Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

[Kato]

Thought I'd get a new thread started since we are beyond the 50 page mark. Voting for the official title should be finished somewhere on the first two pages, though...


btw, did I miss it or was there a reason we didn't discuss the Springtime of youth chapter last week? (Like... Akamaru's penis or Hinata getting pissed on...)


edit: Title has one nomination and three votes for now, if something beats that I'll change again.

[Socratov]

well, i vote for "Naruto IV: Hidden Village in plain sight" I liked that subtle suggestion...

[Madara]

My vote goes to
Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

[Xondoure]

Originally Posted by Madara

My vote goes to
Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

Seconded.

[Traab]

I liked Naruto IV: A New Hope.

[Madara]

Now to actually talk about Naruto:

Yay, a bunch of fights are happening./ sarcasm

I love combat, don't get me wrong, I love all the cool jutsu and such. But, it slows down the manga...sooo much. Now that we have three fights going on, it's gonna take a couple weeks to progress the plot. Plus, I'm betting we're gonna have some sort of flash back/"You won, now I'll tell you stuff" from Tobi, Kabuto, or Madara.

In the end, the combat is just better in the Anime because it goes fast enough to keep my interest.

[Sotharsyl]

I'm interested in one thing in the Kabuto/Itachi/Sasuke battle, Kabuto is trying to get a advantage by getting Sasuke on his side but his arguments don't work due to the fact that Sasuke now knows more about how Itachi was ordered to do it by Kohona.

But think back to why Itachi is there in the first place, his pre recorded "Defend Kohona!" brainwashing was used on him instead of Sasuke and Nagato was still there and under Kabuto's control while Itachi explained it all, because he did explain it before fighting Nagato right?

Now logically shouldn't Kabuto try the "Your brother tried to brainwash you !" card to divide the brothers before going into battle?

Sasuke hasn't heard that one yet and while he should be weary of anything Kabuto says Itachi as a Edo fighting Kabuto is pretty weird no, either he's under someone else's control but Edo Tensei is a very rare jutsu or Kabuto might be telling the truth.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Sotharsyl

Now logically shouldn't Kabuto try the "Your brother tried to brainwash you !" card to divide the brothers before going into battle?

I see where you are coming from but a) he has no reason to trust him and b) it wasn't really a "bad brainwashing" as far as things go... considering what Kabuto/Orchimaru wanted to do to him Itachi is still a more likeable person and I don't think Kabuto isn't aware of that. He'll fail miserably so it's a waste of time... Or maybe he'll try but I'm sure it won't work.

[Sotharsyl]

Originally Posted by Kato

I see where you are coming from but a) he has no reason to trust him and b) it wasn't really a "bad brainwashing" as far as things go... considering what Kabuto/Orchimaru wanted to do to him Itachi is still a more likeable person and I don't think Kabuto isn't aware of that. He'll fail miserably so it's a waste of time... Or maybe he'll try but I'm sure it won't work.

I have to say that in principle there isn't such a thing as "a good brainwashing" especially Itachi's.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Sotharsyl

I have to say that in principle there isn't such a thing as "a good brainwashing" especially Itachi's.

Well, I'm all for freedom of choice and stuff but there's a difference between "kill all the ones you loved" brainwashing" and "go back and protect your home" brainwashing, isn't there?

[Sotharsyl]

Originally Posted by Kato

Well, I'm all for freedom of choice and stuff but there's a difference between "kill all the ones you loved" brainwashing" and "go back and protect your home" brainwashing, isn't there?

Ah there's tons of options with Koto and Itachi's well his plan would have activated only if Sasuke atacked Naruto which for simplicity's sake let's assume Itachi was right and the only way the sequence would work is:

Sasuke attacks Naruto << Sasuke was attacking Kohona << Sasuke found out that the Kohona higher ups ordered the killing of Sasuke's family.

So Itachi gives him programming which means "go now and fight to defend the ones who ordered the execution of your family" after all the things Sasuke just learned, the truth still fresh in his mind he would be forced to do this.

Wouldn't it have been more merciful to issue a "Go away and never attempt to destroy Kohona" that way Sasuke wouldn't be forced to defend the Elders and leave in the place he knows and I'm sorry to repeat myself again ordered his family's execution.

But I guess Itachi couldn't leave the pour defenceless ninja of Kohona without a Uchiha protector.

[MammonAzrael]

Originally Posted by Sotharsyl

But I guess Itachi couldn't leave the pour defenceless ninja of Kohona without a Uchiha protector.

To be fair, Uchiha's are stupidly powerful and some of the best protection around.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Sotharsyl

So Itachi gives him programming which means "go now and fight to defend the ones who ordered the execution of your family" after all the things Sasuke just learned, the truth still fresh in his mind he would be forced to do this.

Oh, right, because Konoha is only the elders and it's not like he'd protect all the good people and his former friends as well and probably be happier helping them instead of just trying to kill any and everyone he hates...
Also, we don't even know Sasuke would have to find out about it, all he had to do was meet naruto under all kinds of circumstances. Tobi telling Sasuke about it was of course possible but in no way had to have happened at that point.
When he planted the Jutsu Sasuke was still working for Oro, iirc.

[jindra34]

Originally Posted by MammonAzrael

To be fair, Uchiha's are stupidly powerful and some of the best protection around.

I'd append to that statement; when they actually care. So far we have a count of 1 Uchiha who actually seemed loyal to his village.

[Lord Raziere]

what about Obito? he seemed a nice guy….

[Madara]

Originally Posted by jindra34

I'd append to that statement; when they actually care. So far we have a count of 1 Uchiha who actually seemed loyal to his village.

3: Obito, Shisui, Itachi

Also, arguably Madara yes, Madara.

[jindra34]

Originally Posted by Madara

3: Obito, Shisui, Itachi

Also, arguably Madara yes, Madara.

Forgot about Obito, and honestly Shisui might be but honestly I think we have a decided lack of info on him so its kinda up for grabs. And Madara, the guy who originally sicked Kyubi on the Leaf as a loyal villager, are you kidding me? He may have been loyal to his clan and for other personal reasons but I doubt he was loyal to a village ever.

[Madara]

Madara: Yes, he's a glorious bastard. He's totally clan first, but..remember why he did things?

If you look at his actions, its like this.

Self>Clan>Village>Others

He only did his actions because he thought it was best for his clan, and for the village.

Its a case similar to Danzo, he's a jerk, but he wants Konoha to be the best. In some ways he was quite loyal to the village. He just wanted the Uchiha to be on top.

[Sotharsyl]

Originally Posted by Kato

Oh, right, because Konoha is only the elders and it's not like he'd protect all the good people and his former friends as well and probably be happier helping them instead of just trying to kill any and everyone he hates...
Also, we don't even know Sasuke would have to find out about it, all he had to do was meet naruto under all kinds of circumstances. Tobi telling Sasuke about it was of course possible but in no way had to have happened at that point.
When he planted the Jutsu Sasuke was still working for Oro, iirc.

If I were Kabuto my argumment,after learning how much Sasuke loves Itachi again would be:

"Itachi allready sacrificied all the Uchiha clan's lives for Kohona's safety once and now if you didn't willingly devote your life for Kohona's safety he was going to force you to do it,seems pretty clear he values Kohona over all others even includding you his little brother /insert_snakey_tongue_pose"

It would tie in nicely with Sasuke saying he didn't want to walk down the path he was tricked into, and that was merely Tsukiomying him for added hatred

I don't get it why couldn't Itachi use a "You're now a pacifistic painter now go make some art" why did he have to made it about fighting for Kohona.

[Traab]

Because as has already been said, konoha couldnt POSSIBLY survive without an uchiha there keeping an eye on things. Besides, an uchiha painter would just be a plagiarist bastard, hated everywhere he tries to peddle other peoples work with his name on it. As a ninja thats actually considered impressive.

[Madara]

Originally Posted by Traab

Because as has already been said, konoha couldnt POSSIBLY survive without an uchiha there keeping an eye on things.

I debate this. Konoha is plenty strong without the Uchiha. Granted, they are at 1/2 strength, but they are definitely a contender for 1st or 2nd strongest village.

They have some pretty strong clans. We don't know much about the other nations, but I don't think Konoha has ever lost a war.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Originally Posted by Madara

Yay, a bunch of fights are happening.

That's pretty much the whole point of the manga.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Madara

I debate this. Konoha is plenty strong without the Uchiha. Granted, they are at 1/2 strength, but they are definitely a contender for 1st or 2nd strongest village.

They have some pretty strong clans. We don't know much about the other nations, but I don't think Konoha has ever lost a war.

Pretty sure Traab was joking there...


I don't think there is much, or anything to seperate the brothers, no matter what Kabuto says.. Sasuke is obsessed with Itachi and Itachi is obsessed with Sasuke... gay incest love ftw...

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Kato

Pretty sure Traab was joking there...


I don't think there is much, or anything to seperate the brothers, no matter what Kabuto says.. Sasuke is obsessed with Itachi and Itachi is obsessed with Sasuke... gay incest love ftw...

Mmmm, gay incest bishy/emo lovin. Thats like thirty layers of hawtness right there. Only way to make it better would be to include naruto in a love triangle. And I was not so much joking about the uchiha thing as rolling my eyes as I sarcastically stated the generic fanon about how important people seem to think the sharingan is to the village.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Traab

Mmmm, gay incest bishy/emo lovin. Thats like thirty layers of hawtness right there. Only way to make it better would be to include naruto in a love triangle. And I was not so much joking about the uchiha thing as rolling my eyes as I sarcastically stated the generic fanon about how important people seem to think the sharingan is to the village.

Isn't sarcasm kind of joking... or kidding... or not being serious, anyway.

Yay, but then we need a real triangle with A wants B, B wants C and C wants A to make the drama perfect! (Heck, this is so much more fun in shoujo ai manga...)

[AgentofOdd]

On a somewhat related note, wouldn't beating Kabuto and undoing his zombie magic kill Itachi? Meaning Itachi has lied to Sasuke yet again, and the latter will probably end up having additional angsty teen points added to his psyche. Not looking forward to that.

[MammonAzrael]

Originally Posted by AgentofOdd

On a somewhat related note, wouldn't beating Kabuto and undoing his zombie magic kill Itachi? Meaning Itachi has lied to Sasuke yet again, and the latter will probably end up having additional angsty teen points added to his psyche. Not looking forward to that.

Presumably. Since it's supposed to be impossible for the Edo Tensai zombies to go rogue, we can't be sure though. If Kabuto has lost control of Itachi, it's possible he can no longer end Itachi by ending Edo Tensai. However, I wouldn't put it past Itachi to neglect the detail that talking after stopping ET is gonna be difficult since that'll end him.

[AgentofOdd]

It's true we can't be certain what rules apply to Itachi now, and to be honest I'd love to have him stick around since that'll mean Itachi will have a hand in Sasuke's inevitable redemption making it a touch more believable than Naruto saving someone all my himself for the umteenth time.

Unfortunately, since our local spiky haired messiah must be the only source of salvation, it would make Itachi's continued existence in the impure world rather short.

[darksolitaire]

New chapter!

Spoiler

Kabuto turns out to be Sage! That alone probably isn't enough to beat two op Uchihas. He's also a dragon. Waah! Also, the mentioning of Shikkotsurin makes me think that Tsunade might go sage mode too. Oh, and Karin is an Uzumaki. No big surprise there.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Do we need spoilers? Never mind.

Spoiler

Kabuto spent his off-screen time wisely it seems. And now he's a necromancer snake dragon sage. And Karin is an Uzumaki. Who would have thought.