The Return of the Scarlet Empress OOC

[The_Snark]

After a bit of thought, I think Isa's going to try reading Zhou's thoughts again at this point, see if she can catch how much he knows about her.

Dice roller, I hereby apologize for whatever I did to offend you!

Perception + Awareness: (10d10)[2][5][1][3][4][7][4][7][10][2](45)

Originally Posted by Ifni

Also, Snark, I'm assuming Isa's still monitoring Orchid's thoughts, but with one sux I think you only get bits and pieces - I'm happy to leave it to you to decide what you snag, but I'll probably suggest some things in the post I'm currently writing, with Eris' reaction to the JET read.

Actually, the way I read the hearthstone it is not an ongoing effect: you take a miscellaneous action to roll, and if you succeed you glean some of their thoughts during that action. If you want to keep reading their thoughts, you have to keep taking the action, which is probably a little tricky to do while holding a conversation (and would require a flurry in social combat).

[Ifni]

Ah, whoops. Edit to previous post was Sidereal'ed by our Endings Okay, I'll put the bit about thought-reading in spoilers in case Isa is no longer focusing on Orchid.

Aaaand 4 sux. This could get very interesting, as I believe that's the threshold for reading their detailed thoughts.

EDIT: Dueling Sidereal edits! Okay, removing that bit. And that makes sense, with the hearthstone.

[The_Snark]

Originally Posted by Ifni

One other note, when she was describing what she did in Nexus, that wasn't purely small-talk: the use of "starry-eyed" and the mentions of talking to the right people were purposeful.

I sometimes feel like my Investigate/Socialize ratings aren't high enough for this. I didn't catch Zhou's hint about a "young fellow", either.

Edit- curses! I would've been interested to see those, even if Isa isn't privy to them.

[Ifni]

Originally Posted by The_Snark

I sometimes feel like my Investigate/Socialize ratings aren't high enough for this. I didn't catch Zhou's hint about a "young fellow", either.

Heh. I'll try to put double-meanings in spoilers in future, since our characters are probably better at this than we are (goes for me too!) But it was late, last night...

Here's the intended subtext for the post in question. Feel free to have Isa (or Zhou, although it wasn't really aimed at him) pick up as much or as little of this as you think are appropriate. The short version is basically that she was trying to subtly indicate that she thought Isa was a Sidereal, indicate that she had local expertise/contacts that might be useful and that she was willing to be helpful, and toss in some basic information to support her cover identity / outline her skills.

Spoiler

"On and off, yes. But I've been in town for nearly a full year, this time. It's been nice; given me a chance to settle down a little, establish some contacts. And of late, sparring with Zhou's kept my other skills sufficiently sharpened."
This pretty much just meant what she said - intended implications were just that she has weapon-skills, she travels, and a hint that she's probably Dragon-Blooded (if she's sparring with an Exalt to sharpen her skills). It's a friendly overture, here let me give you some background information.

"I try to offer help to other outcastes where I can. A surprising number show up in Nexus all starry-eyed and hopeful, and it's - not the best city for that. But once you learn your way around, make a few friends, figure out who to talk to... well, it's a fascinating place. You can meet all kinds of interesting people."
-Mention of "other outcastes" was meant to say that she's Dragon-Blooded, with a double meaning on outcasts/outcastes.
-"A surprising number show up in Nexus all starry-eyed" was basically just I know Child's a Sidereal and I think you are too, in a way that they can both pretend meant absolutely nothing.
-"But once you learn your way around, make a few friends, figure out who to talk to... well, it's a fascinating place."
She's advertising her Contacts rating and willingness to use it, more or less
-"You can meet all kinds of interesting people."
Like you! And me! And Zhou! And Child! And the other people we're about to talk to! Shall we help each other out?

EDIT: Hee. So Maren gets Zhou's detailed thoughts during the bit when he's looking at Orchid and saying "They're not all bad"? This could be exciting (and I'm looking forward to seeing his thoughts, too, even though Orchid won't know...)

[Maugan Ra]

Ah yes, four successes does get you a proper set of thoughts. OK, here's pretty much what Zhou was thinking in that last IC post.

OK, so she probably knows what she's getting into. Another Sidereal? One of their contacts? Impossible to tell, but that's something at least. One less worry.

Orchid's good at reading people, it seems. And still willing to pass on her information to me. That's a big risk she's taking, sticking around rather than running. She's gambling pretty much everything on the hope that I won't denounce her as 'anathema', and if she's from Thorns, trusting someone like that can't be easy...

[Ifni]

*slow clap*

Have a cookie, Maugan Or perhaps, on this site, a

(FWIW, Orchid briefly considered running, but she doesn't think it would help at this point. And if Zhou wanted to denounce her, he could have done it at the shrine, where he would have had backup from multiple Exalts for whom killing her is both a religious obligation and the purpose of their jobs. She'd just explained that, in great detail, after all

So yeah, she is wagering her life on the belief that he won't betray her, but he has given her reason for that trust.

Incidentally, adding another scene to the Intimacy-of-Trust counter.)

[Maugan Ra]

Yeah, but denouncing her in front of the shrine would mean calling upon Dynasts for backup.

Also, yay, cookie!

[Ifni]

I'm wondering whether Zhou's going to be more appalled to find out that she's a Dynast (well, by birth) than that she's a Solar

Also, just pointing out again for the benefit of the other players (at least, Child / Skandi / Aya), we're back at the meeting-place now, so you can jump in anytime you please

My last post is basically just introspection, although Isa may hear some of it if she switches her hearthstone over to the Anathema, now that Zhou has inadvertently outed Eris to our friendly local Bronze Faction representative

[The_Snark]

Whether or not Isa is privy to it, the introspection makes a nice counterpoint to the classic Sidereal lifestyle of secrecy and mistrust.

[Maugan Ra]

Originally Posted by Ifni

My last post is basically just introspection, although Isa may hear some of it if she switches her hearthstone over to the Anathema, now that Zhou has inadvertently outed Eris to our friendly local Bronze Faction representative

In Zhou's defense, there was no way he could have known that was a potential outcome here.

That said, the trend so far seems to suggest that hanging around with him is going to get Orchid into a lot of trouble...

[Ifni]

Originally Posted by The_Snark

Whether or not Isa is privy to it, the introspection makes a nice counterpoint to the classic Sidereal lifestyle of secrecy and mistrust.

Thank you! The Nocturnals' existence seems to play with those ideas, as well.

If we ever get to the later parts of RotSE, Eris' long-term goal/hope/Motivation is basically to get Creation's Exalted working together again (head, meet brick wall, I know) - basically taking what she did in Thorns and scaling up. And again it's a very different goal/approach to the way Sidereals have had to operate, since the Usurpation.

It's... going to be very interesting if her early interactions with Child and Isa are positive and then Chimes tells her that the Immaculate doctrines are a Sidereal creation. Right now she doesn't blame anyone for Immaculate beliefs, she assumes they grew up organically out of a mixture of post-Uprising propaganda and old bad memories. Knowing that they were deliberately designed to ensure that what she hopes for (i.e. reconciliation between the Dragon-Blooded and the Solars/Lunars) wouldn't be possible, and that the people who designed them are still around and in power and want her very dead - well, it's going to be interesting.

(Right now, of course, she has no idea what Sidereals actually are, apart from "Celestial Exalted, Lunars are wary of them, but Child seems to be working closely with a Lunar". She's not taking the fact that Isa was undercover in the Cleansing to indicate that Sidereals are sponsoring the Cleansing in some way - you'd want to have agents there, if you were any kind of world-spanning conspiracy / intelligence organization.)

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

In Zhou's defense, there was no way he could have known that was a potential outcome here.

That said, the trend so far seems to suggest that hanging around with him is going to get Orchid into a lot of trouble...

Yup. On both fronts! To be fair, one could also argue that hanging around with Eris is getting Zhou into a lot of trouble But it's all good story! (well, assuming Isa has a reaction other than "sic the Cleansing on the Solar ASAP", but I think she has a reason or two to hold off - I am very interested to see her reaction, though)

And as soon as Child suggested we go pick up Isa, I knew there was a good chance this was going to happen. But hey, Orchid doesn't even know there are mind-reading hearthstones

[Maugan Ra]

Zhou is vaguely aware that mind-reading hearthstones exist, but he doesn't have a massive amount of personal secrets and refuses to put himself on a setting of total paranoid defense over it. Especially as he has no reason to expect them to be around right now.

That said, I'll be interested to see how the whole group conversation plays out. Where the adventure goes, and all that. And, of course, what Isa does.

[The_Snark]

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

In Zhou's defense, there was no way he could have known that was a potential outcome here.

That said, the trend so far seems to suggest that hanging around with him is going to get Orchid into a lot of trouble...

Plus, if he weren't there then Orchid would've been the sole target for the hearthstone, and probably would have given herself away. She doesn't know to guard her thoughts, any more than Isa is aware that Orchid can pick out even the slightest hint of deceit from her words. Fun for everyone!

Originally Posted by Ifni

If we ever get to the later parts of RotSE, Eris' long-term goal/hope/Motivation is basically to get Creation's Exalted working together again (head, meet brick wall, I know). Which again stands in interesting contast to the way Sidereals have had to operate since the breaking of the Mask.

It's... going to be very interesting if her early interactions with Child and Isa are positive and then Chimes tells her that the Immaculate doctrines are a Sidereal creation. Right now she doesn't blame anyone for Immaculate beliefs, she assumes they grew up organically out of a mixture of post-Uprising propaganda and old bad memories. Knowing that they were deliberately designed to ensure that what she hopes for (i.e. reconciliation between the Dragon-Blooded and the Solars/Lunars) wouldn't be possible, and that the people who designed them are still around and in power and want her very dead - well, it's going to be interesting.

Doubly so if Isa and Child decide to tell her the story first; given Eris's lingering doubts about her new station in life, I can't help but wonder how she would react to the Bronze Faction party line (properly presented)...

Originally Posted by Ifni

And as soon as Child suggested we go pick up Isa, I knew there was a good chance this was going to happen. But hey, Orchid doesn't even know there are mind-reading hearthstones

Nobody expects the Sidereal Thought-Inquisition!

Seriously, though, that's definitely that hearthstone's biggest strength. Given that you have to be aware to defend against it, I wonder if the author didn't expect mind-reading magic to be more common than it turned out to be. To my knowledge, there are only a few other ways to do it: Thought-Swiping Distraction (a Sidereal Larceny charm), Analytical Modeling Intuition (a Yozi Charm), a single manse power, and maybe some spirit Charms. The Charms have to overcome Dodge MDV to work, and the manse power can be detected with Occult rolls (and then defended against with MDV or Socialize).

[Maugan Ra]

Originally Posted by The_Snark

Plus, if he weren't there then Orchid would've been the sole target for the hearthstone, and probably would have given herself away.

I've just seen a vision of Zhou's future role in the party, and it is glorious. He can be Mr Distraction - he certainly has a great many different ways to draw attention to himself and away from his comrades. Preferably in as stylish a way as possible.

I might start looking into some of the Integrity charms. Defense from Anathaema Method has an interesting advantage since the errata - it allows you to apply your essence as a bonus to all your defense values when near a celestial exalt, be it ally or enemy. Yay for bodyguard duties!

(Seriously, Dragon-Blooded can actually do quite well on a comparative scale, even next to a Celestial. They don't get perfect effects [though they can get damn close to it], or a great deal of magical flurries, but they do get a lot of buffing abilities and generally more efficient charms.)

Then again, if I keep focusing on my Athletics charms, I get to fly. Decisions, decisions...

[Ifni]

Originally Posted by The_Snark

Plus, if he weren't there then Orchid would've been the sole target for the hearthstone, and probably would have given herself away. She doesn't know to guard her thoughts, any more than Isa is aware that Orchid can pick out even the slightest hint of deceit from her words. Fun for everyone!

Yep! Although I can imagine that the hearthstone + high sux could interact interestingly with someone running Judge's Ear Technique, as they parse each statement and mentally append a true/false tag to it - the person with the hearthstone might well be able to figure out what's going on, given a little time.

(That said, it might have taken Eris a little longer for her to give herself away, because usually she tries to think in-character as Orchid as much as possible - it just makes it easier to play the role. And honestly if she'd been on her own she would've probably tried to slide out of visiting the Immaculate shrine. But this way is fun!)

Doubly so if Isa and Child decide to tell her the story first; given Eris's lingering doubts about her new station in life, I can't help but wonder how she would react to the Bronze Faction party line (properly presented)...

Depends on the presentation, yeah. What is the Bronze Faction party line to Solars that doesn't end in "And that's why you have to die now"?

(That said, if you catch her right after her first Limit Break or possibly a sufficiently nasty past-life flashback, even that probably wouldn't be a hard sell. Insofar as I've thought about her First-Age incarnation, I'm imagining he/she was one of those who the Dragon-Bloods were very enthusiastic about killing - high Conviction + Deliberate Cruelty tend to go that way anyway, and it's a sharp contrast with her present-day Motivation and Intimacies. As a general rule, I try to make life hard for my characters, and it's harder on Eris if her past-life memories tend to reinforce Immaculate dogma (which is the same OOC reason she has Deliberate Cruelty).)

[Maugan Ra]

I'm still of the opinion that Chejop could totally turn the return of the Solars into an advantage. Sure, they're dangerous, but it shouldn't be difficult to turn them against the greater enemies of Creation if you approach them properly. Just be careful to prevent them from forming a solid power bloc that you can't personally influence, and make sure they're tied to you through bonds of gratitude and dependence. And always be ready to have them killed if they look to be going off the deep end.

...actually, that's pretty much a considerable proportion of the Gold Faction, isn't it? Hmm...

[Ifni]

Yeah, I think that's the Gold Faction plan. Also the Sun King Seneschal plan. Oh, and remember to make sure that they get all their information from you, as well as your other points. The usual objection, I think, is that once Solars get to a certain point they start getting very scary very quickly, it's hard to keep control on the information they have access to, and it's difficult to keep them dependent on you / be sure that the conditioning will hold.

I'm not sure what the actual Bronze Faction plan is in canon, apart from playing whack-a-mole as a delaying action while they try to come up with something.

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

I've just seen a vision of Zhou's future role in the party, and it is glorious. He can be Mr Distraction - he certainly has a great many different ways to draw attention to himself and away from his comrades. Preferably in as stylish a way as possible.

I approve this plan

(Also, Zhou has Connections and Backing and those nice social Backgrounds, and people don't point and scream when your caste mark shows up.)

I might start looking into some of the Integrity charms. Defense from Anathaema Method has an interesting advantage since the errata - it allows you to apply your essence as a bonus to all your defense values when near a celestial exalt, be it ally or enemy. Yay for bodyguard duties!

Defense-From-Anathema Method is the best Charm, post-errata. I just really like the fact that the First-Age interpretation is so dramatically different to the post-Usurpation interpretation, even though the function didn't change at all - "this Charm makes Dragon-Blooded better fighters in the presence of Celestials. Whether you use it to fight beside them or against them is up to you..."

[Maugan Ra]

In fairness to the Bronze faction, in canon, everything is presently going right to hell in a very short amount of time. The Scarlet Empress has vanished, throwing the single largest power bloc in creation into turmoil. The Deathlords are on the march, with what is essentially an almost unstoppable force at their disposal (the Underworld belongs to them, basically, which gives them a virtually perfect fortress and infinitely replenishing forces, even before you factor the Abyssals in). The Yozi are up to... something, but they have their own Exalted now, along with millennia to plan and prepare. And, of course, Ignis Divine and the other Incarnae are presently out of action.

All this would be bad enough if there weren't Solars running around and the Sidereals were unified. I like to imagine Chejop is running damage control as best he can while desperately hunting for a solution. Probably while labouring under a constant migraine.

Presently, I'm fairly sure his plan is to work on resolving the succession crisis in the Empire, probably by backing a particular candidate. Then throw everything he has behind rallying the Dragon-Blooded and fighting a war on about five fronts at once. And it would probably work, were it not for, well, the Scarlet Empress herself.

[The_Snark]

Originally Posted by Ifni

Depends on the presentation, yeah. What is the Bronze Faction party line to Solars that doesn't end in "And that's why you have to die now"?

... there, uh, isn't one.

That part tends to be a hard sell.

Mind you, Isa would rephrase it so as not to imply that they're about to fight to the death, on account of not being suicidal. But she's an... interesting case, in that her personal loyalty to Chejop Kejak is stronger than her loyalty to the Bronze Faction cause. Because as you note, they're mostly playing damage control. There is no long-term plan (or rather, the long-term plan is shot to hell already).

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

...actually, that's pretty much a considerable proportion of the Gold Faction, isn't it? Hmm...

Pretty much, yeah, and I think the Bronze Faction consensus is that it's like playing with radioactive fire. Far too many gods, Lunars, demons, etc, know what happened during the Usurpation to keep that knowledge under wraps, and there's just no way you could keep all the Solars under control indefinitely. And by the time you realize that they're turning against you and/or going off the deep end, it's already too late...

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

Then again, if I keep focusing on my Athletics charms, I get to fly. Decisions, decisions...

Exalted truism: there are always more cool Charms available than you have XP for. Always.

[Ifni]

Originally Posted by The_Snark

... there, uh, isn't one.

That part tends to be a hard sell.

Heh. Well, if you figure one out, Eris might well be amenable to listening...

In any case, she'd probably be fairly open to the Bronze party line in the sense that "choosing the Vision of Bronze was reasonable", if she knew the full story of what happened - I can't see her holding a grudge for the Usurpation. (Her First-Age incarnation would hold a grudge, but no merits/flaws means no Throwback with Motivation: Revenge ) But she's not suicidal - and even still half-believing the Immaculate doctrines, if all that her death would do is curse someone else with her Exaltation (within a couple of months, at that), then it's not really a solution to anything, is it?

What she might hold a grudge for - against Isa's mentor, personally, if she knew - is setting up the Immaculate faith so that situations like the one surrounding her own Exaltation are damn near guaranteed. The Immaculate doctrines were very effective in stopping a Solar from building a power-base, there - they also crushed what might have been the best chance the people of Thorns ever had of striking back against the Mask. (In other words, the Immaculate dogma is set up to make it hard for unpredictable Celestial Exaltations, triggered by a horrible status quo, to actually disturb that status quo. And this is probably Working As Intended.)

EDIT: If the Bronze party line Isa gave her was "we're really sorry, but all Solars go insane eventually, and because of the way Exalted gain power with age, we try to eliminate them before they get too strong even if that means killing people while they're still more-or-less sane and doing good things"... hmm. That would be interesting, if she confirmed by JET that they were telling the truth. Horribly depressing for her, but interesting, because her reaction would probably not be denial. (It lines straight up with long-standing fears that she'll become like (certain of) the Abyssals; she's seen the kinds of things they do...)

But she's an... interesting case, in that her personal loyalty to Chejop Kejak is stronger than her loyalty to the Bronze Faction cause. Because as you note, they're mostly playing damage control. There is no long-term plan (or rather, the long-term plan is shot to hell already).

If Eris gets to the point of understanding that... well, she'd like to help figure one out? If Child and Isa tell her the Bronze Faction side of things truthfully (I sometimes feel like the most powerful use of JET is not being able to pick up lies, but to discern that people genuinely believe what they're saying), then she'd have sympathy. She has no real interest in aiming for The High First Age Mark Two; she just wants a world where she can visit her family. (And her automatic response to apparently irreconcilable conflicts of interest is still to try to negotiate a mutually agreeable solution; that's how she ended up as a Solar in the first place. Although she draws the line well before negotiating with Deathlords, and I'm not exactly sure where it is.)

Also, just to say - OOC, I like Chejop! I'm perfectly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, in that he's doing everything in his considerable power to try to save the world (again) while dealing with a truly ridiculous array of threats, half of which are outside fate and thus even more of a headache than usual. And if Isa tells her about him, Eris would probably also be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm just not sure if he has a functional long-term plan at present or if he (and the rest of the Bronze) are still running almost purely in emergency-damage-control mode, and I suspect it's the latter. (And as Maugan says, that's entirely understandable; everything has gone sideways very quickly, especially for people who are accustomed to thinking on timescales of centuries.)

Pretty much, yeah, and I think the Bronze Faction consensus is that it's like playing with radioactive fire. Far too many gods, Lunars, demons, etc, know what happened during the Usurpation to keep that knowledge under wraps, and there's just no way you could keep all the Solars under control indefinitely. And by the time you realize that they're turning against you and/or going off the deep end, it's already too late...

... Eris could, er, Eclipse oath herself to ensure that should she go off the deep end, she would do so with incredible incompetence?

[Maugan Ra]

Originally Posted by Ifni

I approve this plan

(Also, Zhou has Connections and Backing and those nice social Backgrounds, and people don't point and scream when your caste mark shows up.)

Well, they might. If only because Zhou doesn't have a caste mark as such. It's just that if he ends up dipping into peripheral essence, he... well, he catches on fire. And then everything around him also starts to catch on fire. So there might be a few screams.

Originally Posted by Ifni

Defense-From-Anathema Method is the best Charm, post-errata. I just really like the fact that the First-Age interpretation is so dramatically different to the post-Usurpation interpretation, even though the function didn't change at all - "this Charm makes Dragon-Blooded better fighters in the presence of Celestials. Whether you use it to fight beside them or against them is up to you..."

Yup. It's honestly rather how I imagine the Usurpation happening. Especially since the majority of the Solars were all caught inside a single area when it went down, and thanks to a combination of tradition and Serenity manipulation, very few of them would be wearing armour. Oh, sure, they could call weapons to hand from Elsewhere, but armour takes time to don, and that makes all the difference.

Get a veteran brotherhood of Terrestrials to use Dragon Vortex on the banquet hall, with at least one person from every aspect involved. Bam, all the Solars inside are at a -8 or so internal penalty to everything and taking about as many dice of lethal damage every five ticks. The Dragon-Blooded are totally immune to both effects.

Air Aspects make use of Stealth charms to swathe the whole area in fields of magical silence, which prevents any Solar cooperation and (most importantly) makes it much harder for Eclipse-based social attacks to make a difference. Use Linguistics charms to allow the Terrestrial brotherhoods to work together without needing to speak.

Earth Aspects can make use of the Integrity vendetta charms to bolster the soak of all their allies and remove fatigue as an issue. Crucially, it also renders any unnatural mental influence that would work against the vendetta as an unacceptable order, for further reassurance against mind-control charms and the like.

Fire aspects lead the charge and start stabbing everyone inside to death. Safety among Enemies, in particular, is a useful charm, as it can help turn any attacks made by the Solars against their allies. Threshing Floor technique also basically grants a sort of ultimate coordinated attack.

Water aspects are also going to have to be in the thick of the fighting, probably with martial arts. It helps that their elemental effect revolves around forcing struck enemies to delay their next actions - during that time gap, they'll presumably have been struck many damn times.

And Wood aspects form the reserve force, keeping watch over the various exits for anyone who might escape the initial ambush, who might very well be glowing wonderfully brightly as they escape. Archery charms to ideally pincushion the enemy, and Ride and Survival to help run down those who continue fleeing. And, of course, Medicine abilities to help those Dragon-Blooded who inevitably get hurt in the initial fighting anyway.

All this before Sidereal assistance and the constant extra damage from Terrestrial anima flux. I can certainly see how it worked out as a massacre in favour of the Dragon-Blooded.

[Ifni]

I've also heard it proposed that when the initial attack came, most of the Solars there probably assumed that other Solars were responsible (using Dragon-Blooded cannon fodder) - who else would dare, after all? And they knew they hadn't ordered it, so it was probably an opposed faction... and thus they took the opportunity to Do Unto Others Before They Can Do Unto You, and initially focused on taking out their personal enemies in the chaos. Whose allies, then, had a target to blame... quite a few of the casualties at the Calibration Banquet might have been (in the broadest possible sense) friendly fire. We know that Solar suspicion/hubris was at a pretty high level by that point, so I can see this playing a non-negligible role.

(That probably wasn't the case for Eris, though - the one past-life memory fragment I've defined for her was her memory of dying in the Usurpation, at the hands of at least one full circle of Dragon-Blooded. It was very brief, just a momentary flash of image and sound and pain and a few fragments of thought.)

Anyway, on a completely unrelated note, Orchid will just twiddle her fingers outside the door with the armed-and-armored Fire Aspect and the Bronze Faction Sidereal while The_Snark decides whether she's going to give me Limit right this moment (since my break condition is "subjected to severe stress or backed against a wall")

Also, note to self, put Truth Shines Through on Charm wishlist...

[The_Snark]

Originally Posted by Ifni

EDIT: If the Bronze party line Isa gave her was "we're really sorry, but all Solars go insane eventually, and because of the way Exalted gain power with age, we try to eliminate them before they get too strong even if that means killing people while they're still more-or-less sane and doing good things"... hmm. That would be interesting, if she confirmed by JET that they were telling the truth. Horribly depressing for her, but interesting, because her reaction would probably not be denial. (It lines straight up with long-standing fears that she'll become like (certain of) the Abyssals; she's seen the kinds of things they do...)

Something like that. OOC, though, I've always been of the opinion that the Great Curse only made existing problems worse. Regular humans are perfectly capable of being decadent, callous and paranoid when given power; how much worse would it be when your rulers are immortal god-kings, so old and powerful that they've all but forgotten what it's like to be mortal? Beyond sickness and poverty, indifferent to any threat less than a powerful demon or fellow Exalt, capable of wrapping people around their finger with a few words... you hardly need a Great Curse.

(And if you look at the stuff written for the First Age, this is partly borne out. Obviously, part of Desus's problem is that he has Deliberate Cruelty—but the Heirophant, poster boy for Solar hubris and government corruption... his Limit Break is Heart of Tears.)

So Isa's feelings on the Solars will probably reflect this. Of course, her opinions are shaped to a large degree by Chejop's, and I don't know exactly how he feels about the Solars. Obviously they're unsafe, but how much is simple pragmatism (they went bad once, too risky to give them another chance) as opposed to adamant conviction (they always go mad) is an open question.

Anyway, posted. I feel sort of bad not giving more of Isa's thoughts, but as a stylistic thing I generally try to reserve her inner thoughts for when she's alone or not wearing a destiny. Rest assured, you'll get to see more soon...

[Maugan Ra]

Chejop Kejak's written motivation is 'Justify Past Sacrifices', so one suspects he might be somewhat reluctant to change his mind on the policy he's held for so long.

But yeah, the First Age was always going to produce decadence and corruption. The natural social structure that occurs when a few select individuals are so much better than anyone else in the population sees to that.

[Tavar]

Are you within sight of Child, or heading in that direction? I admit I can't fully tell at the moment.

[Ifni]

Tavar, I think we're basically at the door of Emerald's house, unless I grossly misremembered and the meeting place is somewhere else (in which case my apologies and I can edit the relevant post). I suggest that Child either answers the door or steps out of the spot nearby where he's been waiting - for the last few posts we've been writing it as "close enough for other people to come in whenever they like".

Chatter re Bronze Faction in spoiler to make the above easier to see:

Spoiler

Originally Posted by The_Snark

Something like that. OOC, though, I've always been of the opinion that the Great Curse only made existing problems worse. Regular humans are perfectly capable of being decadent, callous and paranoid when given power; how much worse would it be when your rulers are immortal god-kings, so old and powerful that they've all but forgotten what it's like to be mortal? Beyond sickness and poverty, indifferent to any threat less than a powerful demon or fellow Exalt, capable of wrapping people around their finger with a few words... you hardly need a Great Curse.

I agree, actually. Although if this is the party-line, well... then there are a lot of differences between the First Age and the present day. The Solars at the beginning of the First Age had just been victorious commanders in a war, and the hierarchies and expected roles from the war basically stayed around in peacetime; there were probably always a comparable number of Elder Solars to Elder Lunars, and many more of them than Elder Sidereals. There was never really a time when they weren't at the top of the heap.

Every Solar today is a child of the Second Age, which makes that kind of unquestioning unchallenged assumption that you're in charge and it is right rather harder to pull off. (Albeit not impossible given past-life memories or indoctrination, and of course the fact that most Solars now know what it's like to have the existing power structure trying to kill you for breathing introduces its own set of problems.)

One of my favorite possible explanations for the way the Great Curse affected the Solars is that it wasn't so much the direct imposition of madness, but something a little more subtle. Limit Breaks feel really good, at the time - and when they wear off, and you look back, well...

A lot of Solars were probably horrified. I killed someone in a fit of rage? I collapsed in tears while people needed me? I said that? But you can't deny it (at least after the second or third time it happens), so part of their self-definition becomes, "Someone who will do those kinds of things". And because people don't like to think badly of themselves, they justify their own actions, as a defensive mechanism (and assisted, in this case, by a society that tells them You're A Solar And Therefore Awesome By Definition) - he deserved it, she insulted me, what did they expect? And over time, the way they behave in Limit Break becomes (to themselves) normalized and justified. Especially if they see their only friends/peers/equals behaving in similar ways - everyone does it is pretty frequently used to justify behavior that people consider immoral IRL. (Or alternatively there's a depressive spiral where you decide that you're pathetic and just want to hide away from the world / set impossible standards for yourself and self-flagellate more when you don't live up to them.)

If you can persuade someone that deep down they're something they loathe, well, they'll find some way to live with that. (Or they won't live with it, and someone else will get their Exaltation instead.) The coping mechanisms become more of a problem than the actual Limit Breaks, because they're active all the time.

(In this case, just knowing it's external influence does a lot to cut the feedback loop. But nobody does, of course.)

So Isa's feelings on the Solars will probably reflect this. Of course, her opinions are shaped to a large degree by Chejop's, and I don't know exactly how he feels about the Solars. Obviously they're unsafe, but how much is simple pragmatism (they went bad once, too risky to give them another chance) as opposed to adamant conviction (they always go mad) is an open question.

As Maugan says, yeah, I believe his Motivation relates to justifying his past actions (in the First Age, incidentally, it was "Protect Creation and its future through knowledge"). The comic at the end of the corebook has him saying (to Nara-O), "In the end, they'll reveal their true colors for mortal and god alike to see. Their power will grow, as will their hubris, until they once more become the terrors even I shudder to remember."
(Nara-O then brings up the Usurpation and Chejop's personal interest in the Solars not finding out about that. Chejop replies with, "We did what we had to do. I regretted the necessity, but I've never doubted it was necessary.")

But the first of your suggestions might still be consistent with that, and is very consistent with the Vision of Bronze approach (Creation is too important to gamble) - it then leads more easily to arguments about risk/benefit tradeoffs. That is, back in the First Age, the Vision of Bronze was the safe route that ensured the survival of the world, but that's no longer true - there's not an obvious this-will-definitely-work-even-if-it's-painful path, and so any allocation of resources you make is a gamble with the world's fate. Which is probably why the Bronze Faction doesn't have a consensus long-term plan yet.

I'm really looking forward to exploring this IC, now It'll be very interesting to see how it unfolds. And rereading Child's background/motivation, he's been thinking about this for years: the reason he's not Bronze Faction anymore is that he's frustrated they don't have a functional long-term plan. So that should be an interesting dynamic, between him and the Old Man's Shadow...

Anyway, posted. I feel sort of bad not giving more of Isa's thoughts, but as a stylistic thing I generally try to reserve her inner thoughts for when she's alone or not wearing a destiny. Rest assured, you'll get to see more soon...

Looking forward to it

And wow, 3 sux? So far, on 10 dice, Isa has rolled 2/1/4/3... clearly Orchid has some nefarious Solar defense against the Sidereal Thought-Inquisition I believe that's not enough for detailed thoughts; I'll put some fragments in my next post.

EDIT: Actually, hmm, rereading the hearthstone... should I be interpolating between 1 and 4 successes, so 1 gives "individual words" and 4 gives "detailed thoughts" and 3 gives e.g. "phrases rather than words, but skips some things"? Or just using the guidelines for passing the difficulty-1 roll? What do you guys think? I'm fine with it either way.

Tavar et al should not wait for me to post; I don't think I'll be revealing anything that would cause Isa to change her actions. Also, The_Snark, feel free to pick up bits from the last introspection post if you think it would be interesting.

EDIT: Hearthstone says more sux gives more information, so I tried to give something more complete than the individual words you'd get from 1 sux. Happy to edit if you disagree, but hey, it was fun to write regardless

Not trying to delay other people coming in - you should do so whenever! - I just wanted to give Isa some more to chew on

[industrious]

I believe I posted an interlude from Chejop's point of view; some of your discussion re: Bronze Faction might be answered by that, at least in this game.

I'm also enjoying how we've suddenly shifted gears from "action kung-fu movie" to "political intrigue/spy novel" with the addition of our new players. Not to worry; combat is still forthcoming.

[Ifni]

Originally Posted by industrious

I believe I posted an interlude from Chejop's point of view; some of your discussion re: Bronze Faction might be answered by that, at least in this game.

Ooh, do you have a link to the post? I would like to see it. (If it's on the first page or something, I apologize for cluelessness...)

I'm also enjoying how we've suddenly shifted gears from "action kung-fu movie" to "political intrigue/spy novel" with the addition of our new players. Not to worry; combat is still forthcoming.

Ah! Zhou! Your job!

*hides behind the nice Fire Aspect and Sidereals who actually invested Charms in combat abilities*

*appreciates historical irony*

EDIT: And hey, the intrigue / spy novel stuff has managed to get us to a point where the Terrestrial, the BronzeSid and the Solar are all in the same place as the rest of the group, they're all broadly aware of each others' Exaltations, and they're not trying to kill each other. And I at least have been having a great deal of fun (I think that was probably noticeable)

[industrious]

Reposting it here:

Interlude: The Burden of Knowledge

Spoiler

The old adage is that knowledge is power is only half of the equation. Knowledge, coupled with morality, is a chain, a leaden anchor. As more and more information becomes available, actions that may seem terrible become necessary evils; one's innocence and idealism is almost always the first casualty of this realization.

I know this to be true. I know the strange tides on which destiny ebbs and flows. I know that fate sometimes needs a guiding hand. I know how to place the pieces on the board, and I know what has been and what must be. I know the greater game.

I have lived for four thousand, nine hundred, and ninety-nine years, and I know more than any mortal still alive.

There are four others in the room with me. Three of them are furious; one is severely annoyed.

Ayesha and Shepherd are both idealists. They still believe in miracles. They believe that we can do more than merely maintain. In Ayesha's case, she believes that the horrors that I witnessed millenia ago can be avoided, that the God-Kings can be controlled. She does not understand, for she has never seen them as they were. The mightiest of them now is but a child compared to the Solars of old; you cannot control one who believes they own the world. What will she do when they turn on her, and her words, her wisdoms and warnings fall upon deaf ears? She will learn this, soon enough.

Shepherd thinks the problem is one of communication. That if we were to open ourselves and Creation to each other, we could come to accords and agreements. But it won't work. There is too much bad blood between nations and peoples for them to ever agree or sit down together. The Silver Pact despises us; if we ever revealed ourselves, it would be war. We have done far too much in the name of the greater good to ever allow ourselves to be open. The only thing that could unite Creation would be a great and immediate threat to it from outside, and Shepherd would never sacrifice some nations to build others. And such an immediate threat would more than likely mean the end of us all.

Nazri is short-sighted. He talks of abandoning factional disputes in favor of guiding fate. But he is either a fool or does not wish to realize that fate is disrupted with every action a Solar takes. He seeks to swab the decks of sandships while storms rage around him.

Righteous Tsunami is annoyed that I did not tell her of the Cleansing before it happened. She views it as retaliation for how she has treated factions in the West. She believes I no longer trust her. She is wrong.

I've never trusted anyone.

The four speak in turn, blaming me for the disruptions the Cleansing has caused their Conventions. They tell me how I have pushed my agenda too far, that investigations are ongoing, that I am in danger of losing my position among them. Empty threats. The investigations will find no link between myself and the Cleansing.

Because there is no link. The Cleansing was not my plan, though I am glad that it happened. The lowly mortal who proposed it performed well enough to become a Sun Resplendant; such change and effectiveness in the Realm I have not seen for many years. Of course, I am suspicious of this sudden good fortune. I have investigations of my own regarding the Cleansing. Regarding this Alcibiades.

But I do not tell any of them that the Cleansing was beyond my control. I let them think that it was a scheme of mine. Because if they were to know otherwise...who knows how they would feel obliged to act?

[Ifni]

Ah, yes, I remember reading that now. Thanks, industrious. I am a fan of Chejop Kejak.