Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solution

[Dallas-Dakota]

If you're open to help from female friends and as they say, they do say that you're such a great guy then give them this line:

''Well if I'm so awesome, you can help me get a nice girl to realise this and be my girlfriend'' or some variation of it.

[sktarq]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Here's what you do.

Tell her that if she wants you in her life,.... and you cannot magically fix someone by loving them hard enough.

That not only makes sense I did it months ago. It also led to me spending enough time away from her to know the effects of breaking all contact I mentioned above. And she started to get professional therapy at that point. It was followed by a push by her family to get her in live in help. She is getting AA, Therapy, Drugs, and Sober Living. The problem is it is not working, probably because she doesn't in her gut want to stop drinking. I know I can't fix her. I'm not really looking to fix her anymore. I'm looking for a way to emotionally insulate myself from the effects of her behavior until she does reach the point when she is ready to change.

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by Dallas-Dakota

If you're open to help from female friends and as they say, they do say that you're such a great guy then give them this line:

''Well if I'm so awesome, you can help me get a nice girl to realise this and be my girlfriend'' or some variation of it.

I've tried. None of the girls I know know any available girls. Or how to get them.

[dehro]

Originally Posted by Sholos

I've tried. None of the girls I know know any available girls. Or how to get them.

are you saying blowdarts and fishnets don't work anymore?

[WarKitty]

Originally Posted by Sholos

Do you hang out with lots of single guys? Because a lot of single guys would like not to be single, and if they're not like me (completely over-worried about how any even vaguely sexual remark will be taken and thus unable to actually flirt and will probably end up forever alone) they're probably going to flirt a lot. Though not being interested after finding out you're not available is kind of a jerk move. I know, come hang out with my crowd! We're mostly non-single guys (and the few who are can't/don't flirt at all) so you'd be all super comfortable and stuff!

This is a college town, all we've got are single guys.

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

This is a college town, all we've got are single guys.

That is .... surprising. Even here where there's a massive hookup culture I only know of a few single guys. Maybe it's just the crowd I hang out with. I assume you've tried talking to said guys about the situation. If they're not stopping, about the only thing you can do is start ignoring/avoiding them. Don't respond to them if they're being flirty. Nothing kills a mood faster than a girl who just responds coldly. Good luck!

[WarKitty]

Originally Posted by Sholos

That is .... surprising. Even here where there's a massive hookup culture I only know of a few single guys. Maybe it's just the crowd I hang out with. I assume you've tried talking to said guys about the situation. If they're not stopping, about the only thing you can do is start ignoring/avoiding them. Don't respond to them if they're being flirty. Nothing kills a mood faster than a girl who just responds coldly. Good luck!

It's not really an issue with the few friends I already have. My issue is that I feel like I can't make new ones because all I run into are people who are only interested in me as a potential partner.

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

It's not really an issue with the few friends I already have. My issue is that I feel like I can't make new ones because all I run into are people who are only interested in me as a potential partner.

Ohhh, that kind of thing. Well, being me I rarely have an issue with being flirted with, or hit on, or any of that mess, but I would suspect that continued non-flirtation and purely friendly behavior might overcome that. If they don't cool down, then I say they're not worth being friends with anyways and stick to the ones you have. Friends understand when a person isn't interested in being a romantic partner. I honestly don't understand the mindset that these guys apparently have, though, since I'm probably the least flirtatious guy in existence, but I hope things work out for you! What part of the country are you in?

[Reluctance]

Kitty: That's unfortunately an issue I see with a lot of nerdy/techy girls. Their nerdy/techy (overwhelmingly male) peers will alternately see them as something totally alien and something totally alien with boobs, neither of which eases interaction between people who are already, let's say, idiosyncratic.

Unfortunately, the only option you have available personally would involve exploring non-nerdy spaces. Which is a large investment of time and energy when you've already said that those are two things you're short on, not to mention that figuring out the mores for a whole new subculture sounds like it would be more stress than you'd get out of it. But all the other solutions run into the problem that, until a significant number of your male peers stop being spooked around girls, they'll alternately ignore you and be awkward around you. And if I had a magic formula to make nerdy boys stop being spooked around women, I'd be making mad bank off of it instead of hanging around internet forums.

[Heliomance]

Originally Posted by The Succubus

Girls are like animals in this regard - they sense fear and it makes them uncomfortable. If you're nervous or anxious, it makes people around you edgy - it's a survival instinct thing.

As for flirting, treat it as something along the lines of a joke or a game. A flirty comment is something that makes the other person feel good about themselves with an underlying promise of sexiness that probably won't (but might!) be made good on.

You need to be confident in order to flirt well though, otherwise it comes off as creepy. Do you have any female friends you could ask for pointers?

Or...why not try it online? Hell, half the stuff I say on here would make me spontaneously combust in real life but because I feel warm and comfortable with my friends on here, that's why I feel I can playfully flirt with them without the risk of anyone feeling embarassed.

Don't go overboard with it but just look at the ways certain people interact with each other (especially in the You thread, SMBG section, the Crush thread obviously). Look for the mood, not the words.

Especially see: Anything Golentan ever says to Lix Lorn. Ever.

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Kitty: That's unfortunately an issue I see with a lot of nerdy/techy girls. Their nerdy/techy (overwhelmingly male) peers will alternately see them as something totally alien and something totally alien with boobs, neither of which eases interaction between people who are already, let's say, idiosyncratic.

Unfortunately, the only option you have available personally would involve exploring non-nerdy spaces. Which is a large investment of time and energy when you've already said that those are two things you're short on, not to mention that figuring out the mores for a whole new subculture sounds like it would be more stress than you'd get out of it. But all the other solutions run into the problem that, until a significant number of your male peers stop being spooked around girls, they'll alternately ignore you and be awkward around you. And if I had a magic formula to make nerdy boys stop being spooked around women, I'd be making mad bank off of it instead of hanging around internet forums.

I believe the magic formula is simply more exposure to women. That's half the reason they're awkward in the first place,I think, because a lot of the girls in their early life wanted to hang out with the jocks and other popular guys, so they get left behind pretty quickly. I really don't know how or why society expects guys to learn to interact maturely with girls if they have no exposure to them. I, for one, never really had all that many interactions with girls (well, anyone of either sex, actually) in my early life, and I think it's severely crippled my ability to attract one and interact with them in my later life.

[Serpentine]

Maybe I've just been hanging around particularly well-socialised nerds (or the not so well-socialised ones are just generally awkward around everybody), but in my experience the geeky ones are the ones more likely to treat me as a human being they're interested in engaging with. It's the rest who're more likely to see me as boobs on legs.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by Sholos

I believe the magic formula is simply more exposure to women. That's half the reason they're awkward in the first place,I think, because a lot of the girls in their early life wanted to hang out with the jocks and other popular guys, so they get left behind pretty quickly. I really don't know how or why society expects guys to learn to interact maturely with girls if they have no exposure to them. I, for one, never really had all that many interactions with girls (well, anyone of either sex, actually) in my early life, and I think it's severely crippled my ability to attract one and interact with them in my later life.

.....

Let me spell this out, for the umpteenth time in this thread.

Nice girls will put their heads together, and try to put together tricks to help you work on your courage and skills beyond simply repeating "women are people!" ad nauseum. They'll do this in their own way, in their own time. Because just because they like helping people does not mean they don't have a whole rest of their life as well.

Nice girls will not, and should not be expected to, take one for the team. They will not date someone they're not attracted to, as an investment on the off chance that it helps him get his **** together. Not unless they're professionals, and someone's paying them for a longer term role.

I can tell you, Sholos, to try getting involved in an activity where you deal with people on a regular basis so that you're forced to develop social skills outside of your main circle. (Dancing and acting sound good, off the top of my head.) I can try to think of ways to get the unfortunately unwashed nerd masses to get out of their shells and learn about hygiene. But effecting change to the degree that girls like Kitty aren't treated like sideshow freaks by their peers is beyond my three pounds of brain meat at the moment.

Originally Posted by Serpentine

Maybe I've just been hanging around particularly well-socialised nerds (or the not so well-socialised ones are just generally awkward around everybody), but in my experience the geeky ones are the ones more likely to treat me as a human being they're interested in engaging with. It's the rest who're more likely to see me as boobs on legs.

This is just my experience, but pretty much every girl I've met in a tech-type field has complained, not about active misogyny, but about how the spectrum-types around her saw her as something completely other. What did you study? There's a difference between gaming events (where you're unlikely to even be invited by that sort of person), and school/work events where otherwise asocial people are forced to interact.

[Serpentine]

Bachelor of Arts and Science. My geeky friends were doing everything from pure mathematics to science to journalism to theatre to law to history. Most of them played D&D and/or Magic or Yugioh and were gamers, which is how I knew a lot of them. No IT people, which could be significant, except Kitty's in philosophy.

Good plan deleting that last bit.

[Fragenstein]

Originally Posted by Sholos

I believe the magic formula is simply more exposure to women.

Don't try it. This is why I'm not allowed to live near schools or playgrounds.

[WarKitty]

I'm actually not sure if this is a geek problem so much as a social problem. Society has focused on finding "the one" as the key to happiness. If you're not partnered you are expected to be sad and bitter about it, because you couldn't possibly be enjoying friendships outside of a romantic relationship. Conversely, friendships are often seen as second best - listen to some of the "friendzone" nonsense for a good demonstration of this.

[Chen]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

I'm actually not sure if this is a geek problem so much as a social problem. Society has focused on finding "the one" as the key to happiness. If you're not partnered you are expected to be sad and bitter about it, because you couldn't possibly be enjoying friendships outside of a romantic relationship. Conversely, friendships are often seen as second best - listen to some of the "friendzone" nonsense for a good demonstration of this.

I'd say in a lot of cases friendzone vs relationship is really a case of sex vs no sex. And that's more nature than society I'd have to say.

[Reluctance]

Spoiler

A lot of friendzoning is, basically, rejection sucking. A lot more is how most friendzoning is relationship taking with no giving, and why I encourage guys in that sort of "friendship" to nut up, move on, and find someone actually interested in them.

Friendzoning aside, there's graceful flirting where the person drops the point when it's clear that they're not being reciprocated. When both sides understand that friendship involves meeting halfway, female friends are handy and awesome even if nothing directly comes of it. (There's a reason one of my pointers to the eternally lovelorn guys around here is "get to have female friends who will give you fashion pointers and a female POV". Real friends are the ones who'll give you tips instead of empty cliches, while the process forces said dudes to learn how to interact normally with women.)

The issue, at least as I read it from the fact that it's become an issue, is that people are being heavy-handed about it and not taking a hint. In which case, there are only two options; find another social circle, or get everybody in the current one to improve. My position is that, since the first option is a lot of effort and stress, it's worth thinking how to make option two more viable 5-10 years down the line.

I mean, there are ways to get guys to knock it off. Solving the immediate issue (guys make passes at me all the time) doesn't do much about the fundamental issue (feeling the need to make more friends).

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

.....

Let me spell this out, for the umpteenth time in this thread.

Nice girls will put their heads together, and try to put together tricks to help you work on your courage and skills beyond simply repeating "women are people!" ad nauseum. They'll do this in their own way, in their own time. Because just because they like helping people does not mean they don't have a whole rest of their life as well.

Nice girls will not, and should not be expected to, take one for the team. They will not date someone they're not attracted to, as an investment on the off chance that it helps him get his **** together. Not unless they're professionals, and someone's paying them for a longer term role.

Did I say dating? I don't remember saying dating. Please point out where I said dating. What I remember saying was exposure. You know, geeky guys being seen as human and not the plague. But since school tells us that it's not cool to be seen around the non-jocks, the problem is going to continue. Especially when the only guys that geeky guys see getting and hanging out with girls are the jocks and the jerks.

And if what you say is true, then I never knew any nice girls. At least, not ones interested in helping me. Every girl I know just says she doesn't know what to do for me, or tells me to just "wait for things to happen".

I can tell you, Sholos, to try getting involved in an activity where you deal with people on a regular basis so that you're forced to develop social skills outside of your main circle. (Dancing and acting sound good, off the top of my head.) I can try to think of ways to get the unfortunately unwashed nerd masses to get out of their shells and learn about hygiene. But effecting change to the degree that girls like Kitty aren't treated like sideshow freaks by their peers is beyond my three pounds of brain meat at the moment.

Dancing classes aren't free and theater takes way too much time. And now that I'm out of school I can't really show up to random clubs. And there's not a whole lot of activity for adults out of college anyways, especially in my areas of interest.

Originally Posted by Reluctance

When both sides understand that friendship involves meeting halfway, female friends are handy and awesome even if nothing directly comes of it. (There's a reason one of my pointers to the eternally lovelorn guys around here is "get to have female friends who will give you fashion pointers and a female POV". Real friends are the ones who'll give you tips instead of empty cliches, while the process forces said dudes to learn how to interact normally with women.)

Well then I guess I've pretty much been friendless my whole life. Not that I really thought any differently. The only advice I've gotten so far is "stop caring about it and it'll happen". Which... is less than helpful. Oh, and, "You can find someone at work." Because that's a wonderful idea.

[noparlpf]

I've always been a geek and I never had trouble socialising in high school or college. (And mind you, I have Asperger's.) Just find cool people and forget those pricks. But that involves actually finding people and not just hoping people will show up.

[Tvtyrant]

Originally Posted by WarKitty

It's not really an issue with the few friends I already have. My issue is that I feel like I can't make new ones because all I run into are people who are only interested in me as a potential partner.

Are you sure this is actually true, or are you interpreting their actions as such? For instance, I am a flirty person in RL (though not over computers) and tend to think of it as a way to dodge my dreaded enemy (banal small talk). If we met I might flirt with you just so I don't have to start talking about some banal topic (weather, football games, CoD, etc).

Flirting isn't necessarily about seeing the other person as a potential partner, it can simply be a form of shallow communication that tends to happen before deeper discussions can. Or at least that is my experience.

[rogueboy]

Originally Posted by Sholos

Dancing classes aren't free and theater takes way too much time. And now that I'm out of school I can't really show up to random clubs. And there's not a whole lot of activity for adults out of college anyways, especially in my areas of interest.

What, specifically, are your areas of interest? For this, "video games" is WAY too broad; do you like a specific genre of game (RTS, FPS, RPG, MMO, etc), a specific game (Sims, Civ, WoW, Diablo, etc)? Board games? What type of board games? Euro-style co-op type games (Pandemic, Ticket to Ride, Settlers of Catan, etc), more traditional board games (chess, checkers, etc), American-style head-to-head games (Monopoly, Risk, etc)? Reading? What genre/author/book?

Hopefully that gives you the type of specifics that might help us give you ideas of where/how to look. Whether you're in a major city, college town, or more rural area may influence things as well.

For me, the major interests that I have used to find people I like hanging out with include chemistry (work, essentially), soccer, Euro-style board games, and D&D 3.x/PF. I have made friends and/or improved friendships with all of these as catalysts. After that initial connection, it's just a matter of finding out if there's an ability to maintain something. Unsurprisingly, I've met a LOT of people who I either didn't connect with, or actively want to avoid seeing again in all of those areas, as well.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by rogueboy

What, specifically, are your areas of interest? For this, "video games" is WAY too broad; do you like a specific genre of game (RTS, FPS, RPG, MMO, etc), a specific game (Sims, Civ, WoW, Diablo, etc)? Board games? What type of board games? Euro-style co-op type games (Pandemic, Ticket to Ride, Settlers of Catan, etc), more traditional board games (chess, checkers, etc), American-style head-to-head games (Monopoly, Risk, etc)? Reading? What genre/author/book?

Hopefully that gives you the type of specifics that might help us give you ideas of where/how to look. Whether you're in a major city, college town, or more rural area may influence things as well.

For me, the major interests that I have used to find people I like hanging out with include chemistry (work, essentially), soccer, Euro-style board games, and D&D 3.x/PF. I have made friends and/or improved friendships with all of these as catalysts. After that initial connection, it's just a matter of finding out if there's an ability to maintain something. Unsurprisingly, I've met a LOT of people who I either didn't connect with, or actively want to avoid seeing again in all of those areas, as well.

Even as an adult (or so I'm told; I'm eighteen) you can find clubs. Just do a search for "X club in my area" or look at the local library for flyers or something.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Even as an adult (or so I'm told; I'm eighteen) you can find clubs. Just do a search for "X club in my area" or look at the local library for flyers or something.

It's harder once your past school ages, since everybody is full up on Grown Up responsibilities and there are fewer forces pushing you all together. Many of the meat market-y options are downright darwinian, too, and not recommended for newbies. Still, various volunteer and similar opportunities present themselves. (Any geek worth the name should be aware of these, as well as various meetup events for online communities.)

Point being, it does boil down to forcing yourself out of your comfort zone. And then working to position yourself such that luck can work in your favor.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

It's harder once your past school ages, since everybody is full up on Grown Up responsibilities and there are fewer forces pushing you all together. Many of the meat market-y options are downright darwinian, too, and not recommended for newbies. Still, various volunteer and similar opportunities present themselves. (Any geek worth the name should be aware of these, as well as various meetup events for online communities.)

Point being, it does boil down to forcing yourself out of your comfort zone. And then working to position yourself such that luck can work in your favor.

What luck? You should work in your own favour.

[blackfox]

Originally Posted by Sholos

Dancing classes aren't free and theater takes way too much time. And now that I'm out of school I can't really show up to random clubs. And there's not a whole lot of activity for adults out of college anyways, especially in my areas of interest.

If you're still at or around UVa, I grew up in that area. May be able to point things out, such as the location of the FLGS, for example.

[Armin]

I have to ask God to remake me everyday. Every night I break into a thousand pieces like a shattered mirror.
If people would like to pray for someone who's suffering from every direction in life, please do.

[Serpentine]

Geeze Amin, what's up?

So I think my ex took a jab at me over Facebook. Right when I was thinking I'd try to say hello, and need to talk to him about how I'll be back in Australia soon and'll have to get my stuff and my cat back.
Whee.

[Armin]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

Geeze Amin, what's up?

So I think my ex took a jab at me over Facebook. Right when I was thinking I'd try to say hello, and need to talk to him about how I'll be back in Australia soon and'll have to get my stuff and my cat back.
Whee.

It's like. . . my mood never changes. :/

Well it does. It's more like 4 or 5 shades of black or grey and never something very bright and happy. It can get pretty dark in my mind, and it's not often that happy. I'd like to have some kind of positive emotion other than just "A little bit more than content."
What's kind of more than that is I feel, well, broken. Can I really feel any better than just like life's going down the tube?

[Reluctance]

This is RWA. General life stuff is a separate thread. I mean, you're welcome to vent here, but we'll think it's about the guy/girl of your dreams.

As for your issue, it sounds like you need professional help. Quite possibly meds. We're not allowed to give advice on this scale here beyond "go see a professional", and even if we were, I wouldn't know where to start.

Serp: Mutual friends are magical. Have a few go to pick up your stuff before you get back, under the excuse that it'll let you feel all comfy and settled in when you actually do get home.

If the two of you lack mutual friends, have some neutral friends try the same trick. The key point here is that, if it seems like feelings are bristly, keeping distance is good.