General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Rockbird]

I posted about this a while ago, and now I will do so again.

I am doing a bit of Exalted comicking in my spare time, up to 4 pages at this time. I'd love to hear any comments or thoughts

LINKY

[Arrghus]

Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol

Only Raksha show up probably because authorsSamsara say so. Or perhaps Luna does her job and Lolnoes other things from creeping in ? It is written that Daystar snacks on Wyld inhabitants on daily basis.

Only Raksha show up because the authors haven't yet done anything cooler. I think the matter is less a lolno on non-Raksha Wyld inhabitants, and more a lack of inspiration/time.

Do You understand that this contradicts itself ?
IF Wyld isn't absolute infinity it can't be infinite possibility. This is similar subtle difference between Primordials and Yozis. First ones are unimaginable Titans that rose off the Wyld. By their own indomitable will. Second ones are hollow shells crippled by Solars to fit human understanding and become conquered monsters.

I think the difference implied here is one between a world where anything can happen, and one where everything already is happening (FYI, I subscribe to the former).

And I think you're seriously overestimating how much the Yozis have been crippled. They're tied up, sure, but the bigger part of their (in our eyes) limitations are simply their own natures.

[Gensh]

Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol

Why only Raksha ? Because Raksha live on the border between Creation and Pure Chaos where Unshaped form. Deep Wyld, Middlemarches and Bordermarches are all what was Creation but was torn-off from the Loom of Fate in greater and smaller degree.

Only Raksha show up probably because authorsSamsara say so. Or perhaps Luna does her job and Lolnoes other things from creeping in ? It is written that Daystar snacks on Wyld inhabitants on daily basis.

The bit about there being a wide border is inaccurate; the three segments are part one and part the other, but for the purposes of the raksha, it is all Creation, and they must lessen themselves by taking on an assumption to enter. Whether shaped of unshaped, they are still raksha, at least until they learn martial arts. While you're correct in blaming the early architects of the edition for there being no life in the Wyld beyond raksha (and even the hannya are raksha), that does not negate that the sources on the Primordials only ever mention their enemies as being raksha and that First Age explorers never encountered anything but raksha.

Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol

Do You understand that this contradicts itself ?
IF Wyld isn't absolute infinity it can't be infinite possibility. This is similar subtle difference between Primordials and Yozis. First ones are unimaginable Titans that rose off the Wyld. By their own indomitable will. Second ones are hollow shells crippled by Solars to fit human understanding and become conquered monsters.

Is that not the reasoning you used to defend the Wyld being an infinity beyond, say, the Endless Desert? And Turalsj is correct. You see, infinite possibility is a thing that can exist; however, it is downright impossible for all such possibilities to manifest at once. It is like Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai: it's possible to have every printed mutation, but since some of them are mutually exclusive, you cannot manifest them all at once, even with Essence Infinity because you cannot be large than a house and smaller than a mouse at the same time.

Instead, consider the Wyld as a quantum object; it can be anything but only is anything once someone has observed it. In the Beginning, the Primordials fought the raksha; then Sol fought the raksha because the Primordials told him to; then the Exalted fought the raksha because Sol told them there were raksha to fight. Raksha take the form of legends because Primordials are living mythos; their shape is undefined because in the Primordials (especially Oramus), all things might come to be. Yet the Wyld is the underdog of the Exalted universe because its possibilities are unmanifest - it is infinite in all dimensions but less so in any one dimension. It is only at the Well of Udr, where the Wyld pools above Oblivion and infinitely collapses into alternate configurations that its infinity is truly seen.
...
Now I want to play a character whose Motivation is to draw an infinite number of Empyreal Chaos-es out of the Well, just to see what happens.

Originally Posted by Rockbird

I posted about this a while ago, and now I will do so again.

I am doing a bit of Exalted comicking in my spare time, up to 4 pages at this time. I'd love to hear any comments or thoughts

LINKY

I like it so far, but the necks are a bit long and were a bit distracting to me. Not sure if it's just because I had to do a bunch of art study or if it's noticeable for everyone.

[Rockbird]

Originally Posted by Gensh

I like it so far, but the necks are a bit long and were a bit distracting to me. Not sure if it's just because I had to do a bunch of art study or if it's noticeable for everyone.

No, you're quite right. That's a thing i do; I should really get to rectifying it :P.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Originally Posted by Gensh

Is that not the reasoning you used to defend the Wyld being an infinity beyond, say, the Endless Desert ?

Cecelyne thinks that she's infinite, but would You agree with me that it is merely incalculably big ? She have definite borders, as imaginative as they seem to be, and thus can't be truly infinite.

Originally Posted by Gensh

And Turalsj is correct. You see, infinite possibility is a thing that can exist; however, it is downright impossible for all such possibilities to manifest at once. It is like Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai: it's possible to have every printed mutation, but since some of them are mutually exclusive, you cannot manifest them all at once, even with Essence Infinity because you cannot be large than a house and smaller than a mouse at the same time.

And there we disagree, since things like logic and sequence of events are part of Creation, too. Such things would be impossible in Creation, while Wyld doesn't follow such logic. Wyld follows, if at all, narrative where it touches Creation. Thus if some narrative involves all the impossibilities You mentioned it is plausible in the Wyld to happen. And simultaneously to not happen at all.

What You imply is that Wyld is a static thing, and that is rather strange trait for Wyld as we know it, right ? And that canon gives evidences of "safe" usages of the Wyld in the form of Elemental Poles, Daystar, Moon and Exalted various abuses of it ... it doesn't mean that automatically everything in the Wyld is as it's "close" to Creation. By it's very existence Creation causes disturbance in the Wyld. Sometime I fancy naming Raksha incursions into Creation a immune system reaction.

As far as I know Well of Urd reaches Beyond, and that's all I can say about it. Fact that Creation-born can see something inside doesn't mean that these things didn't exist without Creation-born observation.

[golentan]

Why can't cecelyne be infinitely big? Having borders doesn't mean anything when it comes to primordials, Autochthon has defined borders small enough to fit in a single room and yet he's big enough to literally lose creation in. Malfeas has infinite layers IIRC, and while cecelyne borders malfeas she borders every layer of malfeas.

You're thinking in terms of euclidean or near euclidean geometry. You should stop doing that. Cecelyne is uncountably large, and truly infinite. Because, well, I'll let someone else explain. She also only takes 5 days to cross, no matter where you're crossing from and to.

And that's just how it is.

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by golentan

Question. Could I convince someone to run a terrestrial game? I've got an idea floating for a dragon of a different color that I'd like to try.

Hmm. What kind of game do you want to play? Game concentrated on Dragon-blooded politics or more action oriented "Anathema of the week"?

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Madwand

Hmm. What kind of game do you want to play? Game concentrated on Dragon-blooded politics or more action oriented "Anathema of the week"?

Dragon blooded politics moving strongly towards action as the realm spirals toward civil war. Basically, politics should never go away, violence should always be present, and the threat of both growing.

[horngeek]

Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol

Cecelyne thinks that she's infinite, but would You agree with me that it is merely incalculably big ? She have definite borders, as imaginative as they seem to be, and thus can't be truly infinite.

Look up fractals sometime. Definitive border, but that border is infinite. It's not that strange to think that Cecelyne might have something similar applying to her area.

Besides, she has two definite borders- Creation (which isn't, actually- they never say where in the Endless Desert you arrive) and Malfeas, which she surrounds. It's entirely possible for her to extend infinitely in other directions.

Incidentally: that recruitment I linked to last page? We've got plenty of players, now we just need someone willing to ST the game.

[AmberVael]

Originally Posted by Rikandur Azebol

Cecelyne thinks that she's infinite, but would You agree with me that it is merely incalculably big ? She have definite borders, as imaginative as they seem to be, and thus can't be truly infinite.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Are you familiar with a Ray, in the geometrical sense?
A ray is a line. It has no width, and only extends in one direction, with a definite starting point. However, it nonetheless extends infinitely out into the other direction.

Infinite is not something in and of itself. Infinite it is an adjective, a modifier of other traits. I can have an infinite number of apples, but that does not mean any of them are ever an orange. I can have an infinitely large apple, but it is still a single apple.

Infinite is not the same as "all encompassing." You can have infinite possibilities without having all possibilities. You can have infinite area with only a single aspect of a shape that is infinite.

Through understanding this, one can comprehend how Cecelyne can easily be of a finite width, and yet be infinite. She can have borders, while possessing infinite sands within herself. You can also grasp how the Wyld can be a crucible of infinite possibility, while not possessing any possibility that is the end of all possibilities.
For example, you can have infinite possibilities for reality just by altering how many four leaf clovers exist. Start at 1, and continue into infinity. Now you have infinite possibilities, but they all have the same parameters, except for the number of four leaf clovers they contain.

The Wyld as I see it cannot contain the possibility of no possibilities- it is antithetical to its nature. Like so many creation stories before it, the beginning of Exalted displays the Wyld as the primordial chaos, the crucible of life and the wellspring of creativity. The presence of such an engine of life might inspire the concept of no possibilities, might bring about the concept of complete end and void, but it is not of or from the Wyld, rather a concept created beside it, and a concept that cannot be realized while the Wyld yet exists.

[vegetalss4]

Originally Posted by Rockbird

I posted about this a while ago, and now I will do so again.

I am doing a bit of Exalted comicking in my spare time, up to 4 pages at this time. I'd love to hear any comments or thoughts

LINKY

Hurrah!
I had been trying to find that again, but the forum had been defying me.

[Rockbird]

Originally Posted by vegetalss4

Hurrah!
I had been trying to find that again, but the forum had been defying me.

Yay! And also, I have gone back and decapitated half the characters. (Or at least reduced the overly long necks :P)

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by golentan

Dragon blooded politics moving strongly towards action as the realm spirals toward civil war. Basically, politics should never go away, violence should always be present, and the threat of both growing.

And who you would like to side with? Since you want to play a dragon of diffrent color, who "almost every House leader considers a secret weapon" I imagine a game of more "secret agents" than open politics, am I right?

[golentan]

Originally Posted by Madwand

And who you would like to side with? Since you want to play a dragon of diffrent color, who "almost every House leader considers a secret weapon" I imagine a game of more "secret agents" than open politics, am I right?

I'd definitely be throwing my hat in the ring on behalf of Mnemon, though I'm thinking I might use house Ledaal as my power base (they've got the Rings subfaction using necromancy, and lots of interest in the deathlords after all). I'd imagine that each player would have their own methods, but I was thinking I'd be acting mainly as a behind the scenes kind of character, yes (and, scuttling biobombs, spying from the underworld, and collecting the ghosts of the defeated for information in 3... 2... 1...)

[SiderealDreams]

Originally Posted by Gensh

Nah. There are some constants, like Malfeas, Isidoros, and Qaf always being male.



This is actually canon. Each Primordial self-identifies as one gender in particular, regardless of how their jouten are equipped.

This. While Primordials could have multiple jouten that vary in gender. Primordials have a consistent gender for any given version of themselves. It can change with fetich death but beyond that it's consistent.

Also there are the Primordials that didn't participate in the forming of Creation and the ones that left after Creation was formed.

[golentan]

Question: How often do you guys place dragonbloods in arranged marriages? I ask primarily about PCs.

[horngeek]

Well, the only Dragonblooded game I've ever played, my Cynis was in an arranged marriage with another PC. They actually did love each other, though, so...

[Sith_Happens]

Originally Posted by Vael

[Stuff]

...Wow. Because of this post, the Internet as a whole is a slightly smarter place.

Have a cookie:

Spoiler

[Drascin]

Originally Posted by horngeek

Well, the only Dragonblooded game I've ever played, my Cynis was in an arranged marriage with another PC. They actually did love each other, though, so...

I seem to remember that game .

[ShadowFighter15]

Quick question - does the Multiple Arms mutation lessen penalties on flurries involving said limbs? Say someone made an Asura expy and wanted to give three right hooks as part of a flurry, normally he'd be losing three dice on the first punch from the flurry penalties, but would the mutation lessen those penalties?

Got my players fighting a Water Aspect Akuma who knows Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai and part of his mutations was two extra pairs of arms (I'm avoiding too much Asura-ness by making him totally psychotic and laughing about it, glad to get the chance to finally go all-out. Not overly Malfeas, I admit, but if he was just charging them while screaming in rage I might as well have just posted a pic of Asura instead of a full description of the new form) - just wanting to double-check this before his next turn in combat (thank god for the slow-pace of PbP).

[vegetalss4]

Originally Posted by ShadowFighter15

Quick question - does the Multiple Arms mutation lessen penalties on flurries involving said limbs? Say someone made an Asura expy and wanted to give three right hooks as part of a flurry, normally he'd be losing three dice on the first punch from the flurry penalties, but would the mutation lessen those penalties?

Indeed it do, by one point for each instance of the mutation to be precise.

[ShadowFighter15]

Originally Posted by vegetalss4

Indeed it do, by one point for each instance of the mutation to be precise.

Awesome, just wanted to double-check (that bit of the mutations effects could've been a bit better-described in the write-up... either that or I should stop trying to read RPG rules after ten-thirty and night).

[The Demented One]

Originally Posted by SiderealDreams

This. While Primordials could have multiple jouten that vary in gender. Primordials have a consistent gender for any given version of themselves. It can change with fetich death but beyond that it's consistent.

Also there are the Primordials that didn't participate in the forming of Creation and the ones that left after Creation was formed.

Not necessarily a hard rule. While all of the currently known Primordials have a single defined gender, it's entirely possible for a titan to have multiple genders, no gender, or a gender that doesn't conform to the male-female binary.

[golentan]

So, what are the limits of the spell Summon Ghost? I assume Ghosts, Hungry Ghosts, etc. are all options. Are nemissaries? Are Nephwracks?

[Qaera]

Originally Posted by The Demented One

Not necessarily a hard rule. While all of the currently known Primordials have a single defined gender, it's entirely possible for a titan to have multiple genders, no gender, or a gender that doesn't conform to the male-female binary.

I think I love you... GENDERQUEER PRIMORDIAL AHOY

~ ♅

[AmberVael]

Originally Posted by Sith_Happens

...Wow. Because of this post, the Internet as a whole is a slightly smarter place.

Have a cookie:

Heh, thanks.

Originally Posted by Qaera

I think I love you... GENDERQUEER PRIMORDIAL AHOY

~ ♅

I'm now picturing a gathering of a primordial's souls, arguing over what pronoun they should use.

In attempting to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution, they end up with some absurdly labyrinthine policy that has them rotating wardrobes, pronouns, and gender identity every day.

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by golentan

So, what are the limits of the spell Summon Ghost? I assume Ghosts, Hungry Ghosts, etc. are all options. Are nemissaries? Are Nephwracks?

Are Deathlords?

Nothing currently seems to exempt them from it, after all.

[horngeek]

I'd almost say 'limitations of the Summon Ghost spell are the same as the Summon Elemental spell'.

In other words, yes, you can summon FaFL if you want. You can also summon the Kukla if you want, but I never said either of those were good ideas.

[golentan]

Originally Posted by horngeek

I'd almost say 'limitations of the Summon Ghost spell are the same as the Summon Elemental spell'.

In other words, yes, you can summon FaFL if you want. You can also summon the Kukla if you want, but I never said either of those were good ideas.

I do not like this interpretation. Because unlike summon elemental, summon ghost has no term limit on a service clause. So, for 115 motes maximum (doable with a starting circle using blood sacrifices as per the core book) you can summon the Lolcat, giving him no chance to resist your wiles, and say

"See this rock? I like this rock. You are to stand here, not talking to anybody under any circumstances or interacting with anyone in any way unless they interfere with the rock, and you are to guard this rock for all eternity. The only exception is necromancers, who you are to counter the spells of and destroy the instant they reveal themselves to you."

And now, assuming the rock is imperishable (like, say, if you had the foresight to make it jade), a deathlord will stand in one spot unable to hurt anyone unless they touch a rock and unable to give his forces orders. Forever.

And you might say that the neverborn would be able to break him out. But I'm pretty sure that all evidence points to the fact that outside their tombs their limit to effect things is whispering at people angrily. So they send nephwracks to get their boy back on the job by using Banish Ghost, only when they cast it Lolcat counterspells and kills them.

And you can do this to every deathlord. Deathlord threat now ended. You can make it more effective by forcing them to redeem all the abyssals first.

[Madwand]

In other words, yes, you can summon FaFL if you want. You can also summon the Kukla if you want, but I never said either of those were good ideas.

FaFL is not a ghost. He is combination of ghost and 3th circle soul of Neverborn.