Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

New anime episode:

Spoiler

The last bit was such ham-handed foreshadowing. "As long as I have that technique, I can't be defeated". "Activate the other technique". Dammit people, can't you be a little more helpful?

? Where in the story is the anime?

[masterjoda99]

Judging by the synopsis on the wiki, it's the time where the edo-akatsuki and other resurrected backstory folks are fighting the joint army, and tobi is mulling over the game of puppet and puppetmaster he and kabuto are engaged in.

[douglas]

Not quite, the battle hasn't really started yet. The only edo zombies that have done any fighting so far are Sasori, Deidara, and Shin, and a single episode got Deidara disabled by puppet cage+lightning and the other two defeated by the power of sentimentalism.

The most recent episode ended with a pair of earth users from the joint army creating an eruption of white Zetsus to bring them above ground where everyone can see them. The primary focus of the episode was Kabuto explaining Edo Tensei to Tobi.

[Nekura]

ok just so we are all clear on this

Spoiler

Wait so idiot uchias were using izanagi against each other fighting over the outcome and which results to use. This leaves many uchia blind and useless. Then the uchia came up with the "bright" idea to come up with a new eye technique to punish the idiots but that move also blinds the one punishing them leave yet more blind uchia. Made even more stupid because if they wanted to get someone stuck in a loop they could use the first eye technique to put them in a loop as long as they had one working eye. Being able to control the illusion world for 72 hours should be enough to make a loop without wasting an eye. The only reason to use izanami is because it works on those who can't see like idiot uchias who wasted both their eyes abusing izanagi

[Giegue]

As I stated before, the Uchiha could easily have gotten around the blindness by stockpiling eyes. Heck, they would not even need to hurt their own to do that. With the constant warfare during the pre-village area their would be plenty of corpses from which they could harvest eyes, and seeing how powerful the sharingan is it's actually a pretty good for the Uchiha to harvest the eyes of their dead since it not only allows them to spam their strongest techs, but also stops enemies from getting their hands on sharigan.(which could be implanted alla Kakashi by enemies, or studied for their secrets and possible counters to sharingan techs ect...) The bigger inconstancy is not the fact that the Uchiha spammed Izanami, but rather that they even had it in the first place. As I recall, Tobi said the jutsu could only be used by one whom possesses Senju and Uchiha DNA. I find it highly unlikely that so many Uchiha stole Senju DNA and as a result that whole chapter stank of retcon.

[Nekura]

But you can only stockpile sharigan if you don't waste them. Your born with two eyes and can only get more if another uchia didn't sacrifice their eyes. You can't have all or even most uchia using techniques that destroy more than two eyes there arn't enough eyes to go around.

[VanBuren]

I didn't get the sense that they were spamming it, so much as they were showboating and taking all the high-risk suicide missions because they knew they had a "way out".

[Giegue]

That could be the case, but that dose not change the fact that the whole story smelled of retcon. Mainly the fact that the Uchiha had Izanami. I mean, unless Tobi was flat out lying to Konan about his needing Senju DNA to use the jutsu Kishi once again totally ignored his own previous writing since I can't see the entire Uchiha clan stockpiling Senju DNA. Sharingan? Sure. Senju DNA? Thats a BIG stretch and I just can't see it happening. Especially seeing as Madara himself did not get any Senju DNA until after his battle with Harishima.

[Nekura]

It flat out stated the problem wasn't one uchia having the power, which would be one uchia on a dangerous mission being forced to use it to survive. The problem was two or more uchia using it to fight over the outcome and results of battle possibly being glory hounds wanting the kill or credit for the mission for themself and not their fellow uchia teamates.

So you have at least two uchia abusing the technique using it when not strickly nessicary. This would cost a lot of eyes considering it was such a huge problem they develope an eye move to specifically punish those who do this. The new move also sacrifices eyes most likely taking an eye for each uchia being punished. That could be a minium of 6 eyes being lost each time this happened and it was happening a lot. Then when you factor in eye being sacrificed at sensible times as well uchia losing eyes just in normal fighting. ( Kakashi had his eye damaged in battle being the whole reason he got it replaced) That takes its toll on any stockpile that my or my not have existed before and certainly prevents you adding eyes to a stockpile or forming one from stratch.

The stockpile plot only worked because there were so few uchia now and a lot of dead uchia with supposidly good eyes. When you retcon in that apparently uchia were sacrificing eyes left and right for one move or another you have to wonder how many of the dead uchia eyes would be usefull for a stockpile. And yes you also have to look at the fact that before it used to take uchia and senju dna to use it. I don't remeber was it possible to do it with a normal sharigan or did it take an upgraged version? Either way I fully expect the manga to continue retconing and haxing all the sharigans faults away as well as add more and more abilities to make it the most uber bloodline of them all.

[tyckspoon]

Originally Posted by Nekura

I don't remeber was it possible to do it with a normal sharigan or did it take an upgraged version? Either way I fully expect the manga to continue retconing and haxing all the sharigans faults away as well as add more and more abilities to make it the most uber bloodline of them all.

Danzo had an armful of, IIRC, regular Sharingan he was using to power his Izanagi. And we don't know for sure if Izanagi actually destroys an eye; it might be possible to recover an eye used for Izanagi with appropriate care or just rest (which would make a lot more sense of 'the Uchiha were using this enough that we had to develop a power specifically to curb them.')

[Nekura]

Originally Posted by tyckspoon

Danzo had an armful of, IIRC, regular Sharingan he was using to power his Izanagi. And we don't know for sure if Izanagi actually destroys an eye; it might be possible to recover an eye used for Izanagi with appropriate care or just rest (which would make a lot more sense of 'the Uchiha were using this enough that we had to develop a power specifically to curb them.')

That would just fit in more with taking back the weaknesses of the sharingan.

First it's prediction abilities could be beat by being faster and more skilled in taijutsu. Then it was quickly decided he didn't like Lee being able to beat Sasuke so the sauce was able to train in a month to be just as fast as Lee although without his stamina and learn lightning manipulation along with kakashi's original move all while the cursed seal was messing with his control, yeah that’s believable...not.

Second the only way to unlock the next stage of the sharingan was to be evil and kill you best friend. Then Kakashi could unlock it by being emo and wallowing in angst, if that was the case Sasuke would have unlocked his a lot sooner then he did.

Third when using the abilities of that stage it causes you to slowing go blind. Time to pull being able to take another uchia's eyes to make them eternal out of his arse.

Forth the ultimate defense Susano which also had amazing attacks was shown to be vulnerable. Let use what was the ultimate attack and change it so the black flames which burn through anything can be easily controlled as a passive defense and not have them damage Susano.

Fifth sharigan's genjutsu has only been shown to be visual and an enemy clouded his own vision to prevent this also shown when Gai said to look at their feet to avoid eyes. Instead of having the uchia use normal genjutsu such some of the sound based ones we have seen used even in the same battle against them, give them yet another eye power that doesn't seem dependant on any of your foe's senses to work.

And Finally you said we don't know for sure if it destroys the eye. Yes, yes we do I believe such things as permanently shuts and such were used. That is the whole point of given such awesome power a heavy drawback what could be worse for an uchia then the lose of their precious eyes. If it was going to be a temporary setback they would have mentioned it like when they flat out said the brainwash eye ability had a set time it took to recharge and also implied if not stated it was only available to that one set of eyes. I am sure there are others that I missed.

Now that’s not to say its not possible and completely expected that they will change this maybe with something as easy as medical justsu I wouldn't put it past them. But keeping up with the trend more likely yet another eye ability earlier I had even suggested an already existing eye ability that could do it. This chapter implies izanagi can change things a lot more then Danzo who just temporarily made himself invulnerable which makes sense he was doing it wrong if Tobi can do that without cost.

[Madara]

Of the two brothers, the younger one got the short end of the stick,
Younger "I have amazing stamina and fighting prowess"
Older "I have the sharingan!"
Younger "So?"
Older "ICANDOANYTHING!"

Really, why do people bother going after the Tailed beasts when all you need is sharingan Hax?

[Lord Raziere]

Because like it or not, Tailed Beasts are also hax. a different hax, but still Hax.

that and the tailed beasts are Hax that aren't fragile little eyeballs. much less easy to destroy, and to actually pass down the genes necessary you need an actual uchiha for them, there is only reproductive one of those left, cause the rest cheated. and the reproductive one is an teen whose gone off the deep end and is kinda dangerous himself.

look on the bright side though: if Sasuke dies, Sharingan Hax dies with him. there will be no Sharingan Hax kiddies coming anymore, and the ninja world will move on.

Tailed beasts are pretty eternal though, very durable superweapons so people will still go after them.

[jindra34]

Originally Posted by Madara

Of the two brothers, the younger one got the short end of the stick,
Younger "I have amazing stamina and fighting prowess"
Older "I have the sharingan!"
Younger "So?"
Older "ICANDOANYTHING!"

Really, why do people bother going after the Tailed beasts when all you need is sharingan Hax?

Yet the older brother apparently thought he got the short end of the stick. So we are likely missing something, maybe when we finally cut back to Naruto we will get to see some of it.

[VanBuren]

Originally Posted by jindra34

Yet the older brother apparently thought he got the short end of the stick. So we are likely missing something, maybe when we finally cut back to Naruto we will get to see some of it.

Maybe it's because hax aren't everything in life.

[Xondoure]

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the Senju have a pretty effective way to block the ultimate sharingan techniques.

[Drolyt]

Originally Posted by Xondoure

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the Senju have a pretty effective way to block the ultimate sharingan techniques.

Considering Madara lost to the first hokage, I don't think this is exactly going out on a limb.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by VanBuren

Maybe it's because hax aren't everything in life.

Then clearly you're not using sufficient hax.

Originally Posted by Lord Raziere

Because like it or not, Tailed Beasts are also hax. a different hax, but still Hax.

that and the tailed beasts are Hax that aren't fragile little eyeballs. much less easy to destroy, and to actually pass down the genes necessary you need an actual uchiha for them, there is only reproductive one of those left, cause the rest cheated. and the reproductive one is an teen whose gone off the deep end and is kinda dangerous himself.

look on the bright side though: if Sasuke dies, Sharingan Hax dies with him. there will be no Sharingan Hax kiddies coming anymore, and the ninja world will move on.

Tailed beasts are pretty eternal though, very durable superweapons so people will still go after them.

Eh, Orochimaru was able to clone the Wood Style back from the dead. I'm pretty sure that someone equally determined could bring the Sharingan back if they really wanted to.

[Lord Raziere]

then clearly we must burn all Uchihas. destroy all of their corpses. We must make absolutely sure that they cannot be cloned.

[jindra34]

New chapter

Spoiler

And dammit Madara we don't need more HAX from the sharingan. Though given the short timer he is now on he may end up not doing anything.

[Cen]

New chapter:

Spoiler

haha this is getting ridicullous - another sharingan hax asspull

edit: damn these ninjas...

[Traab]

Oh for the love of... whats this latest asspull? Is he able to make everything within a 75 foot radius explode automatically? Is he able to use edo tensei with his EYES?! Has he actually BECOME Susanoo? Or merged with his amaterasu so he is a living body of black fire? Has he used his eyes to travel back in time and geld the yondaime as an infant so he could never give birth to naruto? Has he managed to turn the entire group of his forces into rinnegan bodies that he can control all at once?

[Madara]

New Chapter:

Spoiler

Despite Sharingan Hax, I'm fine with Madara not being taken down by the kages. If he had been taken down already, then it wouldn't be legendary status. I think the manga finally reached the point where we know why that reputation would be worth stealing(tobi)

I'm sorry, but the Susanoo looked really stupid walking around.

[Giegue]

Spoiler

Ehh. The mini Sussano's looked lame. The perfect one at the end looked pretty cool, though. However, Madara unleashing his perfect Sussano' also means that his time is basically up. I foresee the fight becoming even more hopeless then it already is, with a possible Oonoki death, and then Itachi ending Edo Tensei, saving the Kage's behinds at the last minute. Once we see the full extent of his powers(which his full Sussano will be the last of) he'll be disinigrated by edo tensei ending since he has nothing left to show us that can't be answered by Tobi. His connection to Tobi and the moon's eye plan, what happened in the past, his relationship to Nagato and basically all the mysteries surrounding Madara can be answered by Tobi, so Madara dying with Edo Tensei's end now seems even more likely.

[Nekura]

new chapter

Spoiler

Yeah susanoo looked so stupid walking around I had go back some chapters to figure out what they were supposed to be. They look nothing like susano and susanoo never had legs before. And Trabb it seems he already became susanoo or at least his clones did. Madara sumoned wood 5 wood clones for each kage and asked if they should use susanoo. Well now we have plenty of those things running around that I guess are supposed to be susanoo but no sign of the clones.

[Fjolnir]

As long as these are the true upward limits of eyehaxx I won't have an issue with it.

[Xondoure]

Originally Posted by Fjolnir

As long as these are the true upward limits of eyehaxx I won't have an issue with it.

Please, we haven't reached the final fight with Sasuke.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Xondoure

Please, we haven't reached the final fight with Sasuke.

Agreed, until the last uchiha is gone and beyond any method of resummoning, there will never be an end to new uchiha hax. Im holding out hope that sasuke will pull the living amaterasu form ultimate hax. He seemed to have quite a bit of control over the stuff, so it makes sense. He literally becomes black fire, meaning he burns through anything that touches him. Will 9 tails/uzumaki chakra be dense enough to allow a full out brawl? Tune in next year to find out!

[Madara]

Yeah...I don't think Sasuke will top Madara. Madara required 5 kage in order to kinda be almost maybe beaten. Any stronger than Madara and we're reaching Sage of the Six Paths level.

Besides, any Ameratsu stuff he does comes from Blaze release(An entire release that comes from only sharingans)...

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Madara

Yeah...I don't think Sasuke will top Madara. Madara required 5 kage in order to kinda be almost maybe beaten. Any stronger than Madara and we're reaching Sage of the Six Paths level.

Besides, any Ameratsu stuff he does comes from Blaze release(An entire release that comes from only sharingans)...

And yet even back during the kage summit, sasuke put up a fairly decent fight. He managed to burn off one of the raikages arms at least. (and yes I know that its because the raikage took the burn so he could land a hit) Either way, its fairly safe to assume he is stronger now. After all, we cant have naruto learn all sorts of new things and get power ups like he has without giving sasuke even more. Its just the law of the narutoverse. Sasukes theme song should be "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better!"