Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solution

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by MountainKing

I was going to write out an angry, bitter reply. I really was. But, I thought about it, and I changed my mind. My reaction stems more from the pre-existing hurt far, far more than it does from what you actually said. I'm sure you don't mean to say I'm new to how love feels, whether bad or good. It was just you trying to help, in your own way.

I appreciate that.

Yeah, I'm sorry. Reading it again it does come across a bit callous. I mean to say, yeah, I've been there once, and I know how crappy it can feel. And to be honest I'm a bit jealous that you're motivated to do things. Lack of motivation is my fatal flaw.

[rogueboy]

Well, I just got a (good) surprise upon checking my OKC account after being out of town for the weekend: after sending 8 messages without any replies, I had someone message me without any initiation on my side. It's a nice pick-me-up after feeling somewhat down about the whole process given my lack of anything thus far. As it's past bed-time for me and I drove over 500 miles in the last 2 days (I don't usually drive more than 100 miles in a month, and that's in a busy month), I'll be dealing with the whole 'responding' thing on the morrow. Yay possible progess? Now I just have to try not to screw things up too badly

[MountainKing]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Yeah, I'm sorry. Reading it again it does come across a bit callous. I mean to say, yeah, I've been there once, and I know how crappy it can feel. And to be honest I'm a bit jealous that you're motivated to do things. Lack of motivation is my fatal flaw.

It's a fatal flaw of my own as well. I was in the process of making changes to my life when A left my life, but, I wasn't motivated. Now, I'm motivated, but empty inside. So, without sounding too bitter (I hope), I would never wish this kind of motivation on anyone. I wouldn't feel jealous, were I you.

[carpentron]

Anyone willing to give me some advice (by PM)?

[Dallas-Dakota]

Oh hey, Rejectionville, population: Me.

What was planned was chilling for some hours, so we did that. And then we went out for dinner and afterwards watched the fireworks.(Today was Queensday over here, national holiday)

We had a good time, she laughed at pretty much all my jokes, even the bad ones xD, we seemed pretty into eachother, and then, Rejectionville! Meh.

[rogueboy]

So, update from the previous post (scroll up a few posts if you're curious): the one who messaged me was not someone who I'd be interested in, so I'm going to let it sit without a response. Also noticed that 1 of the girls I've messaged is no longer listed as single (in my visitors window), so that may explain, at least partially, the lack of reply from her.

Hurray for back to square 1, I guess.

On a side note, what does a listing of "available" rather than "single" mean to people?

[Serpentine]

Could mean they're in an open or polyamorous relationship.

[rogueboy]

Makes sense, Serp, but she specifically stated (in her questions) that she wasn't interested in an open relationship. I'm assuming that would include a polyamorous relationship as well, though I could be mistaken on that.

I have a habit of forgetting that type of thing, and almost didn't even remember it when you mentioned that. Oops?

[Reluctance]

Lots of people are Available as an artifact of the system. Available happens if you list yourself as Seeing Someone, but are still open for dates. Lots of people will change the first, not know that they have to change the second, and end up Available until they figure things out.

[dehro]

Originally Posted by carpentron

Anyone willing to give me some advice (by PM)?

fire away

Originally Posted by rogueboy

On a side note, what does a listing of "available" rather than "single" mean to people?

*insert bad joke with sexual content here*

[rogueboy]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Lots of people are Available as an artifact of the system. Available happens if you list yourself as Seeing Someone, but are still open for dates. Lots of people will change the first, not know that they have to change the second, and end up Available until they figure things out.

The more you know...

Originally Posted by dehro

*insert bad joke with sexual content here*

Yup, pretty much. Also, this has somehow become the undertone of my life (at least in one circle of friends) recently, to reasons that I honestly can't explain. Oh well, it keeps things 'interesting', at least

[fergo]

Originally Posted by Dallas-Dakota

Oh hey, Rejectionville, population: Me.

What was planned was chilling for some hours, so we did that. And then we went out for dinner and afterwards watched the fireworks.(Today was Queensday over here, national holiday)

We had a good time, she laughed at pretty much all my jokes, even the bad ones xD, we seemed pretty into eachother, and then, Rejectionville! Meh.

Why? What happened?

[Dallas-Dakota]

Well she's almost certainly moving to Scotland to study Biomedical science after the summer.

At the end of the day when we were saying bye to eachother she seemed reluctant to hug me(And normally we're both pretty huggy persons), but I went for it anyway and asked if anything could happen between us despite Scotland, because I really like her and she said ''You're really nice...but no.''

So yeah, most likely a combination of her not liking me I guess and her moving away for six years after the summer.

[fergo]

I'm sorry man, that's rough . But there is no way that her deciding not to continue your relationship had anything to do with her not liking you.

Not wanting to continue a relationship long-term, especially when you're going away to uni (I assume this is the case here, correct me if I'm wrong), is natural. Plenty of people break off long term relationships because of it, so stopping a developing relationship from going further is, unfortunately, to be expected.

I know it sounds harsh and unfair, and to be honest, it kind of is. But what you have to take away is that it's a positive experience for you, and if it didn't work out it definitely wasn't your fault.

[Dvil]

My first love broke up with me because her family decided to move away to New Zealand. Admittedly Britain-NZ is a bigger distance than Scotland-Netherlands, but it's the same idea.

Now we've both moved on, and we're really close friends. We don't talk often (due to being 11 timezones apart), but still. You've missed out on a relationship, but I'd bet money that you've not lost the friendship.

[Serpentine]

So a guy on OKCupid has messaged me and started arguments over religion and feminism, the former in which he misrepresents something I've said, and the latter in which he makes sweeping statements equating all feminists with the "manhating" variety.
Protip: best not to do that 'til, oh say... at least the 5th exchange, rather than the 1st -.-

[rogueboy]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

So a guy on OKCupid has messaged me and started arguments over religion and feminism, the former in which he misrepresents something I've said, and the latter in which he makes sweeping statements equating all feminists with the "manhating" variety.
Protip: best not to do that 'til, oh say... at least the 5th exchange, rather than the 1st -.-

Wait, that's allowed ever?!? Apparently, I'm well overdue for this conversation with some of my friends...

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

So a guy on OKCupid has messaged me and started arguments over religion and feminism, the former in which he misrepresents something I've said, and the latter in which he makes sweeping statements equating all feminists with the "manhating" variety.
Protip: best not to do that 'til, oh say... at least the 5th exchange, rather than the 1st -.-

Oh come now, m'dear - everyone knows that pouring scorn over what they believe is the way to a woman's heart, right?

[arguskos]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

So a guy on OKCupid has messaged me and started arguments over religion and feminism, the former in which he misrepresents something I've said, and the latter in which he makes sweeping statements equating all feminists with the "manhating" variety.
Protip: best not to do that 'til, oh say... at least the 5th exchange, rather than the 1st -.-

Damn, you're on to me! Gotta change up my tactics!
...
...
Yes, kidding.
...
...

[Sturmcrow]

Originally Posted by Dallas-Dakota

Oh hey, Rejectionville, population: Me.

What was planned was chilling for some hours, so we did that. And then we went out for dinner and afterwards watched the fireworks.(Today was Queensday over here, national holiday)

We had a good time, she laughed at pretty much all my jokes, even the bad ones xD, we seemed pretty into eachother, and then, Rejectionville! Meh.

You are not the only one in Rejectionville.

I was having a good time working on something with a friend of mine who told me she was not ready for a committed relationship. Than a guy she was talking to in MO wanted them to be committed and she went ahead even though we both are in CA. /sigh

Other fish in the sea and all that right?

The feeling sucks but just got to keep moving on, some other person will come along and laugh at your jokes tool

[MountainKing]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

So a guy on OKCupid has messaged me and started arguments over religion and feminism, the former in which he misrepresents something I've said, and the latter in which he makes sweeping statements equating all feminists with the "manhating" variety.
Protip: best not to do that 'til, oh say... at least the 5th exchange, rather than the 1st -.-

Admit it Serp, deep down inside, you want to keep battling him in the arena of debate.

...

I mean, I can't be the only one who will doggedly debate a total stranger into the ground because I think they're wrong over the Internet. Right?

[Serpentine]

Not at the moment. Been doing too much arguing elsewhere, and I've had a seriously ****ty day for reasons that aren't likely to get better anytime soon. So I'm argued out.

[MountainKing]

Awwww man... I hate it when that happens. I'm sorry to hear that, Serp.

So, since hopefully nobody noticed my past endorsement of unhealthy behavior for coping with pain, here's a positive one I've been exercising all day: cleaning. Seriously, if you're hurt? Go clean your room. Go through all your stuff, find all the random useless gubbins that are mucking up your space, and pitch 'em. Curse my being in an upstairs apartment... there's a pile of boxes of junk congealing in my hallway near the door.

Been a hurting kind of day. But still. Cleaning? Great outlet.

[Velaryon]

Hi everybody, this is my first time posting in this thread. I'm gonna spoiler it because this is going to get long and complex.

Spoiler

I've been seeing this girl (K for short) for about a month. We met through a friend of mine that may have also had designs on her, but that's not the issue at hand here (it is a separate issue that eventually needs resolving, but takes a back seat to my real problem).

Before going any farther I need to explain that this is the first real relationship I've had of any kind. I was always too afraid of rejection to ask anyone out, and my self-esteem has never been very good. It only got worse after years and years of being perpetually single. What made things different in this case was that she actually told me first that she was attracted to me, and from there it wasn't so hard for me.

We hit it off very quickly, and found ourselves telling each other things that we don't commonly share with many people. She told me about a previous relationship of hers that had ended badly because she almost cheated on her boyfriend after they'd had a fight, but she came to her senses and stopped herself before she went all the way through with it. It was still enough that it eventually killed the relationship when she confessed to him about it (I'm not totally clear on the timeline, whether they broke up immediately thereafter or whether it simmered for awhile, but it was definitely the main cause for the split).

I learned that K still felt badly about what she'd done even though it's been a couple of years, and part of her felt like she didn't deserve to be happy with anyone because she would just screw it up again. I helped her see that what she had done wasn't nearly as bad as what she almost did, and that she didn't need to beat herself up about it anymore because she'd caused herself enough emotional suffering about things. She seemed like she was ready to move on, but in the back of my mind I worried whether she might still have feelings for him that would be a problem for me.

A week or two later, she went to a friend's wedding that she knew her ex would also be at because they were mutual friends with the bride and groom. She told me she was going to apologize to him for it and let him know that she'd finally started to get over the guilt she felt, and wish him well with the girl he was seeing now. He blew her off, and she called me in tears and we talked some more.

However, they talked again by phone a couple days later and from her recounting of things to me, they both seemed ready to move on. She wished him well with his new girlfriend and everything. Since he was her first love I expected there would always be some place in her heart for him, but as long as it remained firmly in the past I was okay with that. I might even have been cool with them remaining friends.

But a couple days later, I found out that he dumped his current girlfriend and told K he was ready to get back together if she wanted to. As I'd feared, she still feels something for him, but also has strong feelings for me. She's in a bind where she has to make a choice that will hurt somebody, and feels terrible with that knowledge. If it matters, I believe her ex lives a few hours away from her so physically being together with her is harder for him than it is for me.

So right now we've dialed back the physical aspects of the relationship while she sorts through her feelings and decides who she really wants to be with, but we've still met up a couple more times. We've been out on about six dates now (well, a couple of them might not have really qualified but we've met up about six times), and all of them have gone well in that I haven't done anything wrong to screw it up and we've always had a good time. But now I'm in this situation where I can't be truly happy until/unless this choice is made.

The physical aspect of the relationship has dialed back some but not stopped entirely. Kisses have been more on the cheek the last couple times, rather than full on the mouth with tongue and so on. This past Sunday she took a nap while cuddling with me as we watched TV, and later that evening we went to the last WWE pay per view where we had a great time. She stayed the night at my place because it was a long drive home and I live closer to where she works anyway, but we stayed in separate rooms (I gave up my bed to her and took the couch).

I've accepted that I might lose out, and I know that will hurt like hell but I'll survive. Nonetheless, I want to be the one she chooses if at all possible, and that's where I need some advice. So here are the questions I have:

1) I want to continue to spend time with her and reinforce the feelings we have for each other, but I don't want to seem needy or pushy. I feel like if I ask to see her too often she'll push me away, and I don't want that. How much is too much, or better yet how can I tell (like what signals should I look for) when to back off?

2) Should I initiate anything physically as far as hand-holding, kissing, and so on, or should I hold back and let her totally take the lead on that kind of thing for now? She knows by now that I'm very attracted to her, but I'm unsure whether I would do more harm than good if I try to keep up the kissing and so on.

3) Finally, how long should I wait for her to make a decision? I want to be supportive, but it tears me up inside every day to know that I could be on the verge of losing the best thing that's ever happened to me. I'm capable of enduring it for as long as I have to, and it doesn't seem like a good idea to let on just how much I'm hurting while she is going through this decision. But I don't see much point in prolonging my pain if she becomes unable or unwilling to make a choice, so how long should I wait for her to decide before I decide enough is enough and walk away?

4) In the event she does choose me, should I insist on her breaking contact with him?

Thanks in advance for any help. Simply putting this out there helps somewhat, though I'm badly in need of advice.

[dehro]

Originally Posted by Velaryon

1) I want to continue to spend time with her and reinforce the feelings we have for each other, but I don't want to seem needy or pushy. I feel like if I ask to see her too often she'll push me away, and I don't want that. How much is too much, or better yet how can I tell (like what signals should I look for) when to back off?

2) Should I initiate anything physically as far as hand-holding, kissing, and so on, or should I hold back and let her totally take the lead on that kind of thing for now? She knows by now that I'm very attracted to her, but I'm unsure whether I would do more harm than good if I try to keep up the kissing and so on.

3) Finally, how long should I wait for her to make a decision? I want to be supportive, but it tears me up inside every day to know that I could be on the verge of losing the best thing that's ever happened to me. I'm capable of enduring it for as long as I have to, and it doesn't seem like a good idea to let on just how much I'm hurting while she is going through this decision. But I don't see much point in prolonging my pain if she becomes unable or unwilling to make a choice, so how long should I wait for her to decide before I decide enough is enough and walk away?

4) In the event she does choose me, should I insist on her breaking contact with him?
[/spoiler]

Thanks in advance for any help. Simply putting this out there helps somewhat, though I'm badly in need of advice.

been there..or at least, in a very similar situation.

1) no idea.. there isn't a real way to tell what's right there.. you know her better than any of us ever will. I'd say look for disappointment, steps back, when she puts a bit of a barrier between the two of you.. physically. what the actual signs are is different for each individual.
2)a try or two can't hurt. if anything it can help you with point 1.. and tell you whether she HAS "taken a step back from you"..even though it won't tell you if she's done so out of consideration for yourself or out of attraction for the other guy. all in all I'd say go for it within the boundaries of how confident you are about it and how quickly you'll catch signs of her disapproving.
3)you should talk to her. Maybe without letting on the exact full extent of your involvement..but still try and put forth the message that she's important and being in a limbo sucks for you. I took a step back and let everything in her hands..the net result was that she went with the other guy.
my situation was very different though..
What with me most likely not staying in the country (which indeed happened). you have more to offer in that respect..and you're in a better position to fight for her, so to speak.
4)again, talk it out with her. the fact she hasn't seen him in several years means there's no social involvement unless looked for. Ideally she won't be looking for him once she's chosen you.. an you can ask her to tell him to stay away and respect her choice, at least for a while.. if she goes looking for him, you know however that the problem isn't 100% solved.

all in all I would suggest that talking is the best way to sort these things out and to let her know your feelings may sway her decision (in a non guilt ridden way, that is)...but it IS a fine balancing act.
As long as you remember she isn't "destined" to be with him nor with you.. because destiny is what you make..through action or inaction.

good luck

[Dallas-Dakota]

Originally Posted by fergo

I'm sorry man, that's rough . But there is no way that her deciding not to continue your relationship had anything to do with her not liking you.

Not wanting to continue a relationship long-term, especially when you're going away to uni (I assume this is the case here, correct me if I'm wrong), is natural. Plenty of people break off long term relationships because of it, so stopping a developing relationship from going further is, unfortunately, to be expected.

I know it sounds harsh and unfair, and to be honest, it kind of is. But what you have to take away is that it's a positive experience for you, and if it didn't work out it definitely wasn't your fault.

Relationship? uhh, I think you've kinda misunderstood a thing, this was the second date. We met at a concert and have seen eachother a few times but never got the oppertunity to spend real quality time toghetter because I was usually working. (one can only lunch break for so long.) Besides those times, this was the second date.

Originally Posted by Dvil

You've missed out on a relationship, but I'd bet money that you've not lost the friendship.

Yep, hopefully this, considering she is still a pretty amazing girl, even if just as friends.

Just that rejection so say it bluntly, sucks. xD

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by Velaryon

4) In the event she does choose me, should I insist on her breaking contact with him?

This first. DO NOT DO THIS. Even if you two do end up together, it'll add a yucky vibe to the whole relationship. I can't begin to go into all the ways that this is a bad plan.

As for the rest of the deal, pull back. Make her do the work. It sounds counterintuitive. But when you think about it, people want what they don't have. Being her puppy dog will just make her think she can mistreat you and you'll still lap it up. Your best hope here is to let her realize that her pick is for real. Saying it out loud is tacky and crass. Just check yourself. She'll then understand that giving up on you means giving up on you.

Everything else requires nothing more than the usual oneitis treatment. Go out, interact with other girls, realize that the world is full of them. You'll be a lot more level headed after you've had at least a mild crush and a few dates with someone new.

[Sholos]

What's that feeling when you want to see someone but still have a whole day until your scheduled meet time and you know that's going to be too short because you're only going to have an hour, maybe two, with them?

[Heliomance]

Infatuation. Don't worry, it's perfectly normal.

[Sholos]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Infatuation. Don't worry, it's perfectly normal.

Right. Coupled with my not being naturally patient is making today annoying...