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I was looking over the Soulweaver again, and I'm not sure where its tier 2 ranking comes from. It has powerful summons, yeah, but sheer power does not a tier 2 make. It doesn't have access to much (if any) of the tier 1 tricks, which by default should put it into tier 3, I would think? Maybe with a note as to why you think it's tier 2 potentially?
Iunno.
In other news, I agree with a separate list for printed class fixes.
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Lightbringer Adison, Swordmage priestess of Pelor, by the very talented Darwin.
A quick last post before I am gone for the weekend. I'll be back to Tiering on Wednesday after my last exam, so stay tuned for some changes and additions to the system, more classes and more Tiering!
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Originally Posted by Jarian
I was looking over the Soulweaver again, and I'm not sure where its tier 2 ranking comes from. It has powerful summons, yeah, but sheer power does not a tier 2 make. It doesn't have access to much (if any) of the tier 1 tricks, which by default should put it into tier 3, I would think? Maybe with a note as to why you think it's tier 2 potentially?
It was actually an honest derp. I meant to put it in High Tier 3, though it could maybe have been Tier 2 if its undead lasted longer. Minionmancy is very versatile and very powerful, making the action economy its little female dog. The Soulweaver isn't too strong with his Horde though, due to its limitations (requiring swift actions to keep up, making it limited to one day unless the Soulweaver is undead or a warforged; with on the other hand the undead not being all that game-breaking by far).
If more people are in favour of the seperate Tiering for Fix Classes, feel free to start bringing in some, I'll get to them in time!
For now, I shall bid you all adieu.
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Interestingly, the Trissociate was also formulated in part as a base class fix. With the idea being that if you wanted a better Dragon Shaman, you would stack together, half-dragon, Draconic auras, and whatever else fit the character flavor (e.g. Sublime Maneuvers, Sorcerer spells, or gem dragon Psionics) to come up with something half-way competent.
__________________ Trissociate: 3.5 Homebrew Base Class. Mix & match abilites & templates to make virtually any sort of character!
Then there's Oskar's massive Paladin overhaul thread, but I'm pretty sure that's popular enough that 99% of gitp knows about it already.
You'd be surprised. Quite a lot of people I've talked to only visit one or two parts of the forums and are completely unaware of any homebrewing that goes on here.
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Originally Posted by JeminiZero
You probably won't read this, but here's wishing you good luck.
Heh, sadly it appears luck was far from my side the past week. I'll have to not buy new clothes and ration my food for the coming year if I want to finish college.
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Originally Posted by kanachi
Hiya Morph,
Could I get your thoughts on my Trueforge class which is currently in the Base Class Challenge?
I would be interested what you think of it and where you believe it comes in terms of tiering.
Thanks! :)
Since that BCC is still in progress, I will wait until after it has concluded with Tiering it. Suffice to say that I will get to it in due time.
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Originally Posted by Vilpich
Could you explain the tier 4 for the chosen warrior? I'm curious, since a lot of people agreed it was low tier 3.
I'll get back to you on that, poke me later here if I forget. I just thought I'd reply to let you know I didn't forget you either.
Do you think it would be bad if it is Tier 4 though?
EDIT: I've added Fix Class Tiers in the fourth post with a different kind of Tagging, as well as something on subsystems and such in the third post. What do you all think of the Tagging here? I haven't added Role Tags yet, but those might not even be necessary, since they prettymuch have the same role as the official classes anyway.
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Hey, just popping in to say nice work and I hope it turns out well
Oh, two things:
- Could you add the name of the creators on the classes you have tiered already?
- What the sit rep on my brews? I'm in no hurry but I'm always curious
Hey, just popping in to say nice work and I hope it turns out well
Oh, two things:
- Could you add the name of the creators on the classes you have tiered already?
- What the sit rep on my brews? I'm in no hurry but I'm always curious
Thanks, I can say I definitely share those hopes.
Is that necessary? I don't really feel like doing that for the original classes, as the balance for those tends to be all over the place, even for a single creator's work. When it comes to re-works/tools/vamps/makings/doings, the creator generally has much more of a solid aim, at least those homebrewers who have multiple Fix classes to their name.
And what's a sit rep? Sounds like something you'd do in the gym.
Anyhoo, I've added the following classes:
High Tier 3: Blade Scholar, Eternal Royal, Scholar. Currently considering moving one or more of these to Tier 2. Tier 3: Battle Psychic, Soul Disciple, Sublime Matador, Sublime Archer, Warlord. Tier 4: Gentle Fist Adept and moved the Limit Freak and Limit Monk here from Borderline Tier 3-4. Tier 5: Fanatic.
The Tome of Battle homebrew discipline listing has been expanded somewhat as well. I am currently thinking I should change the way I tag it though. Instead of what I have now, I'm thinking of changing it to this:
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Discipline Name Creator: Name. Tier: Tier 2-3-4. Skill: Skill. Weapons: Cutty, pokey and crushy. Theme: Theme or themes. Comments:
Alternatively:
Discipline Name Creator: Name. Tier: Tier 2-3-4. Skill: Skill. Weapons: Cutty, pokey and crushy. Theme: Theme or themes. Comments:
How does that look?
Disciplines still to go:
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Before you ask, no, your discipline is not in this list. :P Go ahead and tell me about it.
Yes, it is based on one of the most fun games ever
I'll just push this forward again, if enough time has passed for you.
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Originally Posted by Hashmir
When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
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Originally Posted by Bloodgruve
Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
Blood~
The first link made me have a moment of "yo dawg, we heard you like maneuvers, so we put some maneuvers in your maneuvers, so you can initiate while you initiate".
Also, I'd like to note that this won't be a compilation of everything around. I don't plan on including things that are unplayable, too incomplete, badly done or just very boring.
I like the new spells you made for your Medic, by the way. Very nice.
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Originally Posted by Madara
I'll just push this forward again, if enough time has passed for you.
Indeed it has. Plus I see you've gotten plenty of comments on it too, so kudos! It seems to me like it would fall into potentially Tier 2 pre-level 10, depending on how creative the players would be with their Words, otherwise being Tier 3, lower even if they aren't imaginative at all. Greater Creatures is dangerous though, putting it into Tier 2 for sure for the same reasons as why a Truenamer would be Tier 2 (or above, I'm not sure if Gate alone would put it at Tier 1). At level 20 he gets access to Solars, which have exactly 22 HD. This is why you need to beware with HD limits. CR may not always be an appropriate standard (in case of dragons and 3.0 monsters mostly), but its better than HD in most cases. Otherwise, it's wiser to stick to the same amount of HD or even 2 lower, especially since Outsiders often have CR greater than their HD.
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Indeed it has. Plus I see you've gotten plenty of comments on it too, so kudos! It seems to me like it would fall into potentially Tier 2 pre-level 10, depending on how creative the players would be with their Words, otherwise being Tier 3, lower even if they aren't imaginative at all. Greater Creatures is dangerous though, putting it into Tier 2 for sure for the same reasons as why a Truenamer would be Tier 2 (or above, I'm not sure if Gate alone would put it at Tier 1). At level 20 he gets access to Solars, which have exactly 22 HD. This is why you need to beware with HD limits. CR may not always be an appropriate standard (in case of dragons and 3.0 monsters mostly), but its better than HD in most cases. Otherwise, it's wiser to stick to the same amount of HD or even 2 lower, especially since Outsiders often have CR greater than their HD.
I think I might stick a Cap on it in that case. The balancing piece in my mind is that you have no control over such creatures from Greater Creatures. As such, summoning a Solar does very little good unless you're fighting a Demon. Even then, its under the DM's control and the best use is summoning something as a meatshield.Thanks for the comments, and I agree with your Tiering. It doesn't have the raw power of a wizard or pure spellcaster, but it does have ways of being effective.
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Originally Posted by Hashmir
When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
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Originally Posted by Bloodgruve
Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
Blood~
I'm getting a hunch you like Circle of Life's work.
Mostly I just have a lot of his stuff bookmarked, and don't for others. It's easier to click a bookmark and C/P than it is to trawl the entire homebrew subforum looking for something you missed.
While we're on the subject of ToB though, Blademaster.
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Lightbringer Adison, Swordmage priestess of Pelor, by the very talented Darwin.
If I may, I would like to request another look at the Mage Slayer. It has recieved a reworking of it's capstone, revamp of several abilities, and several other nifty mage hunting abilities. It also recieved some more versatility by expanding what feats it's allowed to choose for bonus feats.
Well, if you are doing disciplines, I would like to request a tiering of Falling Anvil (in my NOT extended signature, as well as my extended signature). Everybody kept trying to tell me that balance wasn't as important for a humorous homebrew, but that line of argument has never held any water with me. And, yes, I know the cap-stone doesn't specify the mechanical effects of being buried alive X inches deep in various types of materials.
EDIT: The alternate improved format (so the second one in the spoiler), is the one I like the best. It also looks like you aren't really saying WHY things get or don't get the stamp of approval...
Also, Black Rain and Breath of Fire are worth a look simply because they are very specific, so their inclusion or exclusion really can influence the flavor of the campaign since there isn't a good alternative to replace them with. Note that none of the Breath of Fire maneuvers having prerequisites was completely intentional on the author's part.
Luck Blessed: My most recent homebrew (new as of mid May 2013).
If anybody is ever interested in playing one of my homebrewed base classes let me know, I'd love to see some of them in play and would try to run a game for it.
Could I request you tiering the two complete base classes in my Sig? The Runner and Ascetic. The Runescar is on hold for now but is still being worked on, so i may request that one later on.
EDIT: I honestly don't know what tier they would be, but they're both combat classes so likely no higher than low three or high four
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Originally Posted by GFawkes
You didn't poke fate with a stick. You set fate on fire, then whacked it with a 2x4 several times.
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Originally Posted by blackwind1kaze
good thing they did body attribute instead of Physical attribute, otherwise the stats would look like:
Didn't see it in there so I figured I'd ask for my own piece of mind, but could you possibly review the Xenoalchemist? A really cool system, not super broken either. I'd personally say mid-tier 3, but there's a reason you're the one doing this.
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Originally Posted by kardar233
I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
Well, though I would have liked to get more input on my class before Tiering it, I don't see that happening. Anyways, could you Tier my Chorister class, conveniently located in my signature.
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I have Tiered the Blademaster and Chorister, since I've seen those before and read them through entirely back then, so I was already familiar with them. I've currently put an Incomplete Tag on the Chorister because it felt incomplete before to me and you yourself said in the thread you were thinking of making more abilities for the class. Plus, the later levels feel rather dead, levels 13 and 16 truly being so. Also, I just noticed that some abilities aren't limited in range, only to whoever can "see or hear you". This means that, hypothetically, they could pick up a microphone or get a news camera and bestow their Hymnal bonuses on everyone in the entire world. Might be a good idea to limit that to less, like the Bard's 60 ft radius. I've put it under Tier 3 because its Hymns are powerful, come in decent variety and a great aid to allies, while the other abilities are good too. It's spellcasting is a bit sub-par, but that is okay and entirely intended (otherwise you would've gone higher than 6th-level).
Tiering may go slow for a while, by the way. While GitP currently sometimes loads alright for me, a lot of the time it also takes a long time to load pages or I get errors and need to reload it. This is being worked on as we type, but I don't know when this change will be complete. It might already be complete for me for all I know, but I will find out about that in the next 24 hours in case that is so. It might not be, hence why I thought I'd just mention it.
Anyway, thanks for the continued support, praise, commentary and everything. I'm looking forward to the continuation of such and Tiering more and more classes.
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Still patiently awaiting Harrow'd and Malefactor tiers.
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Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
I had actually been waiting to Tier the Harrowed until you had changed it, since you said you were working on that earlier. I've actually received flack from people for not Tiering some classes before others!
Either way, it seems I can use GitP prettymuch normally again, so allow me to show off my Son of Man, my entry into the 12th installment of the Base Class Challenge along with some other nice entries. You can vote for it and others here.
In the meantime, allow me to tell you all a story of my exploits away from GitP while I was having troubles with the site:
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While GitP wasn't working as it should be for me, I decided to go to other sites with homebrew on them to Tier classes from there. I had already visited the Minmax boards and Tiered some classes from the WotC forums, even taken a stroll to glance over DragoonWraith's Swordmage on the Competitor forums. This time though? This time I entered the belly of the beast. This time I entered dandwiki.
Having been there before, I had some small idea of what awaited me. Having heard tons of opinions of others on the place, I should have been rebuffed, but I figured that even in there in that dark place there were classes waiting to be Tiered. I searched through the lists of finished classes, looked over the ratings they had received and decided then and there that I would look through as many as I could just this once.
What I found mostly confirmed my fears.
There were classes that were rated incredibly highly, some even receiving a perfect, which were incredibly crappy. They were largely uninteresting in either fluff or mechanics and mostly both, generic and with balance points all over the place. The greatest amount of classes I found seemed to be aimed at Tier 5, actually aimed at it, for their discussion pages showed their creators being happy with the results and people praising their balance. Other classes casually received all of the features of a cleric, wizard or sorcerer and more without a second though and were likewise praised, with occassionally a single voice crying out "this is too much!" and drowning in the masses.
In the end, I went, I saw, I Tiered. These are the ones out of the whole pile that seem like they might at least have something good going for them.
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Autoplate Pilot (not sure where to put this; it’s been used once in a campaign of mine, but that eventually went on an acid trip, so the class wasn’t recognizable anymore) Barkeeper (Tier 5) Battle Shinigami (Tier 4-5?) Deviant (Tier 2) Jester (Tier 4, low-ish, can be strangely tanky) Gate Knight (it looks fair, but it heavily depends on its sacrifices, which I haven’t fully read yet) Hakurei Shrine Maiden (Tier 2) Hexagunner (Tier 4-5, this class is rated 20 by several people on its discussion page, but until it gets some of its later ally-buffing abilities it is very weak, this is mainly because Steady Aim is its main feature and requires a round of prep time, which nerfs itself incredibly) Kido Shinigami (Tier 4) Magical Girl (tough one, very blasty though, so probably like the Warmage) Mechanist (Tier 4, borderline 3 maybe) Mortician (hard to Tier, mostly Tier 5, but it has minionmancy 3 levels before Leadership happens, it’s like a lesser necromancer except it gets Animate Dead incredibly early) Paladin, Kantian (High Tier 3, one of the best classes on the site, was used in one of my campaigns before) Red Mage (pretty nicely put together, I’d put it at Tier 4; doublecast is hella strong, but otherwise it’s like a lesser warmage, so if not for doublecast and the special abilities, it would’ve been Tier 5) Sandbender (dunno, haven’t read all its techniques yet, but it should be noted it gets 30 techniques at level 20 and only has 31 possible ones to choose, so most of them will end up a lot the same) Sandbinder (Tier 4 low in normal conditions, Tier 6 in sandless areas, depends heavily on if there’s a distinction made between sand and dirt) Shinigami (Tier 4-5?, could be the same creator as the Battle Shinigami due to tons of similarities in mechanics, but I don’t know which one is his latest version, as the Battle Shinigami is newer, but the Shinigami has been revised more recently it seems, found the creators page, the Shinigami is meant to be replaced by the Battle Shinigami and Kido Shinigami) Thief-Acrobat (Tier 4, some nifty abilities, but nothing really special) Threat (Tier 4-5?, kinda reminds me of the barbarian, but most abilities are actually nicer, though the barbarian can get pounce, rage variants and other ACFs that make it better) Time Bender (Tier 2 with the fetch, I’d say, but it’s way too easy to screw over, making it unplayable) Weeper (Tier 4)
But really, this is so very little when you consider that to get to these I had to dig through hundreds of classes, most of them failed attempts in creating something inspired by an awesome source or ‘fixing’ or creating a variant of an official class, many others being actually successful attempts… at creating something underpowered or overpowered. It was like I was standing on a giant compost heap with my trusty shovel, looking for gemstones and finding just a handful of semi-precious stones. ;_;
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In the meantime, allow me to tell you all a story of my exploits away from GitP while I was having troubles with the site:
Thanks for posting this, it was an interesting read!
I think this is the advantage of the relatively small homebrew community here on the playground. Generally speaking the more exposure a community has to certain things the more those within it become accustomed to the same unspoken sense of balance, structure and methods.
In general everyones first base class creations are over or under powered (I know mine was). In many cases they are crafted by players seeking to have their class approved by their DM and are sometimes craft without any experience of DMing themselves or without a full understanding of the wider implications their builds may have upon the system as a whole. Also some who are DMs craft things which work perfectly within their own campaign but do not necessarily stand as mechanically balanced or sound in regard to the wider system.
A place like dnd wiki is so highly populated that a lot more people fall into these categories (or others that are similar) and thus the group think of the community slowly becomes more and more diluted towards that way of working.
The same could be said of any community of course, even ours. It could be argued that our builds here are only balanced against each other and our group think perceptions of the wider system.
I just happen to believe that the group think here is more sound.
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Lightbringer Adison, Swordmage priestess of Pelor, by the very talented Darwin.
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