Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

[Porthos]

re today's update.

OK, I'm not the only one who wants to ship* these two now, right? It'd certainly solve a lot of problems when it comes to the Tarvek/Agatha/Gil triangle, you must admit.

* I can't believe I actually typed that.

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

This is an interesting link I hadn't personally made before. A straight-up Jeckle/Hyde motivated by a desire to actually be a "Good Guy" fixes a lot of problems.

I'll elaborate later, but the desire to reform ties together why she'd be experimenting on herself. Love, after all, makes you do crazy things.

Yeah, this is a possibility that I'd been thinking about for a while. And a Jekyll and Hyde riff certainly fits with the whole Mad Science motif, especially with a late 19th century timeframe. Though there still is the whole Goddess angle to sort out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Egneil

I think the page you're looking for is this one.

Thanks. OK, I'll accept that it does imply that she could have collected Bill's hair and used his DNA combined with hers to create the perfect Lu!heir.

That said, another point against Lu attacking the Kestle before she was showing: the Boys were very good at their jobs - better than Othar by all accounts. I can't see Lu managing to evade them for months, and only panicking and going to the spider ladies at the very end. I find it more likely that the panicky fleeing happened within days of the Kestle blowing up - but I have no evidence one way or the other, beyond the circumstantial clues I've already harped about.

Originally Posted by datalaughing

All this stuff about Lucrezia splitting herself or doing something that accidentally or intentionally made her extra evil, I just don't see it. She already was a bad guy. People just don't want her to be so bad for some reason.

Excuse me, but that is simply not true, and more than a bit offensive. I have been very clear about my motivation for suggesting the split personality, and no-one else has hinted at what you are accusing us of. I presented both the split personality and the pocket dimension to explain the same thing: Lu's sudden jump in competence when she became the Other, as measured by Klaus.

Originally Posted by Porthos

Though there still is the whole Goddess angle to sort out.

Explain, please? As I see it, pocket dimension or not, she created the spider ladies and encouraged them to think of her as their Creator Goddess. I'm sure it both strengthened her grasp on them and stroke her ego. Not sure what else you feel needs to be explained beyond that.

Grey Wolf

[datalaughing]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

Excuse me, but that is simply not true, and more than a bit offensive. I have been very clear about my motivation for suggesting the split personality, and no-one else has hinted at what you are accusing us of. I presented both the split personality and the pocket dimension to explain the same thing: Lu's sudden jump in competence when she became the Other, as measured by Klaus.

Actually, as I recall, there has been a lot of talk in the past about how people just couldn't believe the Lucrezia we saw in the flashback would actually try to kill her daughter. So the one who is the Other just must be different somehow. Sure, it didn't really come up in the last two pages, but that doesn't mean the sentiment doesn't exist. So no need to take it as a personal attack. If you don't feel that something I said applies to your position, then maybe that's because it doesn't and thus, wasn't directed at you.

The jump in sparky competence is the only half-way valid reasoning I've ever heard anyone present for thinking Lucrezia changed somehow. Though I think it makes more sense with the whole Lucrezia was possessed by/combined with some entity that was The Other to become what we see today theory than with the she split herself or enhanced her evil side or something idea. Because more evil = more sparky is a pretty tenuous connection.

[petersohn]

Originally Posted by Porthos

re today's update.

OK, I'm not the only one who wants to ship* these two now, right? It'd certainly solve a lot of problems when it comes to the Tarvek/Agatha/Gil triangle, you must admit.

* I can't believe I actually typed that.

And exactly that's why it won't happen.

[Porthos]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

Explain, please? As I see it, pocket dimension or not, she created the spider ladies and encouraged them to think of her as their Creator Goddess. I'm sure it both strengthened her grasp on them and stroke her ego. Not sure what else you feel needs to be explained beyond that.

Why she actually thinks she is a Goddess, mostly (or at least wigs out when she is called a fraud). It's one thing to get one's ego stroked. It's a whole nudder one to start to believe one's press clippings. Now maybe the same potion/whatever she might have done to herself that potentially split her personality (and created The Other?) also gave her delusions of godhood. Wouldn't be the first time that someone suffered from megalomania. But, I dunno. I just think there's something more with this whole Goddess angle that hasn't been fully explored yet.

[HandofShadows]

Originally Posted by Porthos

Wouldn't be the first time that someone suffered from megalomania.

Megalomania seems to be part of being a spark. Every spark we have seen has shown some signs of it in the madness place. What Lu seems to have is megalomania mixed with some other issues.

[Euodiachloris]

The problem about making timelines and such about how/ when/ where Lu changed from "trying to be a good girl" to "Bwahahaha!" is always... well... the Geisters.

The general impression I've always had is that they've been worshipping --or whatever-- the Mongfish family for generations before Lucrezia Mongfish graced the world with her birth. And, something was encouraging that. If The Other is indeed passed along the Mongfish line by zapping worthwhile girls even with just a certain outlook, rather than a full-scale identity... Lu might have been hit before we ever met her in-story.

Ego: no actual change from Evil > Good > Evil. Just... Evil (trying a new method to see if this will work, this time, dammit).

Lu's tech... might not be entirely her own. After all, Zola knew enough about mind-tricks to try trapping the Lu!Agatha copy that attempted a take-over. And, I'm not entirely convinced all the groundwork for that came from Milvistle.

Mind-tricks and biology... something about the Mongfish family is vitally important, and we just don't know what it is yet. Until we do know, we can't make guesses about Lu with any accuracy.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Euodiachloris

The general impression I've always had is that they've been worshipping --or whatever-- the Mongfish family for generations before Lucrezia Mongfish graced the world with her birth. And, something was encouraging that. If The Other is indeed passed along the Mongfish line by zapping worthwhile girls even with just a certain outlook, rather than a full-scale identity... Lu might have been hit before we ever met her in-story.

Ego: no actual change from Evil > Good > Evil. Just... Evil (trying a new method to see if this will work, this time, dammit).

Nah, getting folks to worship her was always Lucrezia's M.O. The thing which always stuck out for me is that she would go from ensuring that someone she knew who was an obstacle would end up somewhere relatively unharmed to enacting a plan that would callously kill KBH (i.e. did not get him somewhere safe).

IMHO, her behavior towards Agatha is appropriate for either Lucrezia or The Other -- she doesn't know Agatha and obviously doesn't care much about blood relations so why not use her daughter to come "back to life." But KBH was a baby, born from Lucrezia and raised by her -- presumably at least as precious to Lucrezia as Klaus.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by Euodiachloris

The general impression I've always had is that they've been worshipping --or whatever-- the Mongfish family for generations before Lucrezia Mongfish graced the world with her birth.

But the Spider ladies don't worship the Mongfish family, or even the mongfish women. They worship Lucrezia, and Lucrezia alone, and it is implied they have done so for years during which time Lucrezia did not age. Since no-one else has remarked upon this ability when it comes to Lu, that really cannot be readily explained. IMO the pocket dimension does explain it, but I admit it's somewhat lacking on evidence (the book does lay the evidence a little thicker than the comic, but not much).

Alternatively, Lu is the one that will have created the temporal windows, and used it to "visit" her spider ladies by "window" - in the course of an afternoon she could have checked on them 10 times, letting years pass in between from the ladies' perspective. However, she did eventually go to where they were, and the pictures suggest she was actually physically present every time, which the windows don't seem to allow, and in any case would require the "White Citadel" geisterworld to be either in the far future or the far past. All in all, I find the pocket dimension more plausible, but I admit it is not saying much.

Grey Wolf

[Icedaemon]

Today's comic is black & white for the day, apparently. A good one though.

[Imgran]

That's Tarvek's sentimental side for you. He may be a politico trained in the art of ruthlessness, but put him in a one on one situation, and he's really quite the idealist.

[Occasional Sage]

Originally Posted by Icedaemon

Today's comic is black & white for the day, apparently. A good one though.

Only for part of the day, according to the note at the top.

While it's in b&w, though, it's not clear on a phone-size screen what happens in the penultimate panel. There's an explosion, [something else, where the jager can still talk], and Tarvek carries out the girl, the jager, and the books. Eh?

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Imgran

That's Tarvek's sentimental side for you. He may be a politico trained in the art of ruthlessness, but put him in a one on one situation, and he's really quite the idealist.

Or he just wants to score Agatha Points by saving one of 'her' Jagers.

[petersohn]

Originally Posted by Occasional Sage

While it's in b&w, though, it's not clear on a phone-size screen what happens in the penultimate panel. There's an explosion, [something else, where the jager can still talk], and Tarvek carries out the girl, the jager, and the books. Eh?

It's not clear on a 22" monitor either.

[Knight13]

Originally Posted by Occasional Sage

Only for part of the day, according to the note at the top.

While it's in b&w, though, it's not clear on a phone-size screen what happens in the penultimate panel. There's an explosion, [something else, where the jager can still talk], and Tarvek carries out the girl, the jager, and the books. Eh?

The jager can't walk because both of his legs are broken and the airship is blowing up, so if Tarvek leaves him there he's dead. So in the last panel Tarvek is carrying him and the girl and the books.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Icedaemon

Today's comic is black & white for the day, apparently. A good one though.

Yeah, it reminds me of Forrest Gump for some reason.

[eee]

The Foglios are REALLY showing Tarvek's heroic side! I wonder what's going to add to his troubles next...

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

It's the logical consequence of her waiting to know the sex of the fetus. In our world, that requires a very advanced level of pregnancy, and even then quite powerful imaging instruments. I highly doubt that Lu would burn her bridges before she was certain she had the right kind of pregnancy.

Makes sense? You don't have to buy the premise (you can assume chromosomic-reading spark machine instead, which I suppose it's as likely as spark ultrasound machine), but you see where I'm coming from, at least?

Certainly. That part makes sense. I have no problems with such an idea.

But...

(ponder, ponder, ponder)

The problem is, WHY bother with Agatha at all? datalaughing and BRC come up with plausible scenarios for this, but consider just how powerful a hand Lu/the Other had at the start of the war, with Hives, Slaver wasps, revenants, and mind transfer tech. She shouldn't have needed Agatha, Tarvek, or her own family - ESPECIALLY her own family, from what we've seen of them - to win. Widespread Wasp attacks gave her plenty of secret servants even as the zombie-like revenants spread confusion and destruction. If she could have kept that up for long enough, she'd have taken over Europa just by force of numbers; especially since it took 20 years of progress, Tarvek's impressive brilliance, and knowledge of Lu's own science to even start to make an anti-Wasp serum.

And then there's the ability to do mental transfers. Consider what she should have been able to do with that. She could have kidnapped a bunch of female Sparks, put them in the Summoning Engine, and send dozens of copies of herself throughout Europa to wage war on all fronts. Heck, even beyond, to Africa, Asia, and the Americas. Ditto for nobles: Female nobles go in, revenants or Lu imprints come out. And for shock troops, it would appear the von Pinn construct was a Lucrezia or at least Mongfish creation, and we KNOW mind transfer tech works on her. Imagine an army of von Pinn's and maybe clanks with Lu's mind, out there taking on all comers. Heck, if she could have reached any of the input feeds for Castle Heterodyne with her equipment, she might even have been able to wipe out der Kestle and put HER MIND in charge!

Now, admittedly, she might not have had ALL these options at the start of the war. And Lu, from what we've seen, is a brilliant Spark but not all that great a mastermind. Still, what it comes down to is, in the 20 years it would have taken for Agatha to grow into the role of the Heterodyne Girl, the Other would have - SHOULD have - already won if she had all her pieces in place and if she were smart. She wouldn't have needed to have Agatha, and in fact the physical demands of pregnancy at the start of her war would be a check to her activities at a time when she needed to be very active. And while there might be reasons for Lu to want to have a young, healthy, sexy body - she apparently enjoys the pleasures of the flesh as much as she despises its weakness - again, why bother with Agatha? The only other possible benefit, being able to command the Jagers as the Heterodyne, might not have lasted long once they realized who they were really taking orders from.

There are pieces missing. It's as if several different people's plans crashed into each other and produced an unimaginable mess. I suspect the Foglios are being very clever, much of what we think about Lucrezia and the Other and what happened is wrong, and we're being deliberately led to make mistakes.

As UNTHINKABLE as that is.

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

Small correction here: Kestle already had the next of line. Klaus Barry was a 1 year old at the time of Agatha's pregnancy. Kestle would be paying attention to him, not Lu, who at best was gestating a spare in Kestle's eyes.

Grey Wolf

Certainly, again. But Lu's life would be sacrosanct to der Kestle ONLY while she was pregnant with a child of Bill's. At any other time it would squish her in a heartbeat if she did something dangerous. And I'm sure it would still be watching her, no matter how many children she'd had. It, at least, apparently had few doubts about her...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Originally Posted by eee

The problem is, WHY bother with Agatha at all?

No idea. As you said, we are missing too many pieces of the puzzle right now. My unsupported guess is immortality. I do like the idea that it was to command the jaegers, though - We know the jaegers wouldn't follow her, but remember she saw them as minions to control and humiliate. If it really is the case that they are immune to the wasps (maybe because of the Dyne water), this might have been her way of attempting to control them.

Originally Posted by eee

Certainly, again. But Lu's life would be sacrosanct to der Kestle ONLY while she was pregnant with a child of Bill's. At any other time it would squish her in a heartbeat if she did something dangerous. And I'm sure it would still be watching her, no matter how many children she'd had. It, at least, apparently had few doubts about her...

I don't disagree. I was only correcting that the Kestle wouldn't have been as focused on Lu at the time of the attack because he already had a heir to occupy his attention on. Her first pregnancy would have been difficult to hide, not so much the second, when the Kestle's Heir OCD would have been focused on KBH. COmbined with her secret rooms outside of the Kestle's knowledge and eyes, I can see her having managed to go far into the pregnancy without giving herself away (and she did blow up the Kestle and kill everyone that might have known).

Grey Wolf

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Imgran

That's Tarvek's sentimental side for you. He may be a politico trained in the art of ruthlessness, but put him in a one on one situation, and he's really quite the idealist.

Who needs Slaver Wasp implantation when you have Conscience Weasel?

[Imgran]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Or he just wants to score Agatha Points by saving one of 'her' Jagers.

There's better, safer, less painful and less annoying ways to gain Agatha points. Besides, that doesn't explain vespiary girl.

[Imgran]

Originally Posted by eee

The Foglios are REALLY showing Tarvek's heroic side! I wonder what's going to add to his troubles next...



Certainly. That part makes sense. I have no problems with such an idea.

But...

(ponder, ponder, ponder)

The problem is, WHY bother with Agatha at all?

Because Lucrezia is a control freak. Something -- anything -- she couldn't personally control galls at her. When she was "trying good" I think she hoped that controlling Bill, who controlled the Castle and the Jagers, would be enough for her. Apparently it wasn't. I suspect the capriciousness of the castle itself, perhaps a decision to "have some fun" may have been part of why it wasn't.

It may well be possible, this is pure speculation on my part of course, but it's possible that she had KBH and loved him as a son until the very moment sue realized that KBH's existence meant she could NEVER control the castle. The castle would only respond to THE Heterodyne, not to A Heterodyne, if you take my meaning.

If you accept the notion that failing to control the castle, while spending the rest of her life in the castle (or at least with the castle as "home"), was intolerable to Lucrezia, the descent into madness becomes self-evident and the rest of the arc becomes obvious -- she goes nuts, tries to kill KBH, castle obviously protects heterodyne heir, Lucrezia trashes castle, kills her son, realizes what she's done, and flees to the Geisters. Agatha's born, HB's find Agatha free her from The Plan, and raise her as the daughter of Bill she technically is.

[petersohn]

So, color version is now up. It's much clearer what's going on. Am I seeing well that in the last panel Tarvek is dragging the jäger while carrying the girl?

[factotum]

Originally Posted by petersohn

So, color version is now up. It's much clearer what's going on. Am I seeing well that in the last panel Tarvek is dragging the jäger while carrying the girl?

Yes, that's what everyone's been talking about...leaving the Jaeger behind would result in his certain death due to the fire, so Tarvek is rescuing him as well.

[Gez]

Originally Posted by eee

The Foglios are REALLY showing Tarvek's heroic side! I wonder what's going to add to his troubles next...

I'm hoping for a nesting goose.

[Occasional Sage]

Originally Posted by petersohn

So, color version is now up. It's much clearer what's going on. Am I seeing well that in the last panel Tarvek is dragging the jäger while carrying the girl?

Looks like the jager is hanging on with his good arm.

Huh, reading forward from Gez's link, I see that Higgs drunkenly spread stories that hurt the Wulfenbach empire.

Now knowing that he has secret Heterodyne ties of some sort, I assume that was deliberate and sober.

[HandofShadows]

Originally Posted by Occasional Sage

Looks like the jager is hanging on with his good arm.

Huh, reading forward from Gez's link, I see that Higgs drunkenly spread stories that hurt the Wulfenbach empire.

Now knowing that he has secret Heterodyne ties of some sort, I assume that was deliberate and sober.

Higgs didn't know who Agatha was at the time so no reason to hurt the Empire. And Jaegers can still get drunk. If he had wanted to hurt the Empire Klaus would be long dead (and so would Bang.)

[Occasional Sage]

Originally Posted by HandofShadows

Higgs didn't know who Agatha was at the time so no reason to hurt the Empire. And Jaegers can still get drunk. If he had wanted to hurt the Empire Klaus would be long dead (and so would Bang.)

There was plenty of time between Agatha's unveiling aboard Castle Wulfenbach (witnessed by jaegerkin) and Higgs' heroics for him to learn all the details.

Killing Klaus wouldn't make sense: first, the Heterodyne isn't ready and so destroying the Empire is at the very least premature; second, Klaus was a close friend of Bill and Barry and therefore (probably) not in the kill-first-then-think column.

Bang... any jaeger'd find her good fun, even if she's an enemy. Very worth saving.

[eee]

Originally Posted by Occasional Sage

There was plenty of time between Agatha's unveiling aboard Castle Wulfenbach (witnessed by jaegerkin) and Higgs' heroics for him to learn all the details.

Killing Klaus wouldn't make sense: first, the Heterodyne isn't ready and so destroying the Empire is at the very least premature; second, Klaus was a close friend of Bill and Barry and therefore (probably) not in the kill-first-then-think column.

Bang... any jaeger'd find her good fun, even if she's an enemy. Very worth saving.

I thought the only Jager present when Klaus seeing Punch, Judy, and Agatha together tipped him off as to who she was immediately - and probably fatally - encountered Klaus' fist...

On the other hand, the Generals already knew from the moment they inhaled in her presence. And they also knew that the burnt corpse Klaus showed to them WASN'T Agatha, although they didn't feel obliged to share that information. But Higgs might have been in such deep cover in the Wulfenbach forces that they couldn't share it with him, either...

As to exactly what happened the day Higgs rescued Klaus and Bang, all we've got is Dr. Sun's version of it, and just which side the Doctor (not THE Doctor; the definite article, so to speak) is on, if anyone's, is open to question. Also, Agatha at that point was an unknown quantity to Higgs, he hadn't received orders from anyone NOT to talk, and telling what he had seen, given that stories about Strumhalten were probably going to be flying within days anyway, probably didn't seem a big deal.

[Malmagor Andrigal]

By Gott's Leedle Feesh, dis vun's heroism is reely veign tested.

[Turalisj]

I gotta say...

D'awww.....