Quick question: What did the Charisma-induced reaction adjustment ever actually do? Does it affect anything other than store prices?
Lots and lots of conversations, yes. For starters, whether Fuller in Candlekeep gives you a few coins and a tongue-lashing, or a +1 dagger and "Gorion didn't raise you half bad" for bringing him a quiver of crossbow bolts.
The sorcerer's spells are technically dependent on no stat, though the game says "Intelligence."
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Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
I always thought that was based on your reputation (or alignment, since that's the only thing affecting rep at that point).
Also hope that sorc casting gets tied to CHA as intended. They're supposed to have more slots to make up for the extremely limited spell selection, after all.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recaiden
This is Demon King Mangosta talking. Of course he's harsh.
I always thought that was based on your reputation (or alignment, since that's the only thing affecting rep at that point).
Also hope that sorc casting gets tied to CHA as intended. They're supposed to have more slots to make up for the extremely limited spell selection, after all.
I always thought that was based on your reputation (or alignment, since that's the only thing affecting rep at that point).
Cart before horse. Your reputation gives you a bonus or penalty to reaction checks. If your Charisma is just on the edge between two results, then the reaction you get will be different depending on whether your reputation is 8 or 12. But if your Charisma is 3, everyone who is making a reaction check will hate you whatever your reputation is.
(Which is not to say there aren't separate pure-reputation checks in the game: Jaheira's response to Elminster asking whether she was right to stand with you, for example.)
Quote:
They're supposed to have more slots to make up for the extremely limited spell selection, after all.
Not terribly relevant, since wizards don't get bonus spell slots for Intelligence in BG2 either, and in 3ed a wizard gets exactly as many bonus spell slots for Intelligence as a sorcerer does for Charisma. Sorcerers' greater number of slots stands out more, not less, in semi-2ed rules (which is more impressive: Having 6 spell slots compared to a wizard's 4, or having 8 spell slots compared to a wizard's 6?).
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Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
Cart before horse. Your reputation gives you a bonus or penalty to reaction checks. If your Charisma is just on the edge between two results, then the reaction you get will be different depending on whether your reputation is 8 or 12. But if your Charisma is 3, everyone who is making a reaction check will hate you whatever your reputation is.
(Which is not to say there aren't separate pure-reputation checks in the game: Jaheira's response to Elminster asking whether she was right to stand with you, for example.)
Ah. All I remembered was that my evil thief had to pick Fuller's pocket to get that dagger. Of course, I think that character also got caught stealing in the inn and informed the guard that he was an "uppity bald virgin," which may also have had something to do with it...
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Delightfully abrasive in more ways than one
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recaiden
This is Demon King Mangosta talking. Of course he's harsh.
Cart before horse. Your reputation gives you a bonus or penalty to reaction checks. If your Charisma is just on the edge between two results, then the reaction you get will be different depending on whether your reputation is 8 or 12. But if your Charisma is 3, everyone who is making a reaction check will hate you whatever your reputation is.
Granted in BG 2, you can dump Cha and get that ring of Persuastion (Cha becomes 18).
I always thought that was based on your reputation (or alignment, since that's the only thing affecting rep at that point).
Also hope that sorc casting gets tied to CHA as intended. They're supposed to have more slots to make up for the extremely limited spell selection, after all.
Granted in BG 2, you can dump Cha and get that ring of Persuastion (Cha becomes 18).
That always seemed to me to be one of the worst places to put that ring. You can get it before cha is ever used, so there is zero reason (from an optimization standpoint) to do anything besides dump cha.
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At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
-Camus, An Absurd Reasoning
Unless you, you know, don't want to commit one of your personal fingers to that ring at all times.
Or want to import your character from BG1 (without cheating). Or--gasp!--don't want to metagame. Or want a Charisma higher than 18.
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Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
That always seemed to me to be one of the worst places to put that ring. You can get it before cha is ever used, so there is zero reason (from an optimization standpoint) to do anything besides dump cha.
Unless you import your character from the first game.
U
Or want to import your character from BG1 (without cheating). Or--gasp!--don't want to metagame.
What are you talking about? The whole point of BG is to spend ages rolling ridiculously high stats so you can better min-max your build which is designed around in-depth knowledge of what items are coming up. I mean honestly, next you'll be saying killing Drizz't for his stuff isn't standard policy
Lots and lots of conversations, yes. For starters, whether Fuller in Candlekeep gives you a few coins and a tongue-lashing, or a +1 dagger and "Gorion didn't raise you half bad" for bringing him a quiver of crossbow bolts.
Which pretty much never occurs unless your Charisma is 18 straight up. I kind of don't understand why it seems that 18 Charisma is the only time Charisma actually makes sense -- but on the other hand, with players rigging their characters to have 18 in everything (or at least all the important stats...), that's not a big deal, I guess.
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What are you talking about? The whole point of BG is to spend ages rolling ridiculously high stats so you can better min-max your build which is designed around in-depth knowledge of what items are coming up. I mean honestly, next you'll be saying killing Drizz't for his stuff isn't standard policy
Oh my lord did I not have time for that. There's something to be said for the modern approach of "Okay, you have 20 character points, go to it." Who has time to click the "Reroll" button for half an hour until the stats are somehow remotely adequate for your character? I mean, it wouldn't be a big deal in games that level up like Diablo, where you can actually change your stats - but the times those numbers actually go up (or down) on a permanent basis can be counted on one hand.
Oh my lord did I not have time for that. There's something to be said for the modern approach of "Okay, you have 20 character points, go to it." Who has time to click the "Reroll" button for half an hour until the stats are somehow remotely adequate for your character? I mean, it wouldn't be a big deal in games that level up like Diablo, where you can actually change your stats - but the times those numbers actually go up (or down) on a permanent basis can be counted on one hand.
Hint: The Tome of Leadership and Influence isn't that hard or lengthy to get in BG1. If you can tolerate multiple trips through the opening sequence, you can import/export characters after picking it up, easily getting to the maximum charisma.
Hint: The Tome of Leadership and Influence isn't that hard or lengthy to get in BG1. If you can tolerate multiple trips through the opening sequence, you can import/export characters after picking it up, easily getting to the maximum charisma.
If you're willing to cheat, it's much simpler and quicker to google Sword Coast Keeper.
I suspect "remotely adequate" is very much a factor of what you can get for a character. I doubt very much you could get stats in Neverwinter Nights that would be nearly as good as what you could typically get with just a few minutes of rolling in Baldur's Gate, but because you know that investing five more minutes would get you better stats, what would be very good stats in NWN is not "remotely adequate for your character."
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Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
If you're willing to cheat, it's much simpler and quicker to google Sword Coast Keeper.
I suspect "remotely adequate" is very much a factor of what you can get for a character. I doubt very much you could get stats in Neverwinter Nights that would be nearly as good as what you could typically get with just a few minutes of rolling in Baldur's Gate, but because you know that investing five more minutes would get you better stats, what would be very good stats in NWN is not "remotely adequate for your character."
Not exactly. NWN's Point-Buy system gives you enough points for 13s across the board, although diminishing returns mean that's the best you can get. That's actually a "remotely adequate" point total for BG, you often get much lower point totals than that using the dice rolls.
Of course NWN was (in theory) balanced with the point buy system in mind, with high ability scores actually being rare. Whether that is the case or not (especially when using Epic rules) is a matter of debate.
But BG is balanced on the assumption that an 18 or two isn't all that hard to get with a lot of patience and little min-maxing (or was that the other way around?). Average scores are absolutely meaningless (you don't get bonuses in most cases until 15).
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Ah, yes. "Art", an abstract term capable of turning products corrupted by laziness and arrogance into masterpieces that are not merely immutable, but inherently justified.
Unless you, you know, don't want to commit one of your personal fingers to that ring at all times.
Or want to import your character from BG1 (without cheating). Or--gasp!--don't want to metagame. Or want a Charisma higher than 18.
Well, not all times. If you're really CharOp'ing it up, you only equip the ring before you have an encounter where it's relevant. Typically just before talking to a shopkeeper.
Not exactly. NWN's Point-Buy system gives you enough points for 13s across the board, although diminishing returns mean that's the best you can get. That's actually a "remotely adequate" point total for BG, you often get much lower point totals than that using the dice rolls.
Of course NWN was (in theory) balanced with the point buy system in mind, with high ability scores actually being rare. Whether that is the case or not (especially when using Epic rules) is a matter of debate.
But BG is balanced on the assumption that an 18 or two isn't all that hard to get with a lot of patience and little min-maxing (or was that the other way around?). Average scores are absolutely meaningless (you don't get bonuses in most cases until 15).
That's less of a BG thing and more of an AD&D thing.
The BG2 NPCs are specially powerful compared to your average AD&D party.
...to dual-class. And between Baldur's Gate 1 and Baldur's Gate 2, the number of dual-classed characters is three (3): Imoen, who is the main NPC, Nalia, who has the same Intelligence and Dexterity as Imoen, and Anomen, who does not in fact meet the Wisdom requirements for his dual-class.
So no. That is not why almost all the characters in the Baldur's Gate games have very high stats.
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Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
This, in a nutshell.
Last edited by Kish : 08-08-2012 at 01:47 PM.
Reason: Missed Nalia initially
Well, the major reason to have a bard in the party is to use lore to identify magic items, which means he needs high scores in both int and wis, and cha is his primary attribute, and he's dependent on dex, and needs con to be able to survive the hits he can't avoid... Bards have mad MAD. And if you need to have 5 high scores to be useful as a bard, it's only fair to let other NPCs have high scores in all of their stats. And then there's the fact that a lot of items have minimum stat requirements. For example, Viconia can't wear plate mail without a strength-enhancing item of some kind.
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Delightfully abrasive in more ways than one
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recaiden
This is Demon King Mangosta talking. Of course he's harsh.
While it is not as easily refuted as the idea that the NPCs have super-high stats because of tons of dual-classes...I don't think it's because someone at Black Isle said, "We're going to have to give all of them stats good enough to be good bards!" either. And "One of the NPCs is unable to wear the heaviest armor her class can wear" seems to be an argument against what you're using it as an argument for.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it was a matter of, "We're going to give most of them very high stats just because we want them to have very high stats." Maybe it was meant to be a disincentive to create full multiplayer parties and ignore all the NPCs and their attendant plot. Either way, if it takes you half an hour to get stats for your PC that are "remotely adequate" by NWN standards, you're having truly terrible luck.
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Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
While it is not as easily refuted as the idea that the NPCs have super-high stats because of tons of dual-classes...I don't think it's because someone at Black Isle said, "We're going to have to give all of them stats good enough to be good bards!" either. And "One of the NPCs is unable to wear the heaviest armor her class can wear" seems to be an argument against what you're using it as an argument for.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it was a matter of, "We're going to give most of them very high stats just because we want them to have very high stats." Maybe it was meant to be a disincentive to create full multiplayer parties and ignore all the NPCs and their attendant plot. Either way, if it takes you half an hour to get stats for your PC that are "remotely adequate" by NWN standards, you're having truly terrible luck.
It's mostly in BG2, of course. If you load some of the tweak packs for the Baldur's Gate Trilogy, there's an option to give BG1 npcs their BG2 stats. Every change is for the better - most returning NPCs got a stat boost.
I always figured it came from two parts:
1) Only allies with good stats got played in BG1. Who took Tiax or Quayle seriously?
2) BG1 was a story about an orphan at war with a brother from another mother. BG2 was the story of a demigod of murder trying to confront a demigod of ham. It is epic in every respect, with dragons and dead gods and demons and drow and Jim Cummings and David Warner. It's big.
And, as with Mass Effect, the difference between 1 and 2 is that party for the first game was just the misfits you ran across, while the party for the second game are the elites - some of the most veteran and talented adventurers you run across. You're running with the big boys, now, the ones with the natural advantage - and that means better stats.
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Ah, yes. "Art", an abstract term capable of turning products corrupted by laziness and arrogance into masterpieces that are not merely immutable, but inherently justified.
...to dual-class. And between Baldur's Gate 1 and Baldur's Gate 2, the number of dual-classed characters is two (2): Imoen, who is the main NPC, and Anomen, who does not in fact meet the Wisdom requirements for his dual-class.
So no. That is not why almost all the characters in the Baldur's Gate games have very high stats.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
1) Only allies with good stats got played in BG1. Who took Tiax or Quayle seriously?
No-one. Also most people will take characters they can recruit early, given that you have to complete a good 3/4 of the main quest before you can even meet anyone in Baldur's Gate itself.
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Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition
