Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Ailurus

In Gil's defense, he is very unexperienced in the whole weapons o doom category. After all, when the slaver wasps got loose on Castle Wulfenbach, the only weapons he had were a few fencing swords. So, for a first try, the Lightning Wand is a pretty good start.

And agatha had more experience in death rays? She was a research assistant that lived with a mute blacksmith and his wife.

[Traab]

Im still waiting to see if this will be coming into play, if the bastard will show up again and cause new problems.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Traab

And agatha had more experience in death rays? She was a research assistant that lived with a mute blacksmith and his wife.

She was a research assistant at one of the premier universities for Sparky Science.

She was also a nascent Spark, she couldn't focus, but she spent all her time absorbing information. Also, remember Dr. Beetle knew who she was, it's possible he had been grooming her that entire time, intentionally exposing her to a wide variety of sciences so that when she overcame her locket/was ready to remove it, she would be prepared.

Concerning Tarvek, I don't see how anybody can claim he's not a spark. He hasn't gone to the Madness Place yet, but neither has Klaus, and nobody is doubting HIS sparkiness. He didn't just adapt a Van Rinji, he studied it, then built a new one to serve as a puppet/life support system. Studying a Van Rinji is a huge challenge in of itself, building a new clank with a similar level of finesse is unheard of. If may not be as physically impressive as, say, Castle Wulfenbach, but the concept is similar: Take existing technology (Clank, Airship), and do something extraordinary with it (Turn it into a surrogate body/ a flying castle). In fact, what Tarvek did is MORE extraordinary, all Klaus had to do was make the Castle big. Tarvek had to make his clank function as a surrogate body.
I would actually call Tarvek about equal to Gil in terms of Strength of Spark. However, they are representative of two different styles of Spark.
Tarvek, despite being raised as a vassal, is the Aristocratic Spark, holed up in their castle lab, building elegant designs and keeping their monsters locked away. Gil, despite being raised as the heir to an empire, is more like your classic Wild Spark, striding into battle with a superweapon at his side.

Really, Agatha is the only spark we've seen capable of pulling off Spontaneous Superscience. We've seen other sparks show up, having built amazing things in a lab, and we've seen other sparks Macguyver together some devices, but Agatha is the only one who builds death rays spontaneously.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

So, the fact that Tarvek not only managed to study & learn from a Van Rijn without destroying it -- a feat unmatched by generations of Master Sparks -- is not enough? Or that he was able to create a truly sentient clank with nothing more than that knowledge? If Tarvek is not truly a potent Spark, then what about those past Masters?

No, I don't consider that enough, because that is not how I see it. I see that he did a lesser copy of an existing tech. He had to slave his clank to a real human brain, merely giving it the ability to slowly learn from it. Van Rijn created a much better clank with above human intelligence (including predictive ability and teaching expertise) ex-nihilo, and without having a better clank to copy. Tarvek is nowhere near Van Rijn's expertise from those examples - he just made lesser copies of Van Rijn's work (and couldn't fix the real thing, indicating he is not as good at clank making as Van Rijn), and likely used Lucrezia's mind transfer tech that littered his castle to do the "learn from human brain" part. Nothing there indicates that Tarvek had a single original thought of his own, much less a significant next step.

Edit: and I will add: for all his claims of being the muses' King, the chess muse chose Agatha as the person that could fix them, not him.

Grey Wolf

[petersohn]

Gil's lightning rod has one great disadvantage over death rays. It needs a huge device on the top of the castle to work, which apparently can melt down.

[HandofShadows]

Originally Posted by petersohn

Gil's lightning rod has one great disadvantage over death rays. It needs a huge device on the top of the castle to work, which apparently can melt down.

Really? Don't tell Gil that. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20081110

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

No, I don't consider that enough, because that is not how I see it. I see that he did a lesser copy of an existing tech. He had to slave his clank to a real human brain, merely giving it the ability to slowly learn from it. Van Rijn created a much better clank with above human intelligence (including predictive ability and teaching expertise) ex-nihilo, and without having a better clank to copy. Tarvek is nowhere near Van Rijn's expertise from those examples - he just made lesser copies of Van Rijn's work (and couldn't fix the real thing, indicating he is not as good at clank making as Van Rijn), and likely used Lucrezia's mind transfer tech that littered his castle to do the "learn from human brain" part. Nothing there indicates that Tarvek had a single original thought of his own, much less a significant next step.

Edit: and I will add: for all his claims of being the muses' King, the chess muse chose Agatha as the person that could fix them, not him.

Grey Wolf

The Chess Muse hadn't met him yet. And saying "he's not Van Rinji" isn't saying much. When people spend centuries TRYING to copy somebody's work, I don't think they're a valid comparison. What Van Riji did is amazing, so let's not call Tarvek stupid for not being able to do it too.

And actually, he DID do it. He just didn't mean to. Remember, Anveka clank worked AFTER being severed from it's tank, Anveka had died long ago, the Clank had been operating on it's own.

And you're missing the point. Within the Girl Genius universe, thinking clanks (For a given value of "Thinking") are established technology. Slaving a clank to a human brain is not.

And, really Van Rinji didn't make the first AI. That honor goes to Faustus Heterodyne (I got the impression that Faustus came before Van Rinji, but maybe not).


As I see it, there are several Sparky "Tiers".

Top Tier is the Legendary Sparks who do things nobody else even considered possible. This is like the Nobel Prize, but for Sparkiness. You have Faustus Heterodyne (Der Kestle), Van Riji (The Muses), and Lucretzia (Mind Transfer, and I guess the Wasps).
Slightly below that you have Powerful Sparks: Agatha, Gil, Klaus, and Tarvek. They may eventually become Legendary, but they have not proven it yet. (Though they kind of have, since we saw Agatha's Time Windows, even if she hasn't built it yet, that would count for bringing her up to "Legend" status).
Then you've got the Mid Level Sparks: Theo, Slepnir, the Castle Heterodyne Prisoners, ect.
Below that you've got Minor Sparks: The Circus Folk for example.

[Scarlet Knight]

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

Ah, new comic. And my word, but I'm growing more and more fond of that weasel with every passing strip. Especially the final panel. Hugs!

*ahem*

Also, good, still alive. Yes. Important.

One of Phil Folgio's signs of genius is the ability to take a small insignificant creature such as Growf and make it a scene/heart stealer. It allows any scene to have comic potential.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by BRC

The Chess Muse hadn't met him yet. And saying "he's not Van Rinji" isn't saying much. When people spend centuries TRYING to copy somebody's work, I don't think they're a valid comparison. What Van Riji did is amazing, so let's not call Tarvek stupid for not being able to do it too.

I'm not calling him stupid. I am simply saying it doesn't take a super spark to not-quite copy an existing design.

Originally Posted by BRC

And actually, he DID do it. He just didn't mean to. Remember, Anveka clank worked AFTER being severed from it's tank, Anveka had died long ago, the Clank had been operating on it's own.

And you're missing the point. Within the Girl Genius universe, thinking clanks (For a given value of "Thinking") are established technology. Slaving a clank to a human brain is not.

But we are not talking about a "given value of thinking". We are talking about smarter-than-human clanks. This is not the rather limited clanks we saw at the University or Castle Wulfenbach. Muses are supreme teachers and from what we briefly see in the books, amazing predictors. And what Tarvek built is a lesser copy of it that still needed an actual human brain to be run.

Originally Posted by BRC

And, really Van Rinji didn't make the first AI. That honor goes to Faustus Heterodyne (I got the impression that Faustus came before Van Rinji, but maybe not).

As far as we can tell, Faustus may have beat Lucrezia to mind-machine transfer, not AI. Regardless, Tarvek is none of them.

Originally Posted by BRC

As I see it, there are several Sparky "Tiers".

Top Tier is the Legendary Sparks who do things nobody else even considered possible. This is like the Nobel Prize, but for Sparkiness. You have Faustus Heterodyne (Der Kestle), Van Riji (The Muses), and Lucretzia (Mind Transfer, and I guess the Wasps).
Slightly below that you have Powerful Sparks: Agatha, Gil, Klaus, and Tarvek. They may eventually become Legendary, but they have not proven it yet. (Though they kind of have, since we saw Agatha's Time Windows, even if she hasn't built it yet, that would count for bringing her up to "Legend" status).
Then you've got the Mid Level Sparks: Theo, Slepnir, the Castle Heterodyne Prisoners, ect.
Below that you've got Minor Sparks: The Circus Folk for example.

Agatha has infused clanks with the spark. That, right there, places her in the top ('legend') tier. Klaus probably belongs at the top too, although it is difficult to tell - but as an antagonist, that can be forgiven. And my argument has been that Tarvek, from all we have seen, belongs at best in the mid-level. And I wish he was indeed at that level, showing you can be a not-amazing spark and also a powerful player. But I fear that after all his mediocrity, he will turn out to be a top or supreme level spark, who has just been bidding his time, and that he could have fixed the muse but was just pretending to be incompetent.

Grey Wolf

[Oracle_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

No, I don't consider that enough, because that is not how I see it. I see that he did a lesser copy of an existing tech. He had to slave his clank to a real human brain, merely giving it the ability to slowly learn from it. Van Rijn created a much better clank with above human intelligence (including predictive ability and teaching expertise) ex-nihilo, and without having a better clank to copy. Tarvek is nowhere near Van Rijn's expertise from those examples - he just made lesser copies of Van Rijn's work (and couldn't fix the real thing, indicating he is not as good at clank making as Van Rijn), and likely used Lucrezia's mind transfer tech that littered his castle to do the "learn from human brain" part. Nothing there indicates that Tarvek had a single original thought of his own, much less a significant next step.

OK, so Tarvek is merely sparkier than generations of Master Sparks. But still not a real Spark

Man, "Master Spark" must be a really title to earn

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

OK, so Tarvek is merely sparkier than generations of Master Sparks. But still not a real Spark

Man, "Master Spark" must be a really title to earn

No, Oracle. Just no. I am not denying he is a spark. I am just saying he is a run-of-the-mill spark from all we have seen. If he had fixed the muse, maybe. If he had built something original, maybe. But from all we have seen, he is no better spark than, say, Theo with his grease-pit cleaning machine. I am certainly not saying that he is "sparkier than generations of Master Sparks", so please do not put words in my mouth.

Grey Wolf

[BRC]

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about the Dingbots. Yup, Agatha's Legendary tier already.
The only reason Klaus isn't up there is because I can't think of a single innovation of his that is truly revolutionary. He's done things very, very well (Like Castle Wulfenbach), and if he discovers the Source of the Spark, that will qualify him for being Legendary.
If Klaus was able to spend his time doing research, rather than running the empire, he would probably have hit Legendary Tier.

And the point of the Tiers was that learning from, and adapting the work of Legendary Sparks is in itself a feat. Even if he did just copy Van Riji and Lucretzia, he took the work of TWO legendary sparks, one of which was notoriously difficult to study, and combined them.
And remember, he didn't just take a muse and shove Anveka's brain in it. He built her a new body based on what he learned from studying Van Riji's work. Anveka was, physically anyway, basically a Muse. That is impressive in itself.

You're not questioning Gil's Sparkiness, and his biggest feat was Heavier than air flight, which while amazing, everybody knew was theoretically possible (After all, birds do it). And he didn't get that working until Agatha helped him out (Though he got pretty close, he just had some mechanical issues to work out).

[NEO|Phyte]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

No, Oracle. Just no. I am not denying he is a spark. I am just saying he is a run-of-the-mill spark from all we have seen. If he had fixed the muse, maybe. If he had built something original, maybe. But from all we have seen, he is no better spark than, say, Theo with his grease-pit cleaning machine. I am certainly not saying that he is "sparkier than generations of Master Sparks", so please do not put words in my mouth.

Grey Wolf

Van Riji's work is kind of a big deal, in that the only person we know of that has had any results in studying his clanks other than accidentally destroying them is Tarvek. (One could argue that Lucrezia also managed to not destroy Otilia, but I point out that she wasn't studying the clank, she was using it as a test subject for her organic/clank mindswapping tech) Sure Tinka is still kinda damaged, but that's far better than everyone else has accomplished.

THAT is why people are saying he is a powerful spark.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

I am certainly not saying that he is "sparkier than generations of Master Sparks", so please do not put words in my mouth.

Of course you didn't.

The Foglios did

[Stalkingheron]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

Of course you didn't.

The Foglios did

And they have him doing it at about age 18 without having completed his education because he got hauled back from Paris. And to do what he did he had to combine medical sparking and Van Rijn sparking and come up with a completely novel application.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

Of course you didn't.

The Foglios did

No, they didn't. All that establish is that a spark will likely damage the muse in studying it. Tarvek didn't - good for him. That tells me he is more careful than the average spark, not that he is a powerful spark.

If he could build Van Rijn level clanks, that would be impressive, although not amazing since he is merely copying existing designs. But he didn't even reach that level - he only managed to crib enough to make a lesser copy.

Originally Posted by Stalkingheron

And they have him doing it at about age 18 without having completed his education because he got hauled back from Paris. And to do what he did he had to combine medical sparking and Van Rijn sparking and come up with a completely novel application.

It cannot be novel if he is using Lu's tech that did precisely the same - download a brain into a machine.

But we are going around in circles at this point. I am not convincing you that Tarvek hasn't shown any amazing spark level, and you are not convincing me otherwise. We have each used the same three examples several times back at each other and we obviously see how hard it is to do each one differently. Lets agree to disagree on this.

Grey Wolf

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

Ah, new comic. And my word, but I'm growing more and more fond of that weasel with every passing strip. Especially the final panel. Hugs!

Well every time Tarvek acts against his base nature and does a good act, he gets a happy hug from his Conscience Weasel.

[Stalkingheron]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

No, they didn't. All that establish is that a spark will likely damage the muse in studying it. Tarvek didn't - good for him. That tells me he is more careful than the average spark, not that he is a powerful spark.

If he could build Van Rijn level clanks, that would be impressive, although not amazing since he is merely copying existing designs. But he didn't even reach that level - he only managed to crib enough to make a lesser copy.



It cannot be novel if he is using Lu's tech that did precisely the same - download a brain into a machine.

But we are going around in circles at this point. I am not convincing you that Tarvek hasn't shown any amazing spark level, and you are not convincing me otherwise. We have each used the same three examples several times back at each other and we obviously see how hard it is to do each one differently. Lets agree to disagree on this.

Grey Wolf

(Considers)

Here's my big problem...and, honestly, it is a problem for me. No, obviously I can't "convince you." But as long as you post your evaluation as an objective rather than subjective truth about Tarvek, I suspect I am not the only one who will keep pointing out that the text would appear to suggest otherwise when read in context in the manner the Foglios appear to intend it to be read.

Ultimately *they* are the arbiters regarding what's serious, cutting-edge Extreme Sparking...and the pages folks keep putting up as illustrations would seem to suggest that the take-away message the Foglios intend is that what Tarvek managed to do at the age of 18 without a complete education was something not even the finest sparks had managed in over 200 years, and not for lack of trying. That his spark is quite exceptional.

I'm also likely to keep calling you for double standards, when Agatha and Gil produce derived, adaptive work applied in admittedly novel ways, standing on the shoulders of giants, and you count it as top-rank sparking, but when Tarvek does the same you count it as second-rate work that's merely derivative.

Ok, on top of text provided so far, I'll add *Agatha's* evaluation from the novelization. Her take?

"Agatha regarded the device and the obviously delighted Anevka with awe. 'Your brother has done you proud, your Highness. It's a magnificent feat of medical engineering.'" (Italics mine.)

The clear intention of the authors would seem to be that what Tarvek did is *worth* awe. That it's magnificent. That, as previously suggested, it's a high-water mark not matched in 200 years by the best talent Europa had to offer. Reading the text and comic objectively, interpreting the cues as the Foglios seem to intend them to be interpreted, Tarvek's supposed to be seen as one hot sparky boy, and he's supposed to be seen as such from his very introduction.

That's the core of it. Failure to agree *subjectively* is fine. So "I know what the text says and what the Foglios are trying to suggest, but I don't personally find it convincing" isn't likely to raise any hackles. But *to me* you appear to be twisting the intent of the text to try to prove the exact opposite of what the Fs appear to be trying to establish, and arguing the reverse of the point they're trying to make.

If I concede that there's no way in the world I can change your own perception, and that there's no way I *should* be able to make you change your mind, do you think you can concede that you're making a subjective judgement that differs from the authors' apparent intent? I can easily step back and not battle if this is shifted over to a discussion of subjective grounds and personal responses, but as a matter of objective grounds I not only still think I'm *right*, I think I'm right regarding principles of text analysis that are important to defend.

[HandofShadows]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

As far as we can tell, Faustus may have beat Lucrezia to mind-machine transfer, not AI. Regardless, Tarvek is none of them.

Der Kastel has Faustus's personality, but it is just a COPY of his personality. It's not Faustus himself. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20091104

[HandofShadows]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

No, they didn't. All that establish is that a spark will likely damage the muse in studying it. Tarvek didn't - good for him. That tells me he is more careful than the average spark, not that he is a powerful spark.

If you look at the link even MASTER Sparks have not been able to gain anything from the Muses. Tarvek did something that older, more experienced and better educated sparks could not do. That puts him on a level about them.

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

It cannot be novel if he is using Lu's tech that did precisely the same - download a brain into a machine.

If you would get your facts correct there would not be a problem. The Anevka clank was not a trasfered person. The AI was first put in place as a "helper" for the Anevka. As time went on the person became weaker and weaker and the AI took over more and more. The AI came to think of itself as Anevka, but is in fact a copy. And unintentional copy, but a copy none the less.

[Stalkingheron]

Originally Posted by HandofShadows

Der Kastel has Faustus's personality, but it is just a COPY of his personality. It's not Faustus himself. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20091104

That's apparently what the Lu-downloads are, too, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by HandofShadows

If you look at the link even MASTER Sparks have not been able to gain anything from the Muses. Tarvek did something that older, more experienced and better educated sparks could not do. That puts him on a level about them.

If you look at the link the exact words are "Van Rijn's work is so delicate that even a Master was more likely to destroy it than learn anything". That does not say that "even MASTER Sparks have not been able to gain anything from the Muses". It says that most didn't, not that none did. And as I said above, that is only a measure of how careful they are, not how good sparks.

Originally Posted by HandofShadows

If you would get your facts correct there would not be a problem. The Anevka clank was not a trasfered person. The AI was first put in place as a "helper" for the Anevka. As time went on the person became weaker and weaker and the AI took over more and more. The AI came to think of itself as Anevka, but is in fact a copy. And unintentional copy, but a copy none the less.

And creating copies of the brain is what Lu's technology does. She calls it transference, but since there remains a master copy (or otherwise there wouldn't be three Lu's running around), it is actually just copies. I still see no difference between what Lu did and what Tarvek did later on with access to her tech.

----
Stalkingheron
"do you think you can concede that you're making a subjective judgement that differs from the authors' apparent intent?"

You mean, like I have a billion times already when I have bemoaned that I wish Tarvek wasn't a great spark, even though I am convinced that he will be? Thor be good, I've only stated that in every other post since we started talking. Yes, of course this is my interpretation of the comic. So is everyone else's, unless one of you guys is a Foglio in disguise (and even then...).

My problem, for the final time, is that Tarvek doesn't seem to be that amazing a spark, but I suspect/fear he will be, even though to me it feels like he is just a second rate hack that has barely managed to adapt better spark's work in ways that are not a step forward.

Gil has created heavier-than-air vehicles, which as far as we know are de-novo creations. Inspired on birds, maybe, but not an adaptation of prior spark creations to the best of our knowledge. Agatha has her self-replicating clanks (which may or may not be Van Rijn level, but created independently of him). In adapt plus next step, Gil has the lightning generators, and the improved battle clanks. Agatha her death rays. Tarvek has cribbed a Van Rijn to create a lesser copy and duplicated Lu's tech with access to her originals. I simply don't find that at all as impressive as Gil's or Agatha's accomplishments. But I accept that for others it is. Fair enough.

Grey Wolf

[BRC]

He didn't have access to Lu's originals, those would be in the basement of Castle Heterodyne. We know they had the Brain-Copy machine (the one they used on Agatha), but that wasn't a Lucrezia Original, that was cobbled together with what notes they had (IIRC she mentions that they made it all wrong).
Also, that was dumping a mind into a human body. Transferring a human mind to a clank body would be very different, and while we know Lu was able to do something similar (She was able to transfer a Van Rinji Clank Mind (Ottila) to a Construct Body (Von Pinn) ), the equipment for that was locked away in Castle Heterodyne, Tarvek never saw it.


What bugs me about your post is this

My problem, for the final time, is that Tarvek doesn't seem to be that amazing a spark, but I suspect/fear he will be even though to me it feels like he is just a second rate hack that has barely managed to adapt better spark's work in ways that are not a step forward.

You don't buy that Tarvek is a Powerful (to use my tier list from earlier) spark. Okay, it's possible he just cribbed everything from Lucy, and that building a Van-Riji style clank isn't actually all that difficult if you have one to study. I can accept that you don't see him as a powerful spark right now because he hasn't demonstrated much in the way of real innovation. However, you're also saying you don't WANT him to demonstrate that uniquely Sparky innovation. You're "Afraid" he will be a powerful spark, thus proving you wrong.

You're not afraid he will be TREATED like a powerful spark despite not being one. You're afraid he will BE one, simply because, in your mind, he hasn't proven that he is one just yet. If he DOES innovate (say, with the Wasp Vaccine), does that mean you'll accept him as a powerful spark, or will you get angry that the Foglio's "Made" him a powerful spark.

Did his theories make Einstein a Genius, or was it that Genius that allowed Einstein to develop his theories?

Also, technically we havn't proven anything. You've argued that it's possible Tarvek just copied Lucy and Van Riji's work, and out came Anveka. We know he copied Van Riji, we know he could have had access to some othertech. We don't know that he used said othertech to build Anveka, if he did he never mentioned it.

[Stalkingheron]

So is everyone else's, unless one of you guys is a Foglio in disguise (and even then...).

No, we're not Foglios in disguise. We *are* trying to point out strong recurring indications of what the Foglios are trying to convey that you seem to keep overturning, as though your interpretation trumped their embedded directional signals. That's the core of the problem, for me at least.

But...so long as we can mutually agree that this is your view of the material, not necessarily what the Foglios are trying to convey, this isn't the time or the place to do a more detailed break-down.

I'm sorry you'd prefer the Foglios to be moving in a different direction than they appear to be, and appear to have *always* been. It's tough when a story or character comes out severely differently than you'd hoped for. My condolences on that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by BRC

You're not afraid he will be TREATED like a powerful spark despite not being one. You're afraid he will BE one, simply because, in your mind, he hasn't proven that he is one just yet. If he DOES innovate (say, with the Wasp Vaccine), does that mean you'll accept him as a powerful spark, or will you get angry that the Foglio's "Made" him a powerful spark.

If he is shown innovating, then I will accept he is a powerful spark. I would prefer if he wasn't, and I would like him more if he wasn't (although in a 10-point likeability scale he'll just go from -8 to, say, -3 [-10 = Loathing; 0 = Indifference; 10 = Love]), but I will accept it. I will not be angry with the Foglios. But he is not there yet. And yet we are expected to think of him as if he was - as is obvious from everyone rebutting my posts. But I don't buy this characterisation. Thus, my complaint: that we have been told (Edit: make that "strongly implied") he is a great spark, and yet we have not been shown he is a great spark, IMO.

Originally Posted by BRC

Did his theories make Einstein a Genius, or was it that Genius that allowed Einstein to develop his theories?

Was anyone using Einstein as a paragon of intelligence when he was an unpublished patent clerk?

Originally Posted by BRC

Also, technically we havn't proven anything. You've argued that it's possible Tarvek just copied Lucy and Van Riji's work, and out came Anveka. We know he copied Van Riji, we know he could have had access to some othertech. We don't know that he used said othertech to build Anveka, if he did he never mentioned it.

We know he had access to a lot of Other!tech because that's what the Order did for the last XX years since the Heterodyne Boys disappeared: study and improve Othertech, including such things as the spark bug (which is an interesting innovation). The brain machine in Sturmhalten was decent enough with a close genetic match, so they didn't make that many mistakes - it is just that, as I see it, they are not at Lu's spark level (tying, again, to my main point).

In fact, Lu calls the machines in the Kestle "old tech", and either implies or outright explains (can't remember which) that there are better models elsewhere - and elsewhere would have to be the Order's hands, since they were the ones left in charge of the Other!Tech. And Tarvek had access to most of it, as far as I can tell.

Edit: Another point in favour of Gil's strength as a spark: the whole first chapter of the comic was an extended establishment of Gil's testing. Literally, he was being measured against Klaus' own level, and if he had been found wanting, he'd have been taken apart. We know he is a strong spark because he passed all those amusing tests Klaus set up for him.

Grey Wolf

[Knight13]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

Literally, he was being measured against Klaus' own level, and if he had been found wanting, he'd have been taken apart.

It was some random jager who said that, I wouldn't take it too seriously. There's all kinds of crazy rumors about Klaus in Europa that paint him as a much worse person than he actually is. He may be ruthlessly pragmatic, but he does care about his son.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Knight13

It was some random jager who said that, I wouldn't take it too seriously. There's all kinds of crazy rumors about Klaus in Europa that paint him as a much worse person than he actually is. He may be ruthlessly pragmatic, but he does care about his son.

I'll grant you that last part might have been a tad exaggerated (although only because Klaus has yet to figure out the spark... I wouldn't put it pass him to improve a son found wanting otherwise), but my point about Gil being tested and passing with flying colours stands.

Grey Wolf

[eee]

Originally Posted by BRC

<snip>

As I see it, there are several Sparky "Tiers".

Top Tier is the Legendary Sparks who do things nobody else even considered possible. This is like the Nobel Prize, but for Sparkiness. You have Faustus Heterodyne (Der Kestle), Van Riji (The Muses), and Lucretzia (Mind Transfer, and I guess the Wasps)..

I'm not quite sure Lucrezia belongs here, at least without an asterisk. The mind transfer, yes, THAT was stunning; but it's possible she found some of Faustus' notes no one else had seen and built on them. Or maybe not and it was just her own brilliance; we don't know. But the Wasps. Klaus said the Wasps showed a massive leap in Lu's skill and technology over anything he'd seen before, apparently out of nowhere. We don't know where that came from, whether a window from the future, or a dragon from Mars, or she used her mind transfer tech to somehow boost her own IQ (if so it was just temporary because while she's still a MAJOR Spark she's not smart enough to overcome her own ego or blind spots). There's a piece missing from Lucrezia's story, and until we know what it is we don't know how she's done what she has and become what she has, or why.

(We DO have one third hand indication about that piece, though: When Lu-in-Agatha copied her mind into Zola, Pinkie went through her Auntie's memories and didn't suddenly collapse screaming about visitations from eldritch horrors from beyond time and space. So whatever happened, it wasn't so bizarre Zola couldn't deal with it. On the other hand, given Zola's snake pit of a mind, you have to wonder what she CAN'T deal with...)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by eee

or she used her mind transfer tech to somehow boost her own IQ (if so it was just temporary because while she's still a MAJOR Spark she's not smart enough to overcome her own ego or blind spots).

My own private, barely supported theory is that Lu tried to pull her "bad side" out of her mind to become one of the good guys. That bad side is the Other - a kind of distilled version of Lu's bad side which, out of the constraints of a conscience, managed the massive leap in power.

That said, the comic hints and the book almost outright states that Lu managed to create a pocket reality where time passes more quickly (the "she kept coming to us, never aging" comment by the spider lady). Lu may have had years in that pocket dimension to develop her Othertech, which would explain why from Klaus perspective, not enough time had passed for Lu to improve her tech.

Grey Wolf, hoping these comments don't prove as divisive as his opinion on Tarvek's sparkiness.

[stsasser]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

That said, the comic hints and the book almost outright states that Lu managed to create a pocket reality where time passes more quickly (the "she kept coming to us, never aging" comment by the spider lady). Lu may have had years in that pocket dimension to develop her Othertech, which would explain why from Klaus perspective, not enough time had passed for Lu to improve her tech.

Shouldn't that be 'time passes more slowly' in the pocket reality?