Simple Q&A D&D 4e Thread II: Electric Boogaloo

[Dimers]

Originally Posted by Yakk

Technically not. There is nothing in the feat that says that the dagger actually leaves the monk's hand at any point.

Originally Posted by DDI

Benefit: When you use your Flurry of Blows power, you can add a single target within 5 squares of you by throwing a dagger or a shuriken that you have in hand. Doing so doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.

The word "throw" might not be as rigorously defined as other terms in 4e are, but that's not a reason to assume it has no mechanical meaning. I agree thoroughly with your other points, though.

[Alejandro]

Q 416

Something of a followup to my prior Change Self question... Can the ritual Silent Image be used to create a visual-only disguise on someone, as long as all involved understand that the disguise is visual only and will not have any tactile or audio component (so that someone wearing plate armor will still make plate armor sounds, even if the illusion makes them look like someone wearing leathers?) Basically, I am a 6th lvl wizard that needs to magically make my party look like someone other than who we are, for a short time, to avoid notice.

[Ashdate]

Originally Posted by Alejandro

Q 416

Something of a followup to my prior Change Self question... Can the ritual Silent Image be used to create a visual-only disguise on someone, as long as all involved understand that the disguise is visual only and will not have any tactile or audio component (so that someone wearing plate armor will still make plate armor sounds, even if the illusion makes them look like someone wearing leathers?) Basically, I am a 6th lvl wizard that needs to magically make my party look like someone other than who we are, for a short time, to avoid notice.

A 416: This is honestly going to be your DMs call. Silent Image doesn't specify any limitations in regard to, for example, area of effect and whether the image can "move". By RAW, you can probably get away with it. But the intent of the spell is likely to be something much weaker.

There are rituals ("Hallucinatory Item", lvl 6, and "Hallucinatory Creature", lvl 12) that are clearly supposed to be more powerful illusions given their higher level. There is also "Change Self" (a level 6 ritual) that does what you want it to do (albeit it can't be used on another creature).

Regardless, the power does not suggest you can change the appearance of another person with it (armor or no). Given that there are other spells at higher levels that can do that, I believe the intent is that there might be an image projected, but at best, someone would stand inside of it, not carry it around with them (although potentially leading to hilarious comic effect).

It's your DM's call ultimately, but I would say that Silent Image can't do what you want it to do.

[Alejandro]

Originally Posted by Ashdate

A 416: This is honestly going to be your DMs call. Silent Image doesn't specify any limitations in regard to, for example, area of effect and whether the image can "move". By RAW, you can probably get away with it. But the intent of the spell is likely to be something much weaker.

There are rituals ("Hallucinatory Item", lvl 6, and "Hallucinatory Creature", lvl 12) that are clearly supposed to be more powerful illusions given their higher level. There is also "Change Self" (a level 6 ritual) that does what you want it to do (albeit it can't be used on another creature).

Regardless, the power does not suggest you can change the appearance of another person with it (armor or no). Given that there are other spells at higher levels that can do that, I believe the intent is that there might be an image projected, but at best, someone would stand inside of it, not carry it around with them (although potentially leading to hilarious comic effect).

It's your DM's call ultimately, but I would say that Silent Image can't do what you want it to do.

Thank you for the insights. I would point out that the ritual description does include the idea of using it to make an illusion of a fire, and a fire that does not move at all would be a completely worthless illusion.

[Ashdate]

Originally Posted by Alejandro

Thank you for the insights. I would point out that the ritual description does include the idea of using it to make an illusion of a fire, and a fire that does not move at all would be a completely worthless illusion.

Apologies, I mean "move" as in "move from one spot to another" rather than sitting in place (like a fire normally would). Thus, a campfire illusion might be appropriate, but a "torch" you move around may not (at the very least, because the lighting would be very imperfect). If I were your DM, I would have no issues if you wanted to "disguise" someone standing still, but I don't think that is what you're trying to do.

[Alejandro]

Originally Posted by Ashdate

Apologies, I mean "move" as in "move from one spot to another" rather than sitting in place (like a fire normally would). Thus, a campfire illusion might be appropriate, but a "torch" you move around may not (at the very least, because the lighting would be very imperfect). If I were your DM, I would have no issues if you wanted to "disguise" someone standing still, but I don't think that is what you're trying to do.

Well, then perhaps I will make a Tenser's Floating Disc, cram everyone onto it, and use some Silent Images to disguise it as a wagon filled with dung, move the disc-wagon with my mind, and hope for the best.

[obryn]

There's Seeming, a Level 12 ritual that can affect you plus 8 people.

-O

[NecroRebel]

Does Silent Image specify that you can attach it to a creature or object? It may be possible to have it have motion, but if it doesn't move along with whatever you're trying to cover with it, it's effectively worthless. I don't have the text to check, myself.

[Alejandro]

Originally Posted by obryn

There's Seeming, a Level 12 ritual that can affect you plus 8 people.

-O

I am level 6. I can't cast that, nor do I have it.

[Ashdate]

Originally Posted by Alejandro

Well, then perhaps I will make a Tenser's Floating Disc, cram everyone onto it, and use some Silent Images to disguise it as a wagon filled with dung, move the disc-wagon with my mind, and hope for the best.

You'll probably need to roll really high to carry all your party members on the disc. Also, wouldn't dung normally smell pretty badly?

NecroRebel: the spell does not specify that is cast on anything or anyone. It's pretty vague: here's the details (minus countermeasures) of the ritual:

Originally Posted by "Silent Image"

"You create an illusion of an object or a creature, or an effect such as fire. This illusion has only a visual aspect."

That's it. By RAW it is possibly one of the most powerful illusion rituals in the entire game! DRAGON MAGAZINE! That's why I think no sane DM would allow this ritual to do anything more than a relatively small effect.

I think this should probably become a new thread if you want suggestions on how to plan this. I'll leave the rest of my comment spoiled for the integrity of the thread:

Spoiler

My suggestion? If using a wagon full of dung is a credible solution, then why not carry the party in a wagon? Have a scroll of Silent Image handy for anyone who inspects your cargo, and cast the illusion (as a standard action, while they go to inspect the cart) to hide your party members if necessary. Give off an illusion of something that doesn't smell bad, like scraps of iron or something.

[Alejandro]

Q 417

This question is about two aspects of a paladin's build. The paladin has:

Virtuous Recovery
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Paladin
Benefit: Whenever you spend a healing surge, you gain resistance to all damage equal to your Wisdom modifier until the start of your next turn.

and

Superior Fortitude

Prerequisite: Strength 15 or Constitution 15
Benefit: You gain a +2 feat bonus to Fortitude. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.
You also gain resist 3 to ongoing damage. This resistance increases to 6 at 11th level and 9 at 21st level.

The question is: How would these interact if a character had both of them, and then had ongoing damage inflicted on them, and then spent a healing surge? I (think) DR never stacks, only your best number counts. Can these be combined?

[Dimers]

Making an illusion of a generic fire is no big deal. Making an illusion of a specific fire that moves in response to unexpected events -- say, arrows shooting into it out of the dark, kicking up a spray of embers -- is much more difficult. Making a humanoid face and body move precisely in time with an underlying person's speech and gestures is nearly impossible*. If I were DMing that situation, I'd call it an epic task and just set an epic-level Insight check DC for the person controlling the illusion. If they can make the roll, more power to 'em.

* Unless, of course, the illusion spell has a built-in ability to do that by itself, as others mentioned here do.

[obryn]

[b]A 417[/quote]

Originally Posted by Alejandro

DR never stacks, only your best number counts.

You just answered your own question. :)

DR never stacks unless it specifically says it does. Just like if you had Resist 5 Fire and Resist 3 Ongoing, you resist the first 5 points of ongoing fire damage each time you take it.

-O

[Alejandro]

OK. So really, the paladin should not take both of these, since one is going to overrule the other.

EDIT: For example, if the paladin has Virtuous Recovery in effect, and ongoing damage in effect, when his next turn starts, what 'happens' first? The ongoing damage or Virtuous Recovery expiring?

[Snowbody]

That's beyond the scope of this thread, but that's comparing apples and oranges. Superior Fortitude gives DR all the time but only against ongoing. Virtuous Recovery gives DR against anything but only after you spend a surge.

[Ashdate]

Originally Posted by Alejandro

OK. So really, the paladin should not take both of these, since one is going to overrule the other.

Not necessarily; Virtuous Recovery works against all damage (not just ongoing damage; it even can pair nicely with Lay on Hands), while Superior Fortitude still gives you a +2 fort bonus, and works against ongoing damage regardless of whether you've spent a healing surge. Just because they don't stack in one specific instance isn't necessarily a reason not to take both of them. If you're going to not take one of them, it should because there are better feats to take instead.

Edit: In response to your next question, ongoing damage happens at the start of your turn (when Virtuous Recovery ends), so unless you can spend a surge as a free action, Virtuous Recovery will not help against ongoing damage.

[obryn]

Originally Posted by Ashdate

Edit: In response to your next question, ongoing damage happens at the start of your turn (when Virtuous Recovery ends), so unless you can spend a surge as a free action, Virtuous Recovery will not help against ongoing damage.

I was pretty sure the player gets to determine the order in which "start of turn" and "end of turn" effects occur - same as the logic with ongoing damage vs. regeneration.

...Unless "until the start of your next turn" and "at the start of your next turn" are different. I could see that... Makes sense.

-O

[Snowbody]

Some start-of-turn effects happen in a particular order -- most notably, ongoing damage happens before regeneration, which may cause death if you're near negative bloodied, or temporary unconsciousness (and Prone) if you're near zero.

well that was just wrong...I thought I'd read that.

[Ashdate]

I just looked it up; Obyrn is 1000% correct here. You choose the order on which effects occur, and can choose to regenerate hit points before taking ongoing damage (Rules Compendium, pg. 197).

The question is therefore, is there any difference (mechanically, or rules wise) between effects that occur "until the start of your next turn", or those that occur "at the start of your turn"? The Rules Compendium doesn't give a definitive answer, but based on the wording of "condition" durations (Rules Comp. pg. 226) the answer, by RAW, is that yes, a player can use the effect generated by Virtuous Recovery to reduce any damage taken "at the start of" their turn, including ongoing damage.

FINAL ANSWER.

I apologize Alejandro for my mistake.

[Ranzear]

Q 418a:
We like it for flavor, but what actually is the interaction of a reach weapon (halberd) in conjunction with Great Cleave? We play it as 'hits in burst 2, but only gains damage bonus from adjacent as worded.'

Q 418b:
Secondarily, can you charge with a reach weapon and end your charge a square away having made your attack? Doesn't make sense to bull rush from reach still.

Probably already been covered, but search isn't working for me right now and I need a touch of insight on these while laying out a module for Monday.

[NecroRebel]

A 418a

There is no interaction between a reach weapon and a weapon-based close power's area of effect. By RAW, whatever weapon you use, Great Cleave hits a close burst 1.

In Martial Power 1, there is an epic Fighter feat, Reaching Whirlwind, which makes close burst 1s with the Weapon keyword into close burst 2s while wielding a reach weapon. Giving that effect to just anyone is obviously not the way things are supposed to work.

A 418b

There's no rule saying that you must end your charge adjacent to the target, thus you don't need to. You can end a charge using a reach weapon for your MBA when non-adjacent to the target.

You actually do need to end adjacent to bull rush off of a charge; Bull Rush is a melee 1 power (clarified as such in the Rules Compendium).

[tcrudisi]

Originally Posted by NecroRebel

A 418b

There's no rule saying that you must end your charge adjacent to the target, thus you don't need to. You can end a charge using a reach weapon for your MBA when non-adjacent to the target.

A 418b CLARIFICATION

There WAS a rule like this in the old PHB. It was removed from the Rules Compendium. It's a bit of a moot point as the answer remains the same; I just wanted to clarify before someone said, "But it says in the PHB!..." The Rules Compendium has replaced the PHB as the superior rules source.

[shamgar001]

Q419

According to the PHB Paragon MC rules:

At 11th level, you can choose to replace one of your
at-will powers with an at-will power from your second
class.

Does this include class feature at-will powers for Essentials classes? For example, replacing one of your native at-wills with the Scout's Dual Weapon Attack?

[tcrudisi]

Originally Posted by shamgar001

Q419

According to the PHB Paragon MC rules:

Does this include class feature at-will powers for Essentials classes? For example, replacing one of your native at-wills with the Scout's Dual Weapon Attack?

A 419

Technically, by RAW, yes. This is a bit cheesy, so you might have a problem getting a DM to approve it. As always, approve it with your DM first. If you are the DM, consider how it will be used.

Although, really, if you are using PMC, you probably need the power boost from grabbing Dual Weapon Attack or some-such.

[Ashdate]

Follow-up to A419: The online character builder will not let you pick the Scout's "Dual Weapon Attack". This is likely because that particular "at-will" power is considered a class feature. I haven't tested it, but it's probably a similar principle that would prevent a Paragon MC Paladin from taking their "Divine Challenge" instead of one of their own at-wills.

Of course, the Online Character Builder is not technically RAW.

Note, you could still take the core Ranger's Dual Strike instead, which might be a good alternative (assuming you can use strength instead of dex).

[tcrudisi]

Originally Posted by Ashdate

Follow-up to A419: The online character builder will not let you pick the Scout's "Dual Weapon Attack". This is likely because that particular "at-will" power is considered a class feature. I haven't tested it, but it's probably a similar principle that would prevent a Paragon MC Paladin from taking their "Divine Challenge" instead of one of their own at-wills.

Of course, the Online Character Builder is not technically RAW.

Note, you could still take the core Ranger's Dual Strike instead, which might be a good alternative (assuming you can use strength instead of dex).

There's quite a bit of debate over the very question that was asked. I'm AFB for a few more days, but the basics of it are something like this:

The PMC rules say you can take any at-will power from the other class. I believe Dual Weapon Attack is also an at-will power in addition to being a feature, isn't it? If it's an at-will power, it's eligible.

As you said, the character builder is not a rules source. It's wrong with many things and this is one example where it is wrong in some situations.

[malachi]

Originally Posted by tcrudisi

There's quite a bit of debate over the very question that was asked. I'm AFB for a few more days, but the basics of it are something like this:

The PMC rules say you can take any at-will power from the other class. I believe Dual Weapon Attack is also an at-will power in addition to being a feature, isn't it? If it's an at-will power, it's eligible.

As you said, the character builder is not a rules source. It's wrong with many things and this is one example where it is wrong in some situations.

So, if you PMC into a psionic class, you can take any of their epic tier at-wills, or is there another rule stating that you can't in that specific case? I know half-elves/humans have been changed to say they get a free level 1 at-will (or their other power); has that change occurred in other places?

[Ashdate]

Originally Posted by malachi

So, if you PMC into a psionic class, you can take any of their epic tier at-wills, or is there another rule stating that you can't in that specific case? I know half-elves/humans have been changed to say they get a free level 1 at-will (or their other power); has that change occurred in other places?

One thing to keep in mind is that the rules for "Paragon Multiclassing" was envisioned in a world where characters got two or three at-wills from their base class, and would rarely get an at-will utility power. Psionic characters such as the Psion clearly break this.

I've looked, and while there are RAW rules for retraining powers, and a specific restriction that powers gained from novice/acolyte/adept multiclass feats must be of the same level or lower, there is no general rule that "replaced" powers by default must be of the level or lower. By RAW, I believe you could PMC into an epic tier Psion At-Will.

That said, the interpretation of the vast majority of "swapped" powers is that they must be of the level (or lower!) of the swapped power. So RAI (again, not RAW), you would have to replace the level 1 at-will power with another level 1 at-will power. I can confirm however that the Character Builder (again, not an official rules source) lets you replace your base class's level 1 at-will with any psion at-will that is level 7 or lower (and won't let you retrain it to a higher level). This seems to me to be a fair "ruling".

Allowing you to replace a level one at-will at level 11 with a level 27 at-will? I'm going to go with "not the intention" (even if it might work by RAW).

[Ecoman]

Q420

Hi sorry if these question are abit simple just a few things am stuggling to find in the rule book.

a) does ongoing damage hurt the PC at the start or end of there turn?

b) do they make saving throws for effects at the start or end of there turn?

Thank you

[obryn]

A420
You take ongoing damage at the start of your turn.

Unless you have an ability to make saving throws at different times, you save versus all (save ends) conditions at the end of your turn.

So without any way to get extra saving throws, you're taking the ongoing damage at least once.

-O