Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

[Thufir]

Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl

'A Town Called Mercy' (season 7a, ep. 3)

Spoiler

Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl

D: "Tea. With the strong stuff. Leave the bag in." Excuse me while I go die.

Yes, I loved that. The whole sequence, the Doctor was playing into Western stereotypes, with the cocktail stick in his mouth, entering the saloon and everyone staring at him, swaggering up to the bar, and I was just thinking it'd seem kind of odd for him to keep going with this and order whisky or something so is he instead going to do something more quirky and Doctor-ish? And look what happened.

Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl

What is it with the bad grammar? 'Is you an alien?'

I'm gonna go with Western stereotypes again.

Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl

And his distraction is having the sheriff and Rory . . . I think? - My telly's freezing up something wicked - run pell mell through the desert. And seeing as Kryten's HUD informed him 87% chance of injuring an innocent I was so right.

I never entirely understood that though. He could see neither of them was Jex, so surely it was a 100% chance, unless he thought one of them wasn't an innocent (And that seemed to be borne out in the subsequent bits of him finding his target - Rory - when they were hiding behind the rock. But why would he decide to go for Rory specifically?)

Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl

And this doctor just so happens to be a father?! BULL. He's telling fibby pops!

Well he said "in a manner of speaking", so I immediately figured he meant he was the 'father' of the cyborg.

Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl

"Yes. Good point Susan" REFERENCE TO 'THE GUNFIGHTERS' OR AT LEAST THE FIRST DOCTOR.

The Gunfighters was after Susan had left the TARDIS. Might even be a complete coincidence that was the name of the horse.

Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl

Mother's

Originally Posted by CurlyKitGirl

mother's

Twice in quick succession. The end is nigh.

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

Here is a list of all the Dr Who (New) eps worthy of a Sunken Valley 10/10. Apologies to all the 9/10s not on the list. Let me know if you think I'm missing anything and I can acknowledge that it's a 9.

Rose
Possibly Dalek
Possibly Blink
Midnight
Turn Left
Possibly Waters of Mars
Doctor's Wife
Town Called Mercy

Hmm. Interesting that all those are episodes I would agree are actually really good.

Originally Posted by Cen

Mercy:
[spoiler]Soooo is it just my impression or is Carla very very very similiar with The Doctor, but on a little bit smaller scale?
Carla created cyborgs who killed milions to save bilions
Doctor created The Moment and killed bilions to save trilions

like... to much similiar? I regred it wasn't explored more ;(([/SPOILER

Spoiler

Well of course Jex made that comparison himself, saying looking at the Doctor was like looking in a mirror. But yeah, I felt maybe they could've done a little more than it.

[dps]

Originally Posted by Cen

well ok - regarding my previous post - I don't actually count SitL as 'River Song' episode, because it was before River was MarySue'd with 11

Yeah, I can agree with the general sentiment. By the time of last year's finale, I was sick of her, but in all honesty I didn't really start to feel that way until after "Let's Kill Hitler".

The only Nu Who episodes I'd give a 10 to are "The Empty Child" and "The Girl Who Waited" (with the caveat that there are a few of Ten's episodes I've still not had the opportunity to watch), but I have tough standards to give out a 10. I don't think I've seen an episode of any other show I'd give a 10 to in the last 10 years.

IMO, "A Town Called Mercy" is the 3rd best episode so far this year, but the other 2 were either 9s or strong 8s, so there's no shame in being 3rd in this group.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Originally Posted by Thufir

Spoiler

I never entirely understood that though. He could see neither of them was Jex, so surely it was a 100% chance, unless he thought one of them wasn't an innocent (And that seemed to be borne out in the subsequent bits of him finding his target - Rory - when they were hiding behind the rock. But why would he decide to go for Rory specifically?)

Spoiler

He was constantly looking for Jex by scanning for the tattoo, so I'm fairly sure he couldn't just ID Jex on sight from that far away, which is why dressing up in Jex's clothes fooled him. The "87% chance of hitting an innocent" was thus his HUD telling him he only had a 23% chance of shooting the person he thought was Jex without hitting an innocent bystander.

As for why he went for Rory, I don't think he was targeting Rory. He saw "Jex" duck behind a rock, the heartbeat matching "Jex" was closer to him, so he figured he could shoot "Jex" without hitting the bystander. That Rory wasn't completely in cover was coincidental.

[SuperPanda]

Thoughts on Mercy:

Spoiler

Accents and Voice-over: Normally British actors do such a good job with accents that I never really care where the actor is from because they still sound wonderful. Hugh Laurie in particular is absolutely amazing both on Black Adder and on House and I never once question the nationality of the character.

The sheriff was good in this episode as were the "alien" characters (basically anyone who had a name instead of a description). The towns people though... I've never cringed or felt insulted at someone trying to "speak American" before. I know that the western genre isn't populated with people who have had much in the way of schooling or much concern for grammar... but that was annoying to the point of grating on me in every single scene. The worst part of it was that it wasn't consistent. The "average" people would talk as if they were in open rebellion of grammar and all it stood for while the Sheriff spoke cleanly, with the proper inflection, and didn't come off sounding like he'd been expelled from kindergarten for poor performance.

This was not something I enjoyed. I would have rather had all of the Americans speaking with cockney accents. Its a British show and I love listening to the various English accents anyway.

Voice over also didn't accomplish anything. It can be used well, this time it really felt out of no where unless they plan on going back to Mercy for the gunslinger to be of major importance later in the season. So far Moffat doesn't seem to use episodes written by his guest writers as major plot points, though they sometimes contribute to the finale, the important connecting scenes are in episodes he writes himself - likely so that he doesn't have to tell anyone what he's planning.

Keep-Out / Leave the bag in/ He shoots hats?: I loved the little bits of the Doctor just having fun with his genre. The Keep-Out sign was just plain silly, though I'm not sure why Amy and Rory would even bother noticing at this point, considering neither of them should have any expectation of the Doctor following instructions.

I loved the Doctor's bar scene, though I think it missed a small trick. I absolutely love it when a character like the Doctor plays into those conventions and then the show makes a point of throwing it back in a different direction.

In the Empty Child Doc: "It's Mauve and Dangerous."
Rose: "Mauve?"
Doc: "Universally recognized color for danger."
Rose: "What happened to Red?"
Doc: "Oh that's just humans, for everyone else it means camp. Oh the misunderstandings, all that singing and dancing."

I think having the Doctor saunter in and have either of the following happen would have added a nice punctuation to the scene (before continuing as before):
1) Rory gets all flustered and embarassed having tried to explain that the real world doesn't work like movies, only to have everyone act exactly like a movie and him looking on bewildered. (Arthur Darvil does that sort of thing very well and is a great comedic counterpoint to the silly).
2) The Doctor Saunters in and does a bad "Western" accent and person but nobody understands him until he speaks properly again.

The hat-shooting is one of the funnier memes in 11's run. When he got the hat with the bullet hole in it I half expected him to keep it and then have it be the same hat from last year's opening episode... then I remembered that this doctor has already lived through that doctor's life/death and that as wibbly/wobbly as the show can be they have yet to get that bizarre.

Alien Doctor: The green tattoo is distracting if only because it is implied to both be unique to the character and somehow significant of the character's race.

All in all I felt it a little too obvious early on where he was going, and a little too abrupt that he had his change of heart when he did. He went from hiding out and acting as though he genuinely felt he was a virtuous victim to noble self sacrifice. I would have liked it a bit better if his "I did what had to be done" bits were a little more trying to convince himself than trying to convince other people. - drawing out the episode a day or two so that you could have a scene with him crying at night or waking up after a nightmare would lead into the awesome conversation he had and make the morally grey areas but more poignant.

The Mother issue:

I agree with Curly, and I'm a guy. Actually I find that to be the overall theme with Moffat's Feminism. He writes Feminist "types" and presents them as though saying woman = strong or mother = special is the same as supporting women (Yes I know Moffat didn't write the episode, whitehouse did, but I don't believe that the show runner doesn't look over the script). I'm not a woman, and I still find it annoying and degrading to get that kind of rhetoric handed down when you could instead have someone who is a strong character regardless of their gender or someone who is special regardless of their parental status.

For all their "Damsel in Distress" moments, I think the Davies era companions did a better job at treating their gender as just a part of the person instead of a defining characteristic. There was a share of helpless/whiny men (brain boy from Dalek and the following episode, Mickey, Rattigen from season 4 two parter) Davies's personal trap was that the Doctor was special and the companion was there to motivate the doctor, often meaning that the companion's safety served as an obstacle for the doctor. This continued with Wilf and any number of temporary companions. I'd mention that everyone seems to be in love with the Doctor, as in acts like they'd be ready to jump him given an opportunity, even Jack, but Moffat's no better about that.

Susan the Horse: The only moment in the epsiode that got me to laugh out loud.

Preacher: His name is Joshua, its from the Bible. It means Deliverer.
Doctor: No it isn't, I speak horse. Its Susan, and he wants you to respect his life choices.

So much about that throwaway gag is hilarious to me. These are the moments of wit I watch Doctor Who for.

Doctor with a gun (10 or not so 10?): He had a gun, but he also had his angsty face on. He was ready to kill someone who had killed and harmed many innocent people before. He wasn't just going to kill him, he was going to stand there implacably and watch the person get killed because he was in his dark and angsty mode. He had a red-head female companion talk him down from being all angry and angsty, and told him he was like that because he traveled alone.

I think it was one of the moments were Smith's Doctor was the closest to 10s he's been in a long while. 10's whole "no guns" thing could have been handled a lot better. A big part of it was that he knew full well that he wouldn't need them, that he was more than capable of wiping out who species without using traditional weapons. As is often pointed out 10 wasn't a pacifist, not nearly as much as he liked to pretend. He was an angry and vengful god, but he wanted to make his adversary choose death. That was how 10 moralized / rationalized, his guilt away. At the end of his run it was catching up to him. Now we've got 11 still running from the same guilt.

Its a fun story, but unless it ends with the Valyard I don't see them being able to find a resolution for it anywhere and it keeps being a subtler point of the Doctor's character.

Also the Doctor's own: Justice doesn't work like that. You don't get to choose your punishment... that came off as hipocracy since the Doctor's been running from his guilt for a long time now.

Weight of the souls: Very nice bit of conversation there, really liked that part of the episode. Not much to say other than this was very good. I'd have liked a little more decent from righteous pride to acceptance of his sins for Jex, but the death of Issac was a great catalyst for this scene.

The plan: That was hilarious and wonderfully Doctor-ish. Seriously they could have done more with that and I'd have been very happy.

Resolution: Not sure how they could have ended it better, it just felt a bit abrupt to me.

Overall thoughts- A good episode, not great, not bad. Nothing on part with Dinosaurs (Awesome episodes with an iffy Neffie). Not as enjoyable while watching as Asylum, but far more rewarding to have watched once your brain starts thinking about it.

Last thought: Please never do an American episode again if the accents are going to be like that. The New York accents in Daleks of Manhattan were also sterotyped, but not as obnoxious. We can do those, but please no more "Is you gonna get us dead".

[Calemyr]

Synopsis of A Town Called Mercy:

Spoiler

Chrichton and the Doctor seek a way to save the doctor from Kryton.

I liked this episode quite a bit, but that's probably because I'm a bit of a Browder fanboy (second only to Claudia Black, really).

On the whole, however, I'm still a little at odds with this season so far. Everything is too big, it seems to take itself just a little too seriously. It's a show about a time hopping, meddling miscreant who changes actors whenever he dies and dies whenever he changes actors. This is a show that should enjoy itself, not take itself too seriously.

In regards to the Doctor's continued darkening, that's not really a surprise, is it? We've known since the days of #6 that he's heading for a level of darkness that will spawn the Knacker's Yard Valeyard. He's still got a further to fall before that's plausible - his dark side still has too much fun to be the Valeyard.

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Thufir

Hmm. Interesting that all those are episodes I would agree are actually really good.

Thanks. I'd very much like to see your list of 10/10 Who episodes, if you have one.

Now for my review.

Town Called Mercy

Spoiler

Stuff I liked

Spoiler

The excellent use of the tropes of the Western setting making it a good themed episode where they didn't get bored and change the setting. Take that Curse of the Black Spot!

The convincing moral dilemma which does not have a real answer. Take that Girl Who Waited! Also made the Doctor morally ambiguous as well. I think 11 is the only Doctor I do not know if he would kill or save the villain.

Good acting, even from Amy.

Companions didn't do too much or too little.

Went the extra mile to make you think, unlike Dinosaurs on a Spaceship

Didn't have any plot holes.

Dark, but with funny bits. Remember, The Classic Doctor was only funny as 2, 3 and 4.

Responses to "flaws" of the episode

Spoiler

The Mother line: I just saw it as a way to get the scientist to give his foreshadowing.

The Voiceover: Lots of Westerns had narrators. Also, the voice sounds a bit like Alex Kingston not River Song. Two different people.

Wonder what Kobold Bard thought

10/10.

@Calemyr: The Valeyard was a fusion of Doctors 12 and 13. 12 will probably be a more po-faced Doctor than 11 based on trends.

[Calemyr]

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

@Calemyr: The Valeyard was a fusion of Doctors 12 and 13. 12 will probably be a more po-faced Doctor than 11 based on trends.

The actual phrasing was that he came from the Doctor "between the Doctors twelfth and final incarnations". As if to say he was the Doctor's dark side given actual corporeal existence during the final regeneration.

Of course, the Master could have been trying to be intentionally vague, as well, meaning that the Schoolyard was born of the Doctor at any point in #12's or #13's reign. I mean, (they didn't know it at the time), but the Master was predicting events from across a time war and big bang 2.

Of course, this could also mean that #13 may end up to be a bigger sweetheart since #2. Has there been anyone more genuinely sweet than the recorder wielding clown?

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally Posted by Calemyr

Synopsis of A Town Called Mercy:

Spoiler

Chrichton Cam Mitchell and the Doctor seek a way to save the doctor from Kryton.

Fixed that for you...! (SG-1 is like my second favourite sci-fi show, only superseded by B5!)

Originally Posted by Calemyr

I liked this episode quite a bit, but that's probably because I'm a bit of a Browder fanboy (second only to Claudia Black, really).

I'm sorta surprised that we seemed to be the only two who thought it was noteworthy...!

Originally Posted by Calemyr

In regards to the Doctor's continued darkening, that's not really a surprise, is it? We've known since the days of #6 that he's heading for a level of darkness that will spawn the Knacker's Yard Valeyard. He's still got a further to fall before that's plausible - his dark side still has too much fun to be the Valeyard.

Oh, I sooo want them to address this in show at the requisite point. Ever since I saw the Valeyard, I wanted to see that; it's such an awesome concept!



It's easy to grade my 10/10 episodes, you don't even need me to list 'em... It runs like this: does it have Daleks in it? Then it's probably a 10/10 (or maybe and 11/10...) Notable exception for A Good Man Goes to War because of Last Centurion Awesome.

[dps]

Speaking as an American, the accents didn't bother me all that much--they were better than the "American" accents in some past Doctor Who episodes. OTOH, there's no excuse for them not to use American actors for American parts--it's not like there are no American ex-pats in Britian or Spain, and anyway, if you can afford to hire Ben Browder, you can afford to hire unknown American actors for bit parts.

OTOH (oops, ran out of hands), hiring Americans actors doesn't guarantee getting everything right. For example, there have been negative comments on the

Spoiler

"Is you an alien"

line, yet that was probably how it was scripted, not a strange choice by the actor.

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally Posted by dps

Speaking as an American, the accents didn't bother me all that much--they were better than the "American" accents in some past Doctor Who episodes. OTOH, there's no excuse for them not to use American actors for American parts--it's not like there are no American ex-pats in Britian or Spain, and anyway, if you can afford to hire Ben Browder, you can afford to hire unknown American actors for bit parts.

OTOH (oops, ran out of hands), hiring Americans actors doesn't guarantee getting everything right. For example, there have been negative comments on the

Spoiler

"Is you an alien"

line, yet that was probably how it was scripted, not a strange choice by the actor.

On the other hand, those of you twitching at the bad American accents now know what we feel like when ever an English person (which you always call British, despite that fact that "British" covers the Welsh, Scottish, Manx and (Northern) Irish, whom you typically call out seperately) comes along with in your shows with an unconvincing, usually steriotypical upperclass cut-glass or cockney accent...!

[Eldan]

Liked it. Very heavy-handed, but fun overall.

Little fun fact of this episode: Kryten's scan reveals "Target is bicardial" when scanning the Doctor.

[Kato]

Before we get to the episode...

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

Here is a list of all the Dr Who (New) eps worthy of a Sunken Valley 10/10. Apologies to all the 9/10s not on the list. Let me know if you think I'm missing anything and I can acknowledge that it's a 9.

Rose
Possibly Dalek
Possibly Blink
Midnight
Turn Left
Possibly Waters of Mars
Doctor's Wife
Town Called Mercy

Sometimes I like arguing a bit too much... It's been too long since I last saw Rose so I won't comment on that. Midnight had some pretty strong points but I hate how it didn't properly resolve what was gong on. I usually don't mind some mystery but there it really bugged me. Turn Left was just... it felt like filler. It was fun to watch but nowhere near a 10/10 if I was prone to rate episodes in that fashion. And Waters of Mars was just disappointing especially the finale. It wasn't terrible but considering it was one of three episodes we got that year (or four?) it just fell flat.


Okay, as for my opinion on this week: It was good. It had some really nice things and very little I would really feel I need to complain. Yeah, the companions were mostly useless except for Amy's speech to the Doctor (which I think was already held in... Beast Below? Not exactly but the "you need companions" bit. This made it a little weak but overall it was okay.
The basic premise of the episode just had one flaw to me... Gunslinger did have a few chances to shoot... Kahler (hehe, "kahler" means "balder" in German. I thought I misread the name when it appeared but it's really his name) but didn't do it. Like just before he announced his return at noon. But I'll ignore that.
Two minor complaints about the resolution... it wasn't the Doctor's best choice. I guess bringing him to the proper authorities and possibly restoring the Gunslinger would have been the ideal solution but I can live with what happened. And I felt there was a little too much emphasis on the explosion. It... I don't know. It's minor. But I just wasn't totally satisfied with the scene.

But yeah, I really liked the episode, not AMAZING but good and mostly flawless. I wasn't here last week but I felt Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was just much too average.


So... who's this Kryton/Kryten/??? person. I checked Brooke's imdb and entry and fail to find any such character.
I liked Browder's character but with long hair and beard it was impossible to recognize him (for me anyway)

I'll agree with Curly that fathers and other people can be just as ferocious and whatever as mothers but it's such a common thing in fiction to put mothers on such a pedestal... I would neither hold it against Moffat or Whithouse to use the line to build up to Kahler's reveal. (Neither do I feel the show is that strong on poorly done feminism but I tend to ignore that stuff anyway)

[factotum]

Originally Posted by Kato

So... who's this Kryton/Kryten/??? person.

He was the humanoid robot from Red Dwarf. Not the same actor, though--Kryten was played by David Ross on his first appearance in season 2 and by Robert Llewellyn at all points thereafter; I don't think the character looks all that similar either, to be honest, so why the name keeps coming up has me baffled.

[Corvus]

Originally Posted by Kato

So... who's this Kryton/Kryten/??? person. I checked Brooke's imdb and entry and fail to find any such character.
I liked Browder's character but with long hair and beard it was impossible to recognize him (for me anyway)

Kryten is the android from the Red Dwarf series, a somewhat neurotic service mechanoid. One episode has them in an artificial reality of a western where Kryten is drunken sheriff.

I had np problem recognising Browder, but then I am a big Farscape/Stargate fan. Now if only we could get Claudia Black on the show...

[Philistine]

Bit of a Failed Aesop there.

Spoiler

"Violence never solves violence," huh? Let's review very quickly, shall we, the events presented in the episode. The Kahlers' cyborgs DID end their decade-long war, and quickly too - violence, resolved by violence. Then the rogue cyborg's quest for vengeance against its creators DID end with the violent death of his target - self-inflicted violent death to be sure, but even so the solution was violence. I just wonder whether anyone involved in the production of the episode actually realized that the events of the story flatly contradict the philosophy the writers put in our heroes' mouths - if so, then it's brilliant (but they might want to consider tipping their hand a bit more in the future, so that audiences can tell they're not trying to play that straight), but if not? So disappointing.

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Bit of a Failed Aesop there.

Spoiler

"Violence never solves violence," huh? Let's review very quickly, shall we, the events presented in the episode. The Kahlers' cyborgs DID end their decade-long war, and quickly too - violence, resolved by violence. Then the rogue cyborg's quest for vengeance against its creators DID end with the violent death of his target - self-inflicted violent death to be sure, but even so the solution was violence. I just wonder whether anyone involved in the production of the episode actually realized that the events of the story flatly contradict the philosophy the writers put in our heroes' mouths - if so, then it's brilliant (but they might want to consider tipping their hand a bit more in the future, so that audiences can tell they're not trying to play that straight), but if not? So disappointing.

Spoiler

Violence is the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against a person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment or deprivation. So no, the scientists death wasn't violence.

And we also don't know the consequences of that war. Maybe they had another one later.

@Kato: I kinda think the point of Midnight was the unknown is the true monster. Also, the human race. Turn Left wasn't filler. It was a masterclass of continuity porn. Water's of Mars...Darkest ep of Doctor Who in a long time. Then again only a possibly on my list.

[dps]

Originally Posted by Kato

Before we get to the episode...

Two minor complaints about the resolution... it wasn't the Doctor's best choice. I guess bringing him to the proper authorities and possibly restoring the Gunslinger would have been the ideal solution but I can live with what happened.

What proper authorities? Jex's crimes were committed on his homeworld, but he was considered a hero there for what he did, not a criminal.

[Dienekes]

So, just saw last episode

Spoiler

It was the Doctor against RoboCop in an old Western shoot out, how do they screw that up?

Honestly, this had everything set up to be a great episode, an interesting location, a ridiculously awesome idea, and some philosophical themes to tie it all together in a nice bow tie. But nothing really seemed to work, the episode just felt off for me. The dialogue felt rushed and halfhearted, the Hannibal Lecter speech in the prison didn't do anything for me (and I love a good villain speech), I felt nothing when the sheriff died (except for being vaguely amused that these future weapons that ended a war in a week apparently take a full minute to kill someone at point blank range) and throughout the whole "No we do things differently" section I kept thinking to myself "Didn't you sic a nuke on someone last episode?" and "Didn't you essentially wipe out the Time Lords to save the Universe? Even the good ones which you admit still existed? Kettle this is pot, I just wanted to say you're black." Really, it felt almost as forced and hypocritical as whenever 10 started talking about how much he disliked guns while Earth was being invaded by an army.

It's kind of sad for me. I'm ridiculously easy to amuse, Hell I don't even have a problem with the much reviled River Song, and while I'd admit there's been problems in Moffat's run, I've enjoyed the wild insane ride. Eleven has been my favorite Doctor, and Amy and Rory have become my favorite companions. I want their last hurrah on the show together to be amazing, but so far I haven't been impressed.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Bit of a Failed Aesop there.

Well, of course violence can solve violence. I think it was V hirself who said "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." (Dang, had to look it up) And even realistically, yes, if you kill enough people violence will end, or at least the immediate violence will. Yet, a) this is not a good lesson and b) the violence doesn't permanently cease, unless you use real big violence. The Gunslinger continued the violence done to him, we don't know what happened after the war. Or may happen in the future. And as Sunken said... the even wasn't really violence in that sense. Yeah, the Aesop wasn't perfect but you don't use the Aesop "Kill stuff and things get better!"

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

@Kato: I kinda think the point of Midnight was the unknown is the true monster. Also, the human race. Turn Left wasn't filler. It was a masterclass of continuity porn. Water's of Mars...Darkest ep of Doctor Who in a long time. Then again only a possibly on my list.

Okay, I guess continuity porn it was as well... but that doesn't make a perfect episode. I'd say it felt like it didn't serve as much for the plot as it could but in Who that'd be a poor complaint.
And again, I liked Midnight in general but I really wanted to know what the purpose of... whatever was. I hate stuff being evil just because.

Originally Posted by dps

What proper authorities? Jex's crimes were committed on his homeworld, but he was considered a hero there for what he did, not a criminal.

Did they say he was considered a hero? If so the have some messed up morals there and I missed it, sorry. I guess there are other planets that could hold a proper court over him.

Originally Posted by Dienekes

Spoiler

...and throughout the whole "No we do things differently" section I kept thinking to myself "Didn't you sic a nuke on someone last episode?" and "Didn't you essentially wipe out the Time Lords to save the Universe? Even the good ones which you admit still existed? Kettle this is pot, I just wanted to say you're black." Really, it felt almost as forced and hypocritical as whenever 10 started talking about how much he disliked guns while Earth was being invaded by an army.

I'm pretty sure it was kind of the point of the episode to say that the Doctor's neither black nor white. He sometimes does bad things and then he needs someone to remind him what's the proper thing to do. Like Amy did. Grey morality and stuffs.

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by Kato

...

Did they say he was considered a hero? If so the have some messed up morals there and I missed it, sorry. I guess there are other planets that could hold a proper court over him.

...

Spoiler

As I understand it, the populace Disney know about the torture involved in making the cyborgs. All they knew was that Jex and his team ended a 9 year war in a week. I'd consider him a bit of a hero if I was from his world.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Originally Posted by Kato

Did they say he was considered a hero? If so the have some messed up morals there and I missed it, sorry. I guess there are other planets that could hold a proper court over him.

Spoiler

He himself said he was considered a war hero on his homeworld. Granted, considering he says it himself it's worth taking with a tiny grain of salt. But either way there has to be some proper authorities somewhere. A space version of Geneva or something.

[dps]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

Spoiler

As I understand it, the populace Disney know about the torture involved in making the cyborgs.

?Huh? ?Say what?

[Androgeus]

Originally Posted by dps

?Huh? ?Say what?

I guess Disney is a accidental auto correct, most likely it was meant to be didn't

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Kato

Well, of course violence can solve violence. I think it was V hirself who said "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." (Dang, had to look it up) And even realistically, yes, if you kill enough people violence will end, or at least the immediate violence will. Yet, a) this is not a good lesson and b) the violence doesn't permanently cease, unless you use real big violence. The Gunslinger continued the violence done to him, we don't know what happened after the war. Or may happen in the future. And as Sunken said... the even wasn't really violence in that sense. Yeah, the Aesop wasn't perfect but you don't use the Aesop "Kill stuff and things get better!"

But if you're trying to make an aesop it's generally best if your story follows that aesop, or you're making it clear that these are just varying ideologies and the situation is far more complicated than ever saying one thing is always right and/or always wrong. Which I think they were trying to go for, but it didn't really come out all that well.

I'm pretty sure it was kind of the point of the episode to say that the Doctor's neither black nor white. He sometimes does bad things and then he needs someone to remind him what's the proper thing to do. Like Amy did. Grey morality and stuffs.

I agree, I just think it was handled rushed and poorly, and as presented makes the Doctor look like an outrageous hypocrite.

Originally Posted by dps

?Huh? ?Say what?

Didn't you realize? The other doctor worked for Disney animatronics division. The experiments were to end the war against Time Warner. Unfortunately early cyborgs grafting together Disney workers with Mickey Mouse proved less than successful eventually leading to the gunslinger models.

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by Androgeus

I guess Disney is a accidental auto correct, most likely it was meant to be didn't

Yeah, that.

[Weezer]

Originally Posted by NikitaDarkstar

Spoiler

He himself said he was considered a war hero on his homeworld. Granted, considering he says it himself it's worth taking with a tiny grain of salt. But either way there has to be some proper authorities somewhere. A space version of Geneva or something.

So something like the vague Shadow Proclimation we've seen mentioned a bunch of times?

[NikitaDarkstar]

Originally Posted by Weezer

So something like the vague Shadow Proclimation we've seen mentioned a bunch of times?

Something like that yhea, except I've always gotten the feeling that The Shadow Proclimation really doesn't get involved all that often.

[Philistine]

Per Dictionary.com:

Violence noun
1) swift and intense force
2) rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment
3) an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws

Notice a phrase that's not[ included in any of the top three definitions of the word?

Spoiler

Yes, the Kahler doctor's suicide was a violent death; and so the central conflict of the "violence is never the answer" episode was resolved with violence.

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Per Dictionary.com:

Violence noun
1) swift and intense force
2) rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment
3) an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws

Notice a phrase that's not[ included in any of the top three definitions of the word?

Spoiler

Yes, the Kahler doctor's suicide was a violent death; and so the central conflict of the "violence is never the answer" episode was resolved with violence.

If swift and intense force is the case, is clearing rocks or moving heavy objects violence? None of these definitions are the actions of the scientist.

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

If swift and intense force is the case, is clearing rocks or moving heavy objects violence? None of these definitions are the actions of the scientist.

Actually they are if the scientist can be seen as the initiator and the target of violence. Which can be called "violence against oneself" such as cutting on yourself or in this much grander case, going boom.