Skyrim V: Skyrim

[Triaxx]

I've actually seen two water arrow mods. One for just those where the torch can be removed, and one which deactivates the actual light source. I've got the first, works well. Particularly for dealing with lights too close to enemies to reach.

[t209]

Do you wonder that Skyrim's thief gameplay is homage to thief (stealth, water arrow and backstab)?

[Dhavaer]

Originally Posted by t209

Do you wonder that Skyrim's thief gameplay is homage to thief (stealth, water arrow and backstab)?

No. Skyrim doesn't have water arrows by default and stealth and backstabs are pretty well ubiquitous in any game genre they're remotely viable in.

[Partof1]

Not everything in Skyrim is an homage, sheesh.

[Silverraptor]

Originally Posted by t209

Do you wonder that Skyrim's thief gameplay is homage to thief (stealth, water arrow and backstab)?

No. I don't need this extra white text.

[factotum]

Originally Posted by t209

Do you wonder that Skyrim's thief gameplay is homage to thief (stealth, water arrow and backstab)?

Yes, of *course* it is. I mean, it's not like backstab ever existed before Thief, and what kind of insanity is it that a person who relies on stealing stuff from people's homes would need any kind of stealth? Real thieves bang drums outside the front door to announce they're coming in, as I understand it.

(Apologies if I broke anyone's sarcasm detector there... ).

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by factotum

(Apologies if I broke anyone's sarcasm detector there... ).

Most people's detectors aren't properly calibrated for British levels of sarcasm, so I don't think you broke too many.

[t209]

Sorry, I kinda felt that thief gameplay is like overhauled version of Thief game. So it is busted!

[Flickerdart]

The original Thief was fairly old (1998), but the claim to fame of oldest stealth game is held by Metal Gear (1987).

So clearly the Dovahkiin is an homage to Solid Snake.

[Opperhapsen]

Originally Posted by VanBuren

Yeah, I'm never gonna be able to get behind racism, even fantasy racism.

It is racism.
But it's quite mild racism, he refuses to deal with the issues of the grey quarters while more important stuff is going on.

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

I mean I can see that a Nord character CAN be played as supporter of the Stormcloaks, either for religious reasons or because he is a racist. I do not see any other race as plausible to support them, the way they are all treated.

The only races treated poorly by Nords are Khajit, Argonians and Mer.
We've been over why I can't get worked up over that.

Originally Posted by Rion

I don't think I will ever be able to do a Stormcloak playthrough. Not because of the racism since it's not in your face during the quests themselves. But because of the Jarls. There are practically two types of Imperial/Stormcloak Jarl pairs, either both of them are horrible rulers, or the Imperial one is competent and the Stormcloak one incompetent.

Spoiler

Imperial Whiterun has Balgruuf (who I don't think anyone think incompetent), while Stormcloak Whiterun has Vignar who hid with his family during the battle rather than either attacking Whiterun with the other Stormcloaks or defending it with ther other inhabitants.

In Falkreath the Imperial Jarl is an amoral upperclass twit while the Stormcloak is a paranoid conspiracy theorist who don't even trust his former servants. Even when they have lost their prestigious positions because they supported him.

The Stormcloak Skald of Dawnstar is viewed as a spoiled brat in an old man's body by everyone in town, while they view Imperial Brina Merilis as highly competent.

Both Riften and Markarth have original Jarls which aren't particularly sympathetic, while the replacement Jarls are the heads of the Silverblood family for Markarth and the Blackbriar family for the Imperials. Even then Laila Law-Giver reveals that she doesn't think Ulfric will be a competent at ruling the country if you become a Thane of Riften before the Imperials take the city.

Brunwulf Free-Winter improves both the Argonian and Dark Elf situations shortly after becoming Jarl of Winterhold.

In Winterhold the Stormcloak Jarl is antagonistic towards the mages and holds them responsible for the destruction of the city. The Imperial Jarl on the other hand, is friendly towards them and hope more cooporation between the city and the college can help Winterhold to become less of a hole in the ground.

I have to admit that I don't know how good a Jarl the Stormcloak replacement for Morthal is, but from the "Laid to Rest" and "Diplomatic Immunity" quests I have a positive opinion of Idgrod Ravencrone.

Spoiler

The Silverblood that comes to power is not in the Markath Mafia.
No seriously, he's not involved.
He's also more openly willing to go against it and fight corruption, as evidenced if manage to get the Forsworn conspiracy quest after the city is taken. (Instead of denying it and being a part of the conspiracy, he wants to end it post-haste)
And Igmund supported the Stormcloaks right up until the moment it became politically inconvenient at which point he became Imperial.

The Jarl of Dawnstar's only overtly negative trait is his complete distaste for anything Imperial, even retired soldiers. Which is kind of completely justified seeing as he has seen his city get completely screwed over by the Empire

Laila never says Ulfric will be a bad king, she just remarks that he may be doing this for his own ambition.

Brunwulf Free-winter is basically Lyndon B. Johnson meets Jesus, so I won't argue there.

In Winterhold the man has seen his town burn not once, not twice, but several times due to the mages having zero sense of right and wrong, nor understanding basic safety measures.

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

All true.
But I still don't think he is doing the right thing, and I fail to see what "evil" the Empire has done.
Of course it all gets muddled by how you play your character anyway, I have found it funny (not talking about anyone on this forum!) when people argue for the virtue of Ulfric (and the oppressive evil of the Empire) while themselves playing a member of the dark brotherhood, for example.

You mean apart from murdering civillian, torching farms, allowing foreign nationals in to the country to carry out an inquisition, religious oppression, cultural suppression, ignoring the law of the land, and branding anyone who fights the Thalmor an enemy of the state?

As I have stated before.
The Stormcloaks have the moral high ground here.

[karpik777]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

Spoiler

In Winterhold the man has seen his town burn not once, not twice, but several times due to the mages having zero sense of right and wrong, nor understanding basic safety measures.

Spoiler

When did he see it? He hates the mages from the start, and not counting things which happen during the College questline the last catastrophy in Winterhold was the Great Collapse - IIRC it was ~80 years before Skyrim. He doesn't seem old enough to recall that (not to mention there is no proof the mages did cause it) ;) At the same time a lot of the prestige and power the town had before came from the College's existance

[t209]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

I
You mean apart from murdering civillian, torching farms, allowing foreign nationals in to the country to carry out an inquisition, religious oppression, cultural suppression, ignoring the law of the land, and branding anyone who fights the Thalmor an enemy of the state?

As I have stated before.
The Stormcloaks have the moral high ground here.

How about the truce quest?

Spoiler

If you believe Ulfric burn down a village or imperials use false flag operations. Plus he "liberated" Markath from Forsworn (who were maybe sane back then and natives of Markath) and massacre any who did not join in his crusade on Bretons.

[J.Gellert]

I guess discussions like this prove how the designers made a great job painting both factions gray. I consider this ambiguity one of the best things of the game, and it really sets the tone for the setting.

In fact it's telling that my character (a "paladin") didn't do any quests for either side. I am usually a perfectionist in RPGs, yet they made for compelling storytelling even when I chose to avoid a large part of the plotline.

I can't even decide for myself who's better. I was leaning towards Ulfric simply because it would have been a jerk move for the Imperials to have, you know, killed me, but his racist tendencies changed my mind. On the other hand, there's the tiny fact that the Empire supports the obvious bad guys...

[GloatingSwine]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

The original Thief was fairly old (1998), but the claim to fame of oldest stealth game is held by Metal Gear (1987).

So clearly the Dovahkiin is an homage to Solid Snake.

I'll see your 1987 and raise you a 1986

[t209]

Originally Posted by Gaelbert

Or traders, Khajit caravans, people looking to start a new life in a new land, people wanting to learn about magic, people wanting to visit Skyrim, people wanting to leave the destruction of their own land behind them, etc. etc.

Edit: Wait. Are you implying that refugees ought to be put to death?

Maybe I should have not put the refugee part.

[VanBuren]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

The only races treated poorly by Nords are Khajit, Argonians and Mer.
We've been over why I can't get worked up over that.

Because all of them are guilty of the practices of their racial homelands even if they personally disagree/never took part/have never been in said homeland?

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

You mean apart from murdering civillian, torching farms, allowing foreign nationals in to the country to carry out an inquisition, religious oppression, cultural suppression, ignoring the law of the land, and branding anyone who fights the Thalmor an enemy of the state?

As I have stated before.
The Stormcloaks have the moral high ground here.

...Torching farms? Murdering civilians? Which Imperials are these? I haven't seen or heard of them before. Maybe you're thinking of Star Wars? Poor uncle Owen.

Allowing the Thalmor who soundly beat the entire Empire (Okay, it turned out that Hammerfell was fine and that the elves were just really good at bluffing), not just the Imperials, during the Great War, to continue doing what they want instead of starting another war that they might lose, and lose everything rather than just the right to whorship Talos?

Hell! You could whorship Talos in Skyrim before Ulfric started making a fuss. Because the Imperials were totally and completely enforcing those Thalmor laws and all, coughcough.

The Stormcloaks really have nothing, aside from "GOTTA FIGHT THE ELVES" going for them, and the Empire's going to do that when they're more confident anyway. Ulfric just wants to be High King and try to start his own Empire like Tiber Septim did a thousand years ago. But he doesn't have Numidium, the thousand-foot-tall Dwarven killbot, to take out castles for him.

[The_Jackal]

Here's the problem with absolving the Empire of responsibility of these crimes: The function of the state is to exercise a monopoly of force. Simply put, you protect your people, or you're not a legitimate government. The Empire has given the Thalmor a free hand to wander the land, kidnapping, torturing and killing Talos worshippers. Ulfric challenged Torygg over his inaction in stopping the Thalmor. Torygg accepted the duel for the High Kingship, and lost. The Empire and then decided they didn't like the outcome, branded Ulfric a murderer. That's what starts the Rebellion. The weakness, duplicity and cowardice of the Empire.

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by The_Jackal

Here's the problem with absolving the Empire of responsibility of these crimes: The function of the state is to exercise a monopoly of force. Simply put, you protect your people, or you're not a legitimate government. The Empire has given the Thalmor a free hand to wander the land, kidnapping, torturing and killing Talos worshippers. Ulfric challenged Torygg over his inaction in stopping the Thalmor. Torygg accepted the duel for the High Kingship, and lost. The Empire and then decided they didn't like the outcome, branded Ulfric a murderer. That's what starts the Rebellion. The weakness, duplicity and cowardice of the Empire.

The problem with your explaination, though, is that the Thalmor weren't in Skyrim in force before Ulfric started making a mess. The Imperials were supposed to enforce the No-Talos Law, which they did up to a point by removing the Talos statues from all the Temples of the Nine (Eight, now). There's no indication that the Imperials went hunting around for Talos whorshippers at all, seeing as they weren't happy with that law themselves.

And the Empire has no reason to respect centuries-old Nordish tradition legally, especially when it involves killing off what they saw as the rightful ruler. The Nords never managed a pact, as Morrowind did, in which thier traditions are given modern Imperial legal standing.

[VanBuren]

Originally Posted by The_Jackal

Here's the problem with absolving the Empire of responsibility of these crimes: The function of the state is to exercise a monopoly of force. Simply put, you protect your people, or you're not a legitimate government. The Empire has given the Thalmor a free hand to wander the land, kidnapping, torturing and killing Talos worshippers. Ulfric challenged Torygg over his inaction in stopping the Thalmor. Torygg accepted the duel for the High Kingship, and lost. The Empire and then decided they didn't like the outcome, branded Ulfric a murderer. That's what starts the Rebellion. The weakness, duplicity and cowardice of the Empire.

And from the Empire's perspective, that action is at present the most effective way to protect the people. The best shot everyone has against the Thalmor is a united Empire. Ulfric's Civil War is only helping the Thalmor.

[The Extinguisher]

Not weighing in on the whole Empire thing, just wanted to say that I keep seeing the title as Skyrim vs Skyrim. I love it.

[Triaxx]

I disagree. The best chance is an empire that doesn't sit on it's tail and do nothing, instead of taking it's legions and counter attacking now during peace.

If the Thalmor are so worried about the thing in Skyrim, let them deal with it. Then while they're distracted, smack them. The initial attack was a problem, because the Thalmor had the initiative, and the empire didn't take them seriously. Now that they know better, and they can have the initiative themselves.

[karpik777]

Originally Posted by Triaxx

I disagree. The best chance is an empire that doesn't sit on it's tail and do nothing, instead of taking it's legions and counter attacking now during peace.

If the Thalmor are so worried about the thing in Skyrim, let them deal with it. Then while they're distracted, smack them. The initial attack was a problem, because the Thalmor had the initiative, and the empire didn't take them seriously. Now that they know better, and they can have the initiative themselves.

The problem is that the Empire doesn't really have a force strong enough to guarantee a victory. And they'd need to be sure they can win before breaking the peace treaty and starting a war. Also, the Thalmor most likely won't engage full scale in Skyrim - why would they bother? Stormcloak victory means that the Empire will be weakened (since it loses the Nords and gets an unfriendly country on yet another border) and becomes an easier prey.

[Opperhapsen]

Originally Posted by karpik777

Spoiler

When did he see it? He hates the mages from the start, and not counting things which happen during the College questline the last catastrophy in Winterhold was the Great Collapse - IIRC it was ~80 years before Skyrim. He doesn't seem old enough to recall that (not to mention there is no proof the mages did cause it) ;) At the same time a lot of the prestige and power the town had before came from the College's existance

There are still smouldering ruins when you arrive.
The man's prejudice against mages would be less okay if they bothered to set up some kind of rudimentary security protocol.

Originally Posted by karpik777

The problem is that the Empire doesn't really have a force strong enough to guarantee a victory. And they'd need to be sure they can win before breaking the peace treaty and starting a war. Also, the Thalmor most likely won't engage full scale in Skyrim - why would they bother? Stormcloak victory means that the Empire will be weakened (since it loses the Nords and gets an unfriendly country on yet another border) and becomes an easier prey.

They didn't before, and after the loss of hammerfell they most certainly don't now.
'tis complicated indeed.

Originally Posted by VanBuren

And from the Empire's perspective, that action is at present the most effective way to protect the people. The best shot everyone has against the Thalmor is a united Empire. Ulfric's Civil War is only helping the Thalmor.

The best shot the Empire has is Skyrim, not the other way around.
Militarily Skyrim would do better by itself, and with the loss of Hammerfell they'll be the only ones dying for an Empire that openly oppresses them.

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

...Torching farms? Murdering civilians? Which Imperials are these? I haven't seen or heard of them before. Maybe you're thinking of Star Wars? Poor uncle Owen.

Allowing the Thalmor who soundly beat the entire Empire (Okay, it turned out that Hammerfell was fine and that the elves were just really good at bluffing), not just the Imperials, during the Great War, to continue doing what they want instead of starting another war that they might lose, and lose everything rather than just the right to whorship Talos?

Hell! You could whorship Talos in Skyrim before Ulfric started making a fuss. Because the Imperials were totally and completely enforcing those Thalmor laws and all, coughcough.

The Stormcloaks really have nothing, aside from "GOTTA FIGHT THE ELVES" going for them, and the Empire's going to do that when they're more confident anyway. Ulfric just wants to be High King and try to start his own Empire like Tiber Septim did a thousand years ago. But he doesn't have Numidium, the thousand-foot-tall Dwarven killbot, to take out castles for him.

The torching of farms is only spoken off, since the game engine probably couldn't do a house burning to cinders, but the murder, arrest, and mistreatment of civies you get to see first hand.

As for the chances of the Stormcloaks you forget a few things:
Hammerfell won their indendence, the Empire is legendarily incompetent (OH SURE WE'LL SIGN A PEACE TREATY THE EXACT EQUIVALENT OF SURRENDER TERMS AFTER KILLING YOUR ENTIRE ARMY, WHY NOT?!), the majority of the legion is Nord, and it's not just about the worship of Talos.
They let foreign nationals in to their home to kill and torture them.

And you know what?
Even if the Empire wasn't really enforcing the Talos ban, the Thalmor sure as hell were.

The Stormcloaks have moral reasons (Slaughter, suppression, oppression etc.), cultural reason (By Skyrim law they are the lawful authority), the matter of self defence (The empire struck first), and logic (Skyrim may do better alone, and the Empire is doing nothing to stop the Thalmor)

[karpik777]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

There are still smouldering ruins when you arrive.
The man's prejudice against mages would be less okay if they bothered to set up some kind of rudimentary security protocol.

And magic is the only reason smouldering ruins could exist in the game? As I said - before the quest chain the last thing we know about that harmed the town and could be caused by the mages happened many years before. I think that if they did something, someone in the town would mention it...

And you know what?
Even if the Empire wasn't really enforcing the Talos ban, the Thalmor sure as hell were.

It seems they didn't really do much in Skyrim before Ulfric's rebellion. So, this he had brought on his people.

The Stormcloaks have moral reasons (Slaughter, suppression, oppression etc.), cultural reason (By Skyrim law they are the lawful authority), the matter of self defence (The empire struck first), and logic (Skyrim may do better alone, and the Empire is doing nothing to stop the Thalmor)

Yes, the Stormcloaks are morally so much better - apart from the slaughter in Markarth (which is Ulfric's responsibility) and the way they treat all Argonians/Dunmer/Khajiit. Half of Skyrim disputed the "lawful authority" and "self defence" parts - in their eyes Ulfric started it all by murdering the king.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by J.Gellert

I guess discussions like this prove how the designers made a great job painting both factions gray. I consider this ambiguity one of the best things of the game, and it really sets the tone for the setting.

In fact it's telling that my character (a "paladin") didn't do any quests for either side. I am usually a perfectionist in RPGs, yet they made for compelling storytelling even when I chose to avoid a large part of the plotline.

I can't even decide for myself who's better. I was leaning towards Ulfric simply because it would have been a jerk move for the Imperials to have, you know, killed me, but his racist tendencies changed my mind. On the other hand, there's the tiny fact that the Empire supports the obvious bad guys...

Well, there's still the problem that the Thalmor themselves want a stalemate. They don't want a conclusive end, which only you, the Dovahkiin, can provide.

[Calemyr]

For the Empire, losing Skyrim is really not an option. With the loss of the Valenwood, Summerset Isles, Elseweyr, Black Marsh, Hammerfell, and the obliteration of Morrowind, Cyrodil has a grand total of four provinces left. Skyrim is one of them. More importantly, the High Rock and Orsinium (I doubt I have that name right) are on the other side of Skyrim. As is Morrowind, for what that territory's worth now. If those territories become isolated, they will be lost - particularly the orcs, who are frankly as popular as their god and will be crushed without backing.

The Empire loses Skyrim, they lose everything and might as well rename their nation Cyrodil, because that's all they'll have left. And they'll have no chance at all against the Thalmor.

Empire playing into Thalmor plans? Maybe, but only because the Thalmor set this up so that all paths suit them. Of course, they also lose either way - Skyrim will still remain hostile to them in either event, and Ulfric is very good at fighting superior forces and inspiring his own troops. But with the spine of the Empire completely shattered, giving up Skyrim would be the most beneficial action for the Thalmor that the Empire could take.

I still love the fact that there is one game in the universe where "Empire" doesn't equate to "puppy-kicking evil".

[Rion]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

Spoiler

The Silverblood that comes to power is not in the Markath Mafia.
No seriously, he's not involved.

Spoiler

The Silverblood that comes to power is the head of the Silverblood family and the one who deals with their political aspirations, while his brother Thonar is the one who manages the family's assets

Spoiler

He's also more openly willing to go against it and fight corruption, as evidenced if manage to get the Forsworn conspiracy quest after the city is taken. (Instead of denying it and being a part of the conspiracy, he wants to end it post-haste)

Spoiler

I wouldn't know, but in that case I concede Thonvor is a better than Maven Black-Briar, though I don't know if the difference between him and Igmund is greater than that between Maven and Laila

Spoiler

The Jarl of Dawnstar's only overtly negative trait is his complete distaste for anything Imperial, even retired soldiers. Which is kind of completely justified seeing as he has seen his city get completely screwed over by the Empire

Spoiler

While that is the only trait he exhibits during a brief visit, he is much worse. Several servants and citizens directly says he was a spoiled brat who never grew up, and another says that the inhabitants of Dawnstar go to Brina Merilis if they have any problems, even before she replacces him. If asked about how the town can handle dragons, Brina says it a dragon attack would be a complete catastrophe due to the wood, and that she is trying to get outside help to avoid deaths. Skald repsonse is that the dragons are Talos's revenge on the Empire, and tries to get more of his guards sent to join the Stormcloaks, since Ulfric's victory means the dragons disappear.

Spoiler

Laila never says Ulfric will be a bad king, she just remarks that he may be doing this for his own ambition.

Spoiler

I know. That part was mostly intended to show that Bethesda really tries to hammer home that Ulfric is using his cause for personal gain, ratehr than actually believing it (they've got a child saying that she thinks Ulfric is a bad man and wonder why the adults can't see it for gods sake)

Spoiler

In Winterhold the man has seen his town burn not once, not twice, but several times due to the mages having zero sense of right and wrong, nor understanding basic safety measures.

Spoiler

He holds them accountable for someething it's quite possible they didn't do and is a prime example of the prevalent Nord opinion that mages shouldn't exist at all.

You mean apart from murdering civillian, torching farms, allowing foreign nationals in to the country to carry out an inquisition, religious oppression, cultural suppression, ignoring the law of the land, and branding anyone who fights the Thalmor an enemy of the state?

All of which only started after Ulfric's rebellion began, because the Empire couldn't keep denying that Thalmor worship was still prevlent in Skyrim.

That said your point about Thongvor has me wanting to actually complete a Stormcloak playtrough. I can understand where both sides come from, and most of my reluctance about the Stormcloak has been because of Brina Balgruuf and Legate Rikke*, and to a lesser extent Tullius and Brina Merilis. Helping a more competent ruler become Jarl would help having to lose them.

*You really need to try an Imperial playtrough just to experience Rikke's dialogue choices through out the entire quest-line. I don't think many Stormcloak players understand how much of a True Daughter of Skyrim she is.

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

There are still smouldering ruins when you arrive.

No, no there aren't. There's the old ruins of houses that were abandoned, and that's it, but...

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

The man's prejudice against mages would be less okay if they bothered to set up some kind of rudimentary security protocol.

...The Mages do admittedly have no idea Health And Safety means. Or collateral. Nutty wizards.

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

They didn't before, and after the loss of hammerfell they most certainly don't now.
'tis complicated indeed.
The best shot the Empire has is Skyrim, not the other way around.
Militarily Skyrim would do better by itself, and with the loss of Hammerfell they'll be the only ones dying for an Empire that openly oppresses them.

Skyrim that didn't just go through a civil war, maybe. Heck, not even then. The Empire still has Morrowind, High Rock, and maybe Black Marsh. The Argonians aren't really talking.

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

The torching of farms is only spoken off, since the game engine probably couldn't do a house burning to cinders, but the murder, arrest, and mistreatment of civies you get to see first hand.

Spoken of? By who? I've never heard it brought up by any NPC. Heck, the one place that you could even try to claim that for is the farm outside Windhelm, which turns out to be mostly fine after the battle ends.

Murder ; What? When?
Arrest ; Derp? They're the law-making Empire that rules the lands.
Mistreatment ; Aside from the overzealous Captain at the beginning of the game, when?

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

As for the chances of the Stormcloaks you forget a few things:
Hammerfell won their indendence,

Hammerfell hasn't won thier Independance since the Second Era. Right now they're just refusing to be part of the Empire, who can't do anything about it.

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

the Empire is legendarily incompetent (OH SURE WE'LL SIGN A PEACE TREATY THE EXACT EQUIVALENT OF SURRENDER TERMS AFTER KILLING YOUR ENTIRE ARMY, WHY NOT?!)

Yes, the Imperials managed to catch the Thalmor in the Imperial City and kill an army... After losing all of thier regular legions and going for the emergency conscription to replace thier losses. Anything that kept the war going would be the end of Cyrodiil.

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

the majority of the legion is Nord, and it's not just about the worship of Talos.

Incorrect. Unless you're referring to the way that Imperials were Atmorans who left home a few centuries before the Nords did.

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

And you know what?
Even if the Empire wasn't really enforcing the Talos ban, the Thalmor sure as hell were.

See above anwsers.

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

The Stormcloaks have moral reasons (Slaughter, suppression, oppression etc.), cultural reason (By Skyrim law they are the lawful authority), the matter of self defence (The empire struck first), and logic (Skyrim may do better alone, and the Empire is doing nothing to stop the Thalmor)

WHAT?

By Skyrim law the Moot still has to pick a High King, by legal law Ulfric murdered Torigg, the Stormcloaks hit first by KILLING the current High King, and logic.... ASDGHEWeHRSDRG. I'm not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.

[Triaxx]

The reason they haven't succeeded in replenishing their forces, is because they're busily fighting the guys who they use to replenish their forces, instead of telling them, hey, we don't like this either, lets get together and smash some faces while they're distracted. That's always been a failing of the Empire. They've been repeatedly trounced by small guerilla armies. There was a book in Oblivion, where a small king, I believe of Kvatch, rode out to engage the current emperor in battle, met him with a small force of cavalry and led him into an ambush where his entire guard was wiped out by archers and rocks.

The empire will never win a war with a clever enemy.