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Homebrew Design Roll up your sleeves and get working: there's lots of homebrewin' to be done! Post your custom creation for critiques or review those of your peers.

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Old 03-08-2012, 10:07 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Grod_The_Giant
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Default Revised core spells

So... yeah. Revised spells. Not everything in the PHB has been touched, but I've tried to hit a lot of the worst offenders, while simultaneously pumping up weak evocations and changing a few spells which always kind of bugged me. These should probably be pared with my general magic nerfs, but they should stand alone as well. I've tried to italicize the subtle changes.

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Last edited by Grod_The_Giant : 03-15-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 03-08-2012, 11:09 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
DiBastet
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Default Re: Revised core spells

I like your idea with evocations. I already use a little extra juice on evocations on my games by changing every elemental and energy spell to evocation, and noting that evocation spells aren't affected by SR, but I always found their damage still lacking.

I'm going to expand on the basis of your idea of increase damage. For area spells, 1st level uses d4; 2nd and 3rd use d6; 4th and 5th use d8; 6th and 7th use d10; and 8th and 9th use 10/level.

I like this kind of quick and easy solutions.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:51 AM   Top  -  End  -  #3
MesiDoomstalker
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Default Re: Revised core spells

A few notes:

The psuedo-strength check on Knock needs a bit clearer and more official language. Something like "the caster makes a check to forcibly open the target, as if it were making a Strength check. The caster adds the modifier for its primary casting stat and half his caster level to this check instead of his strength modifier." or someting similar.

On Daylight, the duration of the Dazzled condition on a Successful saving throw needs to be clarified. I assume its still 1d6 rounds, but its always good to be clear and precise. Plus most effects that are partial on a save and do a die roll do either half (for damage), 1 round/minute (for durations) or a die lower (for durations as well) and possibly decreasing time intervals (minute to a round similar).

Baleful Polymorph needs a bit of clarification on the saving throws to throwoff the spell. Saying "Equal or Greater than its Wisdom modifier" is unneccesary as once you hit equal, the "forgets everything" kicks in and can't continue making saving throws as above. Also, is the limit of failed saves based on its original Wisdom modifier or its new animal one? If it's the latter, its not much of a fix as not many vaild targets have an impressive Wisdom. Also, if the save to shakeoff the effect (after failing the initial one) is made, what does the next set of Fortitude saves do? That needs clarification.

On Freezing Sphere, when it freezes water, does the freezing extend beyond the area of effect? Its somewhat unclear (at least to me).

Flesh to Stone, when are the saving throws? Are they all at once, making a new one each time they fail till they succeed or fail 3 consecutive saves? Or is it one saving throw per round? A bit of clarification is needed.

Sunburst seems like an insta-kill for any and all undead, period. Seems a bit powerful, but whatever.

Meteor Swarm, the last option to affect a single area can you still direct the (presumed) super meteor at a target to deal Bludgeoning damage? Or is it a pure AoE spell if you choose that option?
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Old 03-09-2012, 02:07 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Deepbluediver
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Default Re: Revised core spells

These are great; I'm working on my own fix for the various game-breaking spells, so I'll definitely be borrowing a few of these.

One spell that I'm still stuck on though is timestop. In my version I've given it an exp penalty and made it harder to affect other creatures while timestopped so it's less of a default insta-win button and more of something to be reserved for real emergencies, but I'm still worried that extra rounds give casters too many options, particularly against other humanoids.
Any thoughts?
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Last edited by Deepbluediver : 03-09-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
Grod_The_Giant
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Default Re: Revised core spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiBastet View Post
I'm going to expand on the basis of your idea of increase damage. For area spells, 1st level uses d4; 2nd and 3rd use d6; 4th and 5th use d8; 6th and 7th use d10; and 8th and 9th use 10/level.

I like this kind of quick and easy solutions.
That's actually a pretty nice quick-and-easy boost. I had no such system, I must confess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
The psuedo-strength check on Knock needs a bit clearer and more official language. Something like "the caster makes a check to forcibly open the target, as if it were making a Strength check. The caster adds the modifier for its primary casting stat and half his caster level to this check instead of his strength modifier." or someting similar.
Roger that.

Quote:
On Daylight, the duration of the Dazzled condition on a Successful saving throw needs to be clarified. I assume its still 1d6 rounds, but its always good to be clear and precise. Plus most effects that are partial on a save and do a die roll do either half (for damage), 1 round/minute (for durations) or a die lower (for durations as well) and possibly decreasing time intervals (minute to a round similar).
Will do.

Quote:
Baleful Polymorph needs a bit of clarification on the saving throws to throwoff the spell. Saying "Equal or Greater than its Wisdom modifier" is unneccesary as once you hit equal, the "forgets everything" kicks in and can't continue making saving throws as above. Also, is the limit of failed saves based on its original Wisdom modifier or its new animal one? If it's the latter, its not much of a fix as not many vaild targets have an impressive Wisdom. Also, if the save to shakeoff the effect (after failing the initial one) is made, what does the next set of Fortitude saves do? That needs clarification.
I'll work on it. Thanks.

Quote:
On Freezing Sphere, when it freezes water, does the freezing extend beyond the area of effect? Its somewhat unclear (at least to me).
Will clarify.

Quote:
Flesh to Stone, when are the saving throws? Are they all at once, making a new one each time they fail till they succeed or fail 3 consecutive saves? Or is it one saving throw per round? A bit of clarification is needed.
Whoops. I'll fix that.

Quote:
Sunburst seems like an insta-kill for any and all undead, period. Seems a bit powerful, but whatever.
Hmm...

Quote:
Meteor Swarm, the last option to affect a single area can you still direct the (presumed) super meteor at a target to deal Bludgeoning damage? Or is it a pure AoE spell if you choose that option?
[/quote]
You can get either the classic 4 individually-targeted meteors, or you can do what the spell ought to do and rain fire from the skies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
One spell that I'm still stuck on though is timestop. In my version I've given it an exp penalty and made it harder to affect other creatures while timestopped so it's less of a default insta-win button and more of something to be reserved for real emergencies, but I'm still worried that extra rounds give casters too many options, particularly against other humanoids.
Any thoughts?
I knew I was forgetting something.

Let's see... probably some kind of mounting penalty for acting during the stopped time-- the body and mind can't keep up with the strain, sort of thing.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:39 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
ericgrau
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Default Re: Revised core spells

Grease: 1/4 speed, round down by default, so 5 feet? RAW allows 5 foot crawling.
Glitterdust: So... in combat this is save or -2 AC. Um...

Likewise I found most were either nerfed into worthlessness or the nerf had almost had no effect. Pathfinder nerfed glitterdust by allowing a new save each round which is still a pretty hefty nerf yet without pounding the spell's usefulness into oblivion. And it's simpler. You might try similar things.

I could go line by line into other spells but the issues were similar. Likewise I could get into topics like ways to manage blindness instead of nerfing but that'd be a bit of a tangent. My basic thought is do something simple without go overboard if you want to make a spell less popular when you game without making it worthless.
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:24 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
bloodtide
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Default Re: Revised core spells

Most of your fixes look just fine, and are ones I've made and used for years. But mine are a bit different for some spells.

Knock-The spell gives a flat +10 bonus to the casters Open Locks skill or Strength Check, to overcome the Open Lock DC of the lock or the Strength check DC of a stuck door.If used to open an arcane locked door, the caster must make a Caster Level Check vs. the Arcane Locks DC, with a +10 insight bonus.

This keeps knock useful to open doors and such, but generally only easy ones. And my plus is static and does not go by caster level. Plus the addition to open locks and strength checks is a nice boost to more non-spellcasters. In short a spell caster won't be able to over shadow a character with the skill open locks or great strength. For example a 20th level wizard would still only get a +10 to their open locks skill(likely zero), but any rogue type character of the same level would get a big boost to their open locks skill of +20 some. But it still leaves the door open for a spellcaster like a wizard to become 'rogueish', but at a cost.



Gate-By naming a particular being or type of being as you cast the spell, you may cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature, who must then make a Will save or the gate will pull the subject through to the caster. Any creature pulled through the gate is not automatically controlled by the caster.

An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time. To control a creature the caster must use additional spells, magic or skills to get the desired result.

You may simply ask the creature to preform a service. It's reaction depends on your alignments, the creatures attitude and the type of service asked to preform. A simple service can take no more then one round per level to do and must be immediate. You may choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from the called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward. In general, a gift of several 100 gp per day of service is reasonable. (Unfortunately, some creatures want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which may involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

My version of gate gives the creature a save to negate. This alone puts to stop the gate abuse of calling powerful creatures, as they will make their save. But it does leave the door open a bit for a spellcaster as they can always buff up the DC of the spell.

My version of gate has the creature always uncontrolled. The spell caster must take an additional action to control or bargain with the gated in creature. The caster is free to use any spells, magic, effects or skills to control the gated creature. This again has the nice effect that the caster can plan ahead to control something. It also keeps the spellcaster from gating in odd things, as they will have more things to control something like themselves(for example a lich has abilities to command undead). And if the caster can't control the gated creature, they can still just ask and bargain for help(like other conjurations). But again this will go by alignment and what is asked to be done.

Last edited by bloodtide : 03-10-2012 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 03-11-2012, 08:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: Revised core spells

For the most part these look really good. Couple of things that are problematic for me though:

Adding a save to Forcecage is well and good, but in my opinion should come with the removal of the expensive component. The base effect just isn't good enough to justify that kind of expense if it allows a save.

Meteor Swarm deserves its glory...but unless I'm misreading it, you're talking 60 damage per level if all four blasts overlap, plus 200 damage and save denial if you succeed the touch attacks on a single target. I'd probably take out the area overlapping if you're buffing the base damage of the spell that much. The tactical advantage of distributing four blasts and the ability to tack on up to 200 extra damage and deny saves for targeting the meteors gives the normal version sufficient utility to keep it competitive with the army-killer version, I think (though maybe their areas could be brought back up to 40' radius...)
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:39 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Grod_The_Giant
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Default Re: Revised core spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae View Post
Adding a save to Forcecage is well and good, but in my opinion should come with the removal of the expensive component. The base effect just isn't good enough to justify that kind of expense if it allows a save.
Fair enough. Cost removed.

Quote:
Meteor Swarm deserves its glory...but unless I'm misreading it, you're talking 60 damage per level if all four blasts overlap, plus 200 damage and save denial if you succeed the touch attacks on a single target. I'd probably take out the area overlapping if you're buffing the base damage of the spell that much. The tactical advantage of distributing four blasts and the ability to tack on up to 200 extra damage and deny saves for targeting the meteors gives the normal version sufficient utility to keep it competitive with the army-killer version, I think (though maybe their areas could be brought back up to 40' radius...)
Good point. The damage no longer stacks.

Also, I've now actually made the changes to the spells I mentioned in the last post. Not sure how I screwed up that one.

EDIT: Also, Timestop. Not sure if the penalties are big enough, though.
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Last edited by Grod_The_Giant : 03-14-2012 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Grod_The_Giant
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Default Re: Revised core spells

Good news: added some cleric spells. Bad news: the forum told me the post was now too long, and I didn't think to reserve a post. Whoops.

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