Shadowrun 4th ed. Questions

[Dimestoretiamat]

Originally Posted by Kaun

Two questions?

Q1: Does anybody else have issues with a group that over complicates everything?

It seems that if my group wanted to cross the street it would firstly require a full matrix data search for any information pertaining to the street both post its construction and during the initial planing and development stage.
They would need to gain access to all street sign's, cameras and traffic droids within a 1k radius of the intended cross zone.
They would need at least 36hrs surveillance hours on the street prior to crossing.
They would need to perform all the same checks on at least 5 other alternative streets.
They would need to debate the necessity of crossing the street as apposed to say tunneling under it for at least 2hrs.
They would need to perform complete background checks on anybody that had been recorded on local cameras with in the last 3 weeks.
and so on and so on.

I am cool with this kind of thing when they are braking into a super secure facility but they seem to want to do it prior to stopping in at a stuffershack for a soyCaff in the morning.

Q2: Certified credsticks where and when they can be used?

Unwired eludes to the fact that they are basically a thing of the past and some banks don't even except them. I have been saying that they still are in common use in the SINless sprawls but basically nonexistant in the world of SINers.

What is the generally concusses? This all sprang up when a runner tried to buy lunch at an upper crust restaurant with one.

A1: Well if it gets to be a problem, insert some action into it. Have a spider get wise to their actions and attack. Have them see something they aren't supposed to and get on the wrong side of the Yakuza/Lone Star/some dragon. Give them a sort of notoriety score so that if they keep doing the same thing over and over they get noticed by some upstart runner cell and they try to off them. Basically, as with any game, if a party uses the same stupid tactic over and over (or the same smart tactic inapproprietly), then you have to either put them in a situation where they cannot perform such a tactic or punish them for it with the intention to condition them to think more outside the box. I prefer the latter if they are spending hours of real time and days in game time performing what should be a simple action.

A2: It all comes down to this: money. I really don't think any business will turn credsticks away. Granted, when they are used in upper class locations the stick will raise red flags. The party will have to tread lightly in order to avoid getting the cops called on them. Also give bonuses to appropriate NPCs to remember the party member in question and instantly make the NPCs suspicious of their actions.

Actually I am surprised the second thing even came up. This party seems to over think things.

[Mark Hall]

Originally Posted by Kaun

Q1: Does anybody else have issues with a group that over complicates everything?

Not outside of runs, no.

Q2: Certified credsticks where and when they can be used?

Personally, I view them as something between a Money Order and PayPal. One of the great things about PayPal is that you don't share your contact data with the person you're transacting with... you just share it with your trusted intermediary (PayPal), who takes care of the security stuff for you. I don't have to give money to Apple... I give money to PayPal, who gives money to Apple.

Likewise, they share some characteristics with money orders, which are pretty damn anonymous in this day and age. I walk into Wal-mart, plunk down $101, and I can walk out with a $100 money order. Anyone I give that money order to can deposit it at their bank, or go to a check-cashing place and get their $95.

In SR, I imagine a lot of it works in currency exchanges. Sure, you got paid 100 nuyen, but if I use that 100 nuyen to buy 98 nuyen worth of Ares scrip, and that to buy 96 nuyen worth of Renraku scrip, and then buy 95 nuyen with that, I've laundered the money a bit, taken my cut, and given you most of your money.

Originally Posted by Codemus

Q. Toxic mages. I've wanted to play one since I've first laid eyes upon em, but they kinda don't mesh well with standard runners (the ones who know anything about them, that is). Is there a way around that, to make it more of a team player? Maybe go with the Sterilist or Havoc agenda and twist around its goals?

Pretty much the point of toxic mages is that they don't play well with others, except toxics who share their philosophy.

[TheOOB]

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

The wizard is invested in astral combat and banishing. He also has good spellcasting and a Magic 6. He doesn't have stunbolt but he does have lightning bolt.

If he doesn't have stunbolt he isn't a good spirit killer. Astral combat is a sub-par skill for magicians(it's mostly for adepts/critters), and banishing is pretty terrible at actually defeating spirits(and has way too much drain).

Banish can be useful in summoning spirits outside of your tradition, but that's kind of an outside case.

[DigoDragon]

In my game, certified cred sticks were accepted everywhere, but I'd tack on a small fee (Usually 2-5%) when dealing with banks and businesses. Using corp script with the same corp was free. Despite the fee, my players generally prefered certified cred over script. I guess they saw it in the way Mark Hall mentioned above. It's like buying a layer of anonominity.

[Dimestoretiamat]

I see. What about Banish on watcher spirits? A full on spirit may cause a lot of drain but I can see Banish being a good way to get rid of little ones without the show of magic.

Also wouldn't astral combat be useful for dual existant creatures like gouls? He would be able to fight them in astral form, which means more IP, and not have to suffer drain.

[Reluctance]

Astrally projecting to beat on a dual-natured creature means your physical body is lying there comatose. That's not a situation you want to be in during any serious fight.

More importantly, while I'm sure you could find edge cases where speccing yourself for, say, Astral Combat or Banishing would be beneficial, doing so comes at the cost of your ability to be effective in normal situations. Being the banishmaster may be more effective at dealing with harmless weenie spirits. I'd much rather be merely competent at that, while also being competent at taking down the enemies where magical support is necessary.

[TheOOB]

Originally Posted by Dimestoretiamat

I see. What about Banish on watcher spirits? A full on spirit may cause a lot of drain but I can see Banish being a good way to get rid of little ones without the show of magic.

Also wouldn't astral combat be useful for dual existant creatures like gouls? He would be able to fight them in astral form, which means more IP, and not have to suffer drain.

Are there even rules for banishing a watcher spirit? Watchers don't have a force or services. Honestly though, double casting a force 2 stunbolt will likely disrupt a watcher spirit and cause no drain

And banishment is still terrible at taking out low force spirits. First it has a random drain, a force 1 bound spirit can cause 4 drain, and higher force spirits can cause way more drain. Second, you have no idea how many services they have(if they are low force it's likely a lot), so you don't know how many banishing attempts, and thus drain, you're likely to need. On the other hand, stunbolt has a cheap, predictable drain(only 2 at force 6), and is very capable of taking out low force spirits in one hit, and even high force spirits in only 2 or 3, as spirits have no particular resistance to it.

As for astral combat, yes it's useful for dual natured beings and adepts and what not, but we're talking about magicians here. With a high enough astral combat and a powerful weapon foci, a magician might(keyword might) be more effective in astral space using the skill than just stun/manabolt, but thats an awful lot of karma to spend when you could just buy a direct damage spell that will still be useful in meat space.

These topics are not new, it's been brought up long before SR4A did nothing to not make banishment suck. About the only good part of banishing is that when you banish a spirit you can immediately summon the same spirit, but that's kind of an outside case, and not worth the karma for most characters(just like ritual casting usually isn't worth the karma for most characters as they never use it).

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

Pretty much the point of toxic mages is that they don't play well with others, except toxics who share their philosophy.

Yeah, I was afraid of that. So toxics only play with other toxics, and if they are doing that there isn't much to entice them into shadowrunning... it would just be hardcore terrorism. Could probably be pretty fun if everybody was on board with it, but it just doesn’t jive well with a normal group. Like insect mages (another thing I find interesting). Oh well.

[Seerow]

Originally Posted by Codemus

Yeah, I was afraid of that. So toxics only play with other toxics, and if they are doing that there isn't much to entice them into shadowrunning... it would just be hardcore terrorism. Could probably be pretty fun if everybody was on board with it, but it just doesn’t jive well with a normal group. Like insect mages (another thing I find interesting). Oh well.

To be honest I haven't met a DM yet who didn't immediately ban those options after hearing a player was considering them though. That and Blood Magic.

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by Seerow

To be honest I haven't met a DM yet who didn't immediately ban those options after hearing a player was considering them though. That and Blood Magic.

Now blood magic would be the easiest to conceal from the rest of the group, and could actually be a viable option. The rest of the group may freak out to find you sacrificing people, but until then you are golden. Though that really depends on how morally bankrupt the rest of the group is. If they just shrug and turn the bodies over to organleggers for profit then they get a gold star sticker in my book.

[Mark Hall]

Originally Posted by Seerow

To be honest I haven't met a DM yet who didn't immediately ban those options after hearing a player was considering them though. That and Blood Magic.

Wish our GM had banned AIs... though it may just be the AI's player...

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

Wish our GM had banned AIs... though it may just be the AI's player...

You mean the player wishes the GM banned AIs too? I didn't know they were playable, I don't have Unwired.

[Mark Hall]

Originally Posted by Codemus

You mean the player wishes the GM banned AIs too? I didn't know they were playable, I don't have Unwired.

No, I wish he'd banned the player. But AIs are in Runner's Companion.

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

No, I wish he'd banned the player. But AIs are in Runner's Companion.

Oh, well I guess its obvious I don't have that either.

[Seerow]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

Wish our GM had banned AIs... though it may just be the AI's player...

Can't be any worse than the free spirits could they?

Originally Posted by Codemus

Oh, well I guess its obvious I don't have that either.

To be fair, if I was looking to play an AI, Unwired would have been the first book I thought to check, and I have both of them.

[Codemus]

Exactly. Anyway, I've got another question. Does any of the books go into more detail about the sport Urban Brawl? I had this idea for a character who was a former player turned runner, but I've got no real idea what the sport is about other than what is stated in the core book.

[Mark Hall]

Originally Posted by Codemus

Exactly. Anyway, I've got another question. Does any of the books go into more detail about the sport Urban Brawl? I had this idea for a character who was a former player turned runner, but I've got no real idea what the sport is about other than what is stated in the core book.

Shadowbeat, one of the 1st/2nd edition cusp books. It is an unheralded GENIUS of a work, almost entirely about NERPS... there's stuff on the 50s music scene, how simsense works, playing a reporter (with very dated mechanics), and the sports world. It is also pretty available on eBay.

Briefly, Urban Brawl is sort of like playing full-auto rugby. You've got a number of players on each team... some heavies, some scouts, a medic, some (average players whose title I forget), and an outrider, who has a bike. Your job is to go through an urban wasteland with the ball, and avoid getting killed by the other team. You can't shoot the other team's medic (unless he's on the outrider's bike), and you can't put the ball (or anyone carrying it) on the bike, and I believe drones and external intel is forbidden, but other than that, it's a pretty open game.

Like most sports in SR, magic is an iffy proposition in Urban Brawl, and there's no official place for a magician... they don't even always have magical healing available, and if you get it, you're out for the entire game.

At least, that is what I recall off the top of my head. If you really need detail, I can look things up, but it will be a "when I get to it" sort of thing.

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

*snip*

Nice. Thats pretty cool, I'm definately going to try and find that book. I can definately work with what you provided. The character would probably be one of those regular players, and he is a former player due to a horrible team killing accident on the field and the corp that backed his team (I assume this to be true) canned him in the face of public outcry.

Though now that I think about it, I'd almost have to take the SINner negative quality. Hmm...

[Timeras]

This should answer most questions about Urban Brawl.

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by Timeras

This should answer most questions about Urban Brawl.

Awsome! Thank you for the link. This is exactly what I needed, and now I don't have to spend my much needed money.

[Mark Hall]

Originally Posted by Timeras

This should answer most questions about Urban Brawl.

It's worth noting that those numbers look like the 1e/2e numbers, which are usually half what they are in 4e.

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by Mark Hall

It's worth noting that those numbers look like the 1e/2e numbers, which are usually half what they are in 4e.

That’s fine though, as I’m not gonna need any numbers. I just needed the general info (number of players on a team, team positions, and so on), which it delivers admirably. Unless you mean that all of those things are off, in which case thanks for the heads up.

How much BP is it considered wise to invest in nuyen for starting gear? I can hazard a guess that it is not good to use up the full 50, not taking negative qualities into consideration, since at least part of that can go into stats and skills.

[The Random NPC]

I always start off with the full 50 and, if I need to, take away from it.

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by The Random NPC

I always start off with the full 50 and, if I need to, take away from it.

That makes sense. I guess that question was a little unnecessary, thinking back. So lets change it a bit. What should be a characters first purchase? The most vital gear necessary for a runner to do what he does.

[The Random NPC]

IP generators, such as Move-by-Wires. Other than that, like everything else, the tiniest item can make or break a run, so stock up on everything.

[Reluctance]

Gear is important for mundanes, so more is usually better. What specific gear depends on the archetype, although as mentioned more IPs are usually a good idea.

What's the archetype? While both are gear dependent, there's little overlap between what a rigger wants and what a sammy wants.

[DigoDragon]

Originally Posted by Codemus

What should be a characters first purchase? The most vital gear necessary for a runner to do what he does.

I'm going to join in on the "It depends on the character archetype" answer, but there are a few universally useful tools for any Runner. Here are the ones I've noticed when I ran a Shadowrun 4e campaign--

1. Fake SINs (It's always handy to have a few disposables)

2. A sidearm (Bullets can't be counterspelled )

3. Extra transportation (Not the rigger's souped-up vehicle. I mean to have a back up "mundane" car for scoping out hits a few days in advance)

[Codemus]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Gear is important for mundanes, so more is usually better. What specific gear depends on the archetype, although as mentioned more IPs are usually a good idea.

What's the archetype? While both are gear dependent, there's little overlap between what a rigger wants and what a sammy wants.

Sammy for sure. Though I guess if the character were a scout before in Urban Brawl he would make a good infiltrator. But sammy seems simpler, so I'd go with that.

Originally Posted by DigoDragon

I'm going to join in on the "It depends on the character archetype" answer, but there are a few universally useful tools for any Runner. Here are the ones I've noticed when I ran a Shadowrun 4e campaign--

1. Fake SINs (It's always handy to have a few disposables)

2. A sidearm (Bullets can't be counterspelled )

3. Extra transportation (Not the rigger's souped-up vehicle. I mean to have a back up "mundane" car for scoping out hits a few days in advance)

Ah, nice. So what would you say a Street Samurai needs?

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by DigoDragon

corp script

scrip.

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by Codemus

Ah, nice. So what would you say a Street Samurai needs?

Cybereyes with vision mods (most notably, but by no means limited to, a smartgun system), and at least three total IPs. (Four is ideal, but incredibly costly.) Then a weapon with whatever gewgaws like smartlinks or RC, ammo, some armor, and you're good to go. (Ignoring items that every character should have, like fake IDs and a comlink. Those are pretty easy to figure out on your own, though.)

In keeping with the Urban Brawl theme, you can't go wrong with dermal armor, muscle replacement, or a cyberlimb to stuff things into. Implanted weaponry fits the theme, but does make getting into places legit noticeably harder.