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Woah. That's a pretty big list'o'tiered-shtuff. Color me impressed.
I was going through the list of stuff tiered on the first page, and got to wondering: is there a complete list of classes and their tiers for official WotC classes posted somewhere on these forums? I couldn't find one, but my Google-fu was never very strong, so I may have just missed it. (I'm not referring to the core classes from PHB, I mean a list of all WotC classes by tier.)
I was going through the list of stuff tiered on the first page, and got to wondering: is there a complete list of classes and their tiers for official WotC classes posted somewhere on these forums? I couldn't find one, but my Google-fu was never very strong, so I may have just missed it. (I'm not referring to the core classes from PHB, I mean a list of all WotC classes by tier.)
Morph Bark's first post in this thread links to the description of the tiers, which has most of WotC's base classes included as examples (I noticed that the Incarnum classes weren't there, and neither are any Prestige Classes).
Morph Bark's first post in this thread links to the description of the tiers, which has most of WotC's base classes included as examples (I noticed that the Incarnum classes weren't there, and neither are any Prestige Classes).
PrC's are hard to tier simply because what tier they fall into really depends on what you entered as.
For instance (and I apologize for the horrible example), the Mystic Theurge entered as a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 is going to be in T1, maybe high T2 if played poorly. Whereas if you entered as say, a Paladin 8/Bard 4, you'd probably be way down in T4, maybe even T5, no matter how hard you try to optimize that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.
Morph Bark's first post in this thread links to the description of the tiers, which has most of WotC's base classes included as examples (I noticed that the Incarnum classes weren't there, and neither are any Prestige Classes).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Techwarrior
PrC's are hard to tier simply because what tier they fall into really depends on what you entered as.
For instance (and I apologize for the horrible example), the Mystic Theurge entered as a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 is going to be in T1, maybe high T2 if played poorly. Whereas if you entered as say, a Paladin 8/Bard 4, you'd probably be way down in T4, maybe even T5, no matter how hard you try to optimize that.
Usually, prestige classes are tiered with a +/- system. The best prestige classes are +2 tiers, I think, while the worst are -1 or -2. I forgot.
...oh crud I forgot to give Raging Dragon a skill.
Chop chop, get to it!
But yeah, I hope this will also show some creators that some things aren't entirely done on their disciplines, parts that would be really easy to fill out.
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Originally Posted by Pyromancer999
Oh my sheesh. I swear, it's things like this that make me suspect you're really some kind of superhuman in disguise, Morph. Well done. Well done indeed.
Sorry, I am bound by a non-disclosure agreement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldan
.... and I think you just beat Age of Warriors as the biggest ToB compilation.
I blew it straight out of the water halfway through with GitP disciplines alone.
The reason I sped it up a bit and posted it already as Phase 1 was that on the Minmaxboards they are creating a Martial Discipline Compendium, which started last Sunday, when I've had catalogued 158 of those disciplines already in a pretty massive Word file. I gave them a link to my list here when I had posted it up and I had 70 disciplines they didn't have yet!
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Originally Posted by Lix Lorn
It makes me want to write out the disciplines in my head really fast to make him work more.
Go ahead. Be sure to link them here when you're done.
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Originally Posted by DracoDei
Well, since he almost certainly used it as one of his major sources, it wouldn't be very complete at all if he didn't.
It was a source, but actually a minor one. Over half the ones listed in Age of Warriors were already on the list, but I did scour the entire thread to be sure I got everything. I had used the Martial Compendium (from the WotC forums, reposted on ENWorld, and also in the Age of Warriors as I later found) as well, but only got two handfuls out of that. Most of them were gotten by scouring Homebrew Compendiums, Homebrew Signatures, posters' posting histories and Googling the names that were referenced elsewhere (including disciplines whose links were dead in the Martial Compendium).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellus
Anyway, I look forward to seeing the tiering, and I just wanted to say that this is some amazing work you're doing! Kudos for such a massive effort to make homebrew accessible!
You're welcome! In related news, how do you feel about the placement of your currently Tiered classes? (Off the top of my head I can only remember the Xenoalchemist and the related omnomnom class with the Gourmand ability that I just realized I forgot the name of.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernir
In this post, I would like to:
Thank you for tiering my long-ass Fighter fix,
Congratulate you on your incredible, ridiculous, energizer bunny-shaming mental stamina,
You're welcome! In related news, how do you feel about the placement of your currently Tiered classes? (Off the top of my head I can only remember the Xenoalchemist and the related omnomnom class with the Gourmand ability that I just realized I forgot the name of.)
The sagittarius was also added in the tier 3 section.
The reason I sped it up a bit and posted it already as Phase 1 was that on the Minmaxboards they are creating a Martial Discipline Compendium, which started last Sunday, when I've had catalogued 158 of those disciplines already in a pretty massive Word file. I gave them a link to my list here when I had posted it up and I had 70 disciplines they didn't have yet!
They got the description for Infernal Monster all wrong. "Unlock your inner beast"? It should've just been "This Link".
(Also just wanted to throw out a Thank You to Morph Bark as well, for assembling all the martial disciplines in one place so comprehensively. I'm not sure why something so useful hadn't been around before!)
You kidding? I did that ten seconds after making the post. The discipline is 'You are a barbarian', the skill is intimidate. xD
I may have to make a random boost or something based on your ranks in it.
Quote:
Go ahead. Be sure to link them here when you're done.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
One of these days I should actually make a discipline instead of just inventing fourteen individual maneuvers (seven for each of my two ToB PrCs)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
One of these days I should actually make a discipline instead of just inventing fourteen individual maneuvers (seven for each of my two ToB PrCs)
Lord Garrath's Discipline of Non-commitment
9th level maneuvers:
Courting Strike: Any target you successfully strike with a melee touch attack, that has both a soul and body, must roll a DC 40 Diplomacy save or die instantly.
9th level maneuvers:
Courting Strike: Any target you successfully strike with a melee touch attack, that has both a soul and body, must roll a DC 40 Diplomacy save or die instantly.
Nah. If I was going to make a discipline, it'd probably be the Transcendent Echo discipline, focusing on sound, altering perceptions and mimicry.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
9th level maneuvers:
Courting Strike: Any target you successfully strike with a melee touch attack, that has both a soul and body, must roll a DC 40 Diplomacy save or die instantly.
I'm safe. I traded my soul away for a bag of cheetos.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.
I'm safe. I traded my soul away for a bag of cheetos.
I lost mine in a game of billiards. I also temporarily lost my sense of fashion, but fortunately I got that one back.
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I dunno if I'd be safe from that maneuver. Are you safe if you have multiple souls?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xefas
(Also just wanted to throw out a Thank You to Morph Bark as well, for assembling all the martial disciplines in one place so comprehensively. I'm not sure why something so useful hadn't been around before!)
You're welcome.
I was surprised to find so many disciplines not listed yet in any Compendium, yeah! I was rather shocked to find out a few days after putting them all together to see one pop up on the Minmaxboards, so I hastily joined and saved them a lot of work, increasing their list by 63%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lix Lorn
A CHALLENGE, GOOD SHINIGAMI
A CHALLENGE INDEED
I must now also note that when this all started I still had my Kamina-shaded Yachiru avatar up (which I may switch back to again later), who is a shinigami, which means she is a god of sorts.
If that's not a sign I don't know what is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth
Nah. If I was going to make a discipline, it'd probably be the Transcendent Echo discipline, focusing on sound, altering perceptions and mimicry.
Listen could use more disciplines, yes. Sonic power, ho!
I myself actually have gotten several discipline ideas from this. You can expect Edge Calibur, Historia Victor, Local Cooling, Qualia Libri, Quantum Control, Xenokey Twist, and the very meta discipline I've affectionately dubbed "ZZ", probably near the end of the universe, the beginning of sanity, the knot in death and around the bend of Drury Lane.
High Tier 3 Magister; partially incomplete, but very much playable. Nord's Blade; changes the game mechanics significantly for itself. Real good initiator too, in spite of getting only 3/4 initiator levels.
Tier 3 Duskblade, Psionic; slightly better than the normal Duskblade, which was Borderline. Engineer; frankly, wicked awesome. This class was really well made to be a (primarily) non-magical artificer. Masque; the creator asked for it to be Tiered earlier and I gave him some suggestions, after which he made some alterations and additions to the class and got some more feedback on it. It was positively improved. Monk; there are some issues with the Death ki blast, Fast Movement isn’t on the table. Open Palm; thinking Perform (kata) sound very much like Perform (weapon drill), though the name of the former is fancier. Rogue, Sublime; while pretty recently posted and still undergoing revisions (I take), it currently pretty clearly falls in Tier 3 and most likely won't get out of it so quickly.
Borderline Tier 3-4 Magitech Templar; it doesn't have any real Tier 3 tricks, not much anyway, but with some picks of its class abilities it comes out to be roughly Totemist level, I'd say. Sniper; the trick shots are really nice and do a lot to improve upon the idea of the Ranger, practically replacing his spellcasting (though note that this isn't specifically a fix). It does really well at ranged combat and decent at some skills, but that's it and that's enough for the Sniper. Soulknife; to be honest, I wasn't entirely sure on where to put this, which is primarily why its here. In many ways it felt like a Tier 4, but in some ways it just felt better than Tier 4 classes. Feedback on this would be appreciated so that it can be put in its appropriate Tier.
Tier 5 Handyman; I briefly thought I should put this under Tier 4, but I was doubtful, primarily because skills are already easily optimized without classes and even more with them, even other classes of Tier 4 easily doing so. "When in doubt, don't do it."
Variable Tier Destined Hero; it depends highly on Archetype, other than Fated Warrior, up until about level 10 it is Tier 4, with Fated Warrior being Tier 3. After level 10 it gains some abilities that pull up the other Archetypes towards Tier 3 as well. However, due to automatic gain of Leadership at level 6, plus an accompanying ability that allows the Destined Hero to basically transcend death, the Tiering of the class is thrown a little out of whack, primarily due to the strength of the Leadership feat, but Jarian is undoubtedly aware of this.
(I totally didn't take a break after all, I guess.)
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Objection, the strength of Leadership comes from the cohort, not the slightly-better-than-commoners low level NPCs you attract. The Destined Hero does not gain a cohort.
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Lightbringer Adison, Swordmage priestess of Pelor, by the very talented Darwin.
Objection, the strength of Leadership comes from the cohort, not the slightly-better-than-commoners low level NPCs you attract. The Destined Hero does not gain a cohort.
Though the cohort does bestow the greatest boon as part of Leadership, the followers are far from background-material-only. Leadership does not impose any limits on classes, so even without the cohort it can mean anything from practically unlimited uses of every level 1-3 spell/power/mystery/equivalent, masterwork and mundane items for 1/3 price and magic ones up to CL 8th at half price, an army that can slay gods, knowledge about everything relevant to the plot or ways to easily get it, commoner railguns, and so on. While I'd certainly disregard the last example, the others are all perfectly possible with a DM allowing any official class to be taken as a follower.
Taking that all away for a moment however, there is still the other part of the ability, which essentially allows the Destined Hero to come back to life for free 1d4 days after his death with no level loss at all. This ability is basically saying "even if I don't win the battle, I will win the war anyway, anyhow, always". It's a wicked good ability and certainly a very nice one that fits the flavour, but it's also very strong, an immortality trick better than most immortality tricks concocted by Tier 1s and 2s, further emboldened by the fact it isn't even actually a trick at all.
I like the ability and the overall class itself, but a DM hosting a game over level 5 should be aware of everything that follows from this ability as it is somewhat of a gamechanger.
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Leadership does not impose any limits on classes[...]
Yeah, well, it does now, so there!
Quote:
Taking that all away for a moment however, there is still the other part of the ability, which essentially allows the Destined Hero to come back to life for free 1d4 days after his death with no level loss at all. This ability is basically saying "even if I don't win the battle, I will win the war anyway, anyhow, always". It's a wicked good ability and certainly a very nice one that fits the flavour, but it's also very strong, an immortality trick better than most immortality tricks concocted by Tier 1s and 2s, further emboldened by the fact it isn't even actually a trick at all.
Yeah, I rather think that's the defining feature of the class. I'd rather see a note about it not being appropriate for certain games where the PCs are supposed to be good boys and stay dead, as opposed to being slapped in the variable tier category. Because, being totally honest, that feels like the 'oh... probably won't be playing that' tier, which is unfortunate.
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Lightbringer Adison, Swordmage priestess of Pelor, by the very talented Darwin.
Monk; there are some issues with the Death ki blast, Fast Movement isn’t on the table.
I will add fast movement to the table. what are the issues with the death ki blast? too strong, or too weak? Whatever the case, I suppose that I should include a clause that creaturers that are immune to criticals are immune to the death effect, and tag it as a death effect. and thanks for tiering it!
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Where did you start yours?
The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
SWEAR TO G IF THIS IS WHAT I THINK IT IS THERE WILL BE CLASSY FEAT SUPPORT AND SYNERGY.
AND MAYBE FOR THIS ONE TOO. THE CAPS LOCK WON'T TURN OFF.
YOU DO THAT, MAH BOY. YOU DO THAT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarian
Yeah, well, it does now, so there!
Oh you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarian
Yeah, I rather think that's the defining feature of the class. I'd rather see a note about it not being appropriate for certain games where the PCs are supposed to be good boys and stay dead, as opposed to being slapped in the variable tier category. Because, being totally honest, that feels like the 'oh... probably won't be playing that' tier, which is unfortunate.
Hm, understandable, I suppose. Aside from Leadership + gamechanger I could see it mainly being Tier 3-4 as stated earlier. After going over the Nord's Blade though, I considered adding the "Gamechanger" Tag, which would denote a class which alters at least one aspect of the game significantly for the PC, which the DM should take note of. I could simply add that Tag in and slap it on the Destined Hero and put it safely within bounds of Borderline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunar2
I will add fast movement to the table. what are the issues with the death ki blast? too strong, or too weak? Whatever the case, I suppose that I should include a clause that creaturers that are immune to criticals are immune to the death effect, and tag it as a death effect. and thanks for tiering it!
The Death ki blast's main issue was the multiplier, I think. The ability was a bit vaguely written to me overall, to be honest, though the other abilities were pretty clear. The class could also use some bolding/italicizing of ability name headers to make the presentation even cleaner. (So "Ki blast" would be bolded and the sub-parts, "Renzoku", "Death", etc, would be italicized, for instance.) It's not necessary, of course, but it makes it easier to find an ability and thus read over.
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I've been thinking... there are already a lot of classes here, but as much as I respect and generally agree with Morph's assessment of their tiers, a bunch of it remains completely untested in actual combat scenarios. If, hypothetically, someone were to volunteer to run a mostly-almost-just-about-completely combat/'encounter' playtest, would there be any interest in that? I think I'd limit people to playing classes within 1 tier of each other (.5 tiers count as either one), and not playing their own classes to avoid authorial bias. Hypothetically, of course.
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Lightbringer Adison, Swordmage priestess of Pelor, by the very talented Darwin.
alright, thanks for the input, Morph. it's supposed to be 3x the normal damage (roll normal damage, then multiply by 3, or roll damage 3 times, it doesn't matter which), with the damage type and critical changing based on whether you pick the disc or the ray. i thought i worded it clearly enough, but i guess not. can you think of a better wording?
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Where did you start yours?
The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.
In related news, how do you feel about the placement of your currently Tiered classes? (Off the top of my head I can only remember the Xenoalchemist and the related omnomnom class with the Gourmand ability that I just realized I forgot the name of.)
I'm pretty comfortable with them. I'm not entirely sure about the distinction between the xenoalchemist being high tier 3 vs the connoisseur being vanilla tier 3 based on being able to install grafts on other people, since the connoisseur has a ton more personal power compared the xenoalchemist, who's pretty much purely a support class. But I was certainly aiming for that kind of power level for them. The sagittarius was also an attempt to make a fun and playable archer that can compete at higher levels, and I definitely agree with the tier 3 rank there as well.
If you don't mind, I have a few more classes which could use your stern and disapproving gaze:
I've been thinking... there are already a lot of classes here, but as much as I respect and generally agree with Morph's assessment of their tiers, a bunch of it remains completely untested in actual combat scenarios. If, hypothetically, someone were to volunteer to run a mostly-almost-just-about-completely combat/'encounter' playtest, would there be any interest in that? I think I'd limit people to playing classes within 1 tier of each other (.5 tiers count as either one), and not playing their own classes to avoid authorial bias. Hypothetically, of course.
I'd be down for that. I need to work on my Optimize Fu anyway.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff the Green
Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.
I've been thinking... there are already a lot of classes here, but as much as I respect and generally agree with Morph's assessment of their tiers, a bunch of it remains completely untested in actual combat scenarios. If, hypothetically, someone were to volunteer to run a mostly-almost-just-about-completely combat/'encounter' playtest, would there be any interest in that? I think I'd limit people to playing classes within 1 tier of each other (.5 tiers count as either one), and not playing their own classes to avoid authorial bias. Hypothetically, of course.
Too bad it's only hypothetically, otherwise I'd be interested
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Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium
You're welcome!
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Lightbringer Adison, Swordmage priestess of Pelor, by the very talented Darwin.
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