Older D&D/AD&D and Other SystemsThe forum for discussions specifically related to the rules and procedures of either any of the older editions of Dungeons & Dragons (1e, 2e, BECMI, OD&D) or any other non-D&D roleplaying rules (Vampire: The Requiem, Dread), including non-fantasy d20 systems (such as Mutants & Masterminds).
it's low when half your shopping list is in the 5 digit numbers
Oh, I'm sure it is. And when you have 100 Karma or so to justify getting paid that much, it wouldn't be too surprising to have a five-digit shinies budget. Until then, it probably shouldn't be on your "shopping list," it should be on your WISHlist.
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Abyssal avatar by Gnomish Wanderer!
I'd say 5k a runner is pretty high, actually, unless they're doing some pretty serious, life-risking runs.
Datasteal on a high-security Yakuza-operated casino? That'd probably net 5k base a head, especially if they can't "compensate" themselves in other ways.
Sabotaging a single-A corp's endeavours for five days, though? That's not going to net as much money, especially if the PCs are given some freedom in choosing how they go about it.
5k per runner is extremely low for a run. I wouldn't walk across the street for less money, and I wouldn't take a run where I expect to get shot at for less than 10k. Remember that a karma is worth approx 2.5k nuyen, and if you give more karma than nuyen your awakened characters will become overpowered while your gear dependent characters will suck.
If you can't afford those kinds of fees for the skill, professionalism, and deniability of a true shadowrunner, just hire a street punk. Shadowrunners are not just criminals, a shadowrunner is something more. They get paid well or not at all.
Remember that the runners should be spending 1-2k just on ammunition and consumable resources on some runs, and they often need to lay low for weeks/months at a time, so lifestyles add up. A runner making 5k for a run might not be able to pay the bills.
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"It wasn't me who was wrong, it was the world!"
Remember that a karma is worth approx 2.5k nuyen...
Where was this established, again?
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
...and if you give more karma than nuyen your awakened characters will become overpowered while your gear dependent characters will suck.
But if the tech-dependent crew is getting as much nuyen pre-negotiation as the awakened characters are getting Karma, then that swings things unfairly in the favor of the non-awakened characters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOOB
If you can't afford those kinds of fees for the skill, professionalism, and deniability of a true shadowrunner, just hire a street punk. Shadowrunners are not just criminals, a shadowrunner is something more. They get paid well or not at all.
At this point, I've gotta ask, what game are you playing? Half of the game's fluff is about how the runners are motivated by the desperation of potential poverty, and how they've gotta do whatever it takes to get by. Some of the published adventures are literally just courier missions.
No offense intended, but your argument smacks of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
Remember that the runners should be spending 1-2k just on ammunition and consumable resources on some runs, and they often need to lay low for weeks/months at a time, so lifestyles add up.
I've literally gone entire campaigns without spending 2k on ammunition.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
A runner making 5k for a run might not be able to pay the bills.
Again, this was 5k base, with no haggling. If you don't have a Face to negotiate good pay, you should be just as bad off as a group without a street sam or hacker.
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Abyssal avatar by Gnomish Wanderer!
But if the tech-dependent crew is getting as much nuyen pre-negotiation as the awakened characters are getting Karma, then that swings things unfairly in the favor of the non-awakened characters.
Thats kind of a fallacy. First of all, you have to give a ton of nuyen before mundanes start to eclipse awakened characters(magic is powerful), and awakened characters can benefit from gear, more than a hacker or rigger can benefit from excess karma at least.
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At this point, I've gotta ask, what game are you playing? Half of the game's fluff is about how the runners are motivated by the desperation of potential poverty, and how they've gotta do whatever it takes to get by. Some of the published adventures are literally just courier missions.
No offense intended, but your argument smacks of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
Just because you bring up a fallacy doesn't mean it's true. Most of the lore never says exactly how much runners get paid, and the official adventures always offer notoriously low payments(which is partly evidenced by how many new players since awakened characters are overpowered, in some games the awakened characters have initiated and raised their magic before the sammi gets a 'ware upgrade.).
In any case, a Shadowrunner is a profession, they are not just some street tough. The whole set of rituals behind Mr. Johnsons and the hiring process, the deniability, the emphasis on street cred. These are all in place because Shadowrunners are a cut above the rest. A shadowrunner isn't a criminal down on their luck who goes freelance, they are an extremely skilled individual who, for one reason or another, are unable or unwilling to use their skills legitimately. Many are forced into the life, but if you are not exceptional, you'll be dead quickly.
As for the poverty, it's because shadowrunning is a viscous cycle. In order to survive in the shadows, you need the best gear, safehouse, 'ware, fake SIN's, ect. That's all expensive. When a shadowrunner gets a fat payout, they have to make a choice, do they pay to increase their living conditions a little, or drop some money down on that new piece of 'ware that will save their life. Most pick the later.
Further, the rules of the game, especially the character creation system, implies powerful characters. The BP system not only allows, but encourages you to play characters with high attributes and high skills, if you don't raise important attributes to 5, and important skills to 4, you are not using the BP system as it was designed. If they didn't want you playing elite powerful characters, they wouldn't have made the creation system designed to encourage those kind of characters.
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I've literally gone entire campaigns without spending 2k on ammunition.
Again, this was 5k base, with no haggling.
You've obviously never loaded APDS rounds into a light machine gun. Or used suppresive fire with stick-n-shock, eats through money fast.
Also, read my post, I said ammunition and consumable resources. Fake SINS, favors from contacts, bribes, latex face masks, fake fingerprints, ect. all cost money. Often a lot of money.
Haggling is all well and good, but that's still low. If I'm playing a professional shadowrunner, and I'm asked to break into an extraterritorial building where I will be shot on sight, steal something, get out, and know that if I get caught my employer will deny me, and he doesn't at least offer two months of mid lifestyle as his opening big, I'll walk out. There's lowballing, and then there is insulting me by not making a good faith offer.
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"It wasn't me who was wrong, it was the world!"
If I'm playing a professional shadowrunner, and I'm asked to break into an extraterritorial building where I will be shot on sight, steal something, get out, and know that if I get caught my employer will deny me, and he doesn't at least offer two months of mid lifestyle as his opening big, I'll walk out. There's lowballing, and then there is insulting me by not making a good faith offer.
Shadowrun is all about the ugly side of capitalism, the Johnson has the creds and the choice to shop around therefore he has the power. What you consider a low ball the next runner might consider a fair deal...
Nobody gets rich paying more then they have to for something, its all about the bottom line.
Runners are just specialized subcontractors who are going to need to convince potential employers that they can get the job done for a cheap price. Sure if you get a decent enough rep you will be able to start asking for better rates but then the Johnsons are only going to come to you when the work is hard.
The cloak and dagger battlefields between the corporations in shadowrun make the cold war look like a cat fight in tween tv drama. That kind of environment is going to breed people with "shadowrun type" skill sets like rabbits, you're never going to be the only "man" for the job.
At the end of the day a group of Shadowrunners are just a hand full of people with interesting skill sets and a dislike for 9 to 5 jobs up against these massive glob spanning financial empires that are the mega corps.
The corps are the have's the runners are the have not's.
The best the runners can really hope for is to eek out an ok existence while praying their paranoia and resourcefulness are enough to keep them from being crushed under the giant jackboot of corporate greed.
..and hell their are a lot of people a damn site worse of then runners when it comes to employment in the 70's, half of them would probably consider getting shot at if it meant they could make even a couple thousand creds for a weeks work.
Thats kind of a fallacy. First of all, you have to give a ton of nuyen before mundanes start to eclipse awakened characters(magic is powerful), and awakened characters can benefit from gear, more than a hacker or rigger can benefit from excess karma at least.
You can start with a ton of nuyen.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
Just because you bring up a fallacy doesn't mean it's true.
Fair enough, but you did use the phrase "true shadowrunner." I'm not going to tell a player that because he didn't get a tag eraser at chargen, he's not really a shadowrunner, nor am I going to tell the player of an adept who didn't start out with a maxed-out Magic score that he's playing his character wrong.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
Further, the rules of the game, especially the character creation system, implies powerful characters. The BP system not only allows, but encourages you to play characters with high attributes and high skills, if you don't raise important attributes to 5, and important skills to 4, you are not using the BP system as it was designed. If they didn't want you playing elite powerful characters, they wouldn't have made the creation system designed to encourage those kind of characters.
That you have mystically divined the exact intent of the devs to ascertain this seems suspect to me. I, at least, have entertained the possibility that they were just playing it by ear to make a fun game for people to play, and that not every decision on their part was a deliberate choice to make the game incentivize certain options.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
You've obviously never loaded APDS rounds into a light machine gun.
You know what? You're absolutely right. I haven't. I have never needed to, either. I won't doubt the possibility that others have had to, but it's just something I've not done in over five years of experience with Shadowrun.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
Also, read my post...
Oh, I did. I just picked ammunition specifically because it's someting I've not really spent a lot of money on. I'll go ahead and go through the rest of your list now, though...
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
Fake SINS...
Fair enough, I've thrown quite a bit of money at fake SINs in at least one game. In another, I had a contact who counterfeited SINs for the mob, and he was able to save me quite a bundle.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
...favors from contacts...
This, I've done less of. For the most part, my character keeps contacts who need him to do jobs. My one exception to that was when the GM permitted me to buy FastJack as a contact, and while I straight-up sent him a Macguffin when we were done with a Matrix-related adventure, it was more because my character saw him as a mentor and a friend.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
...bribes...
That's also something I've not done a lot. While quite a few of our runs had us finding out things we shouldn't or getting into places we shouldn't, we did that mostly through confidence games and old-fashioned social engineering.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
...latex face masks...
Okay, I have spent quite a bit on that when I was playing a face, but that was because he was a trid actor by day (and thus had the SINner, Fame, and Day Job qualities) and had to keep his rear covered.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
...fake fingerprints...
That's also something I've not spent money on.
If it's a matter of not being traced at a crime scene, most of the time my characters just wear gloves, and our mage will use that spell that neutralizes the DNA signatures in blood, hair, et cetera.
If it's a matter of getting past a fingerprint scanner, we usually just hack the security system, or con our way past it.
If it's a matter of pinning something on someone else, well, we really haven't done anything like that.
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
ect.
Assuming you mean "et cetera" here. That's usually abbreviated as "etc."
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Originally Posted by TheOOB
If I'm playing a professional shadowrunner...
If a shadowrunner is considered a professional, he's probably not chargen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOOB
...and I'm asked to break into an extraterritorial building where I will be shot on sight, steal something, get out, and know that if I get caught my employer will deny me, and he doesn't at least offer two months of mid lifestyle as his opening big, I'll walk out.
Point made; if the Johnson is expecting you-getting-shot-at to be a significant on-the-job risk, it should most definitely factor into the equation. On the other hand, such jobs probably wouldn't go to an unestablished runner in the first place.
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Abyssal avatar by Gnomish Wanderer!
it's low when half your shopping list is in the 5 digit numbers
Your shopping list is only in the 5 digits?
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If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic. No, really. Don't bite my head off for saying the Fighter is way overpowered, or how Wizards need more spells per day to keep up.
Sure, a rating 3 deltaware move-by-wire system is going to be pretty nifty, but it's not something you just pick up along with some canned soysauges at the Stuffer Shack.
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Abyssal avatar by Gnomish Wanderer!
Can someone help me understand how HMHVV I spreads (it's the infected strain for banshee, dzoo-noo-qua, goblin, nosferatu, vampire and wendigo)? It has rules for what to roll if you catch the disease, but it can apparently only infect you through the Infection power which requires the infected to roll a cha+mag against the victim's bod+wil (pretty much a coin flip). So before mr nasty vampire makes good on his threat to infect you he must first succeed with the drain essence rolls until you're at 0, succeed at the infection roll and then you must fail the disease roll. Have I got that right?
For comparison all it takes for you to catch the HMHVV II or III is to have a fomóraig or ghoul spit in your mouth.
Sure, a rating 3 deltaware move-by-wire system is going to be pretty nifty, but it's not something you just pick up along with some canned soysauges at the Stuffer Shack.
That's also more like 7 digits.
6 digit items are really common in shadowrun, and after your first few runs are basically all that you are going to have left as far as upgrades go. I mean, if I'm playing a tech based character, stuff that's around the 10-20k range I already have at character gen, unless it has a high availability. So you figure a few high avail items from the money for the first few missions, but once you snag those, you've got nowhere to go but buying really expensive stuff. At 5k nuyen a head, you're looking at 4-5 runs before you can afford even the moderate upgrades. 20 runs before you can get anything good. And that awesome 'wish list' quality stuff is something that you will never see in any realistic time of playing a game.
That's the problem with Shadowrun, prices on gear upgrades go up MUCH faster than prices on magic/karma upgrades, so any Karma:Money balance point is going to constantly shift based on how much money/karma the group already has.
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If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic. No, really. Don't bite my head off for saying the Fighter is way overpowered, or how Wizards need more spells per day to keep up.
At 5k nuyen a head, you're looking at 4-5 runs before you can afford even the moderate upgrades. 20 runs before you can get anything good. And that awesome 'wish list' quality stuff is something that you will never see in any realistic time of playing a game.
Why is it people keep missing the whole bit about it being the base payment? Negotiation between runner and Johnson is a time-honored tradition. Selling off loot and doing side-jobs are both also time-honored traditions. Going into a corp hospital to steal a medical file? Be sure and swipe some pill bottles, they'll fetch a nice price at the clinic on the other side of town. Sabotaging a single-A corp to drive down its stock prices? Steal a few of their security drones while you're infiltrating the place. Sneaking into a corporate ski resort to find a smuggler's dropped cargo? Might as well fish around for some valuable paydata.
Sure, if Mr. Johnson tells you, "No scrounging, and also you might get shot," then yeah, he's going to need to offer you a higher asking price. But unless that happens, you're probably going to get by just fine.
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Abyssal avatar by Gnomish Wanderer!
As you can see, you have stumbled into one of the most contentious issues in Shadowrun. Every time I've seen it brought up it devolves into long and at times heated discussions. I will say that the couple published adventures I quickly scanned through have a base pay of about 1,500 ¥ to 2,500 ¥ and the Dawn of Artifacts series pays PCs 2,250 ¥ per day (and I think there is a bonus at the end).
Personally I think that is on the low side and when I would GM I'd pay 10-20,000 ¥ per run, but I also ran a higher powered game with fairly rapid advancement. Which is the nice thing about Shadowrun, you can play it many different ways, from street level thugs to Ocean's 11 style con men.
Edit: And to clarify that was the base pay, the published adventures have a whole formula to increase the pay with additional negotiation and also the players can choose how difficult they want the run to be and that will also increase the pay.
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Will S.
Last edited by a_humble_lich : 06-17-2012 at 02:57 PM.
Why is it people keep missing the whole bit about it being the base payment? Negotiation between runner and Johnson is a time-honored tradition. Selling off loot and doing side-jobs are both also time-honored traditions. Going into a corp hospital to steal a medical file? Be sure and swipe some pill bottles, they'll fetch a nice price at the clinic on the other side of town. Sabotaging a single-A corp to drive down its stock prices? Steal a few of their security drones while you're infiltrating the place. Sneaking into a corporate ski resort to find a smuggler's dropped cargo? Might as well fish around for some valuable paydata.
Sure, if Mr. Johnson tells you, "No scrounging, and also you might get shot," then yeah, he's going to need to offer you a higher asking price. But unless that happens, you're probably going to get by just fine.
Negotiations are % based. If base pay is 2 grand a head, you're incredibly lucky if you're walking out with more than 2200 a head. So when we're talking about low base payment amounts, negotiation doesn't add much. Unless the PC is running a pornomancer and the johnson is incompetent and rolling like 5 dice, but that doesn't happen.
As for looting stuff, I can't speak for your games but I know for my games loot was rarely an option, or at least a very productive one. Short of going out and stealing big ticket items like cars (which btw Shadowrunners will totally do instead of runs if Johnson's don't offer enough money, because cars are worth a lot of money and are relatively easy to steal. And it's all illegal anyway), your loot is going to be valued in the hundred of nuyen, not tens of thousands, unless you're hauling away corpses to steal 'ware from and sell to ghouls, which I don't think I've ever been in a group who didn't have some sort of moral issue against that.
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If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic. No, really. Don't bite my head off for saying the Fighter is way overpowered, or how Wizards need more spells per day to keep up.
Actually, I've seen it vary quite a bit. So as not to spoil it for anyone who hasn't played, here's the payments from the Denver Missions in spoiler tags, as well as how much can be netted from negotations, if anything.
Spoiler
Parliament of Thieves: Compensation will be provided half now
and half by the recipient. The job pays (2,500¥ + 500¥ * TR) per runner. Each net hit on a negotiation test will increase the payment by (100¥ * TR).
Best Served Cold: "I’ll pay you 1,000¥ each now and [2,000¥
+(2000¥ * TR)] more when you are done." Negotiations can get more money up front, up to half the pay but will not yield more money overall. Each net success for the PCs will yield an additional advance of 500¥.
The Grab: "The work pays (((3,000¥ + (2,000¥ * TR)) *(Number of PCs)) to the whole team. You can divide that up however you prefer. I can give you 10% up front as a retainer, and to help with your expenses. Are you in or out?" Lady Jade will increase the team’s total fee by ten percent for each net hit, to a maximum of fifty percent. This does not affect the total of the initial retainer.
Thrash the Body Electric: Pay is 1,000¥ (xTR) each up front, and an additional (2,000¥ + (2,000¥xTR) each upon completion. In addition, they are welcome to any inventory or equipment that comes into their possession during this operation. The Johnson will consider adjustments to the deal, using Opposed Negotiation tests, with each net success adding an additional 500¥ x TR each.
Through a Rose-Colored Display Link: The price is 2000¥ now and 3000¥ +(TR*2000¥) when the team provides proof that the job is complete. The Don is also willing to negotiate with instead offering compensation in terms of Mob-provided equipment or fake licenses/SINs.
Each player can use Negotiation net hits to do two things. They can ask for multiple things but it must total the number of hits from Negotiations:
Raise the rating of a fake license/SIN they purchase through the family (max rating 6).
Purchase an item of availability higher than 12, 1 point above per hit (max rating 15).
The Flip Side: The price being offered is 1,000 ¥ now and 3,000+(1,500* TR) ¥ to be paid upon delivery. Each net hit on an opposed Negotiation test will yield an additional 200¥. Don Casquilho will also mention the possibility of unique and rare equipment instead of cash. (This can be a single piece of gear with an availability no higher than 16, the street value should be no more than they would be paid.)
An Ounce of Prevention: The initial payment offer is 1000¥ * (TR+1) per person currently present for run. This can be negotiated: each hit on an opposed test gets another 100¥ per person, up to 500¥ per PC. He‘s not rich! This assumes that the PCs are able to obtain ten 100mL vials (1 case) of Cryosec each. Further, he’ll pay 100¥ per additional vial of the drug that they are able to obtain (The group will have to decide how to divide up this additional payment.)
Chasing the Dragon: "I’ll pay each of you (3,000¥ + [2,000¥ * TR]), with ten percent up front. Is this agreeable?" Each net success will increase each character’s fee by 5%. This does not increase the size of the initial retainer.
Tunnel Vision: The runners are offered payment of 3000¥ + (TR*1000¥). Goggles with night vision and thermographic vision will be provided, along with climbing equipment. Standard negotiation can increase the payment by TR*250¥ per net hit, up to a maximum of 6 net hits. The Johnson offers an advance payment of 10 percent of the total payment.
Twist and Insult: The Vory is willing to pay 1,000 ¥ upfront and 1,500 * TR ¥ when it’s all over. His preference would be to give the runners gear, specifically weapons, armor or street drugs in which case he will offer an additional 30% (1,950 * TR ¥ in gear). Every net hit on a negotiation test will increase the payoff by 100 * TR ¥.
Alternatively, they can take the other side, and get 5,000 ¥ altogether.
Rising Sin: Tabby offers 2000¥+(TRx500¥), per runner, for this job, half up front. Standard negotiations apply. Each net success gets the runners 10% more, up to a max of 50%.
Winter Wonderland: Payment will be 3000¥ (+500¥ * TR) + (100¥ per Opposed Negotiation hits) each. 1,000¥ will be given to them up front on acceptance of the job.
Take-Out Service: Pay is 1,500¥ each up front and (2,500xTR)¥ each at the end. Irina will remind the runners that Mikano will be paying them a stipend as well for their services. Opposed negotiations will yield an extra 250¥ per runner per hit.
Wetwork, Pure and Simple: Compensation for the run will be paid half now, half upon completion. The job pays (3,500¥ + 500¥ * TR) per runner. Payment can be increased by (100¥ * TR) per net hit on negotiation rolls.
Critical Care: He offers 3000¥ + (500¥ x TR), per runner, for this job, half up front. Standard negotiations apply. Each net success gets the runners 10% more, up to a max of 50%.
Primal Forces: The package is a small, unmarked cardboard box. Inside, there are 3 items: a commlink, a certified credstick containing (1000¥ * Number of PCs) and an old manual key. "The pay for this job is 2500¥ + (TR * 500¥) each. Consider the contents of the package an added gift. Are you in? Y or N."
Patient Zero: He offers the team (2000¥ x TR) each for taking care of this quickly while the Yakuza recover their loss. The team can negotiate to get a percentage of the payment up-front, at a rate of 10% per net hit, to a maximum of 50%.
A Very Bad Day: Aaron will offer 2000¥ + (1000¥ * TR) each to find the spirit of Yuichotol. Successful negotiations hits will each add 500¥, up to a maximum 2500¥ increase.
By Any Means Necessary: The team is offered 3,000 ¥ (+500¥ per net hit on negotiations to a maximum of 5,000¥) per person to cause distinct mayhem for the Golden Triangle, by any means necessary. There is a bonus of (1,500¥xTR) each, if the brothel is left in a condition for the Kirillov Vory to take control. Payment of 1,500¥ per runner can be obtained in advance for runners with an overall positive faction rating with the Kirillov Vory.
Career Path: First off, the runners get paid 500 just for showing up. Johnson's initial payment offer is 1200¥ * (TR+1) per person currently present for run. This can be negotiated: each hit on an opposed test gets another 150¥ per person, up to 600¥ per PC. Alternatively, if the PCs bring their target to the Vory, each PC should receive an equal share of the 1500¥ * (TR^2 + 2TR) sum.
Happenstance: The job pays a base of (500¥ + 500¥ * TR) per runner. Payment can be increased by (100¥ * TR) per net hit (up to 5) on negotiation rolls. Finally, he offers a bonus of (100¥ x TR) for the team to divide for each additional piece of useful information.
Backlash: If the team makes peace with the Koshari, they can earn 1,000¥ * TR per runner for finding the identity of the real killers and freeing the bodyguard Matt Greyfox. If they sell the data from the earlier run to Tabby, they can earn 1,000¥ * TR and 1,500¥ each in gear.
Prodigal Son: Mr. Johnson is willing to pay each character 3000¥ + (2000¥ * TR) for one week of their time. That’s in addition to the 1000¥ credstick they have. This figure can be increased by 250¥ per net hit on an opposed Charisma + Negotiation test, up to an additional 1,250¥. For each of the shipments the runners bring back they earn an additional 500¥ * TR.
Hubris and Humility: Payment is 80,000 (+ TR x 1,000)¥ for the entire team; they can distribute it amongst themselves as they see fit. An upfront fee of 10% will be paid if the runners accept the job. Net hits on a negotation test can increase the retaining fee by 5% per hit (up to 4 net hits or a total of 30% in advance).
Done Deal: The team’s payment is highly variable based upon who they’ve chosen to deal with.
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Originally Posted by Seerow
If base pay is 2 grand a head, you're incredibly lucky if you're walking out with more than 2200 a head.
Only in a very few instances of the aforementioned list was that actually the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seerow
Unless the PC is running a pornomancer and the johnson is incompetent and rolling like 5 dice, but that doesn't happen.
The pornomancer's hardly necessary; an Elf with Tailored Pheremones and spending an Edge will probably get enough successes to reach the maximum for a good number of these.
Assuming that the group managed to mystically stay at TR 1 for the entirety of the campaign, the five-man team of shadowrunners would net over 400,000¥. Now, let's say they consistently got 5 net hits during negotiations; they would have almost a hundred thousand more nuyen.
Now let's say they've been TR 6 the whole time; the group makes around 800,000¥ at that point, and the negotiations add over 150,000¥.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seerow
Short of going out and stealing big ticket items like cars, your loot is going to be valued in the hundred of nuyen, not tens of thousands, unless you're hauling away corpses to steal 'ware from and sell to ghouls, which I don't think I've ever been in a group who didn't have some sort of moral issue against that.
Also not true; commlinks can be surprisingly valuable.
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Abyssal avatar by Gnomish Wanderer!
Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)
Pornomancer was the witty name given to a build that worked off the "sex sells" theory for wining at social situations.
Pornomancer:
Surged dryad adept with
Charisma 15 (Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + increase charisma spell with 5 successes)
Or Charisma 13(Metegenic Improvement (Charisma) + Genetic Optimization (Charisma) + a speedball of Ex,Red Mescaline and Novacoke)
Social skill of choice (spec) 6
Global Fame
Tailored Pheromones 3
Enhanced Phermone Receptors 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Improved Social Ability of choice 3
Kinesics 3
Rating 6 emotitoy
Symbiosis
Mentor spirit(seductress for con or moon maiden for negotiation)
Pornomancer was the witty name given to a build that worked off the "sex sells" theory for wining at social situations.
The pornomancer is the name for a build designed to show how ridiculous you can break the SR4 system. Using a starting 400BP character you can get a character so good at a social skill(seduction in this case), that you can get a truly silly number of dice(50+ for true pornomancer builds), to the point where your character could logically get anyone to do anything through seduction.
It's kind of like Pun-Pun for D&D, it's not a build you are supposed to play, it's a build showing how powerful and unbalanced the system is.
Anyways, I'm not going to refute TheCountAlucard's arguments point by point, because fishing lines to quote is annoying. But here is the deal.
First, I don't care about "base" pay and negotiations, I only care about what the GM is giving the runners. If your "base" pay for a run is 2k, then there is a chance that is what they will get, and just because they can knock that up higher, doesn't mean it will only happens. What numbers they can get are irrelevant, what numbers they do get are. When I suggest 2-2.5k nuyen per karma per run, that's average. I usually average 6-8 karma per run, and around 10k nuyen per run, but I occasionally give them a lot more.
While loot can be a part of a reward, you shouldn't rely on it. In most cases, loot during a job is horribly unprofessional, and most Johnsons will be unpleased if you risked the mission to pick up some random object. Aside from that it's bad business. Corps usually don't chase after runners after the run because of the following a)They know it's not personal b)The objective will have already been delivered to Johnson, so there is nothing to gain through the runners capture. If the runners keep stealing extra stuff, however, the corp will assume(rightfully so) that the runners won't be able to fence everything immediately, so they might think it's worth hunting the runners down to get their goods back.
At 5k a run you are killing your gear based characters. Lets say you have a basic Street Samurai. He started with Wired Reflexes 2, and very little essence. He wants to upgrade to Alpha Wired Reflexes 1 to gain some extra essence to improve his character. That costs 64k nuyen. At 5k a run, assuming 2k a run expensive(with gear, SINS, and lifestyles that's not unusual), it will take him 22 runs to get that upgrade. 22 runs. Most campaigns I've played in haven't even lasted that long, and Alpha Wired 2 is not that big of an upgrade. Jump up to 10k a run(once again 2k expenses), and you're looking at 8 runs. Much better, but in that same time the magician has initiated and brought their magic up to 6 from 5 when you gained a few points of essence. Now up to 15k average per run(my suggestion for 6 karma a run), you get the upgrade in 5 runs, which is about right for the power level that level of ware gets you.
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Assuming that the group managed to mystically stay at TR 1 for the entirety of the campaign, the five-man team of shadowrunners would net over 400,000¥. Now, let's say they consistently got 5 net hits during negotiations; they would have almost a hundred thousand more nuyen.
Now let's say they've been TR 6 the whole time; the group makes around 800,000¥ at that point, and the negotiations add over 150,000¥.
25 runs is nine months to a year of work. 400k/5=80k, 80k/25=3200. So your example is 3200 per run on the low end, +20% if they have someone who can always talk the Johnson up to his full budget. And don't steal gear to re-sell, it screams "Trace me!". Your highest take is barely double that for professionals with a solid rep.
I haven't played SR4 but you'll need to check the books to figure out how much a starting character with the right skills can make just by boosting cars over the same time period. Not four year old trashed compacts either, the nice new ones. It's safer than running (less shooting to start with), cheaper, and two cars a week is being lazy.
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2I haven't played SR4 but you'll need to check the books to figure out how much a starting character with the right skills can make just by boosting cars over the same time period. Not four year old trashed compacts either, the nice new ones. It's safer than running (less shooting to start with), cheaper, and two cars a week is being lazy.
Pretty much. Shadowrunning is just about the most dangerous job around. If you're not going to be paid well enough to buy that high tech 'ware, you're better off stealing cars or being a mob enforcer, and robbing houses.
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"It wasn't me who was wrong, it was the world!"
I haven't played SR4 but you'll need to check the books to figure out how much a starting character with the right skills can make just by boosting cars over the same time period. Not four year old trashed compacts either, the nice new ones. It's safer than running (less shooting to start with), cheaper, and two cars a week is being lazy.
...and there it is...
In order to try and avoid the stealing cars thread derailment the reason why there is no good advice in the book on how much a mission is worth it's because there is no simple answer.
If you start at say 2k per runner in the group for the easy runs and work up to where ever feels right.
I also like to have my Johnsons pay bonus's after a mission for various stuff. Like runs that got done with out anyone being injured or killed, or with out any destruction of property. Runs that got done with out the target ever being alerted to the runners presence, stuff like that.
I do it mainly because it encourages my players to think their options through rather then just strapping on extra ammo.
I guess another option could be letting your pcs convert Karma into money, and play it out as a windfall. For example one Karma nets you 2.5k and for the rp value you can say things like, your chr had a big win gambling or sombody paid off a really old debt to him or he found some decent paydata while he was snooping around in his free time etc.
...and there it is...
If you start at say 2k per runner in the group for the easy runs and work up to where ever feels right.
While I won't say everyone has to follow my lead, 2k per runner is never okay. That's less than 500 nuyen per karma, and unless you are awakened you might as well just not play. You could easilly make that much in a night of boosting cars, and there would be a lot less heat and gunfire.
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"It wasn't me who was wrong, it was the world!"
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Lets not have a spitting match over a guesstimated sum. I came up with this based on several factors that will most definitely be present in my game. Of course different parties will be compensated in different ways. Mages/adepts/technomancers need karma for example. There is also the possibility of non-cash payment such as contacts, a new bit of tech, maybe a favor or spell thrown in. Skill training as well. Every game, even when set in a fairly defined world as Shadowrun or Anima, is still in and of itself a brand new world and each DM can and must treat every aspect of their game as such. Crafting rewards around a party is just a small part of that.
In order to let you guys do the math, I am compiling a list below so that you can see how I got 5,000 nuyen as a low sum.
Ammo. Everyone needs it. Specialty ammo will of course cost much more. I expect the troll will funnel most of his money in here since he has a White Knight.
New Equipment. Sliverguns will do nothing to Red Samurai. The Hacker's starting programs will eventually become outdated. A new drone/suit of armor/weapon/ etc. becomes available that can balance the terms of the next engagement against a powerful enemy.
Bribes and Favors. No one works for free.
Medical Treatment. My guys are going to get messed up. This can put them out of commision for quite a while if they do not get proper medical care. And, as stated above, no one works for free.
Repairs. Guns jam. Vehicles wreck. A street punk with a monowhip slices up your cyber arm. Heck, you might even have to ditch something in order to make a clean getaway.
Lifestyle. Gotta pay the bills.
On top of all this, I imagine runners only run once or twice a month in order to keep off people's radar. On top of even this is non-running related expenses incurred by gangs seeking revenge, theft while the gang is out, and simple bad luck. Also consider the corps. 25,000 is a drop in the bucket to them, and if it turns out high, it might keep other corps from buying out the party with a larger sum.
Again, I do not seek to argue. I simply want you guys to see my reasoning so that we can put this to rest and start solving real issues.
Ok i was re reading first aid yesterday and i feel like i'm missing something because of the example given (SR4 original book).
I haven't got the book handy at the moment but it goes something like this.
Steve has 4 box's of Phys damage and Bob is trying to perform first aid on the wound.
The first aid attempt takes (1 combat turn x Box's attempting to heal) = so it takes 4 CT's to perform the first aid i get that bit.
But then it says something along the lines Bob rolls his first aid pool and scores 3 hits. Since he beat the TN with 1 additional hit he heals Steve for 2 box's of Phys damage.
Now what confuses me is what determines the TN for a first aid check? I couldn't find it in the section (mind you it was about 11pm at this stage.)
If any one could help me out it would be much appreciated.
Ok i was re reading first aid yesterday and i feel like i'm missing something because of the example given (SR4 original book).
I haven't got the book handy at the moment but it goes something like this.
Steve has 4 box's of Phys damage and Bob is trying to perform first aid on the wound.
The first aid attempt takes (1 combat turn x Box's attempting to heal) = so it takes 4 CT's to perform the first aid i get that bit.
But then it says something along the lines Bob rolls his first aid pool and scores 3 hits. Since he beat the TN with 1 additional hit he heals Steve for 2 box's of Phys damage.
Now what confuses me is what determines the TN for a first aid check? I couldn't find it in the section (mind you it was about 11pm at this stage.)
If any one could help me out it would be much appreciated.
The threashold is 2 always.
Last edited by Dimestoretiamat : 06-20-2012 at 12:34 AM.
Reason: I tried to type when I am tired
Yeah thanks Dime, i just got round to re-reading it in the cold light of day and noticed that.
Ow well there are no stupid questions
Also remember that first aid roles almost always have penalties. Anything other than clean sterile conditions apply a penalty, and since the vast majority/all of your team will be augmented or awakened, there are penalties there.(Not sure how you'd round the penalty, though in general SR seems to round to the advantage of the person making the roll with the exception of augmented attribute/skill caps).
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"It wasn't me who was wrong, it was the world!"
As i pointed out some where on the forums i have started a running an SR4 game recently and two of my players (one a Technomancer with drones and the other a rigger/wheel man type) are a bit drone obsessed at the moment.
So my questions to the playground is-
What are your favorite drones/combination of drones and why?
So far with only one session in this game under the belt the guys have got some good use out of their Aztechnology Armadillo (Small Aerial Drone) for remote recon and tacnet info feeding but i'm really interested to hear what others have done with drones? (mainly so i can use it against my players )
What are your favorite drones/combination of drones and why?
Steel L*nx, loaded up with an Ingram White Knight. Simple. Elegant. Deadly.
Renraku Stormcloud, with an Improved Sensor Package, and Chameleon Coating. Boost it with a high Signal, and it can make an EXCELLENT recon drone.
Bust-A-Move, with Chameleon Coating. It's fun to have tiny ninjas. Further upgrading with Gecko Tips allows for even handier capabilities, and if you need to use it for combat, just have it carry a grenade.
Cyberspace Designs Dragonfly, just an excellent anti-drone drone. Can't go wrong with Chameleon Coating, either.
Ares Sentinel "R" Series, with your weapon of choice mounted on it.
GMC Sandal, with Chameleon Coating. By conveniently altering its coloring, you can have it disguise itself as one of the facility drones for the place you're infiltrating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaun
I'm really interested to hear what others have done with drones? (mainly so i can use it against my players )
I'll post some entertaining stories tomorrow.
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Re: Shadowrun 4th ed. Questions
Further upgrading with Gecko Tips allows for even handier capabilities, and if you need to use it for combat, just have it carry a grenade. 
