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Old 03-25-2013, 08:39 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
LordErebus12
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Default Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

I had an idea... What if spellcasting (divine and arcane) were completely pulled from the classes? Non-casters can suddenly cast spells to an extent?

This doesn't mean all magic becomes more powerful, in fact I intend to make it harder to cast spells, overall. It merely opens up more versatility, with its own design issues. Lets face it, though, no system will be perfect, although we should still strive for it.

Edits in DarkOrange

Skill Changes
UMD and Spellcraft merge and hold greater importance and use for casters.

The new "Spellcraft" is governed by the chosen magical type's ability. Arcane magic is governed by Intelligence. Nature magic is governed by Wisdom. Divine magic is governed by Charisma.

The ability to cast a spell requires a successful spellcraft check. Without a successful spellcraft check, the spell fails but the spell slot per day is not expended. This is often known as a "fizzled spell". The Spellcraft DC required to cast a spell is 15 + (spell level x 3).

Spell LevelSpellcraft DC
1st16
2nd21
3rd24
4th27
5th30
6th33
7th36
8th39
9th42

Casters cannot take 10 on spellcraft checks to cast spells or to use magical items, unless otherwise allowed through class features, etc.

Creatures cannot use Spellcraft untrained.

Spontaneous and Prepared Spells:
Every caster becomes Spontaneous. Classes such as clerics and wizards no longer need to prepare spells ahead of time.

Racial levels and Casters:
Characters that have racial levels and spellcaster levels do not stack the totals for base attack progression for caster level, spells known or spells per day. For example, a Minotaur with 6 racial levels and 4 levels of wizard is counted as having a +8 Base Attack Bonus (+2 from wizard, +6 from racial) but only has a caster level of 4th and uses the half-base attack bonus progression as if he only had levels in wizard.

Monsters are not changed by these rule changes. Treat caster level, spell-like abilities, etc. as exactly they are stated. Monsters like Rakshasa or Dragons that cast as a sorcerer of such level follows the standard rules, as normal.


Major Class changes: (will be expanded upon below)

Wizards: Wizards treat their spellbooks, wands, rods, or staves as focuses for all spellcasting and are like artificers in many ways. Wizards can read directly from the spellbook without fear of the spell being expended like a scroll would. They have mastered magical item creation.

Clerics: Clerics lose their medium base attack progression to maintain full casting abilities, gaining half progression. Good Clerics gain better healing abilities (or damaging abilities for evil clerics), such as ranged cure (or inflict) spells and a healing over time aura or frightful presence aura. They also gain X+3 domain spells per day, instead of X+1 domain spells per day.

Sorcerers: Sorcerers become masters of using magical items with deadly potency, capable of using their own inner power for the casting of spells through magical items. They can use their own power instead of burn charges with magical items. They also channel their own caster level into the magical items, using either their own or the item's caster level, which ever is higher.

Druids: Druids, sadly, will get a little weaker as far as casting is concerned. Their medium base attack progression limits their ability to cast higher level spells. This is a fair exchange as they have animal companions and wild shaping.

Prestige Class Changes
  • If the PrC is full-casting, it gets half BAB.
  • If it's partial-to-half-casting, it gets 3/4.
  • If it gets less than half or no casting, it gets full BAB.
  • For Gish classes (such as eldritch knight), add a special 'gish bonus' to all attacks at appropriate levels to bring effective attack bonus to full again.


Choice of Magic Types:
All characters choose either arcane, divine, or nature upon creation.
That character may only manifest that specific magic type, unless another is gained from another source.

Base Attack Progression Tables:
Base attack bonus progression would dictate spells per day, meaning a full Base attack bonus character would have less ability to cast, than a half Base attack bonus character.

Spoiler


Spells and Caster Level:
Add together levels in each type of BAB progression (full, partial, or half) for the purpose of spells-per-day progression. For each progression, count the number of spells per spell-level, and gain the better number for that level. For example, a paladin 7/fighter 3 who gains a single level of cleric would thus have 5/3/1 spells, five 0-level and three 1st-level from one level of cleric, and one 2nd level from the ten levels of paladin and fighter, which have been added together.

Caster Levels and Multiclassing:
Multiclassed characters with full base attack bonus progression have no actual caster level until 4th level. If the character has no caster level and gains one from another class, their totals stack, even though it normally wouldnt. For instance, if a 3rd level fighter gains a level in wizard, the character's caster level would be equal to his class level, not just 1.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:40 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
LordErebus12
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Default Class Changes

Cleric
Spoiler




Druid
Druids lose access to 7th - 9th level spells, because of the spell progression to be based on base attack progression. A fair trade for such a strong and versatile class.



Sorcerer
Spoiler




Wizard
Spoiler
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:41 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
LordErebus12
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Default The Arcane, the Divine, and the Natural

The Arcane
Spellcraft is Intelligence Based.
Spells Known Formula: 2 x (1 + 1/2 HD + Intelligence Modifier)
Armor and Shields cause Arcane spells to suffer arcane spell failure.

The Divine
Spellcraft is Charisma based
Spells known formula: 2 x (1 + 1/2 HD + Charisma Modifier)
Armor and Shields causes no spell failure and they can wear metal armor and metal shields.

The Natural
Spellcraft is Wisdom based
Spells known formula: 2 x (1 + 1/2 HD + Wisdom Modifier)
Metal Armor and Metal Shields cause natural spells to automatically fail.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:42 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
LordErebus12
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Default Feats

Feats, if any
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:20 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
Waker
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Seems like an interesting approach. How would you run item creation? Would they automatically produce any items they normally could or would they behave like artificers with restricted lists?
What about mechanics like counterspelling, metamagic and specialization?
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:22 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waker View Post
Seems like an interesting approach. How would you run item creation? Would they automatically produce any items they normally could or would they behave like artificers with restricted lists?
What about mechanics like counterspelling, metamagic and specialization?
it would function much as it would now, id imagine.

item creation costs would streamline, i would imagine, since we wouldnt have to deal with different costs based on class.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:31 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
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Post Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Run it similarly to Star Wars SAGA, where Use the Force is a skill anybody can take? I like that idea, in its broadest sense - ties into another thread I just made where I thought of refluffing SAGA to fit fantasy campaigns and not just Star Wars...
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
bobthe6th
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

I mean, the problem becomes for clerics that the DM has to hand out some free loot... I suggest separating the cleric and the healer. Make Divine properly separated as a subsystem, possibly use it as a way to fold in pact magic or invocations into the system. Healers get a Larger touch of vitality pool, with the added bonus of Though you could honestly just give pepped up versions of the Healers Spell like abilities(many more times per day and all that...). Add in some buff invocations, or something like a free eldrich blast thing...

Now, arcane magic is a proper sub system. I like the idea you outlined, but I posit a problem. Look at the artificer. He does something along the lines you suggest, and is a class that relies on system mastery.

How about a crafting pool for arcane casters, more for the wizard then the sorceror(who gets to treat themselves like a rune staff that they power with item charges?). They use this pool at the start of each day to make some modifications to their items. They can add charges, recreate broken items, or empower existing ones. These points are caught up in the items until used or reclaimed by the caster. After use/reclamation they are unusable until after a rest. So some slight ability to keep using the things they find, but still limited to items.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:40 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
I mean, the problem becomes for clerics that the DM has to hand out some free loot... I suggest separating the cleric and the healer. Make Divine properly separated as a subsystem, possibly use it as a way to fold in pact magic or invocations into the system. Healers get a Larger touch of vitality pool, with the added bonus of Though you could honestly just give pepped up versions of the Healers Spell like abilities(many more times per day and all that...). Add in some buff invocations, or something like a free eldrich blast thing...
hard to understand, please clarify

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
How about a crafting pool for arcane casters, more for the wizard then the sorcerer (who gets to treat themselves like a rune staff that they power with item charges?). They use this pool at the start of each day to make some modifications to their items. They can add charges, recreate broken items, or empower existing ones. These points are caught up in the items until used or reclaimed by the caster. After use/reclamation they are unusable until after a rest. So some slight ability to keep using the things they find, but still limited to items.
good idea
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Empedocles
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Post Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
no idea, not my cup of tea. i heavily redid star wars d20 to fit my ideals. not familiar with all that jazz.
If, uh, you go with the ideas you mention in your OP, then it is very much your cup of tea I wasn't saying you should refluff it...just suggesting that you could look to SAGA for how precisely having magic as an option available to everybody could affect gameplay.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
bobthe6th
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
hard to understand, please clarify
Suggesting that rather then keep arcane and devine magic in the same subsystem, you seperate them. Make the classic "devine" Healbot a suped up healer relying on a modified touch of vitality(Dragon Shaman) and some SLAs for specific things they need to be able to cure. Make an actual cleric class that is either a binder, or a modified invocation class.

This frees up the normal spells to be just arcane... which is much easier on the subsystem.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
Suggesting that rather then keep arcane and devine magic in the same subsystem, you seperate them. Make the classic "devine" Healbot a suped up healer relying on a modified touch of vitality(Dragon Shaman) and some SLAs for specific things they need to be able to cure. Make an actual cleric class that is either a binder, or a modified invocation class.

This frees up the normal spells to be just arcane... which is much easier on the subsystem.
I hate to "make it a feat"

perhaps you have to choose which type of magic you will work with upon creation. just like alignments, classes such as mystic theurge would grant access to both.

i think prestiege classes (such as mystic theurge) that add only an additional spell caster level would become worthless, as it would be based on base attack bonus.

you could simply have a feat for the ability to use both arcane and divine, requiring you to choose a deity/positive force from which to worship/draw power from.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:32 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
bobthe6th
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

I mean, there are much better systems for doing divine characters. It never really sat right with me that they were the same as people using their knowledge or inborn talent to change the world. Invocations provide a more "Gift of God" feel, and binding allows for becoming one with a domain.

Though honestly, you could just make touch of vitality a feat. Then you would be free of needing a "Healer" class, and could make the cleric an actual servant of a god without any forced class role. Like a working warlock.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:42 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
I mean, there are much better systems for doing divine characters. It never really sat right with me that they were the same as people using their knowledge or inborn talent to change the world. Invocations provide a more "Gift of God" feel, and binding allows for becoming one with a domain.

Though honestly, you could just make touch of vitality a feat. Then you would be free of needing a "Healer" class, and could make the cleric an actual servant of a god without any forced class role. Like a working warlock.
not sure what binding and invocations have to do with healers.
Edit: i meant divine casters, not healers.

Touch of Vitality (Su):
Spoiler


it could work well that way.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:08 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

The main issue with Use The Force as a skill, in my understanding, is that you wind up with over-specialization because that one skill covers EVERYTHING. Boosting that single skill all to hell through whatever means, ability boosts, cicumstance and item buffs, etc, winds up creating hyper-specialized characters.

Now, if you were to, let's say, split it up, either along power-source lines (arcana vs religion vs nature) or along spell-type lines (not as skills, but older d20 star wars used the division of powers between alter/sense/control, or you could go with skills for spell schools like evocation/conjuration/necromancy/etc) it spreads the focus around, creates specialists in particular areas so that one character-type doesn't dominate everything magical.

Way back when in my 3.5+ mods, (which I'm probably going to roll 3/4 of it into the WarCraft stuff) I was dividing up the different skills between power sources and spell schools, so that your caster level for any given spell-effect was determined by one of two or three possible skills for your class.

Spoiler


I'm going to change things up for my WarCraft stuff, but I'm probably going to take my lead from my prior work.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWarlock View Post
The main issue with Use The Force as a skill, in my understanding, is that you wind up with over-specialization because that one skill covers EVERYTHING. Boosting that single skill all to hell through whatever means, ability boosts, cicumstance and item buffs, etc, winds up creating hyper-specialized characters.
yeah i dont like that either, nor was it my plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWarlock View Post
Now, if you were to, let's say, split it up, either along power-source lines (arcana vs religion vs nature) or along spell-type lines (not as skills, but older d20 star wars used the division of powers between alter/sense/control, or you could go with skills for spell schools like evocation/conjuration/necromancy/etc) it spreads the focus around, creates specialists in particular areas so that one character-type doesn't dominate everything magical.

Way back when in my 3.5+ mods, (which I'm probably going to roll 3/4 of it into the WarCraft stuff) I was dividing up the different skills between power sources and spell schools, so that your caster level for any given spell-effect was determined by one of two or three possible skills for your class.
this was more my plan, though not entirely.
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:36 AM   Top  -  End  -  #17
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Base attack bonus tables are added.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:27 AM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

This actually looks pretty good. I think this would really shine in a magic heavy campaign.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:37 AM   Top  -  End  -  #19
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

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Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
This actually looks pretty good. I think this would really shine in a magic heavy campaign.
dont speak too quickly, lol. casting now requires a check.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:49 AM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

okay, i think i got most of the changes down. gonna start working on classes after some sleep.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:02 AM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
dont speak too quickly, lol. casting now requires a check.
Lets look at that.

15 + (spell level x 3).

So, if I'm not mistaken:
Spell LevelSpellcraft DC
1st16
2nd21
3rd24
4th27
5th30
6th33
7th36
8th39
9th42

So far it seems reasonable. Magic shouldn't come too easily, least not early on. In a magic heavy campaign, more would have access to spells and there would likely be more methods to lowering the DCs. Items and such that give bonuses to spellcraft and to the caster's stat would be more common place, i'd assume at least.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:06 AM   Top  -  End  -  #22
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

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Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
Lets look at that.

15 + (spell level x 3).

So, if I'm not mistaken:
Spell LevelSpellcraft DC
1st16
2nd21
3rd24
4th27
5th30
6th33
7th36
8th39
9th42

So far it seems reasonable. Magic shouldn't come too easily, least not early on. In a magic heavy campaign, more would have access to spells and there would likely be more methods to lowering the DCs. Items and such that give bonuses to spellcraft and to the caster's stat would be more common place, i'd assume at least.
especially since the minimum mental score for 9th is 19 (+4), meaning a basic 20th level Wizard with max ranks in spellcraft would have a +27 to the roll, before buffs and min-maxing.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:12 AM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Quote:
Choice of Magic Types:
All characters choose either arcane, divine, or nature upon creation.
That character may only manifest that specific magic type, unless another is gained from another source.
So the only difference between the different magic types is the attribute that determines the benefits? And expanding on that, does this mean we could make Divine Wizards or Arcane Druids?
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:20 AM   Top  -  End  -  #24
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

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Originally Posted by Waker View Post
So the only difference between the different magic types is the attribute that determines the benefits? And expanding on that, does this mean we could make Divine Wizards or Arcane Druids?
YES

although druids are a bit weaker casters.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:26 AM   Top  -  End  -  #25
Xuldarinar
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

Arcane Druid.. Hmm

Suddenly I'm thinking about Radagast the Brown.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:32 AM   Top  -  End  -  #26
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

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Arcane Druid.. Hmm

Suddenly I'm thinking about Radagast the Brown.
nature wizard... hedgehog familiar...
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:40 PM   Top  -  End  -  #27
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

posted Wizard and Sorcerer.

Gonna start on cleric.
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:41 PM   Top  -  End  -  #28
Ziegander
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

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especially since the minimum mental score for 9th is 19 (+4), meaning a basic 20th level Wizard with max ranks in spellcraft would have a +27 to the roll, before buffs and min-maxing.
A 20th level Wizard, assuming Intelligence determines bonus spell slots and save DCs, is going to have Int 30 or higher. With just skill ranks and his ability modifier, that means his bonus to the skill is 33. If he can Take 10 with this skill, then you've added no meaningful restriction. On the other hand, if he can't, then he succeeds on a 9 or higher, giving him a 60% chance to cast his highest level of spells, a 75% chance to cast 8th level, a 90% chance to cast 7th level, and he auto-casts everything else.

Now then, that's before any other bonuses. Magical Aptitude now means +10% chance to cast, as does Aid Another from just about anyone (all you need to hit is DC 10). So now we're up to 80% chance to cast 9th level spells. Skill Focus gives +15% chance to cast bringing it to 95%. All he needs is +1 more to get 100% and I would hardly call this optimizing.

Of course, if you allow magic items to grant bonuses to Spellcraft like they can for other skills, then you're crazy. Because you can get items with bonuses varying from +2 (+10%) all the way to +30 (+150%...).
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
LordErebus12
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

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Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
A 20th level Wizard, assuming Intelligence determines bonus spell slots and save DCs, is going to have Int 30 or higher. With just skill ranks and his ability modifier, that means his bonus to the skill is 33. If he can Take 10 with this skill, then you've added no meaningful restriction. On the other hand, if he can't, then he succeeds on a 9 or higher, giving him a 60% chance to cast his highest level of spells, a 75% chance to cast 8th level, a 90% chance to cast 7th level, and he auto-casts everything else.

Now then, that's before any other bonuses. Magical Aptitude now means +10% chance to cast, as does Aid Another from just about anyone (all you need to hit is DC 10). So now we're up to 80% chance to cast 9th level spells. Skill Focus gives +15% chance to cast bringing it to 95%. All he needs is +1 more to get 100% and I would hardly call this optimizing.

Of course, if you allow magic items to grant bonuses to Spellcraft like they can for other skills, then you're crazy. Because you can get items with bonuses varying from +2 (+10%) all the way to +30 (+150%...).
I see no problem with this. I will make the note that you cannot take 10 on spellcraft checks to cast spells or to use magical items, unless otherwise allowed through class features, etc.

I was going bare minimum required ability scores, without over specializing like you did.
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:53 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
RedWarlock
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Default Re: Casting as a skill, not class feature. (3.X)

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Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
A 20th level Wizard, assuming Intelligence determines bonus spell slots and save DCs, is going to have Int 30 or higher. With just skill ranks and his ability modifier, that means his bonus to the skill is 33. If he can Take 10 with this skill, then you've added no meaningful restriction. On the other hand, if he can't, then he succeeds on a 9 or higher, giving him a 60% chance to cast his highest level of spells, a 75% chance to cast 8th level, a 90% chance to cast 7th level, and he auto-casts everything else.

Now then, that's before any other bonuses. Magical Aptitude now means +10% chance to cast, as does Aid Another from just about anyone (all you need to hit is DC 10). So now we're up to 80% chance to cast 9th level spells. Skill Focus gives +15% chance to cast bringing it to 95%. All he needs is +1 more to get 100% and I would hardly call this optimizing.

Of course, if you allow magic items to grant bonuses to Spellcraft like they can for other skills, then you're crazy. Because you can get items with bonuses varying from +2 (+10%) all the way to +30 (+150%...).
No, I'd say you're assuming more optimization than you give credit for. That +27 was a strict minimum, based on functional limits (ability score of 10+spell level to learn/cast), so we set the base bar there, distant but doable on a 17-20 roll. Anything higher IS optimized to at least a small degree. If the player wants to optimize it, they can, and can be rewarded, but I don't think taking 10 is included in the assumptions, nor is aid another or items. Those would be optimization strategies, not base play assumptions. (taking them into account for an upper ceiling is advisable, but again, don't assume they're included in the optimization floor.)
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