Shadowrun 4th ed. Questions

[Dimestoretiamat]

I am going to go ahead and open this up for everyone who needs some help with SR4 so that help can be provided in a timely manner.

Anyway here is my issue. I just got SR4 at Origins this year (yay!) but I am unsure how a few things work. Most specifically is the Vehicle Rigger. I have a party member that wants to specialize in going fast, leaving drones for the hacker/technomancer of the party (and yes I am the DM). What skills should she choose?

Pilot and Mechanic skills are a given, as is Gunnery. I am making sure she has at least one rank in a firearm skill so that she can assist in combat when she is outside of her car. Mainly my question is fixed on the hacking skills. Which ones will she need to hotwire a car and take it joyriding? Please include some examples in your responses as well. I have never played this before (which is usually a no-no in my book).

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

I am going to go ahead and open this up for everyone who needs some help with SR4 so that help can be provided in a timely manner.

Actually, how about we just make a General Shadowrun Discussion thread? WoD and Exalted have their own threads as well - it'd need to be moved into the Older D&D/Other Systems area.

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

Most specifically is the Vehicle Rigger. I have a party member that wants to specialize in going fast, leaving drones for the hacker/technomancer of the party (and yes I am the DM).

Well, here's the thing: vehicles are drones.

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

What skills should she choose?

As you said, Gunnery and the relevant Pilot and Mechanic skills are useful. Armorer will help to fix or alter your drones/vehicles, and basically all the Cracking and Electronics skills are likely gonna see use.

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

Mainly my question is fixed on the hacking skills. Which ones will she need to hotwire a car and take it joyriding?

Depends on how you want to go about it. Spoofing would probably be the best choice.

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

Please include some examples in your responses as well. I have never played this before (which is usually a no-no in my book).

I'll try and add in some examples when I have more time, 'kay?

[Dimestoretiamat]

Ahhh I see. That clears things up quite a bit. So vehicles and drones are the same. I definately see the benefit of spoofing. As I see it (and correct me if I am wrong) spoofing is a quick fix rather then total dominance over a system, unlocking car doors or subtly changing a drone's targeting protocols.

So then does jacking into a vehicle really benefit the driver at all? Jacking into drones has obvious advantages, such as extended perception, but seeing the world through a car that you are currently driving just doesn't seem really helpful to me. Perhaps in using vehicle weapons it would help, but we also have a weapons troll who can use them as well.

[Seerow]

To clarify vehicles vs drones, all drones are vehicles, but not all vehicles are drones. Most cars and such aren't made to be rigged by default, so for a rigger to use them as a drone they need to get the rigger adaptation upgrade for the vehicle. (Unless I'm misremembering horribly in which case someone will correct me I'm sure).


Jacking into a vehicle allows the rigger to use his matrix attributes instead of his physical attributes. Most riggers are running 4-5 IP's in matrix space, and probably only 1 or 2 in meat space. That's already a huge advantage and a great reason to jack in. There's generally other bonuses associated with being jacked in as well, and if you hot sim you get the +2 dice bonus to everything along with that extra initiative pass.


And of course there's the benefit that if you are rigging the vehicle, you don't really need to be in the vehicle, if the signal on your commlink and vehicle are good enough. You sit back somewhere nice and safe, while you ferry your team around wherever they need to go. They get a professional top tier driver, and a vehicle with an extra open seat for passengers, you get to not risk your neck quite so personally.

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

So then does jacking into a vehicle really benefit the driver at all?

The higher dice pool is pretty beneficial.

Originally Posted by Seerow

Most cars and such aren't made to be rigged by default, so for a rigger to use them as a drone they need to get the rigger adaptation upgrade for the vehicle. (Unless I'm misremembering horribly in which case someone will correct me I'm sure).

You could still load in a Pilot program to control it for you, though, even if it doesn't have a rigger adaptation.

Originally Posted by Seerow

Jacking into a vehicle allows the rigger to use his matrix attributes instead of his physical attributes. Most riggers are running 4-5 IP's in matrix space, and probably only 1 or 2 in meat space.

To break it down, a rigger's IPs go like this...

Meatspace/AR: 1 IP
Meatspace (Wired Reflexes)/Cold sim: 2 IP
Meatspace/Hot sim: 3 IP
Hot sim + simsense booster cyberware: 4 IP
Hot sim + simsense booster cyberware + simsense accelerator commlink mod: 5 IP

Originally Posted by Seerow

And of course there's the benefit that if you are rigging the vehicle, you don't really need to be in the vehicle, if the signal on your commlink and vehicle are good enough. You sit back somewhere nice and safe, while you ferry your team around wherever they need to go.

Or at least from a rigger cocoon. Those are fun.

Originally Posted by Seerow

They get a professional top tier driver, and a vehicle with an extra open seat for passengers, you get to not risk your neck quite so personally.

Sure, but the rest of the team might not always feel so nice about it.

[Dimestoretiamat]

Ok I think I am starting to get it. So her personal vehicles are going to allow her to jack in and get a bunch of bonuses, but the average car on the street that they happen to get a hold of for an emergency getaway will most likely not allow her to do that.

Thats when you spoof the car into unlocking and drive it in meat space.

So then you need Pilot programs to drive the vehicle that you jacked into? Or would your Pilot skill be sufficient?

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

So then you need Pilot programs to drive the vehicle that you jacked into? Or would your Pilot skill be sufficient?

Pilot programs are when you want the vehicle to "drive itself."

[Dimestoretiamat]

Ahhh ok. Thanks for the help.

[Dimestoretiamat]

Now for another issue. The person in question doesn't want to do "just cars". Dispite me telling her otherwise, she doesn't feel that her character will be very useful. So far we have a troll weapons specialist, a human hobo wizard, a hacker/technomancer, and an adept/cyberware enhanced street samurai. Her origional rigger build would brush into the domain of the hacker character, seeing as he will most likely be using many of the same programs as she will. She likes filling in the blank space in the party so I had an idea.

How useful is an infiltrator? Someone who specializes in defeating physical security through a combination of stealth and Hardware, plus some Charisma skills thrown in there. This way she can still "do cars" but have a much larger skill set.

Also keep in mind that I run a high risk, high reward campaign. I especially favor cleverness over brute force. A team just blasting their way in is going to be staring down the Red Samurai in a Seattle minute. Not to mention the main bad guys I have created for the game, the JSPR (Jasper) Dolls (think a combo of the Geth and the Borg). With this game I hope to impress on the party that brute force is not always the best option, or even an option at all.

Granted, there are still plenty of people (and near people) to blow to bits. I am just trying to reinforce some tact.

[AshleyEmily]

Does she really pursue Hacker character? As you mention for her.Because I don't think so.

[TheCountAlucard]

Well, see, the roles of hacker and rigger have quite a bit of overlap mechanically, but they can still produce far different experiences.

[TheOOB]

As for how useful a physical infiltrator is, it depends. Oftentimes, having good infiltration skills doesn't make a character by themselves. Most characters have an area of focus, and do something else too(usually fight). A character totally devoted to infiltration would need to be in a large party, because in most smallish teams you can't afford that level of specialization.

As for riggers, first note that riggers are not just cars, they do drones too. A rigger can hack, but they can't really be a hacker. A rigger can easily spend all their money on their drones, and buying hacking programs will cut into their drone budget, and if they take hacking and rigging skills they'll be truely useless in the meat. Further, you only have so many actions a round, and rigging is a full time job.

[Dimestoretiamat]

Alright. Here is my new plan. I will have her be a rigger but have some stealth thrown in as well. I will have my street samurai and hacker do some stealth as well to provide back up. My wizard can blast spirits to smitherines (high Astral Combat and Banish) while the troll blasts physical things to smitherines.

Is this a viable party? I suppose this is the question. In my experience with RPGs I have come across situations where the party is broken to the point that a party member is rendered completely useless. I believe that the way I have it imagined will create characters that will be able to function as a unit well and will also not leave anyone out.

[TheCountAlucard]

Is anyone playing a Face? It's surprisingly-important to have someone negotiate, even if it's just a matter of how much your PCs are getting paid...

Actually, especially if it's a matter of how much your PCs are getting paid.

[Reluctance]

Being good at driving fast can be covered by a few ranks of Pilot Ground Craft. You won't be matching focused riggers, but that plus a datajack plus the right vehicle should cover most of your needs. The biggest benefit being that it doesn't eat too many character resources.

Otherwise, I second the recommendation for a face. Some Stealth/Athletics are handy, although playing a solo scout is bad form. (It's dangerous, and more importantly, forces the other players to sit out while you sidequest.) A bit of combat skills to avoid being a liability. But mostly, a pretty face, and the ability to BS into or out of wherever you need to be. That's a very clear gap in the combat-focused team.

[TheOOB]

Make sure both GM and Player are experienced before adding in a rigger, also make sure you have Unwired, it's all but required. As for party, and Shadowrun Party is viable, just make sure you only pick runs based around your skills. If you don't, for example, have a hacker, don't take runs where you will likely need one.

[Kaun]

REQUIRE QUICK RESPONSE!

Hi guys i am running a game in around 4 hours so i would love a speedy response if possible.

Aside from Lone Star and Knights Errant what other major security contractors are there that take on large municipal contracts?

My game is set in my home city of Melbourne Australia and in my game Australia in general has been largely annexed by Asia based corps (Japs, Chinese, Koreans ect.) So i would prefer a security corp that would fit more with that idea.

I have yet to track down a security corp that fits the bill but if anybody could point me in the right direction of one it would be much appreciated.

Or failing that come up with a name for one.

Any responses would be greatly appreciated (double so if they are rapid!)

Thanks in advance

Kaun
-the slightly flustered

[TheOOB]

I know Renraku does some security work, the Red Samurai in particular are pretty nasty, but I don't think they do anything large scale. Could be adapted for your game though(Just make the Red Samurai Public Security Division).

Honestly, any Mega will have a public security division, I just don't know their names, but Wuxing, Shiwase, and Mitsuhama could all work for you.

Possible names made up on the spot: Shinsengumi for any of the Japan corps, White Lotus for Wuxing, Tenchu for a Japancorp.

[Kaun]

Originally Posted by TheOOB

I know Renraku does some security work, the Red Samurai in particular are pretty nasty, but I don't think they do anything large scale. Could be adapted for your game though(Just make the Red Samurai Public Security Division).

Honestly, any Mega will have a public security division, I just don't know their names, but Wuxing, Shiwase, and Mitsuhama could all work for you.

Possible names made up on the spot: Shinsengumi for any of the Japan corps, White Lotus for Wuxing, Tenchu for a Japancorp.

Thanks!

I think Wuxing are going to be the major stake holder in the city and i like the idea of the "White Lotus Public Security Division"!

Now to come up with some common nicknames for them.

Maybe flowers? or white heads. hmmm

suggestions welcome.

[TheOOB]

The white lotus was a group that held a revolution in China in the 1700's(the group is Buddist from what I can tell, my Chinese history comes mostly from Dynasty Warriors Games). It's a name Chinese speakers would recognize and could well be resurrected by a corp hoping to bank on historical name recognition.

[Kaun]

hmm interesting to know.

I have been mulling over a a decent (slightly derogatory) nickname that they are generally referred to by the unwashed masses.

The polices here are generally called the "coppers" or the "pigs", i see american police referred to as "5.0" ect ect.

I need something short and catchy.

so far im not doing well tho

[TheOOB]

wú​yòng, means useless. Searched Wikipedias list of Chinese profanity. The internet has everything.

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by Kaun

[color="Red"][My game is set in my home city of Melbourne Australia and in my game Australia in general has been largely annexed by Asia based corps (Japs, Chinese, Koreans ect.) So i would prefer a security corp that would fit more with that idea.

I have yet to track down a security corp that fits the bill but if anybody could point me in the right direction of one it would be much appreciated.

Or failing that come up with a name for one.

Any responses would be greatly appreciated (double so if they are rapid!)

Thanks in advance

Kaun
-the slightly flustered

Arasaka

P.S.
A bit obscure but for a nickname for Wuxing security the Si Fan were the brainwashed cult of assassins that served Fu Manchu in the Sax Rohmer novels.

[big teej]

alrighty, I'm going to take advantage of the 'anybody can ask stuff' clause and pose my own question.


I've just finished reading the Shadowrun 20th anniversery rulebook cover to cover. (okay, I've got maybe 15 pages of 'gear' section left to read, but I've looked at most of it for chargen)

I feel fairly solid on mundanes (as in, no hackers, technomancers, or mages)

(I'm sure I'll figure those out with a second reading of the rules... heck I think I could manage a mage now)

but uhm...

I didn't see (anywhere) guidelines for how much jobs are worth....

any ideas?
halp!

[Dimestoretiamat]

Alright here is a party update. Looks like we have a face in the hobo wizard. He has negotiation and etiquette so as long as he takes a bath we should be ok. He is also specializing in antispirit combat (Astral Combat and Banish). The troll just got made and he is everything a troll is, big, tough and armed to the teeth. I still have a hacker, rigger, and adept to make but I have a good feeling about the well-roundedness of the party.

[Dimestoretiamat]

Originally Posted by big teej

alrighty, I'm going to take advantage of the 'anybody can ask stuff' clause and pose my own question.


I've just finished reading the Shadowrun 20th anniversery rulebook cover to cover. (okay, I've got maybe 15 pages of 'gear' section left to read, but I've looked at most of it for chargen)

I feel fairly solid on mundanes (as in, no hackers, technomancers, or mages)

(I'm sure I'll figure those out with a second reading of the rules... heck I think I could manage a mage now)

but uhm...

I didn't see (anywhere) guidelines for how much jobs are worth....

any ideas?
halp!

Start with a fairly low sum like 5000 nuyen a runner and have the face negotiate from there. That way the players have a bit of say in their reward and become more immersed in the game.

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

Start with a fairly low sum like 5000 nuyen a runner and have the face negotiate from there. That way the players have a bit of say in their reward and become more immersed in the game.

I'd say 5k a runner is pretty high, actually, unless they're doing some pretty serious, life-risking runs.

Datasteal on a high-security Yakuza-operated casino? That'd probably net 5k base a head, especially if they can't "compensate" themselves in other ways.

Sabotaging a single-A corp's endeavours for five days, though? That's not going to net as much money, especially if the PCs are given some freedom in choosing how they go about it.

[big teej]

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

Start with a fairly low sum like 5000 nuyen a runner and have the face negotiate from there. That way the players have a bit of say in their reward and become more immersed in the game.

that does sound rather low.....

as the game progresses should I start adjusting that based on the type/difficulty of the job and how experienced they are?

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by big teej

that does sound rather low...

Low? That's making a month's rent in one job. If you make one run a week, you can get a fancy new gun or piece of cyberware every month without ever dipping into your rent money with that kind of budget. If you get that as the baseline, and can negotiate for more, and have the opportunity to bolster your coffers via on-the-job scavenging, then you'll probably get a lot of shiny toys each month.

Originally Posted by big teej

as the game progresses should I start adjusting that based on the type/difficulty of the job and how experienced they are?

Oh, definitely. I wouldn't have any qualms about giving a team of experienced runners with a good reputation 5k a head to, say, sneak into a corporate resort to assassinate an executive who's about to make an important decision, but I almost certainly wouldn't entrust either aspect of that to a bunch of newbies.

[big teej]

Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard

Low? That's making a month's rent in one job. If you make one run a week, you can get a fancy new gun or piece of cyberware every month without ever dipping into your rent money with that kind of budget. If you get that as the baseline, and can negotiate for more, and have the opportunity to bolster your coffers via on-the-job scavenging, then you can live like a rockstar between runs.

Oh, definitely. I wouldn't have any qualms about giving a team of experienced runners with a good reputation 5k a head to, say, sneak into a corporate resort to assassinate an executive who's about to make an important decision, but I almost certainly wouldn't entrust either aspect of that to a bunch of newbies.

it's low when half your shopping list is in the 5 digit numbers