Older D&D/AD&D and Other SystemsThe forum for discussions specifically related to the rules and procedures of either any of the older editions of Dungeons & Dragons (1e, 2e, BECMI, OD&D) or any other non-D&D roleplaying rules (Vampire: The Requiem, Dread), including non-fantasy d20 systems (such as Mutants & Masterminds).
I ship you/Anyone./Infernal Gardevoir from outside the playground, by Recaiden//ExtendedSig
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
No comments on the Martial Arts Style?
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
Only that we already have enough animal styles. I'm glad to see a grappling style, didn't notice anything ridiculously unbalanced, I'd suggest changing it to Iron Grip Assassin style or something and give it nicer fluff.
__________________
My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkishproverb
I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
Only that we already have enough animal styles. I'm glad to see a grappling style, didn't notice anything ridiculously unbalanced, I'd suggest changing it to Iron Grip Assassin style or something and give it nicer fluff.
Yeah, defintely needs the fluff, but I got most of the mechanics down pretty easily.
As for changing the focus(and too many animal styles), well, at least one of the charms doesn't make sense if removed from the animal context(Engulfing Maw).
Plus, most of the animal styles aren't exactly good to use.
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Having read more closely... Predator Prey Reversal doesn't have any effects, Engulfing Maw is potentially too powerful when combined with other charms, Constricting Coils is too powerful as a stackable effect without a maximum, Shedding the Useless Skin needs to have an actual flaw if it's to be allowed at all, and Still Serpent Approach needs to be easier to beat (it's better than some celestial stealth IIRC).
Also, I stand by my statement. Engulfing Maw could be kept as "Death in the Shadows" where the character moves the victim into a pocket of elsewhere where they face a silent end unable to call for help or warn their allies.
__________________
My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkishproverb
I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavar
No comments on the Martial Arts Style?
Okays...
[opinion]
Spoiler
Cost for extra tricks on Constricting Coils seems steep? Isn't it normally about 1BP for a couple?
The Form-type should make the success-ifying optional, cause dice from charms could be a nerf.
Predator-Prey Reversal seems it should be more expensive. It's basically a clinch-PD.
...and the PD should be more expensive. Way more expensive. CMA rarely get PDs, arguably SHOULDN'T, and certainly shouldn't have ones cheaper than normal ones.
I ship you/Anyone./Infernal Gardevoir from outside the playground, by Recaiden//ExtendedSig
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
Having read more closely... Predator Prey Reversal doesn't have any effects,
Yeah, sorry. Not everything was finished. The thread has a more complete version. This is the rules text for the charm:
This charm can be activated when the Martial Artist is clinched, or upon losing control of a clinch. Sliding out of the opponent's Grasp, the martial artist imposes another contested Clinch roll, with extra dice equal to the number of Damage levels inflicted, if any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
Engulfing Maw is potentially too powerful when combined with other charms,
Examples?
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
Constricting Coils is too powerful as a stackable effect without a maximum,
Note that it can only be used once per tick on a target. Mote cost might need to be bumped. In fact, pretty much all the mote costs are tentative: always difficult for me to judge what's too expensive/just right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
Shedding the Useless Skin needs to have an actual flaw if it's to be allowed at all,
It does have a flaw: note it's activation condition. Plus, it effectively costs at least one health level per use. Putting it on the level of Bottomless Depths Defense, except with a duration of instant. The mote cost is equivalent as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
and Still Serpent Approach needs to be easier to beat (it's better than some celestial stealth IIRC).
True. Wasn't quite sure how to make that charm, and was hoping for feedback. How about....
This charm supplements a check to hide in battle. The Martial Artist is considered to qualify for the action, no matter the terrain, and gains [Essence] dice on the roll.
As long as the Martial Artist does not move or interact with anyone in a visible manner, they cannot be detected as a threat. Even if touched, they are simply viewed as a rock, part of the scenery. The effect ends immediately if they take any action besides waiting. If the Martial Artist attacks on the tick he ends this charm, he gains a [essence] dice on the roll.
Those who see through this effect are subject to an unnatural mental influence that compels them not to reveal the subject, though they can attack him. This costs 3wp to resist, but no matter if they spend the willpower or not they charm does not grant extra dice against them.
If Engulfing Maw may remain active while using this charm, but the Martial Artist takes an External penalty of the victim's essence on rolls, and if Engulfing Maw is broken, this charm ends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
Also, I stand by my statement. Engulfing Maw could be kept as "Death in the Shadows" where the character moves the victim into a pocket of elsewhere where they face a silent end unable to call for help or warn their allies.
I stand by the fact that 2 styles isn't too many. Plus the alternative doesn't seem a hundredth as evocative.
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavar
It does have a flaw: note it's activation condition. Plus, it effectively costs at least one health level per use. Putting it on the level of Bottomless Depths Defense, except with a duration of instant. The mote cost is equivalent as well.
Umm, as of the errata, Bottomless Depths Defense's duration is Instant.
__________________
Daybreak Caste Abyssal by Gnomish Wanderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden, on Exalted Week
It's like Shark Week only with way more sharp-toothed unreasoning predators
Last edited by TheCountAlucard : 05-04-2012 at 09:33 PM.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavar
Yeah, sorry. Not everything was finished. The thread has a more complete version. This is the rules text for the charm:
This charm can be activated when the Martial Artist is clinched, or upon losing control of a clinch. Sliding out of the opponent's Grasp, the martial artist imposes another contested Clinch roll, with extra dice equal to the number of Damage levels inflicted, if any.
So, the charm takes effect after the resolution of the other character's action? That seems okay.
Quote:
Examples?
Constricting Coils and the Form charm are the ones I'm worried about. The trouble as I see it is that (if I'm not misreading) Engulfing Maw is a charm that allows the character to inflict lethal damage and/or bad touches without reprisal. The character swallows the enemy, and then if the enemy is in a position to turn the tables on the clinch it doesn't matter because the clinch ends before they can damage the character. Which brings up the bad touch.
Quote:
Note that it can only be used once per tick on a target. Mote cost might need to be bumped. In fact, pretty much all the mote costs are tentative: always difficult for me to judge what's too expensive/just right.
The trouble is that it's a bad touch that can render a foe incapable of movement, inflicting damage, soak, and (if Water Dragon style is an indication of what happens at 0 stamina) possibly capable of outright killing a foe in a couple of attacks.
Quote:
It does have a flaw: note it's activation condition. Plus, it effectively costs at least one health level per use. Putting it on the level of Bottomless Depths Defense, except with a duration of instant. The mote cost is equivalent as well.
I'm still not sure that's good enough.
Quote:
True. Wasn't quite sure how to make that charm, and was hoping for feedback. How about....
This charm supplements a check to hide in battle. The Martial Artist is considered to qualify for the action, no matter the terrain, and gains [Essence] dice on the roll.
As long as the Martial Artist does not move or interact with anyone in a visible manner, they cannot be detected as a threat. Even if touched, they are simply viewed as a rock, part of the scenery. The effect ends immediately if they take any action besides waiting. If the Martial Artist attacks on the tick he ends this charm, he gains a [essence] dice on the roll.
Those who see through this effect are subject to an unnatural mental influence that compels them not to reveal the subject, though they can attack him. This costs 3wp to resist, but no matter if they spend the willpower or not they charm does not grant extra dice against them.
If Engulfing Maw may remain active while using this charm, but the Martial Artist takes an External penalty of the victim's essence on rolls, and if Engulfing Maw is broken, this charm ends.
Better.
Quote:
I stand by the fact that 2 styles isn't too many. Plus the alternative doesn't seem a hundredth as evocative.
It's more than two styles. Animal martial arts in Canon alone count among their number: Centipede Style, Cobra Style (since removed), Crane Style, Mantis Style, Snake Style, and Tiger Style and (debatably) Celestial Monkey Style and Crystal Chameleon Style.
__________________
My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkishproverb
I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
Constricting Coils and the Form charm are the ones I'm worried about. The trouble as I see it is that (if I'm not misreading) Engulfing Maw is a charm that allows the character to inflict lethal damage and/or bad touches without reprisal. The character swallows the enemy, and then if the enemy is in a position to turn the tables on the clinch it doesn't matter because the clinch ends before they can damage the character. Which brings up the bad touch.
Ah, well, first off, regarding the damage, any ability that makes your unarmed attacks deal lethal damage would do the same thing. As would wearing a Razor Harness.
The Bad Touch stuff...not seeing how it's different than a normal clinch.
Regarding having to reprisal, I see where you're getting that, and that is not the intention. If the Target wins the Clinch, they are regurgitated, and then they are considered in control of the clinch. So, at that point, they can clinch their opponent. I'll make that explicit in the charm when I edit it next.
Maybe also give them some bonus against the martial artist. First attack ignores Soak from armor, perhaps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
The trouble is that it's a bad touch that can render a foe incapable of movement, inflicting damage, soak, and (if Water Dragon style is an indication of what happens at 0 stamina) possibly capable of outright killing a foe in a couple of attacks.
It's not meant to be a bad touch: You have to be clinching them, which means overcoming their DV(thus, not being a bad touch by definition). Afterwords, in the clinch, you have to be trying to deal damage to the person.
Perhaps if I rendered it incapable of reducing the victim past [Attribute] 1?
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
I'm still not sure that's good enough.
Actually, just checked the errata, and I realize my mistake. I was working off the idea that the wiki had been updated(because so many of the entries have), but BDD page hasn't, and still lists it as lasting a tick, and only costing 5m, 1ahl. I'll bump the charms cost up to 7m, but I still feel that only being able to reliably activate the charm 4 times in a scene, and each activation costing at least 1 health level is a pretty big flaw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
Better.
Thanks, and you were totally right. The old version was insanely good: better than the solar charm I was trying to base it off. Not on purpose, but it was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
It's more than two styles. Animal martial arts in Canon alone count among their number: Centipede Style, Cobra Style (since removed), Crane Style, Mantis Style, Snake Style, and Tiger Style and (debatably) Celestial Monkey Style and Crystal Chameleon Style.
Tiger, Mantis, and Monkey are from Scroll of the Monk, which doesn't fill one with confidence about their suitability for play. Cobra's been removed, so it doesn't really count at the moment. Centipede isn't found in any of the normal books from what I can tell. I'll give you Crane, Snake, and Crystal Chameleon, though.
And, again, that's honestly 8/35 styles. Not exactly an overwhelming number.
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavar
I'll bump the charms cost up to 7m, but I still feel that only being able to reliably activate the charm 4 times in a scene, and each activation costing at least 1 health level is a pretty big flaw.
...but you can use it any number of times in a scene. The first attack knocks you down to having no remaining -0s, and stops any that would go into -1.
Then next attack... you'd go into -1. So you can activate it.
If an attack isn't possible to defend against with this charm, it's not worth defending against with this charm.
I ship you/Anyone./Infernal Gardevoir from outside the playground, by Recaiden//ExtendedSig
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lix Lorn
...but you can use it any number of times in a scene. The first attack knocks you down to having no remaining -0s, and stops any that would go into -1.
Then next attack... you'd go into -1. So you can activate it.
If an attack isn't possible to defend against with this charm, it's not worth defending against with this charm.
....
That's not how it works/how it's supposed to work. It's like Dread Gear Fortification from the Viator. I'll clean up the language, I guess.
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
I ship you/Anyone./Infernal Gardevoir from outside the playground, by Recaiden//ExtendedSig
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
I don't think you know what Bad Touch means, Tavar. Bad touch effects are non-damage effects which can ruin an opponent's day. Constricting coils can reduce an opponent to a quivering pile of goo basically incapable of physical action. That is pretty much the definition of Bad-Touch (usually indicated by the Shaping, Crippling, Sickness or Poison keywords: Note the Crippling keyword on your charm).
If engulfing maw allows reprisal attacks, I'm okay with it. My concern was that once you had someone with it their only options were escape or death, removing them as a threat until then. My concerns about your Crippling effect remain. Minimum Attribute 1 would be an improvement, yes.
__________________
My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkishproverb
I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by golentan
If engulfing maw allows reprisal attacks, I'm okay with it. My concern was that once you had someone with it their only options were escape or death, removing them as a threat until then. My concerns about your Crippling effect remain. Minimum Attribute 1 would be an improvement, yes.
So, basically, your problem is with the current Clinch rules. Not sure why you would be happy about a clinch focused Martial Art.
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tavar
So, basically, your problem is with the current Clinch rules. Not sure why you would be happy about a clinch focused Martial Art.
No, because someone can take control of a clinch and turn the tables. When an opposed roll comes up, the previous victim can take control and say "Now YOU are the one taking the damage!" I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with "On winning the clinch roll, the clinch ends without harm to the agressor."
__________________
My motto: Repensum Est Canicula.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkishproverb
I am not getting into a shootout with Golentan. Too many gun-arms.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard
I'm not happy about a clinch-focused Martial Arts style, which is why I've been trying to refrain from comment at the moment.
At present, the rules for clinching are one of the things that still needs a big revision.
And yet, no one's commented on the Clinch rule revision I posted, either here or really on the White Wolf Boards.
For those unhappy with the rules, not much seems to be put towards fixing them.
@golentan: Okay, generally I consider Bad Touch things that don't really provide an adequate defense.
Also, keep in mind that you can only do one of these per target per 6 ticks. That's quite a while to really incapacitate someone. True, someone who's Stamina 1 would go down really damn fast, but I'd think that'd be the case even if they were just doing damage normally.
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
I ship you/Anyone./Infernal Gardevoir from outside the playground, by Recaiden//ExtendedSig
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
I ship you/Anyone./Infernal Gardevoir from outside the playground, by Recaiden//ExtendedSig
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
I posted this on the Exalted boards in a thread about the limitations of Lunar excellencies, shapeshifting, trueforms, and whatnot.
About three posts later, the thread blew up between other people being asshats. I'm fairly certain my post was never even read.
So Playgrounders, what do you think?
Lunars are defined by their relationships. How they interact with the world around them, and the world defines them as well.
A Lunar using an Excellency may normally add no more than his Attribute in dice to a roll. However, if his action defends one of his intimacies he may add Attribute+(Lower of Essence or closest resonating virtue) as an Obvious effect.
In defense of their motivation, it becomes Attribute+ the higher of the above.
The Solar Mate is a glaring exception. Defending their Solar Mate is akin to defending their motivation and the Lunar may add Attribute+(Higher of Essence or closest resonating virtue)+ any dots in Solar Bond.
The Wyld Infection
Spoiler
As their intimacies and motivation are their strength, they are also the Lunar's weakness as well.
Destruction of the object of a Lunar's positive intimacy, be it a person, an ideal, or a place, when the Lunar could have conceivably prevented it inflicts a number of dice of Wyld infection equal to the virtue that most closely resonates with the intimacy. Due to the Great Curse, if the virtue tied to their Limit Break condition is higher, they instead gain a number of dice equal to that virtue instead.
The shattering of a motivation is a more horrendous thing, and inflicts dice equal to their Essence + resonating Virtue, with the same exception for the Great Curse.
The loss of a Solar Mate when the Lunar should have protected them is the same as the shattering of a Motivation, plus additional dice equal to their Solar Bond rating.
Infection Dice can only be removed with the replacing of the lost and destroyed intimacies, and as such Lunars find it very easy to create new Intimacies, and consider their Conviction one less for the required number of scenes to build a new positive Intimacy so long as they have more than one Wyld Infection dice in their pool.
Gaining a new intimacy reduces the number of dice in their pool by the rating of the virtue that the intimacy resonates with. The condition of the pull of Wyld energy is something wholly a part of the Lunar Exaltation, and the pool may never go below one die. Luna is the force of change in Creation, after all.
Since the Lunar Exaltation is gained through survival, many a times does the Lunar Exalt even as he loses those around him.
So what about Shapeshifting?
Spoiler
Wyld Infection dice are rolled for every shapeshift. Wyld Infection dice are not gained for each shapeshift, even for the casteless.
Additionally, for those without moonsilver tattoos, shapeshifting is an altogether different experience. An untattooed Lunar finds he has no spirit shape, but also has very few limitations on his choice of shape. The hunt for Heart's Blood is unnecessary as they may take whatever form they choose. In game terms, the Lunar is considered to automatically have the following Knacks, so long as they meet the requirements: Humble Mouse, Emerald Grasshopper, Towering Beast, Prey's Skin Disguise.
With no spirit shape, the untattooed find they are never form locked when spending motes of Essence. However, they find that the forms they take are solely bound by the strengths of themselves.
Without considering any other charms, the Lunar finds himself limited to the lesser of the forms Attributes or his own. As the Lunar explores his own gifts from Luna, he finds he grows in power in the forms he takes. For every Charm of an Attribute, the Lunar's shapeshifted forms gain a possible dot as well.
IE: Sleeping Tiger is an untattooed Lunar Exalt with Str 5, Dex 5, and Sta 4. He has three Str Charms, two Dex, and five Sta Charms. Deciding to take the form of a Siaka (12/4/8), Sleeping Tiger finds he has 8/5/8 for physical stats. He may spend motes on his Excellencies up to his normal, unmodifed human stats.
Note that Sleeping Tiger has his Strength + the number of Str charms (5+3 str charms, not as strong as the Siaka), Dex 5 (4+1 dex charm, hitting his own personal Dex), and 8 Stamina (4+4 Sta charms, hitting the Siaka's stamina)
An untattooed Lunar with Deadly Beastman Transformation may choose any form to mix with to create the DBT form.
So what's the point of Form-Fixing Rituals?
Spoiler
The Form-Fixing ritual abates the Wyld Infection dice to it's lowest point, 1 die, though the dice never vanish and still build as Intimacies are lost and gained. As one die can never roll higher than an Exalt's starting Essence, the Lunars consider the issue of Wyld Infection resolved. However, the Form-Fixing ritual fixes more than just their caste and Wyld Infection.
The Ritual locks them into a spirit shape, and locks the number of animal forms they may take. Any form they have not previously taken are locked away as well, requiring the ritual of the hunt to experience the form.
Even a tattooed Lunar retains the Knacks listed under Shapeshifting above, though they are fully bound by the rules of Shapeshifting as given in MoEP: Lunars, having lost the fluidity of Luna's gifts.
Meta-Info
Spoiler
The Lunar Exalted do not know the cause of the Wyld mutations, only assume that it was caused by their retreat to the Wyld. They do not know that they only prolong their issues with the Form-Fixing tattoos, and truly at this point, some Exaltations bear the burden of so much loss of intimacies that the Ritual is their only hope of truly functioning and possibly fixing the issue.
__________________
Most excellent Rising Echo avatar created by GryffonDurime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardea
That is the scariest two lines I have read in a forum of any kind.
Take two internets, a cookie and a vorpal sword, please.
Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, drunkeness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.
RSS Feeds: 
Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle
by Recaiden//
