Who Wotches the Wotchmen?: A Webcomic Let's Read of The Wotch

[Gnoman]

I consider those in a different category.

[Lord Raziere]

Originally Posted by MReav

As someone who doesn't play the game or is particularly familiar with the lore, can you explain the significance of setting a DarkFic crossover in Mage: The Awakening (aside from the blatant Paradox backlash)? With Dresden Files, she's a blatant violator of the Laws of Magic, to the point where her actions necessitate her execution. With Mage, the Paradox thing is really the only thing I can think of.

Exactly. think of the horrible consequences she would suffer!

that and: Guardians of the Veil. Mage secret police.

basically she is one big Paradox magnet, and the all the other Mages don't like that, and y'know….try to kill her so that she stops glitching the universe.

[MReav]

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

Exactly. think of the horrible consequences she would suffer!

that and: Guardians of the Veil. Mage secret police.

basically she is one big Paradox magnet, and the all the other Mages don't like that, and y'know….try to kill her so that she stops glitching the universe.

Fair enough. But I prefer DF.

[Friv]

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Er...how so? I'm really not seeing that many parallels between them.

Alright, here are the reasons for me to consider them fairly parallel. Note that I did stop reading the Wotch during its ultra-hiatus, so I don't know what it's like in modern times. I'm sort of looking forwards to reading with the group when we get there.

1) They both started as lighthearted farce, attempted to insert serious plotlines, never quite managed to figure out how to balance the farce and the plotlines, and ultimately wound up with the "SRS BIZNESS" feeling kind of silly.
2) They both feature author avatars as main characters (quite small, I know, but I'm cataloguing here)
3) Both main characters never suffer any drawbacks from the terrible things that they do. Both main characters have major story arcs devoted to the consequences of their actions, in which no actual consequences are suffered.
4) Both main characters use mind control liberally, with no moral dissonance in play. Both characters are, in fact, congratulated for doing things that should be causing shock and horror.

And the big four...
5) Both comics started with kind of poor art styles and telegraphed writing, improved slowly, and then drastically stagnated.
6) Both comics feature serious moral questions that the authors clearly haven't considered.
7) Both authors seem like people that I would like in real life.
8) Both were comics that I was a huge fan of, until it gradually became impossible to ignore their flaws.

[Lord Seth]

I don't know how strong I find those parallels. Ignoring the personal/subjective ones, they either seem weak or are parallels I'm not sure I even agree with.

But it might be preferable if we were to avoid spoilers before the readthrough gets to them (particularly for Trazoi) to avoid prejudicing them, so I'll drop that.

Honestly though, I think the best Wotch parallel--at least for me--is Glee (well, the first season of Glee, anyway...or the first 13 episodes, at any rate). Despite them having some pretty big and noticeable flaws, they manage to be good enough in other areas that I enjoy them.

[Trazoi]

Most of what I know about the Wotch comes from negative comments about it, such as the Your Webcomic is Bad review I read years ago, so I know a little about some of the more notorious moments. However from the point of this exercise I'm reading and reviewing as if I know nothing about the webcomic at all except what I read in the webcomic itself. Even if I read a few spoilers I'll ignore them until I reach them. So I'm cool with whatever people want to discuss.

[Rappy]

Apologies for being late again. I had to admit my grandmother to the hospital yesterday afternoon, due to her contracting radiation pneumonitis.

Originally Posted by Trazoi

The art for the last page with Dark Lord Whathisface is pretty shocking. In general I'm ignoring art issues but dang.

I'm totally taking this phrase. Because calling Xaos by the name of Dark Lord Whatshisface seems rather apt (and better than Dark Helmet) until he becomes more prominent later on.

So far the Wotch is sticking to being a light farce and that's to its credit

...You know, thinking about it, it was possibly the more recent sharp turn into an attempt at "darker and edgier" that finally opened my eyes. Or I could be misremembering, but hey, that's what we're here for.

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

But it might be preferable if we were to avoid spoilers before the readthrough gets to them (particularly for Trazoi) to avoid prejudicing them, so I'll drop that.

That's a fairly good idea. If you absolutely must talk about one, though, feel free to use a spoiler box to talk to each other. I'm not completely adverse to them.

Anyway, let's get on with things...


Part 4: SchizophrANNEia
Things are looking wacky for our Tandians once again. A transmuter, with three things to do at one time? What ever could this mean?! Also, I just noticed that the poor band teacher is the only of the three faculty members shown here that doesn't get his name immediately mentioned. How sad.

And, of course, the obvious happens. Repeatedly. See, people, this is why you should always beta test your spells before putting them into practice in tight situations. Say no to unprotected spells.

As is expected, creating monolithic personality entities where one emotion or aspect is expanded into its own overblown id entity doesn't go well. Not well at all. Can you say "mindscrew", kids? Good! I knew you could.

Yes, this is our first case of the more unpleasant side of The Wotch. Now, admittedly, this case is one I don't feel antipathy over in the way that some do, because it's a case of an angry person and an idiot rather than the real Anne doing the dirty work. On the other hand, the fact that her personified ids were capable of doing this means that, in some tiny corner of her mind, Anne had thought about such things... The mindscrew was just a case of misreading what Professor Sorgaz meant, but at the same time I can't quite completely deny the speculators their speculation.

Meanwhile, we have Jason doing what he does best1: not giving a damn. Of course, Robin's not much better at giving a damn until it turns out that, surprise surpise, fracturing your id that many times isn't exactly healthy. But hey, our heroes have their solution, so it's off to the town montage!

And a montage we get, with Jason and Robin heading out on the town to gather up Sarcasm, Sorrow, Gluttony, and Drug Pusher Paranoia, as well as others in this motley crew of madness. And then we get...

Oh, Robin. Robin, Robin, Robin. Stop being an enabler. Don't ignore the elephant in the room so easily. This is the third of Anne's ids that has had her thoughts turn this way, so you should probably realize there's a problem when she has a desire to rewrite the wires of the mind so frivolously.

...But enough of that little scene! Let's talk evil. Let's talk leather. Let's talk...bondage. It appears that Anne's got a bit of a dark side2, and she's wanting to play hardball. It turns out that Anne's evil side has been taking Spell Focus: Evocation, because she's actually learned blaster magic, and decides to let loose. Things are looking pretty bad for our heroine, aren't they?

Nope. Through mistakes and overconfidence, Anneger3 loses this fight, so it's back to the collective with her! And I'm sure we'll never, ever, eeeeeever see her again. Just like Dark Lord Whatshisface.


Oh, and Robin's apparently got the memory of a goldfish, as he doesn't refer to a certain cheerleading incident. We also get some exposition on just what the Dark Lord and his pointy-ear vizier are up to. Do I smell foreshadowing?

There's also this little canon one-shot, but I honestly can't be arsed to make a comment on it.


Thoughts
Eyup. That sure was some mindscrew right there.

...Okay, I can't leave it at just that, as much as I want to make a one-line joke out of it. I honestly didn't remember this story being quite this bad. And the sad thing? It doesn't reflect so much on Anne, but on Robin! Sure, Anne's ids did the mindscrews, but Robin actively knew about one of the two...and didn't say a damn thing! He was more concerned with the fact that he wants to get into Anne's pants skirt and her Love id seemed to share his affections! Dude, what is wrong with you? This situation could have been rectified by you taking the simple action of stating "hey, Anne, one of your ids turned some guys into cheerleaders and then completely rewrote their minds".

Geeze...

EDIT: Oh, and this is the origin of the spin-off series Cheer!. I guess that's kind of a thing.


Notes

1. Other than being the prerequisite comic nerd or redhead chaser.
2. Besides the whole mental manipulation without consent stuff.
3. Yes, that is really her name.

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Next time, we get to our first story with a cover, as we tackle Part 5: Angelique, the Defective Djinn!

[Trazoi]

Originally Posted by Rappy

...Okay, I can't leave it at just that, as much as I want to make a one-line joke out of it. I honestly didn't remember this story being quite this bad. And the sad thing? It doesn't reflect so much on Anne, but on Robin! Sure, Anne's ids did the mindscrews, but Robin actively knew about one of the two...and didn't say a damn thing! He was more concerned with the fact that he wants to get into Anne's pants skirt and her Love id seemed to share his affections! Dude, what is wrong with you? This situation could have been rectified by you taking the simple action of stating "hey, Anne, one of your ids turned some guys into cheerleaders and then completely rewrote their minds".

Yeah, that's the issue I had with Part 4. I can almost excuse it by the tone being all silly, but it's a little too much when multiple people are left transmogrified and mindwiped at the end of the story. As well as having Robin know and not say anything.

It also didn't feel right how only Anger Anne was the only negative Anne from the perspective of the story, as other Annes were busy ruining stuff too. The justification is that all the other Annes missing crucial parts of her conscience, but if that's the case more of the Annes should have been more villanous, or at least callous towards the other Annes. Or maybe I'm overthinking it.

Still, I have to say given I knew about the athletes-forcibly-transformed-into-cheerleeders thing beforehand, the actual storyline wasn't as awful as I feared - probably because the tone is still fairly silly. It is starting to dip towards the serious side though, and a smidge more and stuff like that will feel a lot creepier.

Edit: And Rappy, I hope your grandmother is okay.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Acanous

The Wotch tries to keep things light for the most part, and doesn't pander to the base as much as say, Exiern.

That's really not saying much when one couldn't draw proper fanservice to save the creators' lives and the other is all about competently done fanservice.

Originally Posted by Imgran

(physical and mental transformation there, talk about your fridge horror).

That's not fridge horror. That's straight up amoral mindrape. From the hero.

Originally Posted by Kizor

Probably about My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, too.

What? You're actually comparing that to both The Wotch *and* Dominic Deegan?

...I don't even...

[Acanous]

Kizor just hates Ponies.
Also, did you SEE the early release of Exiern, before the author started paying a studio to do it for him? The art in The Wotch is three steps better.
The comparison stands.

As far as fanservice goes, I know some oldschool wotch fans, and they mostly read for transformations, so I suppose the comic has quite a bit of "Fanservice", although it's not the traditional sort.

[Kizor]

Yes, I am. And probably with good reason. I'm saying that audience's reaction makes all the difference. An audience that's willing to go along with the story often ignores or accepts things that would sink the story on their own.

This definitely applies to Dominic Deegan (which has fans despite worldbuilding that crumbles at a touch), and this applies to Friendship is Magic. That show has funny writing and pleasant characters, which is why its adult viewers aren't bothered about the fact that it's a childrens' cartoon about pastel-colored horses who have oft-predictable magical adventures with a moral about friendship at the end.

To quote someone on another forum,

Yeah, this show somehow manages to evoke the MST3K mantra without invoking it.

Twilight has a wooden fridge, and Fluttershy has electric lights, but Applejack lives in a barn and Rainbow Dash built herself a castle, from magical clouds. This world is made of magic and nonsensical gibberish, but the characters hold up, in spite of their fairytale/contemporary setting. Pinkie Pie manages to have serious emotional problems, even though she can break the fourth wall, and summon props from other incarnations of the show.

For some reason, that just tells the complainy part of your brain, "You'd better sit this one out."

Eff, I'm speaking in such generalities that this probably applies to all fiction. Strengths cover faults.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Acanous

Kizor just hates Ponies.

If that's all... That is a truly impressive amount of hate to make one blind to the world of difference in terms of professionalism alone just for the sake of a dig at ponies.

Originally Posted by Kizor

Eff, I'm speaking in such generalities that this probably applies to all fiction. Strengths cover faults.

Either it's so general it's verging on a truism and taking ponies into a thread where they probably wouldn't have wanted to go or needlessly insulting a relatively well done childrens' cartoon show by associating it with bottom of the barrel webcomics.

Originally Posted by Acanous

Also, did you SEE the early release of Exiern, before the author started paying a studio to do it for him? The art in The Wotch is three steps better.
The comparison stands.

As far as I'm concerned there really isn't an Exiern before that, what you see there is nothing more than the fevered dream of a madman before he began his project of shameless pandering of almost-softcore porn fanservice.

The Wotch, on the other hand, needed 2 people to produce art that, even considering the wide range of poorly drawn smut one can find on the internet, is still scraping the bottom of the barrel for things that could be consumed as "fanservice." Even after the change over to Samson, as far as producing an aesthetically pleasing form, they're still several degrees off target.

Originally Posted by Acanous

As far as fanservice goes, I know some oldschool wotch fans, and they mostly read for transformations, so I suppose the comic has quite a bit of "Fanservice", although it's not the traditional sort.

As odd as that is when the narrative just seems to be irredeemably bad and they could have found better art by trawling deviantART, even back in the early days of the site.

[Kizor]

Let's get this cleared up.

I don't hate ponies and don't think I've ever said that I do, I had and have no intention of making a dig at ponies, I had and have no intention of needlessly insulting the show, nor insulting it in any other way.

I was ruminating on the funny way enjoyment changes perspective, which is probably a truism, yes.

This applies to bad fiction like Dominic Deegan and even to quality fiction like My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. I don't think I have associated them in any other way. I don't think the association is insulting.

I can't say if I have taken ponies into a thread where they probably wouldn't have wanted to go, since I don't really understand that.

Hopefully we can lay that to rest.

[Lord Seth]

So, out of curiosity...am I the only one here who still genuinely likes the comic? It seems everyone else here dislikes it presently.

[Androgeus]

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

So, out of curiosity...am I the only one here who still genuinely likes the comic? It seems everyone else here dislikes it presently.

I think it's alright. Not the greatest web comic in the world, but I like it.

[Gnoman]

I've been a fan since I found the comic years ago.

On thing you need to keep in mind about this arc. Robin didn't like the jocks. His reaction is less of forgetting it as it is "five less idiots to deal with."

[Pie Guy]

I liked it on an archive trawl, like DD. Unlike DD, it had some points of merit beyond puns. I can ignore a lot of flaws when I only spend enough time thinking about a strip until the next one loads. Now that I have to wait for updates, I'm much more ambivalent.

[Trazoi]

For me, the key is what the work (webcomic/show/whatever) presents as important to the general theme and tone it's trying to convey.

Taking MLP:FiM for example, it's a children's cartoon about talking ponies that also imparts a short morality lesson about friendship and other good behaviour. It's clear that most of the world building is done based on the "Rule of Funny/Cool" as that's not critical so getting stuck into anachronisms or too far into the world building issues misses the point, which IMO is as it should be because, after all, it's a show about colourful talking ponies.

What is important about the show is the morality lessons, so occasionally elements like in the recent episode where Rarity and Pinkie hustle shopkeepers into unfavourable deals grates with me a lot more than having goats with microphones.

With the Wotch, currently I feel the point is high-school kids having wacky magical adventures without anything deeper than that, and transmorgifications are done mainly because it's funny. So as long as the tone is kept farcical I'm willing to accept that. It does however mean that transmogrification can't be explored dramatically without Anne being called out for stuff that happened in Part 4. The tone is starting to crack with Anger Anne's transformation of the teacher being treated as a dramatic moment, but so far IMO it's not critically broken yet.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Gnoman

On thing you need to keep in mind about this arc. Robin didn't like the jocks. His reaction is less of forgetting it as it is "five less idiots to deal with."

Which means he's an accomplice to Murder of Personality. I'm supposed to like that in a protagonist as anything but a horrible, horrible flaw?

[Gnoman]

I don't disagree. I simply wanted to point out that there's a difference in shrugging off the alteration of the testosterone-overdosed abuse factories that are stereotypical jocks (which this set embodies) as opposed to that of some random person. zthe former, if not necessarily "better," is at least more understandable.

[Rappy]

Part 5: Angelique, the Defective Djinn
Covers: they are a thing now.

Magic shops: they are also a thing. While mentioned last chapter, we now actually get to see the Magic Touch, a little hole-in-the-wall apothecary run by a fellow named Milo. It is a wondrous place for potions, ingredients, and mindscrews.

One dual-cast of command and tailor memory later, and Jason is back home with his questionable prize: a genie!1 Good to see that "wishing a genie" free is covered rather early. Then again, exposition seems to be an innate genie power, so it seems only right the questions were answered promptly.

Of course, one of those things you learn in Genie 101 is that djinn, ifrit, marid, and others of their ilk aren't known for granting wishes quite the way you want them...and would you look at that. Still, the number of damns given by Jason is at its typical ratio of 02. Well, at first, until it turns out that sometimes you don't happen to have exclusive wishing rights. Do I smell wacky hijinx again? I do believe I do!

As expected, various hijinx do indeed ensue, including the revenge of the draconic NPCs, a case of I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, and many failed Will saves.

But what's this? A self-sacrifice loophole? Why yes, yes it is. Angelique must give up her genie home to save the little spot on Earth she's found herself in, and the heroes luckily have a case of the rare altruistic genie3.

And thus, Angelique walks off into the sunset, where I'm sure we'll neeeeeeeever see her again. Just like Dark Lord Whatshisface4.


Thoughts
Reading this story as-is makes it definitely feel like yet another average, middle-of-the-road monster of the week story for a comic still in its infancy. In hindsight, it's pretty damn important, but I can't exactly give it marks for that in the format of a Let's Read.

Oh, also, first time of seeing Robin's female form, so I guess there's that to note.


Notes

1. Technically, djinni is singular, djinn plural, but I'll let it pass on account of Anglicization often being quite befuddling. Oddly enough, in spite of the djinn being present, other types of genie are never really shown in the comic as far as I can remember.
2. This is about as good a time as any to note my feelings on Jason. While he's supposedly apathetic, he comes across more as passionate...as long as he himself is involved. In other words, Jason is less apathetic and more self-serving. This is fine, though, as it's an interesting enough character flaw to have.
3. Of course, one can't blame most genies for being so jerkish after all that time spent in servitude.
4. Who, for the record, has a colorful demon entourage.

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Next time, we'll be heading into Part 5: Slumber Party...of Doom!, wherein we meet more human side-characters and see our heroes face off against a villainous entity I'm sure we'll neeeeeeever see again.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Rappy

I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream

Things like this are part of why I hope you will reconsider your stance about never commenting on the art at all, as I'm sure you'll understand, what with having read through Koorly's review of Dominic Deegan serving as the inspiration for this thread.

The style and tone do not lend themselves at all to moments such as this.

[Trazoi]

I was okay with this part for the genie fuelled transformation wacky hijinks gradually escalating worse and worse. I'm not so sure about the ending trying to go for bittersweet about Angelique losing her genieness. If the comic is going to play transmogrifing random people into girls for fun and keeping them there, it can't play the consequences of a sacrifice card without some serious values dissonance.

On art: The art in the Dark Lord Whathisface page is again noticeable bad. What is it about these pages that make them look so much worse?

But the biggest art fail, which really bugged me the entire last half of this section, is that ROBIN. IS. BLONDE. Sorry Wotch, blonde doesn't equal "bright yellow". You've coloured his hair is several shades too light to be considered brunette.
...yeah I'm going to be a stickler for hair shades in my webcomics.

[Terry576]

I've trawled through the Wotch archives... twice? Three times? Back when I was 11 (and severely depressed), and again when I was 13 (and sexually confused), and again when I was 15 (and just a bored man, desperate for a decent webcomic - and never finding one.)

The Wotch is terrible. The art style hurts my eyes now - I mean, my doodles are better than this. This is from when I was 14 - the legs are terrible, the perspective is off, but it's still miles better than the two people who create the Wotch.

It didn't take two people for me to make this (Fairly recent, few months old), and that's a massive style shift from two years ago. The Wotch is only inexcusable because until recently they used the same MSPaint Art style. And Anne... my god.

She makes me want to write HP, DF, or Index crossovers - because she breaks all the rules. She would be in Azkaban in minutes, executed in a second, or orbitally nuked in hours. She breaks all the rules that most mages uphold - "Stay secret, stay hidden", "Do not meddle in the affairs of mortals", et cetera.

Anne is a terrible character - she's never punished for her actions, always gets away with turning her friends into women, and never ever is harmed by what she does. Robin is an enabler.

The only decent character is Jason - because he's a snide, self-serving smarmfest.

I hate the Wotch. So very, very much. Good luck to you Traz - you'll eventually have to comment on the art. Because even after years...

It

doesn't

get

better.

[MReav]

Originally Posted by Terry576

She makes me want to write HP, DF, or Index crossovers - because she breaks all the rules. She would be in Azkaban in minutes, executed in a second, or orbitally nuked in hours.

What's this about orbitally nuked?

[Terry576]

Index Power Level is ludicrous compared to the Wotch.

Imagine Breaker nullifies everything she tries.

Fiamma of the Right blasts her out of the water in seconds.

And Accelerator? Oh the things he would do to utterly murder and eviscerate Anne Onymous.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by MReav

What's this about orbitally nuked?

It's the only way to be sure.

[MReav]

Originally Posted by Terry576

Index Power Level is ludicrous compared to the Wotch.[/i]

I'll be honest, I am not a fan of curb-stomp crossovers. I'd rather something that would be potentially entertaining.

[Terry576]

Considering my current project is terrible AMAZING crackfic about Fate/Stay Night (SABER IT IS YOUR FATE TO STAY IN THE KITCHEN), I love curbstomp crossovers.

And with the Wotch - everything is a curbstomp crossover. She can only violate the laws of gender and species - not the laws of personality and causality. Well, she can violate the laws of personality - but could she do it to the Wardens? Could she do it to Voldemort?
Voldebabe/Harry OTP

[Trazoi]

I'm going into reading the comic trying to give it a fair apprisal, and that's what I'll do.

So far, the art isn't that distracting from the bulk of the comic, which is teens discussing stuff at highschool. It's only really jarring with the Dark Lord Whatshisface stuff, where it is shockingly bad.

And I have to admit so far I'm not minding the storylines. I think it's because I have a soft spot for Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie. My fear is that since Cerebus Syndrome invariably sets in with these kinds of webcomics, at some point it's going to all go to hell.