The Gathering of Light

[Ralasha]

That's not 5 million gold worth, it's about... 800k. My money all went to my followers.

[Ralasha]

That's not 5 million gold worth, it's about... 800k. My money all went to my followers.

In order to resurrect them whenever one should die, heal their wounds, etc I asked them to provide those for their healing needs.

I control the best country in the world, everyone is Exalted.

[greenpotato]

So you take vow of povert and yet still spend all your money on wands and things to drain for their spells?
How does that make any sense at all?
Do you think someone leaves 200 convenient items just sitting there for you to drain of their power?
The only way you could have got all that **** is if you buy the items and that doesn't fit with Vop fluff at all, you either actually stick to your vow or you loose the benefits.

[Ralasha]

Actually, if I give the money to my followers, it is theirs. If I then ask them for items so that I can drain them in order to heal or resurrect my followers, this does not count as my possessing the items, since my followers can always say no. This means it is legal. I did not buy the items.

I would also like to point out I was being hypothetical. I don't have those magic charges. I have in fact no magic charges. As according to my character sheet. Else those would be under 'spells'.

Go grouch at someone deserving.

[Madara]

Hey guys, this is your Co-DM speaking. I'm visiting the good-guys first since you have a shorter thread(Made the full read through easier)

Green, I looked over your VoP fix. I'm ok with the 1-20, but not with the epic version. Teleport at will is one of the major kickers for me. I think the big thing bothering me with the Epic VoP is it grants more than class levels. Which is a lot for a feat you take once. Seriously, it could be its own class.

The 1-20 gives some things that people wouldn't be able to all afford even with full cash. As-is I think almost everyone would gain more out of it than out of items. Anywho, my final stance is semi-acceptance of 1-20 and rejection of the epic. But the final say comes from igneel. Now I have more stuff to go look at....


Don't worry, its not a total rejection. We could probably come to some agreement or something later if you really want it.

[silphael]

Teleport at will, with a one minute concentration time. In an epic game, that's lower than what we can do with magic item, and that's the goal: technically VoP is trading items for some abilities. Such a power is easy to get with items (especially epic items). And it still have to be worth a feat (and not a weak feat like weapon focus and Cie).

[Madara]

Teleport at will, with a one minute concentration time

The one minute is for greater teleport as I understand.

As a supernatural ability, it takes a standard action, but it has no components. No gestures, speaking, or anything else. That makes capture impossible, and from what I can read for the RAW, Dimension Lock does not block it. I'd ask that it be changed to a Spell-Like ability.

You must realize, at least Items can be taken away or destroyed.

[Matamane]

To be fair...Team Evil is also pulling these kinds of shenanigans.

This is what I mean by abuse...VoP without the commitment is blatantly disregarding the spirit of the option, and it bothers me that you think that it's ok to do that.

Based on what ig does in the next bit will determine whether I will continue playing...but as is, this is a load.

[silphael]

As written, the first sentence explain what the power is doing. Look at plane shift, that's the same thing.

[Madara]

Teleportation (Su): At level 23 you gain the ability to teleport at will. By concentrating for one minute, you may teleport as the spell greater teleport. This ability only affects you.

If you want to take it as requiring one minute concentration, then I'm fine with it. I still believe its two statements, but I can see how it can be read different ways.

[Ralasha]

I'm fine with just dimensional step at will as the monk ability instead of teleport /plane shift.

Nevermind, I'll take that. 1 minute concentration teleport.

[greenpotato]

I interpreted it as requiring one minute of concentration before you teleport, as in you can't do it in combat without doing nothing else for 10 rounds. And it's not my homebrew, someone else on team good requested it and I decided to use it too.

[Ralasha]

It was actually suggested to me by the DM, so I used the epic progression for standard VOP. That is to say, I used the Epic Progression that was suggested.

[silphael]

As written, the first sentence explain what the power is doing. Look at plane shift, that's the same thing.

[Igneel]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

Teleportation (Su): At level 23 you gain the ability to teleport at will. By concentrating for one minute, you may teleport as the spell greater teleport. This ability only affects you.

Plane Shift (Su): At level 27 you gain the ability to plane shift at will. By concentrating for five minutes, you may shift planes as the spell plane shift. This ability only affects you.

Honestly I'm not seeing the problem, as both abilities specifically state that they take at least a minute of Concentrating to duplicate spells that take standard actions to use. From both my Copy+saved version on my laptop and the one online, there is not lesser version of the Teleport, so you only get Greater Teleport. Yes its at will, but it also only affects you and only after a bit of concentration making it ineffective in battle and doesn't exactly 100% bypass the defenses Team Evil will have.

Its easy to throw a VoP player into a Anti-Magic Jail Cell (which I'm sure Team Evil will have) for example, and have all Su, Sp, etc abilities taken away from them which includes about half of the reasons why most people pick VoP.

I'm going to have to disallow Divine Ranks, including the DR 0 as it is killing my Good Team (yes, I think of Good Team more my team as drack thinks of Evil Team his) without even killing a character. I'm personally open to suggestions on what to replace as your 30th level ability if one should be given at all.

I'm seriously debating about my judgement on allowing The Ascetic if in a way its breaking the VoP's key part of its own vow.

[silphael]

About the Ascetic, I was seeing it more as a "you can now use all the staff/wands that you find while scouring the world." That's, too, the reason why I asked which amount of money I could have "spend" in that class feature.

[Ralasha]

My Saint Template gives me DR0. Which doesn't qualify you for any of the... more broken divine abilities. I think DR1+ should be banned, since if I cared to I could easily become an Over-Deity. Then I just instantly kill all evil creatures in all of the worlds, everywhere, and we win. Or I take the Flaying Aura. Congratulations you now take 500 damage a round when within 1000 miles if evil.

I went for DR1, because a Demigod (DR1-5) is still mortal, in being you can kill it with a sword.

If I wanted to break the game I would make a troll or half-troll, take the woodling template from MM3, and get an immunity to fire ring, and an immunity to acid ring.

Woodling gives you plant traits (in addition to racial traits). Meaning immunity to subdual. Good job, I'm now perfectly immortal. All damage deals me subdual, which I am immune to.

I'm not trying to be that lame.

As to the drain item ability: Replace it with a per-round lay on hands that heals damage equal to charisma bonus/round, and a raise dead usable a couple of times a day.

However, Hero-Gods, and Demigods (DR1-5) are still mortals. I don't really see the issue with those ranks. I want to see one of the evil undead character's take Divine Rank 2, immunity to negative energy. and lulz, you can't heal.

I could easily have over 500 thousand worshipers if I felt like breaking the game. Over-deity. Game over.

[Madara]

See I misread it as "At will" being literally at will. Its just that in DnD, One minute concentration isn't "At Will"

But I will point out that it isn't blocked by dimension lock or the like, Only Anti-Magic Field.

You create a shimmering emerald barrier that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like or psionic abilities.

So I suggest house-ruling it to block the Supernatural Ability teleport as well.

[Igneel]

Originally Posted by Madara

See I misread it as "At will" being literally at will. Its just that in DnD, One minute concentration isn't "At Will"

But I will point out that it isn't blocked by dimension lock or the like, Only Anti-Magic Field.

So I suggest house-ruling it to block the Supernatural Ability teleport as well.

Alright, agreed. Now with that settled, lets move on to the next bit of trouble...

Originally Posted by Ralasha

My Saint Template gives me DR0. Which doesn't qualify you for any of the... more broken divine abilities. I think DR1+ should be banned, since if I cared to I could easily become an Over-Deity. Then I just instantly kill all evil creatures in all of the worlds, everywhere, and we win. Or I take the Flaying Aura. Congratulations you now take 500 damage a round when within 1000 miles if evil.

Am I blind, or does my copy of Book of Exalted Deeds specifically not include you gaining Divine Rank 0? Granted it gives you abilities such as immunities that Divine Rank 0 gives as well, it doesn't specifically mention you getting any Divine Rank.
Divine Rank any is going to be frowned upon in any case.

I went for DR1, because a Demigod (DR1-5) is still mortal, in being you can kill it with a sword.

And lots of work, especially if you go to the trouble that you use as an example in the following.

If I wanted to break the game I would make a troll or half-troll, take the woodling template from MM3, and get an immunity to fire ring, and an immunity to acid ring.

Woodling gives you plant traits (in addition to racial traits). Meaning immunity to subdual. Good job, I'm now perfectly immortal. All damage deals me subdual, which I am immune to.

I'm not trying to be that lame.

And this would warrant problems of balance in that you would be obviously optimizing through the rules I have set which if I have warned could guarantee at least a change of the rules for your character if not for everyone else. How would you explain your creation? What kind of background would a character that comes from a heritage of Trolls that slept with plants live? This is up there with a player that tried to use Half-Golem and Multi-headed on a Lumi (MM3) to effectively become 'unkillable' in the same sense as this example.

As to the drain item ability: Replace it with a per-round lay on hands that heals damage equal to charisma bonus/round, and a raise dead usable a couple of times a day.

Sounds like a Touch of Vitality from the Dragon Shaman re-write called Wyrmlord to me... I'll think about it.

However, Hero-Gods, and Demigods (DR1-5) are still mortals. I don't really see the issue with those ranks. I want to see one of the evil undead character's take Divine Rank 2, immunity to negative energy. and lulz, you can't heal.

The problem is all the bonuses and abilities you get for minimum effort. Not so much as even a LA to tack on that other templates/races give you just for a fraction of the abilities. Not to mention access to the Divinity Feats.
Its also in the house rules that Resistance/Immunity to certain abilities (such as Magic and or Positive/Negative energy) can be raised or lowered if the target wills it to happen. So that undead that is 'immune to negative energy' can still get healed if he desires for it.

I could easily have over 500 thousand worshipers if I felt like breaking the game. Over-deity. Game over.

Not exactly helping your cause. Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

[greenpotato]

Originally Posted by Ralasha

My Saint Template gives me DR0...

...I went for DR1, because a Demigod (DR1-5) is still mortal, in being you can kill it with a sword.

...I could easily have over 500 thousand worshipers if I felt like breaking the game. Over-deity. Game over.

Except the DM has now banned divine ranks so no, you don't.
Thanks a lot for taking something too far and getting it banned for the rest of us.

[Ralasha]

Green, you make lots of assumptions. I was being hypothetical, I took that no where. So now asking questions is a crime. Got it.

I didn't, and wouldn't even though I could.

I would also like to point out that the Half-Troll Wildling was also hypothetical, and that I wouldn't make one, ever.

I would also like to point out that divine rank is never going to give you immunity to damage, and that a VOP would prevent said troll from having immunity to fire and acid.

I would also like to point out that The things I said were entirely Hypothetical, and that if you're that worried about it, outlaw DR1+, and ban Divine Feats. Done, now this is a non-issue. Period.

Broken: Factotum/Chameleon/Archmage//Whatever

I has 9th level spells as any caster I want. *dances* You want broken, this isn't punpun, but it'll kick a god's ass.

I would also like to point out I was arguing against allowing DR1+. That is why I pointed out I could get Over-Deity status. I wasn't arguing against banning DR, I was pointing out a very good reason TO ban it. I was just hoping you would leave DR0 intact, since it grants pretty much nothing.

I go Wizard/Wizard Archmage//Sorcerer/Sorcerer Archmage

I have at will spells. See Archmage is applied to one caster class, so I take it twice.
Wizard10/AM1//Sorcerer11
Wizard11/AM1//Sorcerer11/AM1
(continue up to level 20 with Wizard20/Archmage 10//Sorcerer 20/Archmage 10)

spend all high arcana on At-Will spells, using epic feats for higher spell slots. I now cast Mordenkainens Disjunction at will. No matter when you cast a spell I dispel it. I take Time Stop as another one. Battle starts, I leave some at-will (all energy type) maximized (15d615d615d615d6 15d6)75d6 delayed blast fireballs in all 8 of the spaces around you.

I take Arcane Healing, I can sacrifice a spell to heal an amount equal to the spells level. I sacrifice my at-will. I can heal 9 hp a round as an immediate action, on any round.

I dispel your magic while taking a 10.

I have a +2 to my casterlevel from my race (Illumian)

I am a Spellfire User.

I hit you with an antimagic fielf by sacrificing my 9th level at-will spell.

I take 10's on caster-level checks, with a +4 to effective casterlevel to dispel magic (Including Disjunction). I always take a 46 on casterlevel checks.

I use buy a relic that causes me to become deathless after I lose all of my con. I am now a Deathless Lich that looks healthy and alive. I give me . I can no longer be turned, because rebuke is a negative energy effect.

Now, what I'm pointing out here is: I'm not doing these things.

Half-Troll with the crazy Woodling Halfling as a base. Guess how this happened? Troll kidnapped female Woodling Halfling. The rest is not postable. You asked how I would get a Half-troll Woodling, right?

Again, my point is that while there are doesn't of ways to break the game, I'm not doing them.

I could have a permanent turning aura. Take improved Turning every time I gain a feat.

3 feats from epic.

7 feats from levels.

1 first level, 1 bonus from strongheart/human.

Max my charisma.

Other side, take Favored Soul.

I have +10 Battle Plate of Heavy Fortification.

I have a Universal energy Immunity Ring.

I take the Planar Racial Class on FS side at level 10.

I then take the Celestial Paragon template.

I am immortal again.


So... how is DR0 broken?

[Madara]

Look team good, Evil is using this time to figure out strategies and plans of action. They're even coming up with cool combos. If you guys want any chance, I suggest moving on and working on strategy.

[Matamane]

there's like 3 members left on team good...so it's not like it's going to be a difficult fight.

[Ralasha]

That's possible. Easily, you may win right off the bat. Or, you may find us a bit more challenging than you would like to think. We'll find out.

[Madara]

Originally Posted by Ralasha

That's possible. Easily, you may win right off the bat. Or, you may find us a bit more challenging than you would like to think. We'll find out.

You do realize I'm not in team evil? I'm the Co-GM...
Although, that would make me evil...

[Ralasha]

As I said:

Originally Posted by Ralasha

That's possible. Easily, you may win right off the bat. Or, you may find us a bit more challenging than you would like to think. We'll find out.

[silphael]

I'm still here, but yes, we're something like three atm...

[greenpotato]

I'm here too, that makes 4

Plan, plan what?

Spoiler

Fluffwise
Gerta Lives in solitude in her mountainside forest, she will not come down for just anything but if a message from her god or another good aligned hero asked her to do something she would probably do it.
She is not planning to take over the world or anything but will act in a reactionary way if she gets wind of team evil up to no good.


Mechanically
I can cast some blasty spells

Spoiler

Quickened Maximised Enhanced Cones of Cold

and do ok melee damage

Spoiler

200ish-300ish at +70-80ish

but not optimised either way. I focused on defences, which are nigh untouchable.
I can cast a lot of healing and always have the option to turn into a radiant dragon so I can grant essentially endless healing so I have healing down pat (Plus healing Lorecall for status cures)
Infiltration will be easy as either a force dragon to pass straight through walls of force or as a sunwyrm to pass through walls of Iron. I have no homebase like all of team evil seem to so I am quite happy to be the homewrecker on the offensive going around slaughtering their minions and tearing down their expensive towers. I'm pretty sure nothing non-epic is going to be a threat to any of us so we should be able to wade through the enemy army.
I also took the Spell pen and Initiative auras for my marshal levels, this means I grant the party a +24 to initiative or +24 to spell penetration depending on need.

[Ralasha]

And looking at all of you My character feels extremely inadequate, yet I get grouched at. [rant]Yes, because I having the weakest character in the group (even WITH Divine Ranks) am somehow a gamebreaking powergamer. Right?

Because obviously, my character (the easiest one to kill) is the most powerful (with the least damage, attack bonus, and AC). After all! I have an Aura that deals 3d6 damage to evil, and 3d8 to evil outsiders and undead! I'm so broken!

I mean, that aura is SO much more powerful than having infinite heal everyone (radiant Dragon) or Immunity to Force Effects (Force Dragon) It isn't like a maximized Force Missile Spell is going to hurt me (yes it is). I'm so glad everyone decided I'm so broken I needed nerfing. Thank you.[/rant]

I'm going to make now, a different character. It will have no homebrew involved, however, seeing what this is looking like, I'm going to make a character with a bit more ab, multiple attacks a round, and a lot more damage (every round).

I am a Woodling Half-Celestial Deathless Good Lich; AL: NG (Due to Deathless)
Dread Necromancer 20/War Priest (I think it's called)//Cleric 30

My domains are Sun, Healing, and War.
I have a permanent Emanation (Aura Against Evil), Permanent Emanation (Aura of Vitality), and A Permanent Aura of Turning Undead (At a total level of 46, with 12+30 for turning damage, all turned undead are instead destroyed)

I will have immunity to Negative Energy (As a lich) which will grant me immunity to rebukes. I am healed by positive energy, and am immune to turning checks (As per deathless).

Any issues so far?

[greenpotato]

Yeah, a half celestial is an inherited template making you an outsider. Only humanoids can become liches so you can't actually be a celestial lich.