Shadowrun 4th ed. Questions

[Mark Hall]

Originally Posted by TheOOB

I will fully admit I haven't played pre 4e editions as much as I would like, but that doesn't change the fact that 4e's chara creation is terri-bad.

How, though? I haven't found it to be that horrible in the campaigns I've played. Complex, yes. But not bad.

[DigoDragon]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

TL; DR? My experience is that the system in 4e encourages a bit of spread of non-essential abilities. People are willing to sacrifice that 6 in Quickness to spread out and be at least minimally competent in other things.

I can agree with that. I've played 3rd & 4th editions and my experience is that the latter version saw my players spreading their skills sets a bit to overlap each other. This allowed one to be the "Backup" for another.

One run got particularly interesting when the party's hacker got knocked out in a Matrix fight and it was up to the Technomancer (who specialized in rigging drones, not hacking) to try and finish the data steal. A few points overlapping in the hacker's skillset made the difference between eating that week or going hungry.

[TheOOB]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

How, though? I haven't found it to be that horrible in the campaigns I've played. Complex, yes. But not bad.

It's because of the way the BP system works. Since BP provides a flat cost for everything, compared to karmas BP cost, the system strongly encourages you to literally min max. For attributes(before metatype mods), you should only have a 1 or a 5, and for skills a 0 or a 4. You are hurting yourself with some serious BP inefficiency if you buy low to mid rank attributes and skills. Other things just have weird costs in BP(Like how skill groups cost the same as attributes for some reason, or why complex forms are crazy expensive). Many negative qualities also do not provide a penalty proportional to their benefit, meaning every character gains 35 BP for very little penalty.

Further, it's too easy to make a really powerful character. Non awakened characters often don't have far to go before they are maxed out with karma. Their key attributes are already 1 below max, their skills at max or only 2 below max, positive qualities are too expensive during play. This means your only choice for karma during play is to raise areas where your character is weaker, meaning you'll likely only get much better in your specialized field via very expensive 'ware.

In short, the 4e system tends to create characters who are stupid powerful in their chosen field, and worthless outside of that.

[Mark Hall]

While I can somewhat agree on skills and their cost to increase in game, I think you're way off on attributes... it assumes a far more mechanistic approach to the game than I tend to see.

[TheOOB]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

While I can somewhat agree on skills and their cost to increase in game, I think you're way off on attributes... it assumes a far more mechanistic approach to the game than I tend to see.

Unfortunately, it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. The higher you purchase up an attribute(without hitting max), the better BP to karma exchange rate you get. Thus, the system encourages you to get base 5 on as many attributes as possible, and spend as little bp on lesser attributes at possible. Doing anything else will make a less efficient character. How you play the game or roleplaying and whatnot is sadly irrelevant. The extreme nature of the BP systems flat costs encourages certain types of characters, and discourages others. Anyways, some math.

Assuming a human, it costs 10 BP or 10 Karma to raise an attribute from 1 to 2, which is a 1:1 Karma to BP ratio, which is terrible(as a BP is supposed to roughly equal 2 karma). On the other hand, raising an attribute from 1 to 5 costs 40 BP and 70 Karma, which is a 1.75:1 Karma to BP ratio, that is to say you are getting nearly double karma efficiency. If you are playing a metatype with increase attributes, this effect is compounded. A Troll raising their Body to 9 would spend 40BP but 150! Karma, thats a 3.75:1 Karma to BP ratio. If playing a Troll you'd be foolish not to raise your Body high with BP.

While personal preference can be nice, and many choices in RPG come down more to personal choice rather than pure mercenary mathematics, however how to build a character in SR is not one of those choices. There is an efficient way, and an inefficient way, a right way, and a wrong way, and that's why I think the SR character creation system is bad.

[Reluctance]

You have a point on raising stats when your race provides a big boost, and on qualities. Then again, SR has qualities such as "only allow players to buy this trait if they want to buy this trait" and "you get bonus points because you'll never be able to fly a space shuttle", so that's more about a specific element being over a decade behind the times (do not give game-mechanical benefits for role-playing penalties) than the whole character creation process being broken.

Otherwise, the skill caps guarantee that, between grouped skills and ones that aren't singled out for your solo six, there'll be room to grow. Throw in skills like Stealth that every runner has use for, closely related skills (your samurai might want some unarmed for times when sneaking an assault rifle isn't an option), and you'll have things you want to do with your karma for a long time coming.

While you can minmax karma output per BP, I'm skeptical how much actual difference there is in play. Flawed, but I'm not seeing the terribad,

[wadledo]

Originally Posted by TheOOB

While personal preference can be nice, and many choices in RPG come down more to personal choice rather than pure mercenary mathematics, however how to build a character in SR is not one of those choices. There is an efficient way, and an inefficient way, a right way, and a wrong way, and that's why I think the SR character creation system is bad.

So, what's the one true build?
If it all comes down to mathematics no matter what, what is the absolute most efficient build for everything and anything, and why doesn't everyone play it?

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by wadledo

So, what's the one true build?
If it all comes down to mathematics no matter what, what is the absolute most efficient build for everything and anything, and why doesn't everyone play it?

It winds up being different for each Archetype you are shooting for. Elf Mage, Troll Sammie, and so on. I belive that has been mentioned at some point in the past in this thread. Or maybe I just thought it had.

[wadledo]

Originally Posted by Codemus

It winds up being different for each Archetype you are shooting for. Elf Mage, Troll Sammie, and so on. I belive that has been mentioned at some point in the past in this thread. Or maybe I just thought it had.

The point is that if everything is up to the math, then there should obviously be one true build that accomplishes everything better than all other builds.

The joke is that, since it's a role playing game, there obviously isn't one, since you are playing more for fun than to 'win,' but TheOOB seems to care more about mathematical efficiency than fun.

[Seerow]

Originally Posted by TheOOB

It's because of the way the BP system works. Since BP provides a flat cost for everything, compared to karmas BP cost, the system strongly encourages you to literally min max. For attributes(before metatype mods), you should only have a 1 or a 5, and for skills a 0 or a 4. You are hurting yourself with some serious BP inefficiency if you buy low to mid rank attributes and skills. Other things just have weird costs in BP(Like how skill groups cost the same as attributes for some reason, or why complex forms are crazy expensive). Many negative qualities also do not provide a penalty proportional to their benefit, meaning every character gains 35 BP for very little penalty.

Further, it's too easy to make a really powerful character. Non awakened characters often don't have far to go before they are maxed out with karma. Their key attributes are already 1 below max, their skills at max or only 2 below max, positive qualities are too expensive during play. This means your only choice for karma during play is to raise areas where your character is weaker, meaning you'll likely only get much better in your specialized field via very expensive 'ware.

In short, the 4e system tends to create characters who are stupid powerful in their chosen field, and worthless outside of that.

Nothing you've said tells me that BP character building is bad. Everything you've said to me points to Karma progression being poorly thought out and overpriced in a lot of areas.

If you let characters advance with BP instead of Karma, then most of your problems with the system go away. Because then, there's no reason not to have middling skills or attributes, because if you want them you'll have to pay that amount anyway. There's no reason not to put off some of those positive qualities because they'll cost the same either way, etc.

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by wadledo

The point is that if everything is up to the math, then there should obviously be one true build that accomplishes everything better than all other builds.

The joke is that, since it's a role playing game, there obviously isn't one, since you are playing more for fun than to 'win,' but TheOOB seems to care more about mathematical efficiency than fun.

Well I don't want to step into something here, so I am of no opinion on the current argument. I find the game fun, and while it isn't the strongest game around mechanicaly, that in no way detracts from the experiance for me.

[BobVosh]

Originally Posted by Seerow

Nothing you've said tells me that BP character building is bad. Everything you've said to me points to Karma progression being poorly thought out and overpriced in a lot of areas.

If you let characters advance with BP instead of Karma, then most of your problems with the system go away. Because then, there's no reason not to have middling skills or attributes, because if you want them you'll have to pay that amount anyway. There's no reason not to put off some of those positive qualities because they'll cost the same either way, etc.

It would probably be better to match the BP system to the Karma system actually. Although you should definitely make the costs ignore benefits from race for cost. That said I've never really gotten too far into SR as each group died before it could take off.

Question time. Power Focus seems to be incredibly useful, more so than the others. Is there any reason to not start with a maxed or near maxed one? Is there a cost difference I can't find?

[Mark Hall]

Originally Posted by BobVosh

Question time. Power Focus seems to be incredibly useful, more so than the others. Is there any reason to not start with a maxed or near maxed one? Is there a cost difference I can't find?

There is a cost difference, but I'm AFB. Power focuses are hella expensive; in the 20th Anniversary book, the costs facing the page of vehicle stats, IIRC.

[a_humble_lich]

The other big difference is power foci have a much higher availability. If you are limited to availability 12 gear, you can get a rating 2 power focus and a rating 4 spellcasting focus.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by BobVosh

Question time. Power Focus seems to be incredibly useful, more so than the others. Is there any reason to not start with a maxed or near maxed one? Is there a cost difference I can't find?

The big limiter is availability. Power (and weapon) foci have an availability of (forcex5)R, while all other foci have (forcex4)R. Given the availability cap of 12, your force 2 focus is a nice investment but you have room to get more. Nuyen costs and the like are listed in the equipment chapter. (Layout is poor, this we know.)

...

Having given TheOOB's argument a bit more thought, he's really only saying two things about the BP<>karma exchange rate, and one is a no-brainer. The first is that playing against your race's strengths is at best a waste and liable to be a karma sinkhole. Physical-dumping troll hackers are either working on a poor racial chassis, or will be paying a huge premium if they want to boost Body and Strength later. This should not be surprising to anybody with a shred of op-fu.

Second, you get a better exchange rate by making sure that you have high ratings in your core competencies than you do playing a jack of all trades who splashes everything. Giving it a moment's thought, you're more likely to enjoy playing a character who's mechanically good at what they're supposed to be good at than one who's mediocre at everything. Assuming the same race and archetype, I doubt there'd be much difference in real karma efficiency between builds.

[TheOOB]

I'd agree that my problem with the creation system stems mainly from the BP to Karma conversation rates. It's a problem any creation system that uses a different system for advancement than it does for creation. Shadowrun just takes these problems a bit further, by having high caps and such a huge BP to Karma disparity, the system becames a)overly complex, and b)strongly encourages super specialists.

Lets take a look at a good character creation system. Legend of the Five Rings 4e has one of the best character creation system for an attribute and skill based RPG. You start by making a few basic decisions about your character(in this case what Clan/family you're from, and what school you studied in), which gives you a few attribute bonuses/skills, and then it just gives you a bunch of experience points to finish off your character. The only way for way character to be slightly more xp efficient at creation than another is to try to double up their school/family attribute bonus, which a) usually isn't possible, and b)only provides a 3xp net benefit, which is hardly game breaking.

In that system you can create the character you want. If you want two points in calligraphy, you can without hurting your character(in fact any skills will make your character more powerful). The caps at creation are also low enough compared to the max that it is a)easy to be good at something to start, and b)you'll always have room to grow.

The best part is this system is simple, and hard to abuse. I've played games with good creation systems, and I've played games with bad creation systems, and SR4 is strongly in the latter camp.

[BobVosh]

I meant for BP, but I suppose the same limiter is there. Thanks guys.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by BobVosh

I meant for BP, but I suppose the same limiter is there. Thanks guys.

Nope. Same 1 BP per force that any other focus has. Nuyen, availability, and the rule about only being able to apply one focus to a given dice pool are the rules intended to keep this in line.

(Power foci being poorly worded and adding directly to a rating rather than to a dice pool. Most GMs won't let you get away with that, though.)

[Poil]

Is it worth to pick up a 10 BP version of In Debt to increase edge from 4 to 5 and buy some extra gear at start? Even if the DM rules that you have to buy off the negative quality for 20 karma it's still 30 karma cheaper than increasing edge later on. How does that even work anyway? You're not allowed to make the final payment until you've spent the karma? Or do you simply not gain any karma for a few runs? How in the world is that justified in character?

I could be wrong but it seems like unless your DM is a bit stingy with nuyen rewards all the extra BP and money you get at start makes it a really awesome "flaw" to pick up without any real down side if you're playing an awakened character.

[BobVosh]

So just made a mage, seems like a fairly fun magic system. Any completely counterintuitive things I should know? Any angles that may not be very obvious that I should help protect the party from?

[wadledo]

Originally Posted by Poil

Is it worth to pick up a 10 BP version of In Debt to increase edge from 4 to 5 and buy some extra gear at start? Even if the DM rules that you have to buy off the negative quality for 20 karma it's still 30 karma cheaper than increasing edge later on. How does that even work anyway? You're not allowed to make the final payment until you've spent the karma? Or do you simply not gain any karma for a few runs? How in the world is that justified in character?

I could be wrong but it seems like unless your DM is a bit stingy with nuyen rewards all the extra BP and money you get at start makes it a really awesome "flaw" to pick up without any real down side if you're playing an awakened character.

In Debt is the best Negative ever.
I once got 35 points from In Debt. It was wonderful.

[TheCountAlucard]

Seconded. Ever since people in my group ran the numbers, pretty much every time I run a game, someone asks me, "Can I take In Debt?"

[wadledo]

Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard

Seconded. Ever since people in my group ran the numbers, pretty much every time I run a game, someone asks me, "Can I take In Debt?"

Hey, I spent all that money on an auto-repair shop and lodge for my Elf-Shinto priest gearhead/street racer.

Turning the game into The Fast and The Furious was one of the best things I had ever done.

[TheOOB]

In debt is the only negative quality in which your character is actually better for it.

[Cieyrin]

Originally Posted by wadledo

Turning the game into The Fast and The Furious was one of the best things I had ever done.

Your Shadowrun game normally isn't?

[wadledo]

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Your Shadowrun game normally isn't?

No, sadly.

Also, another Negative Quality that is surprisingly advantageous.
Day Job.

Combine with any level of Fame and you have a very good moneymaker, especially if you do something like Blog.

Probably the best way for an AI to make money.

[Codemus]

Is Fame a quality? I'm missing some books, so I haven't heard of In Debt before either. What does that do? Because it sounds bad, but what you guys are saying about it is at odds with the whole "Negative" aspect.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by Codemus

Is Fame a quality? I'm missing some books, so I haven't heard of In Debt before either. What does that do? Because it sounds bad, but what you guys are saying about it is at odds with the whole "Negative" aspect.

It means you owe someone money. In a gross abortion of mechanical soundness, instead of being a purely negative debt, the amount can be spent on starting gear. That's right. The more free money you start out with, the higher the value of the flaw and the more BP you get out of it. (You'll have to pay off the debt with interest, but it's still a huge bump at chargen.)

Day Job is similar. Your character, who makes a living breaking laws and getting shot at, happens to have a legitimate employment complete with income. It's either free points to roleplay calling to give your two weeks notice, bonus income for your character, and/or a complete undermining of setting logic.

[The Random NPC]

All three are in the Runner's Companion.

[wadledo]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Day Job is similar. Your character, who makes a living breaking laws and getting shot at, happens to have a legitimate employment complete with income. It's either free points to roleplay calling to give your two weeks notice, bonus income for your character, and/or a complete undermining of setting logic.

Though admittedly, it could also mean that you have a day job at your families store that you have to work around, or that you (as a personal example) have a news-blog where you talk about concerts and bands.

Day Job isn't the worst Negative Quality, though as I said, with Fame it can get kinda silly.