Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solution

[Grytorm]

After the summer ends I will be heading off to college. I am not the best at socializing especially with women. So I have two basic questions.

How do I approach a young lady? I have had several crushes in high school and only mentioned anything to one of them. It was not a disaster but i did not head to anything productive.

Secondly how does a relationship generally progress? I have no idea whatsoever how I would handle a single date let alone half a dozen.

[Reluctance]

Do you have any friends who happen to be female? A large part of it is just faking confidence - I've had decent success just going up and saying "hi" - but there's a lot you can learn by having someone who knows how women think give you pointers.

After that there's polishing your game, but don't focus on that at the outset. Trying to learn game through theory rather than practice does nothing other than making you look foolish.

[ThiagoMartell]

Hello folks.
I never thought I would post in this thread, but there is a lot of stuff going on and... I don't know, maybe I just need to vent. It pains me to notice I don't want to talk about this with any of my RL friends.
I have a steady relationship. I've been with my fiancee for three years now and we've been living together for almost a year. Recently, things have gotten a lot complicated. Warning: there is a wall of text below.
My fiancee has trouble staying at jobs. She has already quit three jobs this year and she has not remained even three months in any of them. Now she is selling some stuff freelance, but it makes very little money (not even a fifth of what I get). I'm worried, because she just doesn't seem to have enough responsability to stay in a job. She used to say she wanted the free time to 'keep the house clean' but it simply does not happen. If anything, she does even less housework when she does not have a job.
I can deal with that, though. I mention frequently how this bothers me and how she needs to find a proper job or resume studying... or that at least if she wants to stay in the house and not work, she should take care of all the housework.
Now, an aside: I don't like dogs. I never did. Call me whatever names you might think of, I'm not a dog guy. I don't want and I will never want a dog in my place, specially because I live in a small appartment.
My fiancee has been wanting a dog for a long time. I always mention quite emphatically that I don't want one. She claims she needs company when I'm away (I work in an oil rig, so I spend half the month away from home), but we have friends that live near, her family always wants her around and she just can't be bothered to take an hour long train trek to meet them. Basically, I don't believe it's about loneliness or whatever. I just think she wants a dog for wanting a dog.
Now, aside from not liking dogs, I'm afraid of what a dog could do to my stuff. Even a small dog can destroy plastic miniatures and dice, and I've got a lot of those. I perish the thought of it getting near my books or my boardgames. And I don't think my fiancee is responsible enough to prevent any trouble like this from happening.
After a lot of nagging, I've allowed her to get a damn dog for a one week experience. Still, it botters me. I know the dog will botter me and I know I will not want the dog when that week is up.
Between her lack of a job, her lack of responsability and that damn dog... I really don't know if I should keep up with this. I don't even know if I can keep up with this.
Meh, I thought I would feel better after typing this but I don't.

[dehro]

Originally Posted by Grytorm

After the summer ends I will be heading off to college. I am not the best at socializing especially with women. So I have two basic questions.

How do I approach a young lady? I have had several crushes in high school and only mentioned anything to one of them. It was not a disaster but i did not head to anything productive.

Secondly how does a relationship generally progress? I have no idea whatsoever how I would handle a single date let alone half a dozen.

it's fake and probably of not much help, but I bumped into it this morning and lolled quite a bit.

Spoiler

[dehro]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

Hello folks.....

1) stuff can be locked up out of reach from dogs.
2) if it still bothers you to have a dog around, maybe you shouldn't allow her to test this, because she IS going to grow attached to whatever dog she'll drag in the house..because she's wanted one forever...and you'll feel bad about it and end up accepting one around even if you really don't want to...which will become a bone of contention.
3) on the plus side however, taking a dog for a limited time, can be a good test of her willingness to grow up and become responsible for herself and the dog...to start with. this way, if she does mess up and allows the dog freedom in the house, you'll know she cares more about her own needs and wants than she cares about you.
4) there are other ways for her to have a dog around "for company". she could take care of dogs of friends, take them out on walkies and so on. hell.. she has issues keeping jobs and likes dogs?
if it's a possibility, get her to become a dog-sitter/walker! that way she'll still make pretty little money (but that seems to be the lesser of the issues here), she'll get all the dog company she can handle, you don't get the dogs in your house, and she gets paid for having dogs around.
if she messes even that up, jobswise, you will at least know that it's probably for the best if she drops the fancy notion of working completely and turns into a full time housewife (with annexed duties), with you bringing home the bacon for both of you..or, if she ends up not doing the house chores either, that your fiancée is a child that needs to grow up and that maybe you're in another place in life and should go your separate ways at least until she catches up with you.

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by dehro

1) stuff can be locked up out of reach from dogs.
2) if it still bothers you to have a dog around, maybe you shouldn't allow her to test this, because she IS going to grow attached to whatever dog she'll drag in the house..because she's wanted one forever...and you'll feel bad about it and end up accepting one around even if you really don't want to...which will become a bone of contention.
3) on the plus side however, taking a dog for a limited time, can be a good test of her willingness to grow up and become responsible for herself and the dog...to start with. this way, if she does mess up and allows the dog freedom in the house, you'll know she cares more about her own needs and wants than she cares about you.
4) there are other ways for her to have a dog around "for company". she could take care of dogs of friends, take them out on walkies and so on. hell.. she has issues keeping jobs and likes dogs?
if it's a possibility, get her to become a dog-sitter/walker! that way she'll still make pretty little money (but that seems to be the lesser of the issues here), she'll get all the dog company she can handle, you don't get the dogs in your house, and she gets paid for having dogs around.
if she messes even that up, jobswise, you will at least know that it's probably for the best if she drops the fancy notion of working completely and turns into a full time housewife (with annexed duties), with you bringing home the bacon for both of you..or, if she ends up not doing the house chores either, that your fiancée is a child that needs to grow up and that maybe you're in another place in life and should go your separate ways at least until she catches up with you.

Hmm, I think you've pretty much covered everything I was going to say there, dehro. Of course, the best way to test someone's commitment to dog ownership is to dogsit for someone for a week when it's absolutely pouring with rain. If she takes the dog out twice a day for a walk of an hour or more in the pouring rain, then it's generally a good sign.

But from what you've described, I really don't think she realises how much responsibility and work lies ahead of her.

EDIT: One other thought has just sprung to mind and it's not a pleasant one I'm afraid - do you think she will use the dog as an excuse to stay at home and not look for work?

[rogueboy]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Do you have any friends who happen to be female? A large part of it is just faking confidence - I've had decent success just going up and saying "hi" - but there's a lot you can learn by having someone who knows how women think give you pointers.

I don't want to start some giant argument, since it's cropped up a few times in the past (this thread and/or the PW&A one, the archives kind of blend into each other in my mind), but be careful about the "how women think" line of thought. As has been pointed out, quite emphatically by several regulars on here, women are not a hive mind, and they don't all think alike. You may well still be able to get some pointers from women, but don't assume that they all think alike - dangerous road to go down, both here (you'll get yelled at, it happens every time) and in life (could easily be seen as misogynistic, something you obviously don't want).


As to actual advice, Gry... don't worry about trying to begin a relationship until you're comfortable hanging out with women as equals. If you have some female friends, even if they're just part of a study group, you'll be in better shape when you try to pursue an actual relationship. Also, I'd probably wait until you've gotten adjusted to college (moving, classes, and all the rest is a big change from high school) to actively pursue anything. If things happen before that, it's a different story, but don't go out of your way to look for a relationship before you're comfortable with your living situation, classes, and the rest of the college experience. Also gives you a chance to find a few fun things to do around campus and the town/city, which will help when you start dating.

[WarKitty]

So I don't know if this quite counts as "relationship" advice or not. What's the polite way to deal with someone who's clearly flirting, but hasn't come right out and said anything? I just find the situation terribly awkward - I don't want to be rude, but I'm really uncomfortable dealing with someone who's clearly hoping for something that just isn't going to happen - especially since a lot of people tell me I apparently look like I'm interested when I'm just being friendly. It's making me a lot more withdrawn around guys in public, which I really don't like because people are fun.

[Castaras]

My approach with that is either to ignore it if it's ignorable, or if it gets too obvious / irritating I'll be blunt that I'm flattered but not interested, now could you be a little less flirty please it's making me uncomfortable.

I mostly end up ignoring though - I know I'm an awful judge of people's intentions, so I prefer to wait until someone actually says something so that I know for certain what their feelings are rather than make a guess that'll likely be wrong.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

Spoiler

Hello folks.
I never thought I would post in this thread, but there is a lot of stuff going on and... I don't know, maybe I just need to vent. It pains me to notice I don't want to talk about this with any of my RL friends.
I have a steady relationship. I've been with my fiancee for three years now and we've been living together for almost a year. Recently, things have gotten a lot complicated. Warning: there is a wall of text below.
My fiancee has trouble staying at jobs. She has already quit three jobs this year and she has not remained even three months in any of them. Now she is selling some stuff freelance, but it makes very little money (not even a fifth of what I get). I'm worried, because she just doesn't seem to have enough responsability to stay in a job. She used to say she wanted the free time to 'keep the house clean' but it simply does not happen. If anything, she does even less housework when she does not have a job.
I can deal with that, though. I mention frequently how this bothers me and how she needs to find a proper job or resume studying... or that at least if she wants to stay in the house and not work, she should take care of all the housework.
Now, an aside: I don't like dogs. I never did. Call me whatever names you might think of, I'm not a dog guy. I don't want and I will never want a dog in my place, specially because I live in a small appartment.
My fiancee has been wanting a dog for a long time. I always mention quite emphatically that I don't want one. She claims she needs company when I'm away (I work in an oil rig, so I spend half the month away from home), but we have friends that live near, her family always wants her around and she just can't be bothered to take an hour long train trek to meet them. Basically, I don't believe it's about loneliness or whatever. I just think she wants a dog for wanting a dog.
Now, aside from not liking dogs, I'm afraid of what a dog could do to my stuff. Even a small dog can destroy plastic miniatures and dice, and I've got a lot of those. I perish the thought of it getting near my books or my boardgames. And I don't think my fiancee is responsible enough to prevent any trouble like this from happening.
After a lot of nagging, I've allowed her to get a damn dog for a one week experience. Still, it botters me. I know the dog will botter me and I know I will not want the dog when that week is up.
Between her lack of a job, her lack of responsability and that damn dog... I really don't know if I should keep up with this. I don't even know if I can keep up with this.
Meh, I thought I would feel better after typing this but I don't.

Unreliable, nags until you break down and then define the new state as the new "normal", and we have no idea what she wants to do with her time other than have someone to cover the bills while she's being lazy. This does not sound like a good pet owner. Or a good partner.

Mild language behind the link, but I think I have an elegant solution to your problem in five simple letters. You can do better.

Originally Posted by WarKitty

So I don't know if this quite counts as "relationship" advice or not. What's the polite way to deal with someone who's clearly flirting, but hasn't come right out and said anything? I just find the situation terribly awkward - I don't want to be rude, but I'm really uncomfortable dealing with someone who's clearly hoping for something that just isn't going to happen - especially since a lot of people tell me I apparently look like I'm interested when I'm just being friendly. It's making me a lot more withdrawn around guys in public, which I really don't like because people are fun.

Lots of people flirt with no intention of it going anywhere. It's just for fun, and confirmation of mutual attractiveness.

Unfortunately, you'll have to shoot people down a lot if you want it to stop completely. A serious suit and a serious attitude can probably help designate certain areas of your life as flirt-free zones, but it's the intermediate socializing areas where the urge to perform mating dances inevitably starts to peek out.

[WarKitty]

The problem is mainly that I end up feeling trapped in the conversation. I don't mind that people try, but I feel like I have no way to say "this isn't the kind of interaction I'm interested in right now" without shutting down all social interaction of any sort. I want to be able to go out and make friends and meet people without spending a lot of time trapped in these interactions.

[Synovia]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Unreliable, nags until you break down and then define the new state as the new "normal", and we have no idea what she wants to do with her time other than have someone to cover the bills while she's being lazy. This does not sound like a good pet owner. Or a good partner.

Mild language behind the link, but I think I have an elegant solution to your problem in five simple letters. You can do better.

In these situations, I always think its a good idea to look at both sides of the story. As far as I'm concerned, if hes away most of the time, hes got no real business telling her how to run the household. Its her household, and shes the one who has to actually live in it, so she gets to make the "livability" rules. It doesn't matter which way the money flows.

OP, If you can't trust her, (which it sounds like you can't), or her life goals don't align with yours, or you're just not compatible, then leave.

But as it sounds, you're being selfish. She wants something badly, and you've decided that she can't have it because it would inconvenience you (and might eat some dice, oh no!), despite the fact that you said you're not there most of the time. You're resentful (probably about the money and her lack of jobs), and trying to use that to justify controlling her. Thats never good in a relationship. You're not your SO's mother/father, you're a partner. And that means equal responsibility/power.

So, either leave, or let her have her dog.

[Serpentine]

Originally Posted by Grytorm

How do I approach a young lady?

Like a human being - like she is one, and like you are one. Like you would like to have an interaction with her, because you think she looks interesting and you'd like to talk with her as an interesting person you'd like to get to know.
Not like a thing whose bones you want to jump.
Start a conversation. Flirt with, don't hit on.

Originally Posted by Grytorm

Secondly how does a relationship generally progress?

There's a "getting to know you" bit, and there's an "official date" bit - sometimes these are mooshed together into the one bit, or sometimes the date bit is skipped over. There's a conversation that involves "I really like you. Do you really like me? I would like to be in a relationship with you." Then you are in a relationship (or not, as the case may be).

Yes, these are very vague answers. There's a reason for that: every single person is different. You're different to other people, all those "young ladies" you're thinking about approaching are different to other people, any relationship you might get into will be different to every other relationship that exists because it will include (at least <.<) two people who are different to everyone else. We can give you some advice - like "make sure the person you're coming onto has an escape route if they get uncomfortable" or "don't poop with them in the bathroom on the first date, unless you know they're into that" - but the more specific we get, the more it's gonna get piled up with exceptions and disagreements.

[arguskos]

Well, I asked someone out. Now, we'll see how it goes. Wish me luck, ladies and gents! Hopefully, she is interested. If not, I made it clear that I'd still like to be friends (true statement, she's fun to spend time with), and I am confident that she takes me at my word on this one.

Overthinking, overthinking. Gotta just let it go, be relaxed, and trust to the flows of fate on this one. *breathes deep, gets ready for sleep, plans on relaxing*

[ThiagoMartell]

Thanks everyone for all the advice, it was good to see different points of view. We had a fight over facebook today and I'm afraid when I get home next monday it will be only to pack my stuff and move somewhere else...

[The Succubus]

@ThaigoMartell: It's a really hard call and it's one that's going to make you feel really gloomy for a while but it's probably the right one. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Serpentine

Flirt with, don't hit on.

Now this is something that I could use some guidance with. As you may have noticed, my online persona is considerably more flirty than my meat space persona (it's a body confidence thing >.>) but anyways...

How does one know when one is being playfully flirty and when one is hitting on someone?

[Serpentine]

Originally Posted by The Succubus

Now this is something that I could use some guidance with. As you may have noticed, my online persona is considerably more flirty than my meat space persona (it's a body confidence thing >.>) but anyways...

How does one know when one is being playfully flirty and when one is hitting on someone?

I've been thinking a lot about this at work at the nightclub. I think it's like the difference between dancing with someone, and dancing at them: it's about engagement, and reciprocation. When you hit on someone, the other person is a target, the passive subject of your active attention. When you flirt with someone, you're inviting engagement from someone you find interesting. Hitting on is one-sided, flirting is two-sided.
Of course, a lack of reciprocation isn't always the initiator's fault. A person could be genuinely flirting with, not hitting on, but if the other person just point-blank isn't interested then there's nothing you can do to draw them in. I think as long as you went in with the intention of engaging them, and let it go as soon as it's apparent to you that they're not responding, you're still in the bounds of flirting with, not hitting on.

[sktarq]

Originally Posted by dehro

I'm going to be unpleasant and sound like a coward, maybe...but..

Run like you've had a bad burrito.

Spoiler

You have moved on, after a fashion. so has she, albeit downwards. You are not in the position/role anymore to have a meaningful and effective role in her..solving her compounded issues... this means that if you do something to help her, you're only risking to complicate matters for her...or even just suffer yourself because, from the way you describe her, she stands a good chance of failing at recovering anytime soon..
Either you commit 100% to the cause of helping her get over the hurdles she's facing, (but can you really? do you have the strength and is that indeed your responsability and role in her life? this is not just you, she must consider you her rock as well, or it will be a one way effort with no results. She cannot overcome addictions because she's kindly asked to by others. It has to come from within).. or you bow out and try to do as much damage control you can do in regards to your own life. Walking away and breaking contact with her may actually be the healthiest option for yourself.
anything other than 100% commitment or taking a step back is going to be too little too late, and has a potential for disastrous consequences, emotionally speaking..for yourself and for her.

Trust me I've though about that. However that wont happen for several reasons.

The first is the one that I put in my original post. That "Total dropping of contact not being desired but even if I did my imagination would just fill things in just as bad if not worse." Which is pretty much unavoidable. It would combine with the not-to-sensible amount of guilt I have over watching her collapse when I was the main emotional support in her life to end up worse than it really is.

Also if she does finally hit rock bottom one day she will have to be able to reach out to somebody who she trusts. Which sadley doesn't include her family. At this time she doesn't trust AA enough to go to them directly. It's not something I feel I NEED to do/be but I feel I SHOULD be there if I can.

Also I still love this girl. I'm just not in love with anymore. Nor do I really trust her anymore, no matter how much I want to. I really enjoy spending time with her (when she is sober at least). Which feeds into the idea that I've left to many of the people of my past behind anyway and have been trying to hold to what I can.

So what I'm really looking for is an alternative to breaking all contact. I know that option and don't like it. It may come to pass that it is nessesary at which point I'll deal with the problems mentioned above. But I do not feel I could do that without exausting all other options first.

And the final reason: A gentleman will walk but never run.

[Blisstake]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

I know it's an incredibly trite change of topic, but I really am curious to know the answer: how many times has everyone been in love? Not in lust, infatuated with or had a crush on, but been in love? Supplemental questions: how old are you, and how many relationships have you had?
I've always been thinking that I don't fall for people as often as others do, but I've never actually asked anyone. So... now I'm doing so.

Very late response, but...

Only once. I'm 20, and have been in 1 relationship. Still in it, actually.

[Sholos]

I still don't understand how to flirt and am horrible at it. Also I've noticed that girls don't like physical contact with me...

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by sktarq

Spoiler

Trust me I've though about that. However that wont happen for several reasons.

The first is the one that I put in my original post. That "Total dropping of contact not being desired but even if I did my imagination would just fill things in just as bad if not worse." Which is pretty much unavoidable. It would combine with the not-to-sensible amount of guilt I have over watching her collapse when I was the main emotional support in her life to end up worse than it really is.

Also if she does finally hit rock bottom one day she will have to be able to reach out to somebody who she trusts. Which sadley doesn't include her family. At this time she doesn't trust AA enough to go to them directly. It's not something I feel I NEED to do/be but I feel I SHOULD be there if I can.

Also I still love this girl. I'm just not in love with anymore. Nor do I really trust her anymore, no matter how much I want to. I really enjoy spending time with her (when she is sober at least). Which feeds into the idea that I've left to many of the people of my past behind anyway and have been trying to hold to what I can.

So what I'm really looking for is an alternative to breaking all contact. I know that option and don't like it. It may come to pass that it is nessesary at which point I'll deal with the problems mentioned above. But I do not feel I could do that without exausting all other options first.

And the final reason: A gentleman will walk but never run.

Here's what you do.

Tell her that if she wants you in her life, she needs to be getting professional help. You cannot do this on your own. You have to put it in plain language, so that both of you can see if how invested she is in this. If she doesn't think that you're worth becoming a better version of herself for, that should tell you everything you need to know.

You can leave an offer open so that if she does want to get help, your door is always open. But it has to be her wanting to change. Welcome to reality: People cannot fly, genies do not grant wishes, and you cannot magically fix someone by loving them hard enough.

Sholos: I've said this before, I'll say it again. Women are shallow. (A subset of "people are shallow".) Work out, develop some fashion sense, and chicks will start coming out of the woodwork. It's that, or develop a large bank account.

If you lack fashion sense, getting to know people who can help you is handy.

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Sholos: I've said this before, I'll say it again. Women are shallow. (A subset of "people are shallow".) Work out, develop some fashion sense, and chicks will start coming out of the woodwork. It's that, or develop a large bank account.

If you lack fashion sense, getting to know people who can help you is handy.

Actually, the guys I see around me getting cuddles and physical affection aren't exactly paragons of physical shape either. In fact, some of them are in worse shape than me.

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by Sholos

I still don't understand how to flirt and am horrible at it. Also I've noticed that girls don't like physical contact with me...

Girls are like animals in this regard - they sense fear and it makes them uncomfortable. If you're nervous or anxious, it makes people around you edgy - it's a survival instinct thing.

As for flirting, treat it as something along the lines of a joke or a game. A flirty comment is something that makes the other person feel good about themselves with an underlying promise of sexiness that probably won't (but might!) be made good on.

You need to be confident in order to flirt well though, otherwise it comes off as creepy. Do you have any female friends you could ask for pointers?

Or...why not try it online? Hell, half the stuff I say on here would make me spontaneously combust in real life but because I feel warm and comfortable with my friends on here, that's why I feel I can playfully flirt with them without the risk of anyone feeling embarassed.

Don't go overboard with it but just look at the ways certain people interact with each other (especially in the You thread, SMBG section, the Crush thread obviously). Look for the mood, not the words.

[The Fiery Tower]

So here's a non-relationship problem I need some help with:

Spoiler

So a bunch of friends and I usually hang out on skype pretty much daily. One of these friends I've had since grade school, and while we didn't get the chance to go to high school together, we're now roommates during the school year and are still pretty good friends. It's late at night(early A.M.), and everyone else logged off to sleep/do other things. I'm playing a game and he's browsing the internet. I ask him if he wants to play X game with me a couple of times, but he says he doesn't want to. About half an hour or so after the last person gets off, he says he's tired and is going to sleep, then proceeds to do so. Up to this point there's obviously no problem.

However, about 10ish minutes after he says he's going to sleep, he and a mutual friend randomly log on to the game I was asking him to play before and am still playing. Doesn't ask me if I want to join, doesn't mention anything to me at all, basically he acted like I wasn't online(he would have known I was online, especially since I told him I wasn't going to sleep quite yet). I sent him a message("Don't mind me, I only asked you to play X game a few times", which, to be fair, probably isn't the best way to go about bringing the topic up, but at that point I was pretty annoyed), which he has yet to reply to. When I look at this situation, I'm not sure what to think. On the one hand, it's not like he slept with my girlfriend or anything. It's a small thing in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand, it's not like he couldn't have said "Hey, I'm going to go play X game with a friend, and I can't invite you for Y reason."(though I'm struggling to find a good Y reason, since he's one of the people who skypes with us regularly). Or hell, even just said "I'm going to go play X game with a friend" without a reason would have been okay. I would have been slightly annoyed, but fine with that. The problem is that he lied. I'm not quite sure how I should respond to that.

So here's the problem: I don't know what I should do by this point, especially since I don't have all of the facts. I don't want to overreact to the situation, but I also don't want to underreact. So, assuming he doesn't send me a message through steam or clear things up by tomorrow, what should I do?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[The Succubus]

I can understand this.

I have an online gaming clan that I regularly play games with and while we are all friends and whatnot, sometimes we simply cannot play together because it devolves into screaming at each other and use of the choicest epithets this side of the Internet. Dota 2, Heroes of Newerth, Team Fortress 2...

A friendship is always more valuable than a game together. Ask yourself the following - "When I play these games with these guys, what is my performance *HONESTLY* like?"

I enjoy playing Dota 2 with my friends but my performance is dreadful and can spoil their enjoyment of the game. So it's pretty simple - I play the game with members of the gaming clan that want to join and if they want a pro game by themselves, I leave them to it and play something else. The resulting Teamspeak dialogue often makes for superlative entertainment.

In short - don't read too much into it and don't try to force yourself into a game where you may not be welcome. There are *always* other games to play and I'm certain they will want to play with you.

[The Fiery Tower]

Originally Posted by The Succubus

I can understand this.

I have an online gaming clan that I regularly play games with and while we are all friends and whatnot, sometimes we simply cannot play together because it devolves into screaming at each other and use of the choicest epithets this side of the Internet. Dota 2, Heroes of Newerth, Team Fortress 2...

A friendship is always more valuable than a game together. Ask yourself the following - "When I play these games with these guys, what is my performance *HONESTLY* like?"

I enjoy playing Dota 2 with my friends but my performance is dreadful and can spoil their enjoyment of the game. So it's pretty simple - I play the game with members of the gaming clan that want to join and if they want a pro game by themselves, I leave them to it and play something else. The resulting Teamspeak dialogue often makes for superlative entertainment.

In short - don't read too much into it and don't try to force yourself into a game where you may not be welcome. There are *always* other games to play and I'm certain they will want to play with you.

I could understand this perfectly, if it was a game like Dota or LoL. I do sometimes overreact in those games. However, the game in question is Civ 5, which I haven't even had for 2 days, and as far as I can tell this isn't a game where things get heated to a Dota/LoL level(Also, no, there isn't a huge difference in skill{I've played civ games before so I'm not terrible} and no, it wasn't because they wanted to continue a game, and even if it was he could have said that). Plus, we were just playing Civ 5 together not even 3-4 hours before with a few friends with no problem. So it isn't the game. And if it was, I would hope my friend would tell me that there's a problem with how I'm acting in a game, so I could change it, instead of going behind my back.

[WarKitty]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Lots of people flirt with no intention of it going anywhere. It's just for fun, and confirmation of mutual attractiveness.

Unfortunately, you'll have to shoot people down a lot if you want it to stop completely. A serious suit and a serious attitude can probably help designate certain areas of your life as flirt-free zones, but it's the intermediate socializing areas where the urge to perform mating dances inevitably starts to peek out.

Sorry for bringing this back up, but it's been bugging me. It's not that it happens that bothers me. It's that in most social areas of my life, it seems to be the dominant mode of interaction between men and women. And I'm in largely male environments a lot.

I don't mind if it happens sometimes, but my frustration is that it seems dominant to the exclusion of other types of interaction. I want and enjoy basic social interaction, but I feel like I get trapped in this particular type with no way to communicate "sorry I'm not interested in this" without being rude.

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

Sorry for bringing this back up, but it's been bugging me. It's not that it happens that bothers me. It's that in most social areas of my life, it seems to be the dominant mode of interaction between men and women. And I'm in largely male environments a lot.

I don't mind if it happens sometimes, but my frustration is that I'm getting to the point where I feel like if I'm not romantically available, I'm not of interest to anyone. Or that I just can't make friends with men because they'll see it as sexual and then not be interested when they realize it's not. I'm looking for friends in a world that doesn't care about friends, just about finding a date.

Do you hang out with lots of single guys? Because a lot of single guys would like not to be single, and if they're not like me (completely over-worried about how any even vaguely sexual remark will be taken and thus unable to actually flirt and will probably end up forever alone) they're probably going to flirt a lot. Though not being interested after finding out you're not available is kind of a jerk move. I know, come hang out with my crowd! We're mostly non-single guys (and the few who are can't/don't flirt at all) so you'd be all super comfortable and stuff!

[prufock]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

I've said this before, I'll say it again. Women are shallow. (A subset of "people are shallow".) Work out, develop some fashion sense, and chicks will start coming out of the woodwork. It's that, or develop a large bank account.

I think I'm doing all right.

Work out: check. I'm in the best shape I've been... at least since my first year of university, 12 years ago. Maybe the best shape I've ever been in. I've been running again, and can do an 8+ mile run on a good day. I also hit weights a few times a week. I'm 6', around 180 lbs, with a good body fat %.

Fashion sense: check? Hard to judge my own style, granted, but I've graduated beyond the "t-shirts and jeans EVERY DAY" phase. The main think I've learned? Looking good is expensive. So I'm probably not going to make any "best dressed" lists any time soon, but I'm not a slouch either.

Bank account: umm... not really, or maybe check? I guess it depends on what you consider "large." I do have a good deal of disposable income, living on just over half of what I make. I'm a financially cautious person, though, so it's not like I'm tossing money around.

So where are these proverbial woodwork ladies?

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by The Succubus

Girls are like animals in this regard - they sense fear and it makes them uncomfortable. If you're nervous or anxious, it makes people around you edgy - it's a survival instinct thing.

As for flirting, treat it as something along the lines of a joke or a game. A flirty comment is something that makes the other person feel good about themselves with an underlying promise of sexiness that probably won't (but might!) be made good on.

You need to be confident in order to flirt well though, otherwise it comes off as creepy. Do you have any female friends you could ask for pointers?

Or...why not try it online? Hell, half the stuff I say on here would make me spontaneously combust in real life but because I feel warm and comfortable with my friends on here, that's why I feel I can playfully flirt with them without the risk of anyone feeling embarassed.

Don't go overboard with it but just look at the ways certain people interact with each other (especially in the You thread, SMBG section, the Crush thread obviously). Look for the mood, not the words.

I think my biggest problem is I can never think of anything to say, certainly not before some other guy who's around says something that gets all the attention (especially the guys I know that like to completely dominate conversations). Which just leaves me in the corner (or off to the side) being quiet and ignored (if not actively moved away from, which has happened in several occasions and certainly does nothing for what little confidence I might have at the time).

There's also the fact that I'm probably over-worried about how people (well, girls mostly) will react to anything I do/say. Like, I never randomly hug a girl from behind (what might be called glomphing in some circles) because I'm hyper-aware of how that might be taken. Though it seems like other guys can get away with anything...

Another problem I'm having is that people I know keep insisting that I'm interesting, fun to be around, and a great guy. Which is great, but apparently not enough to gather any romantic interest from anyone, which is what I'm wanting and no one seems to understand that all the friends in the world don't change the fact that no one wants to be with me (or even show interest in being with me) on any level above friendship. Or is even attracted to me. Which hurts, but I get the feeling that all the people I know (who are in romantic relationships, by the way) don't understand the concept of not feeling loved and desired. The fact that the only other person in my situation (around my age, never been in a relationship) is... well... kind of pathetic (for the most part) isn't really helping. The fact that the one girl I've met who might actually have been into me at some point was basically stolen by a friend (he went after her at a time that I could not due to her currently being in a different relationship) is really frustrating.

EDIT: Another thing is that I can't say something without mentally being serious about it. I just can't seem to bring myself to say something that I don't really mean (unless I'm teasing someone, which I actually very rarely do). That might also be a problem. I'm just a mess, socially.