Just a heads-up, guys, as indicated in my signature I'm in the area that just got clobbered by Hurricane Sandy - I'm safe, but I don't have power or Internet back at home yet, and don't expect to have it back for another few days. There are a few local places with Internet but they're overwhelmed and the connections tend to be really bad. Thus, posting will be sporadic (although posts can be long, as I can write them offline and post them when I get a chance): sorry, but it's unavoidable.
(I'm still waiting for a response from Child or Aya in the IC, so I won't be posting there now anyway, but if a response does appear, I may not be able to reply for a while.)
Discussion on the Investigation stuff is in the spoilerblock, all should feel free to read, I'm just putting it there to clutter up the thread less.
Spoiler
How I understand MoSM or mundane Investigation/Socialize vs RDs, from what's been said:
-There are essentially two target difficulties. One is just the usual (Manip+Socialize)/2 for the character (no RD penalty). If this is failed, you get nothing. If this is passed, you discern the motivations/emotions/etc consistent with the RD.
-The second is against the RD-augmented defense, that is, the character's (Manip+Socialize+3)/2. If the investigator is rolling Perception+Investigation/Socialize they also take a -3 internal penalty (these +3/-3 bonuses/penalties are the effect of the RD). If this second, higher difficulty is also passed, you get some information about the truth behind the RD.
However, as industrious says, MoSM gives basic motivations, emphasis on basic, and the usual baseline result from the mundane roll is dominant-emotion+context-in-the-scene (or to tell that a statement was a lie or omitted significant information).
industrious, is that correct, or am I still misunderstanding?
FWIW, as the one who's been using Investigation to read people, I would also prefer that people be able to use Excellencies etc to raise Manipulation+Socialize in defense - it's a difficulty, yes, but it's a difficulty set by a static value (Ability+Attribute/2), and you can raise those static values with Excellencies. Reading the sidebar on p.185 it seems rather clear that DV and MDV are just examples, not the be-all and end-all of "unrolled activities that can be enhanced by Charms". I don't actually see why a Socialize/Manipulation/appropriate-Yozi Excellency wouldn't momentarily raise your effective Manipulation+Socialize, and hence modify the difficulty of the Perception+Investigation/Socialize roll - if I'm missing a subtlety in the rules, can you explain it? (that's not a rhetorical question)
From p.185 of the core book:
Aside from the RAW, lying or concealing your intentions seems like something you should be able to actively enhance, to me. If you can use Excellencies to detect lies but not to hide them, that seems asymmetric in a bad way: in the Exalted-investigator-vs-Exalted-master-of-deception scenario, with equal dicepools, both of them possessing Socialize Excellencies but no other relevant charms, it bugs me if the result is "investigator always wins because master-of-deception can't actually use their magic to lie better".
That said, I might point out that in this case it's not really Exalted-investigator-vs-Exalted-master-of-deception (that was Orchid vs Chimes, with the advantage of power and probably Attributes/Abilities mostly on Chimes' side, and while Orchid certainly picked up some very useful information, I would not score that encounter as a clean win for her). The only reason the base RD-enhanced difficulty is as low as 3, and thus in reach of MoSM, is that Child is bad at lying; his one dot of Socialize is just canceling out the fact that, with Manipulation 1, he is an unusually honest person.
The RD is taking him from difficulty 1, i.e. "an Exalt with completely average Perception and no dots in relevant Abilities has about a 50-50 chance of figuring out his feelings and their meaning in the context of the scene", to difficulty 3 with a -3 internal penalty, i.e. "that person needs a 9-dice pool or other Charms to get the same effect". That is not a trivial difference; the Destiny's giving Child an enormous leg up, taking his before-Charms-baseline from 'open book to just about anyone' to 'open book to someone who's both very perceptive and trained in reading people'. Or, of course, 'basic intentions are discernible to a Lawgiver using a Socialize charm' (and as industrious said, basic means basic). Orchid doesn't have a 9-die pool for this, incidentally, she just happened to roll well above average - and then MoSM bypasses the usual dicepool.
As I said above, I would prefer the use of Excellencies (or other die/sux-adders) to raise Manip+Socialize to be valid here, and I'm not sure why they wouldn't be. But without the assistance of Charms, people with Manipulation 1 and Socialize 1 should not be relying heavily on misdirection. (If Child had Socialize 3, or Manipulation 3 - if he had any specialist training in lying, or a natural inclination toward it - the Resplendency-enhanced difficulty would be 4, and MoSM would be returning zilch.)
Tavar, you're saying that RDs are "useless" because a Sidereal who's really bad at lying can't automatically deceive Solar Socialize purely by virtue of being under a Destiny, without using any other powers. But it's not that "a character" can't hide anything, it's that your extremely-honest-and-straightforward Manipulation 1 character has trouble hiding things.
That said, as I said above, I do hope that Excellencies and die-adders are applicable when people are trying to lie.
(Just a note in case the problem is that this seems one-sided - there are a bunch of ways people can figure out Orchid's secret. Charms that detect the magical materials will reveal the orichalcum armor hidden under her coat - if she's confronted with this, she has an excuse, but it can arouse suspicion. There are a number of DB charms that have clauses she is unaware of - like the fact that Revelation of Associates Hunch doesn't work on Celestial Exalts - and so the chances are pretty good that at some point she'll claim that X information came from Y charm, when Y charm is completely incapable of doing that. For someone familiar with the structure of the DB charm trees, there are capabilities she should have (that are prereqs for Charms she claims to have) that she doesn't possess. Chimes might out her - she's actually worried he's pissed off enough about her probing re Deathknights that he's going to drop an anonymous tip to the Cleansing. Given the number of wards we've already seen in this game, she might walk straight through a ward against the Dragon-Blooded without realizing it's there, or bump into a ward against Solars. The Sidereal who met her in Thorns - whoever that is - might recognize her. Child is probably already aware of her sister, since he's on the Convention on Thorns. And then there's always the traditional method, getting sufficiently Essence-stressed that she has to tap into Peripheral.
If all else fails, at some point she'll probably feel guilty about lying to friends/allies, and spill the beans. But there are a lot of ways people could trap her in a lie before then (which would probably cause her to gain limit, as well). Any way, it'll be interesting RP.)
No worries. Most of my family lives in the area, too. I understand perfectly.
Well, first off, it's either an internal penalty, or bonus dice, so successes doesn't come into it. Also, the rules are somewhat tricky: you get bonus dice to rolls to convince others of the RD truth, and others take a penalty on rolls to see through. Nothing about difficulties.
So, it's only a -3 internal penalty, so a simple stunt or excellency would be sufficient.
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
@industrious: hope your family members are all okay!
@Maugan: (others should feel free to read too, just spoilering for organization)
Spoiler
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Originally Posted by Maugan Ra
Orchid is, in short, utterly terrible at everything a Wood Aspect is supposed to be instinctively good at, while very good at a variety of things that would be quite unusual for what she claims to be.
Yup! Orchid is a terrible Wood Aspect - for good reason, because she developed her skills by working in synergy with one If Zhou brings this up, her explanation is that she's outcaste, her family isn't Dragon-Blooded and she wasn't expecting - or trained for - Exaltation. And she Exalted very late.
(Note, though, that she doesn't practice her archery publicly. She wouldn't have left the city with Zhou, re testing wilderness survival. She avoids situations where she would be expected to do things Wood Aspects should be good at, because she knows she's weak in those areas. But definitely the training accident idea could work, to demonstrate that she's terrible at Medicine - and I think you could tell that she's very good at Presence, just from interacting with her, even though I haven't rolled it yet in this game. This is certainly a handle on what she really is, but it's an issue she's aware of, and so it's not as obvious as you might think.)
That said, if Zhou starts digging into her family background, he'll probably run into inconsistencies and/or stonewalling. With most people she drops hints about a messy scandal* and steers the conversation elsewhere. But if someone were to be rude enough to dig into apparently-painful memories, her cover story is not especially well supported. As we've been discussing, if she doesn't or can't apply an Excellency, you just gotta roll 4+ on Perception+Socialize
*The usual thing when neither mother nor mother's husband has any recorded Dragon-Blooded ancestry and then a kid Exalts - especially when there's an inheritance at stake.
There's a second-order cover story where she admits that she grew up in Thorns, but she really doesn't like sharing that information around, because then there's a path of connections that someone with sufficient motivation and Realm contacts could potentially follow to her sister (through her Guild contact, who got them both out of Thorns). That said, she does have a buried Thorns accent, and she allowed it to become more prominent when she was talking to Chimes (to try to explain to him why she was so insistent re deathknights), so that's another potential loose end that Zhou (or Skandi or Child) could get a hold on.
Her abilities are, so far, at least broadly consistent with:
-Wood Aspect who favors Linguistics and Investigation and put all her starting Charm picks into those two fields. (Which is very unusual, but not impossible.)
-Who also has Melee 5 and a 3-dot specialty in Swords, but no magic supporting it. (She doesn't have any Melee charms, except the Excellency, and she knows enough not to go all-out with Solar Excellencies.)
-Who has a reputation of 'local expert on Anathema', and based on the evidence to hand, probably got that reputation by having Lunar contacts.
(Although she seemed to believe that she could reliably tell whether or not Chimes was lying. Which if you know details of how Falsehood Unearthing Attitude works, is a bit weird - if she was relying on that Charm, it suggests that her Essence is a lot higher than you'd initially guess, since FUA fails on people with equal or higher Essence. And if she wasn't relying on that Charm she'd have to be very confident about her Excellency-backed Perception+Investigation roll.
Unfortunately, while Orchid knows broadly what a lot of DB charms do, she tends to overestimate how powerful their Charms are - because she's assuming they're about as powerful as Solar Charms - and she misses these little caveats, because who would have told her? The only DB she's talked about charms with in detail is her sister, and her sister is a Wood Aspect who doesn't favor Investigation - so she knows what kind of capabilities her fellow Immaculates have, but not all the ways in which they can fail.)
Just as a note so you don't have to read the Linguistics tree, for the one other possible flaw in her fake DB charmset: Orchid provides magical encryption services for Nexus merchants and nobles, and while not exactly advertised publicly, this is well known in certain social circles. To do this with DB charms requires Cipher Missive, which has a prerequisite of Language-Learning Ritual. Orchid does not know Language-Learning Ritual or any analogue.
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And now she's been displaying uncanny knowledge of other Exalt types and gleaning insight into other people's characters far beyond what Dragon-Blooded investigative or linguistics charms should be able to discern (the revelation about how Lunars feel regarding Sidereals is a big one, as it's basically outright mind reading that no amount of mundane investigation short of outright asking one should be able to reveal).
Well, yeah, she also knew Skandi's name. I think the most obvious conclusion to draw is not "she's using bizarre unknown magics", it's "she talks to Lunars", especially as she's meant to be an expert on the Anathema (she does have a Silver Pact contact, and that's where she got Skandi's name and a major piece of evidence for her Lunars-don't-like-Sidereals claim). Backgrounds are useful, and she's an established Nexian information-broker.
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He's not quite sure what is going on here, or what Orchid actually is, but there are remarkably few remaining options...
But I know Wind-Carried Words Technique! Don't I get any bonus DB points for that? (I'm hoping that it's not common knowledge that Deceivers can learn everybody's Charms, because... honestly, finding teachers is usually a problem. I'm sure Sids will know, and probably experienced Immaculates, but for most people "can use DB charms" is reasonably strong evidence that the person is in fact DB.)
I wonder if Zhou's seen her jade grand daiklave... she doesn't usually bring it out for sparring, because it's a grand daiklave, but given a skilled Fire Aspect sparring partner, she might have. And she's fast enough with it that it's obviously fully attuned. Do you have a preference?
(The jade grand daiklave is another clue to Thorns; all the colors of the jade look darker than usual, as if shadows have infused it. If Zhou had asked about it, she would have told him it came from a shadowland, and then tried to change the subject. Maybe better to play this out in-game?)
One other possibility for "familiar with the Anathema, high-level Guild contacts, trades for information, much better at Linguistics and Investigation than you'd expect for her Aspect, and comfortable with Immaculate doctrine even though she claims not to believe in it anymore" is "Hi, I'm your friendly local All-Seeing Eye agent". I suspect Solar would actually be better from Zhou's perspective
That said, I don't mind at all if Zhou - or someone else - jumps to the Solar conclusion and confronts her with it (Limity goodness!), but it might also be interesting for him to jump to a conclusion that while supported by the evidence, and meriting a confrontation, was not actually the (whole) truth Always your call, though.
(If one of the Celestials calls her on being too competent for a Dragon-Blood, she'll probably accuse them of underestimating Terrestrials and being defensive about the superior power of their Exaltations. That righteous indignation is a lot harder to pull off if it's Zhou saying "No Dragon-Blood should be able to do that", though.)
I'm also fine with Zhou being able to pick this up relatively easily, when nobody has for ten years, because:
-She avoids Dynasts like the plague and Zhou is the first Lookshyan she's interacted with closely; the other DBs she's encountered have been outcastes, and so they're generally not up on all the fiddly little details of their charmset either. (I figure Lookshyan officers probably get some training in how their Exalted soldiers' abilities are going to work.)
-Until fairly recently she was also avoiding outcastes; she's gotten more confident in the last year or so.
-Zhou is a sufficiently enticing potential ally for her that she's being way more open about sharing information with him than she has been with anyone who didn't already know she was a Solar.
@Tavar: yeah, I was assuming the +3 dice from the RD applied to the Manip+Socialize pool, in addition to the -3 internal penalty on the Perception+Investigation/Socialize roll. (I'm still regarding the Manip+Socialize/2 as a static value that sets the difficulty for someone else's roll; I think you should be able to boost it with Excellencies. Note that Lying is explicitly listed as a valid Socialize specialty, and this is presumably where it would factor in, adding the specialty dots to the Manip+Socialize pool.)
__________________ PCs:
Spoiler
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Spoiler
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Originally Posted by The_Snark
I must not argue on the Internet.
Internet argument is the mind-killer.
It is the little death that brings total aggravation.
I will face my annoyance.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
When it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to see its path.
Where the irritation has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
The thing is, of course, that Dragon-Bloods are much more influenced by their aspect than other Exalted types are by their castes. It's apparently a common joke/observation that the DBs are almost five separate species. They find themselves drawn towards behaviors and themes embodied by their aspects, which is generally how other Dragon Blooded can make a guess as to their aspect without seeing so much as a single charm.
Fire aspects, as an example, are passionate and vibrant, and always in motion. Fire does not stay still, and if it isn't burning, then it is dead. Hence why the Fire aspect has Presence, Socialise, Dodge, Melee and Athletics as its caste abilities, and why Zhou has ratings of 5 in most of them. It's not just what he's good at, it's what everything in his blood calls him to do. For a Dragon-Blood to deliberately specialise in things outside of their aspect indicates that they can feel the calling of their blood and deliberately turn aside from it in order to embrace a harder road - something that makes no sense to Zhou. Might also come up in game.
(Incidentally, I'm working on the assumption that Zhou can tell Orchid isn't very good at Archery just by looking at her. I'm personally trained with rifles, and am actually quite good with them, and if I see someone else pick up a rifle I can probably tell whether they have any idea what they're doing with it. Behavioral cues, and you did say that Orchid carries a bow sometimes to enhance her disguise with people's assumptions).
Fair point on survival, though. That and Performance are things Zhou mentally tags with a question mark, since he hasn't seen enough to judge her skills in those areas.
As a not-so-random aside, in case people were wondering how I justify Zhou putting together such an in-depth analysis on Orchid... from his perspective, she's a beautiful and highly charismatic woman with similar interests to his own, and is apparently skilled enough to maintain a position as an information broker of some repute in Nexus of all places. And judging by appearance, it seems she's also an Exalt of good breeding. Figure it out...
(Some preference towards 'yes' on the Grand Daiklaive question. If only because I love the mental image of Zhou's reaction when faced with this five-foot tall woman swinging around a sword that's about the same size as she is.)
__________________
"Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
The thing is, of course, that Dragon-Bloods are much more influenced by their aspect than other Exalted types are by their castes. It's apparently a common joke/observation that the DBs are almost five separate species. They find themselves drawn towards behaviors and themes embodied by their aspects, which is generally how other Dragon Blooded can make a guess as to their aspect without seeing so much as a single charm.
Fire aspects, as an example, are passionate and vibrant, and always in motion. Fire does not stay still, and if it isn't burning, then it is dead. Hence why the Fire aspect has Presence, Socialise, Dodge, Melee and Athletics as its caste abilities, and why Zhou has ratings of 5 in most of them. It's not just what he's good at, it's what everything in his blood calls him to do. For a Dragon-Blood to deliberately specialise in things outside of their aspect indicates that they can feel the calling of their blood and deliberately turn aside from it in order to embrace a harder road - something that makes no sense to Zhou. Might also come up in game.
Yup. Hmm. Her demeanor isn't so distinct from the typical Wood Aspect one, at least when she's not wearing the social mask - "crave experience and sensation", and she's perpetually curious, and has traveled over a fairly large portion of the East. Always seeking understanding - "Those who blunder through life without truly understanding its myriad opportunities for new lessons are fools." And then there's this: "As a gardener prunes and cultivates his gardens to maximize its health, beauty and harvests, so too do the Exalted of Wood seek to improve their society, supporting those who help society grow in a pattern they find pleasing and weeding out those who might corrupt their design." So Wood Aspect socialite is certainly a possibility - they'd just tend to use Performance more.
But I take your point about the charmset; she clearly is doing something rather unnatural to her (apparent) Aspect. (If nothing else, on current evidence she's paying the out-of-aspect surcharge on every single Charm.)
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(Incidentally, I'm working on the assumption that Zhou can tell Orchid isn't very good at Archery just by looking at her. I'm personally trained with rifles, and am actually quite good with them, and if I see someone else pick up a rifle I can probably tell whether they have any idea what they're doing with it. Behavioral cues, and you did say that Orchid carries a bow sometimes to enhance her disguise with people's assumptions).
Okay, fair point. I have absolutely no training in firearms, I'll take your word for it. And Orchid is carrying a bow right now, actually, as well as a sword and a knife (but her grand daiklave is hidden in Elsewhere).
It's a well-made bow. She's not completely incompetent with it, just because she's Exalted - so doesn't take the -2 penalty for untrained Abilities - and has Dexterity 5. But sure, I'm happy to accept that Zhou can take a look at the way she holds it, and realize that she has no particular skill with it. Actually, he's sparred with her - he would probably also realize that the calluses on her hands are characteristic of a swordswoman, not an archer, so yeah, that's an entirely reasonable catch on a couple of levels.
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As a not-so-random aside, in case people were wondering how I justify Zhou putting together such an in-depth analysis on Orchid... from his perspective, she's a beautiful and highly charismatic woman with similar interests to his own, and is apparently skilled enough to maintain a position as an information broker of some repute in Nexus of all places. And judging by appearance, it seems she's also an Exalt of good breeding. Figure it out...
Awww.
From Orchid's perspective, Zhou is the first Dragon-Blood other than her sister who she thinks might react to the truth with something other than "ANATHEMA!" If he doesn't figure it out on his own, the chances are probably good she'll confess to him privately, especially if she realizes his thoughts might be going in that direction.
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(Some preference towards 'yes' on the Grand Daiklaive question. If only because I love the mental image of Zhou's reaction when faced with this five-foot tall woman swinging around a sword that's about the same size as she is.)
'yes' he's seen it already, or introduce him to it in-game so you can describe said reaction? I'm fine either way, your call. And it's rather larger, actually, grand daiklaves are typically six feet long. If she eventually learns Solar extra action Melee charms I'm imagining a whirring whirlwind of slicy death where it's not actually obvious where the center of gravity is
(I am looking forward to opening her coat, reaching into a discreet pocket with both hands, and pulling out a grand daiklave Sadly, the "Why yes, that is a grand daiklave in my pocket" line doesn't work quite so well for female characters )
__________________ PCs:
Spoiler
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Snark
I must not argue on the Internet.
Internet argument is the mind-killer.
It is the little death that brings total aggravation.
I will face my annoyance.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
When it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to see its path.
Where the irritation has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Heh. It probably makes more sense that they've never faced each other with their Daiklaives before. Primarily because two Exalts don't go against each other with weapons like that in a friendly practice match - the potential for something to go wrong is too damn high.
I'm still trying to work out how Zhou will react when the truth eventually comes out (be it through logical deductions, or us being attacked by something sufficiently nasty that going all-out becomes unavoidable). It'll probably depend on exact circumstances.
__________________
"Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
Also, I'm not too concerned about someone with little lying power being beaten. I am concerned that I can't use my powers to lie better, and that the best, most lying non-elder Sidereal would be easily beaten by any supernatural, and could be challenged by a mortal, with no recourse.
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
Excellencies can enhance static values like DVs and MDVs, though. Says it right there in the excellency rules. Likewise, stunts that help describe how you're hiding information. Then again, I think industrious is using different rules to those my brain is supplying.
In any case, go, respond! Stop leaving us hanging in suspense!
__________________
"Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
Also, I'm not too concerned about someone with little lying power being beaten. I am concerned that I can't use my powers to lie better, and that the best, most lying non-elder Sidereal would be easily beaten by any supernatural, and could be challenged by a mortal, with no recourse.
Let's see.
Manip+Socialize+Lying Speciality=13/2 = 7 +3 effective difficulty due to RD = difficulty 10.
Assume a Perception+Investigation+Sherlock Scan Specialty=13 dice (average of 7).
Hurm. Adding 6 dice via Charms when the stakes are high is simple enough.
Changing my ruling so that you can use Charms to upgrade ability to lie.
Excellencies can enhance static values like DVs and MDVs, though. Says it right there in the excellency rules. Likewise, stunts that help describe how you're hiding information. Then again, I think industrious is using different rules to those my brain is supplying.
...
Have you been paying attention to the previous discussion? Until the post below yours, the value wasn't a static value, it was a difficulty, thus it couldn't be enhanced. Hell, it was directly stated to be not enhanced that stuff!
Also, Industrious, your calculation would be incorrect. Since it's a difficulty, it wouldn't be modified by the +3, while the opponents roll would be. So it would end up as the following:
Manip+Socialize+Lying Speciality=13/2 = 7
Assume a Perception+Investigation+Sherlock Scan Specialty-3 for RD=10 dice (average of 5).
Even if the modifier did happen, it would still be divided by 0, which would result in Manip+Socialize+Lying Speciality+3 RD=16/2 = 8.
Remember, these are dice, not successes(as I have said many, many, many times before)!
__________________
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
Have you been paying attention to the previous discussion? Until the post below yours, the value wasn't a static value, it was a difficulty, thus it couldn't be enhanced.
It would probably make more sense if it were difficulty 1, with an external penalty of (target's Manipulate+Socialize, divided by 2) if they're trying to hide their motives. I actually thought this was how the rules worked until I looked it up; I suspect this would've gotten errata if it weren't a small subsystem hiding in a part of the rules the errata team hasn't paid much attention to.
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Changing my ruling so that you can use Charms to upgrade ability to lie.
/me approves this message. It's good for both sides to be able to use their nifty powers.
(I presume this also means the +3 dice from the Destiny would add to the Manip+Socialize pool, as I've been adding them in these various calculations. If this is correct, then Tavar, while it's +3 dice to you -3 dice to them - there are no successes involved - it's still similar to a 3-sux advantage.)
Tavar (or anyone else who knows), can you tell me where in the rules it says that difficulties depending on Attribute+Ability would not be modified by things that add to that Attribute/Ability? I don't really see where you're getting this - the rules explicitly say you can enhance unrolled uses of an Attribute/Ability with Excellencies - and I would like to know. (If you were just basing it on industrious' earlier ruling, now changed, then I withdraw the question.)
Agree The_Snark, that's how I thought it worked too (as previously mentioned, a couple of times), before I read the rules.
I guess the one issue with that approach would be that since the (Manip+Socialize)/2-round-up has a minimum value of 1, getting one sux on Perception+Investigation doesn't ever let you read anyone, which seems odd. If it was round-down, or the usual round-down-for-mortals-up-for-Exalts, I wouldn't mind houseruling it to work this way. (Although it does mean that stuff to negate external penalties will be very effective, and penalty-negators don't usually have dice caps, so this has the potential to swing things back to the investigator's side once Charms are in play.)
Now can Aya or Child please say something in the IC? Pretty please? It's not like this is even immediately relevant here, unless I'm missing something - Child's not wearing the Resplendency anymore, the MoSM-read I'd get from Aya is completely innocuous (oh look, she's keeping an eye on the house, what a surprise), and if Child's about to lie, my Perception+Investigation rating and his Manipulation+Socialize rating are both completely irrelevant (well, unless he has a perfect-lying charm/ability to force a roll-off), as I still have Judge's Ear Technique active.
__________________ PCs:
Spoiler
Word:
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Snark
I must not argue on the Internet.
Internet argument is the mind-killer.
It is the little death that brings total aggravation.
I will face my annoyance.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
When it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to see its path.
Where the irritation has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
I guess the one issue with that approach would be that since the (Manip+Socialize)/2-round-up has a minimum value of 1, getting one sux on Perception+Investigation doesn't ever let you read anyone, which seems odd. If it was round-down, or the usual round-down-for-mortals-up-for-Exalts, I wouldn't mind houseruling it to work this way. (Although it does mean that stuff to negate external penalties will be very effective, and penalty-negators don't usually have dice caps, so this has the potential to swing things back to the investigator's side once Charms are in play.)
Yeah, that is a little weird. Mind you, you only take that penalty if the person is trying to hide their motives, so 1 success is still good in innocuous situations.
As for penalty-negators, that's true, but the only relevant ones I can find are Evidence-Discerning Method and Understanding the Court, both of which require you to succeed on a similar roll before you gain the effects. Both have hefty costs; Evidence-Discerning Method only works on 1 person and costs Willpower, while Understanding the Court requires you to commit 20(!) motes. At that price, these Charms should be good.
(Also, no wonder I thought the Manip+Socialize pool applied as an external penalty—that's how most Solar Investigation Charms work.)
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Last edited by The_Snark : 11-01-2012 at 07:22 PM.
No, it's a new scene, due to Chimes leaving, and the appearance of Child (as opposed to The Soldier).
Feel free to put Judge's Ear back up, of course.
Tavar: But you get +3 dice to your pool due to acting in-character. Provided your lie is "I'm just Joe Schmoe (name of Resplendant Destiny)," anyway.
Okies, no worries - I was considering it a continuation of the same conversation, but that's fine. Can you let me know when scenes end, if I have scenelong effects active?
Orchid would reactivate Judge's Ear Technique as soon as the new scene begins. It's pretty clear people are keeping secrets here.
(I'll ask about Essence tracking if it matters, but if you're answering questions anyway, roughly how long were we talking / hanging out on the rooftop, after Orchid finished gathering clues?)
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@The_Snark: yeah, the point that it would work when people aren't trying to hide things occurred to me after I left my wifi hotspot - however, it would still mean that picking up on someone lying would always require at least two successes (since presumably if they're lying, they're trying to hide it). This could be fixed easily enough by using normal rounding rules, though, so mortals round down (i.e. like the rest of Solar Investigation) - wouldn't change anything for Exalted targets, but telling that a Manipulation-1 mortal was lying would only be difficulty 1. It doesn't matter very much in any case, but I like there to be some difference between rolling 0 and 1 successes.
Regarding that mechanic (subtract the relevant defense as an external penalty), Solar Socialize used to use it everywhere too, but with MDV - then Wise-Eyed Courtier Method (and consequently Wyld Revelry Approach) got errata'ed to go against MDV like a normal social attack, rather than subtracting it as an external penalty. (I could've sworn Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe got the same errata, since it works in exactly the same way in that regard, but apparently I was wrong.) I thought I saw a discussion somewhere that indicated that this was the reason - things that characterize DVs as penalties have unfortunate interactions when someone writes a "negate penalties" charm, and for the same reason Salty Dog Method now has a note saying "no, contrary to the original text, DVs are not penalties!" - but I might be misremembering.
*shrugs* I guess my preference is to use the rules as written, but with industrious' rulings that you can use die-adder Charms on defense as well as attack, and stuff that would usually add to your Manipulation+Socialize adds to the (Manip+Socialize)/2 value. With those clarifications, there's no obvious asymmetry between defender and attacker, it puts MoSM at a nice point where it'll give meaningful information on people who don't have above-average manipulation/socialize or other defenses (but other Exalts can stop it by spending a little Essence or by being good at manipulation/socialize), Resplendent Destinies give their full usual benefit (+3 dice to you, -3 dice to them), and I don't see any particularly obvious exploits. I don't really mind if we want to houserule it more (like replacing the resolution mechanism with "difficulty 1, subtract Manip+Socialize/2 as an external penalty"), but I'm fairly comfortable with where we are now, if I've understood the situation correctly.
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Anyway. Are we at a point where we're cool with the Investigation stuff? I know it's a messy mishmash of different resolution mechanisms, but I think we're at a point where we have a clear way to resolve things that doesn't grossly advantage investigators over masters of deception or vice versa, right? *hopeful look*
I do appreciate everyone's help in sorting out how my Charms and Abilities actually work, but I'd rather like to get some progress in the game
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Originally Posted by The_Snark
I must not argue on the Internet.
Internet argument is the mind-killer.
It is the little death that brings total aggravation.
I will face my annoyance.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
When it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to see its path.
Where the irritation has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
In my mind, I associate the Greyfalls accent with something between a rural Southern accent (US accent) and Appalachia. Is that getting through with Burning Waters?
Hmmm. Do I know Isa's identity while with the Cleansing? Because, I just thought of a way to get the party together, and for Child to trust these strangers a bit more.
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He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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Satomi by Elagune
Hmmm. Do I know Isa's identity while with the Cleansing? Because, I just thought of a way to get the party together, and for Child to trust these strangers a bit more.
I have the strangest feeling I know what you're about to say...
*checks thread*
Yuuup. Ah, the unexpected hazards of posing as a Dragon-Blood Well played, Tavar
(Now, what are the odds they have anti-Anathema wards on the Immaculate shrine... hmm. This might also advance the timetable on spilling the beans to Zhou.)
I think she'll let Zhou field that suggestion first, anyway.
__________________ PCs:
Spoiler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Snark
I must not argue on the Internet.
Internet argument is the mind-killer.
It is the little death that brings total aggravation.
I will face my annoyance.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
When it has gone past I will turn my inner eye to see its path.
Where the irritation has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Technically, you don't have to spill. Just say that you've had some run ins with the Realm. Since he's Lookshy(and thus currently in nice diplomatic relations), have him deliver it, while you provide overwatch or something.
But, yeah, Child is largely taking you at your word.
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He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
Zhou would like a compelling reason why he should consent to play messenger-boy for a strange individual who has thus far done nothing but be irritatingly vague and make veiled threats
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"Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
But sir! They aren't Veiled threats. They're Veiled Warnings. Completely different.
And as for why you should do this, well, you're asking him to give up information. Stuff that's pretty dangerous(I mean, he has multiple abyssals after someone in his party). Not exactly asking for nothing. If you don't want him to trust you, you're free to go ask Chimes for everything.
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He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
And yes, Zhou has a massive sinking feeling. You're going to ask him to deal with Immaculates, aren't you? There are reasons he tries to avoid them wherever possible...
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"Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
In my mind, I associate the Greyfalls accent with something between a rural Southern accent (US accent) and Appalachia. Is that getting through with Burning Waters?
The former bit did, at least. Good to know.
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For some reason, it's difficult to get a bead on the young man's thoughts.
You forgot the important part - was he watching her walk away??
(Kidding. Sort of. I'm having too much fun playing the part of girl with a crush, and so is Isa, who is a bit of a method actor even without unnatural mental influence helping.)
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Now. I think we're probably able to have Zhou and Orchid reach the immaculate shrine and contact our other party member. And watch the Lookshyan and the disguised Solar try desperately to avoid any Immaculate Monks for different reasons...
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Re: The Return of the Scarlet Empress OOC
Orchid is a terrible Wood Aspect - for good reason, because she developed her skills by working in synergy with one 
If Zhou brings this up, her explanation is that she's outcaste, her family isn't Dragon-Blooded and she wasn't expecting - or trained for - Exaltation. And she Exalted very late.
Sadly, the "Why yes, that is a grand daiklave in my pocket" line doesn't work quite so well for female characters 
