworking will be hitting my campaign as soon as my caster players have had time to digest it.
Awesome to hear! Please let me know how it goes.
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:02 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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Originally Posted by Ernir View Post
The Cleric is still on its way. ...
I am doing that one Ardent-style. A Cleric's spell list is going to be defined by the domains he has access to.
Hmmmm. I'm undecided about which I like better: Ardent-style or Spontaneous Variant Cleric style. The latter makes the Cleric more able to fill the generic healbot role, if a party needs it; while still tying it strongly to its domains for flavor.

Ardent-style is good too, though.

That reminds me of one comment I have been sitting on about the Wizard, though: I don't like the way each specialist-only list has exactly one spell at each level. It makes me feel like you're picking specialist-only spells in order to match that standard, rather than picking them for flavor or balance reasons. And it's an arbitrary standard -- the Psion Discipline lists prove that there's nothing wrong with sometimes having more or fewer than one option at each level. And I think Psion Discipline Lists are, generally, better-designed than Cleric Domain lists because of this flexibility.
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Old 04-25-2011, 06:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
Ernir
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

There have been two things about the spell descriptions I have been wondering about changing for some time. I'd appreciate any feedback.

One is removing the "Spell Points" line from the spell descriptions. Technically it is a complete waste of space, as the relationship between a spell's base SP cost has a 1-1 relationship with the spell's level. In other words, the information there is redundant with table 1: Spell Points by Spell Level.
And I have Spell Point lines like "Spell Points: Chaos 13, Evil 13, Good 13, Law 13, Paladin 11". This is ugly.

The second (completely unrelated, and bothers me less) is adding a line about how obvious the effects of a spell are as they relate to noticing its effects. It's pretty obvious when someone is under the effects of an Alter Size spell, but what about Moment of Prescience? I think this may be important enough to warrant mechanical definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Hmmmm. I'm undecided about which I like better: Ardent-style or Spontaneous Variant Cleric style. The latter makes the Cleric more able to fill the generic healbot role, if a party needs it; while still tying it strongly to its domains for flavor.

Ardent-style is good too, though.
The spontaneous Cleric/Druid way isn't bad. I hadn't thought of it myself. Interesting.

In any case, I want to drastically increase the impact domain selection has on the Cleric. Clerics of the god of healing and love sharing 90% of its spell list with a Cleric of the god of skewering infants has always bugged me.
And I definitely want it to be possible to build a Cleric that can't properly cure people.

Perhaps, in the end, the decision might just depend on how well it goes to divide the Cleric spell list down on to the domains...
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That reminds me of one comment I have been sitting on about the Wizard, though: I don't like the way each specialist-only list has exactly one spell at each level. It makes me feel like you're picking specialist-only spells in order to match that standard, rather than picking them for flavor or balance reasons. And it's an arbitrary standard -- the Psion Discipline lists prove that there's nothing wrong with sometimes having more or fewer than one option at each level. And I think Psion Discipline Lists are, generally, better-designed than Cleric Domain lists because of this flexibility.
You'll notice that this trend drops off as I reached the higher levels of spells. But only slightly.

I wasn't really trying to make one specialist only spell of every level, even if it did end up more or less like that. My thought process was more like this:
  • Specialist only spells should be fairly iconic for the archetype.
  • Most levels of spells should have a specialist only spell for that level.
  • Specialist only spells should be good spells.
  • Spells that are good, but constitute a "basic need" for the game are not specialist only spells. (Hence, Dispel Magic is not an Abjurer-only spell, even if it is probably the best 3rd level abjuration spell, and fairly iconic for the school. Flight is a notable exception, but that is rather easily available through items.)

This ended up being more or less 1 specialist only spell per school per spell level. But I wasn't consciously steering towards it, at least.


But, now, are there any particular spells you think should/shouldn't be specialist only spells?
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:56 PM   Top  -  End  -  #27
Draz74
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

Btw, I also mourn the loss of cantrips in general.

Also, the spell lists should definitely have the little [A] symbol to indicate whether spells are augmentable. Unless all spells are augmentable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernir View Post
In any case, I want to drastically increase the impact domain selection has on the Cleric. Clerics of the god of healing and love sharing 90% of its spell list with a Cleric of the god of skewering infants has always bugged me.
And I definitely want it to be possible to build a Cleric that can't properly cure people.
100% agreed on both points.

Quote:
But, now, are there any particular spells you think should/shouldn't be specialist only spells?
Sigh. Congratulations, you've convinced me to procrastinate working on my homework even longer.

Commentary on spell lists, both in terms of specialist-only spells and otherwise:

Level 1
Spoiler


Level 2
Spoiler


OK, that's all the level-by-level commentary I have patience for at the moment.

I will note, though, that at higher levels, I feel like a lot of the specialist-only spells aren't really all that iconic. Like, they're specialized enough that I don't see why anyone else would ever mind not having them on their list. Like Gentle Repose, or Nondetection. (Caveat: maybe you've made Nondetection much more powerful. Haven't read everything yet.)

Also: Enervation not specialist-only?
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Old 04-30-2011, 06:19 PM   Top  -  End  -  #28
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

So I finally got my way through this.

I love you for this and you deserve five of something that people really want that shows high status to others.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:56 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
Ernir
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

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Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Btw, I also mourn the loss of cantrips in general.
Psionics doesn't have them, or really any framework to support them. Partial spell points? 1st level spells are just the bottom, as-is. =/

The new Prestidigitation swallowed a few of them, though, and I gave that one for free to all Wizards.
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Also, the spell lists should definitely have the little [A] symbol to indicate whether spells are augmentable. Unless all spells are augmentable.
There is at least always the "null augment", meaning that it's always possible to spend more points on a spell in order to increase its save DC. Whether a spell also has a "new use" kind of augment isn't something I consider relevant enough to have in the spell listing, especially since you would usually have to read the full spell description anyway in order to know what the original use is.
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Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Sigh. Congratulations, you've convinced me to procrastinate working on my homework even longer.
I live to please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Commentary on spell lists, both in terms of specialist-only spells and otherwise:

Level 1
Spoiler
Spoiler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Level 2
Spoiler


OK, that's all the level-by-level commentary I have patience for at the moment.
Spoiler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
I will note, though, that at higher levels, I feel like a lot of the specialist-only spells aren't really all that iconic. Like, they're specialized enough that I don't see why anyone else would ever mind not having them on their list. Like Gentle Repose, or Nondetection. (Caveat: maybe you've made Nondetection much more powerful. Haven't read everything yet.)

Also: Enervation not specialist-only?
Gentle Repose had Clone merged into it, which makes it quite a lot bigger.
Nondetection is now a bit more reliable with the Augment, but otherwise no, not significantly more powerful. Dispel Magic may be the more known Abjuration of the level, but it's such a basic need that I couldn't justify it. =/

Problem with things being iconic is that not everyone has the same idea. The specialist only spells might just be my favourite spells.
Nothing sticks out to me as particularly horrible right now without having a particular name to look for. But no wonder, it's text I wrote myself, so of course I won't ever see the errors until they are pointed out.

Hmm, you're probably right, Enervation could do with being specialist only. Changed.
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So I finally got my way through this.

I love you for this and you deserve five of something that people really want that shows high status to others.
Great to hear it!
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:56 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
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Default Re: [3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

Cantrips could be cast for the low(?) cost of expending Focus. Maybe you can metamagic them with the same expenditure, so they're not suddenly harder than everything else to metamagic.
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