4e campaign[no new interest]

oblivion6 · 06-24-2012, 02:17 PM

well i figured since i will have an abundance of free time for a while, i would start up another 4e game if anyone is interested

big 16 of sorts

Spoiler

basic campagn idea

Spoiler

tcrudisi · 06-24-2012, 04:37 PM

It's level 15 and you get the basic starting items. That typically includes level +1, level, and level -1 and gold equal to level -1. In this case, that would be a 16, 15, and 14 item and enough gold for a level 14 item (21,000). You then say that you get 10,000 gold.

My question is this: Does that mean that you get 31,000gp or just 10,000gp?

How many players are you looking for?

Do you give out the math feat taxes for free? (Some DMs do, some don't.)

Have you ever run a pbf game before? Do you intend on running it here on the GitP forums or elsewhere (like skype)?

oblivion6 · 06-24-2012, 05:09 PM

1. okay i see why i might have confused someone. you get the magic items as well as 10,000 gold that was given to you by your respective sponsers to cover other expenses

2. 5-6 players probably

3. math feat taxes? not familiar with the term

4. yes i have dmed a pbp before. it will be here on the forums

Megatron46 · 06-25-2012, 06:47 AM

I'm interested!
Last couple of pbp games died!
Thinking of either a Battlemind or Rogue!
Will get something posted up in a couple of days- how much backstory do you want/need/fancy?

oblivion6 · 06-25-2012, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron46

I'm interested!
Last couple of pbp games died!
Thinking of either a Battlemind or Rogue!
Will get something posted up in a couple of days- how much backstory do you want/need/fancy?

ya the other pbp im running is dying as well, but that couldnt really be helped since i had to move cross country in the middle of the game so we kinda lost momentum

i dont need too long a backstory just enough to tell me how your character got where he is today. of course plot hooks are always nice but not required

PChubby · 06-26-2012, 02:03 AM

Interested with a dwarf Knight or Skald.

Are themes allowed? I might work up a Werebear Druid :)

oblivion6 · 06-26-2012, 02:10 AM

yes themes are allowed. werebears are in 4th edition? cant say im familiar with them...of course i havent really looked through the builder in a while so no suprise there. is it from the heros of the feywild book?

PChubby · 06-26-2012, 03:02 AM

WotC introduced Were bear/wolf/rat themes a month or 2 ago in Dragon 410.

They work best with a druid or druid MC. The biggest thing about them is the lvl10 hybrid form lets a druid use beastform & standard powers at the same time. There's the added benefit of items not melding into your form so you boost AC a little with feats/items. Werebears can be an off tank w/o the bear form mark but it's low accuracy.

oblivion6 · 06-26-2012, 03:09 AM

ah okay. good to know

FatherVenom · 06-27-2012, 02:13 AM

This might be something I'm interested in. I've got an Human (or some other brutish race if I can free up some feat slots) Infernal Warlock PC I've been kicking around. Played something like it before but our Controller got bored and merced us at a pretty low level.

Got a few questions first.

What frequency are we looking for in terms of posting?

How far are you thinking about taking this campaign?

How are you planning on running the tactics portions?

I assume math tax feats are improved defenses & weapon expertise, but I could be wrong.

oblivion6 · 06-27-2012, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherVenom

This might be something I'm interested in. I've got an Human (or some other brutish race if I can free up some feat slots) Infernal Warlock PC I've been kicking around. Played something like it before but our Controller got bored and merced us at a pretty low level.

Got a few questions first.

What frequency are we looking for in terms of posting?
preferabbly atleast once a day. i dont expect everyone to be able to compete with the amount of times i can post per day

How far are you thinking about taking this campaign?
that would depend on the players because if people enjoy the game i wont stop the game needlessly but if people dont enjoy it then it would be unfair of me to make them continue

How are you planning on running the tactics portions?
for most combats i will use a google docs spreadsheet

I assume math tax feats are improved defenses & weapon expertise, but I could be wrong.

check the bolded parts in the above quote for the answers

Conundrum · 06-27-2012, 09:06 AM

Interested, though I'd prefer if you had a proper big 16 :P I'll see what I can whip up later tonight

Megatron46 · 06-27-2012, 09:10 AM

Work has been mental! I'm still interested but have run out of time! I'll hve something up by the end of the week! Probably a Dragonborn Battlemind.

tcrudisi · 06-27-2012, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherVenom

I assume math tax feats are improved defenses & weapon expertise, but I could be wrong.

You are correct. Also, some classes get an additional math tax feat. Battleminds, for example. They literally cannot perform their role as a defender without having a melee basic attack. So for them, Melee Training is an absolute requirement because it is required for them to do their job. (There's a difference between doing a job and doing it well. Battlemind's cannot do their job without Melee Training. A striker CAN do their job with a long sword instead of a bastard sword. One is a feat tax; the other is just improving yourself.)

Here's the gist of why improved defenses and versatile expertise are math tax feats:

Typical monsters AC = 14+level, or 15 at level 1.
Assumption: characters start with post-racial 18 and use a +2 proficiency weapon. (Note that it doesn't change the rate of +attack growth to use post-racial 20 and +3, it just skews everything down by 2 permanently.). +Attack = 4 (stat) + 2 (weapon) = +6. Need to roll a 9 to hit at level 1.

Level 17:
Monsters AC = 14+16 = 31.
Characters +attack = 8 (1/2 level) + 6 (stat is now 22) + 2 (proficiency) + 4 (enhancement bonus on magic weapon) = 20.
Need to roll an 11 to hit.

Level 30:
Monsters AC = 14+30 = 44
Characters +attack = 15 (1/2 level) + 8 (attack stat is 26) + 6 (enhancement bonus) + 2 (proficiency) = 31.
Need to roll a 13 to hit.

From level 1 to level 30, you went from needed a 9 to hit an at-level monster to needing to roll a 13. If you throw in expertise, this gives +3 to hit by level 30, making it go from a 9 to a 10. There's still one point off, but that's much better than 4. Note that something like the Demigod epic destiny will fix that by adding 2 to the primary stat.

Monsters attacks also increase by 1 every level while the non-armor defenses do the same thing on characters that attack does: so they fall behind by 4 (or a lot more in the case of the tertiary stat!) by level 30.

tigerusthegreat · 06-27-2012, 10:48 AM

What about backgrounds? I know themes are allowed.

And I may have missed it, but are you giving out a free expertise feat (the math feat tax mentioned above, it largely fixes the low hit problems caused by some games)

Looking forward to playing again after being gone for a couple months. Thinking dragonborn paladin, striking with the avenging wrath of bahamut.

oblivion6 · 06-27-2012, 05:36 PM

ah okay. yes the math tax feats are free, just was not familiar with the term

backgrounds dont need to be extremely long, just enough to tell me how your character got where he is today. plot hooks are always welcome but not required

@tigerusthegreat: your name sounds really familiar. have you ever played dungeons and dragons online?

tigerusthegreat · 06-27-2012, 05:50 PM

played DDO a long time ago but not sure what name i used

D&D character creator crunch so far, will add it to a character sheet later with name and background.

Spoiler

oblivion6 · 06-27-2012, 05:59 PM

perhaps it was you i always quested with in DDO then. i believe it was someone by the name of tigerus. im sure you can see the resembalance to your name here

your character looks good so far

tigerusthegreat · 06-27-2012, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oblivion6

perhaps it was you i always quested with in DDO then. i believe it was someone by the name of tigerus. im sure you can see the resembalance to your name here

your character looks good so far

I played DDO only briefly, so I doubt it.

I'm not very good at optimizing characters, so suggestions are welcome for my character.

oblivion6 · 06-28-2012, 11:23 PM

okay so far we have

battlemind/rogue
infernal warlock
dragonborn battlemind
werebear druid
avenging paladin

tcrudisi · 06-30-2012, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerusthegreat

I played DDO only briefly, so I doubt it.

I'm not very good at optimizing characters, so suggestions are welcome for my character.

Well, ask and you shall receive.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you have the old offline character builder. If that's true - a lot of the things I'll post here you do not have in your character builder. Depending on the number of things I suggest, I might not feel comfortable putting that many things online. (If it's only a couple, which I doubt after a quick look at your character, then I'll happily post them here.) If there's too many, just message me and I'll message back the details. Of course, you might actually have access to them, which makes this whole paragraph redundant.

Let's start with the things you MUST change:

You are being given Versatile Expertise and Improved Defenses for free. I say this because you took Paragon Defenses. PD does not stack with ID. ID is strictly better. This means you now have a free slot.

You did not take a background or a theme. For backgrounds, I suggest either Born Under a Bad Sign (use Str for hp instead of Con) or any random background that increases a single skill of your choice by +2. For themes, you've got a few good options. However, you don't have anything in the way of off-turn actions, so I lean towards Guardian for the extra boost to your ability to defend. Elemental Initiate is really good for the ability to use Ki Focus, boost to Will defense, and nice off-action attack. Finally, because it fits with the whole "I'm a Paladin, I protect my allies, rawr!" schtick they have, Knight Hospitaler is an excellent theme. It lets you heal an ally that's just taken damage from an attack as an off-action. Not bad.

That's it for the "mandatory" additions/changes you must make. Now let's go on to other choices for optimization purposes. These are just recommendations and are by no means required. If you took a power because you think it sounds fun or because you like it, then keep it. :)

Stats: I'm not a big fan of having your Con that high. What's the point? A couple of extra healing surges will not prove to be amazing for you. You can only use Lay on Hands so many times a day, so it's not as if you'll burn through them there, and certainly not with Wis 15. And the loss of a couple of HP isn't going to kill you. Just take the Born Under a Bad Sign background.

Instead, I'd leave everything as it was at the start except swap Cha and Wis. This makes your level 1 stats: Str 18, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 16. Then, with your level-up points, dump them into Str and Cha. This makes your final stats: Str 22, Con 15, Dex 11, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 20.

Advantages of this: Your Divine Challenge/Divine Sanction now do more damage. You are now free to take an occasional Cha power. Your Wis remained the same (no real difference between 14 and 15), so you lose nothing there. Your hp will actually increase because now you ARE taking Born Under a Bad Sign.

Disadvantages of this: Your Con is lower, so you can no longer take Hammer Rhythm. I consider this a good thing - doing 3 damage on a miss? Meh. I'd rather take a weapon with a +3 prof bonus and help ensure I hit. Your powers have a lot of riders on them, so why set yourself up for failure? You also lose out on two healing surges, but there's a Battlemind in the party, so you two should be sharing damage anyway. And, uh, I guess your background is now locked into Born Under a Bad Sign, so you don't get to take random background that gives +2 to a skill of your choice.

At-Will:

Holy Strike was a great choice.

Valiant Strike is a good power. However, one of your two at-wills should go to make room for Ardent Strike and it looks like Valiant Strike is it. Seriously, look at Ardent Strike. It improves your ability to defend by allowing you to have more targets under your divine challenge. That's wonderful. (Exception: if you take a lot of powers to place your divine challenge on creatures, then feel free to leave this as Valiant Strike.)

Encounter:

Hold Fast is a great power. I like Winter's Challenge better. Attack everything around you and immobilize them all. Find a way to teleport out of there and you've just made several enemies lose their turn. Hahahaha.

Thunder Smite is also a great power. I personally lean towards Ravenfrost Strike or Crescent Moon, but YMMV.

Whirlwind Smite? Noooo. The marked condition is terrible for you. What does it do? It gives the enemy a -2 penalty to attack someone else. Instead, you want powers that place a divine sanction on the enemy since that actually makes them think about what to do. To that end, check out Castigating Strike. It's much, much better.

Daily:

Unrelenting Punishment? Meh. I'd be remiss if I didn't point out Unyielding Faith. Boost that Cha up some and when you pair this daily with Champion of Order, you have an amazing, amazing daily. Otherwise, go Arc of Vengeance to improve your marking capability or Shadow's Apathy for the nice control it offers.

Knightly Intercession is good. Great, even, when paired with Champion of Order. I like it a lot. I would also consider Death Angel and Spirit Harrow which are also great powers.

Flames of Devotion is meh. I don't like the sustain since a lot of your minor actions will be used on Divine Challenge. If you want to go for the "do more damage" stick, then look at Divine Vengeance.

Utilities:

Call of Challenge is an AMAZING utility. Well done.

Fury of the Battle God. No, just, no. If you do decide to increase your Cha some, Wrath of the Gods is amazing. Otherwise, I notice you don't have a healer in the party. Guess what? There's a level 2 utility which is just as amazing as Call of Challenge. It's called Virtue. Due to the way that temp hp works, they stay on you UNTIL you take a short or extended rest. So you take a short rest and at the end of it you use Virtue. You now have your healing surge value in temp hps that will last to the next combat, automatically. It means you are pre-using your healing surges which is nothing short of amazing. With a healer, it means he can focus on healing a squishier member of the party. Without a healer, it will literally save your life.

Cleansing Spirit. Interesting choice. I like the power. Note, however, that it's a ranged power, so you will incur OA's when you use it. Here, instead, I'd use Winter's Arrival. Remember when I said that if you could find a way to teleport you could cause a lot of monsters to lose their turn? Well now you have! Or use it to annoy the DM when he thinks he's immobilized/restrained you away from potential targets! And teleportation is fun!

Great choice of a paragon path.

Feats that I would replace:

Durable. Meh. You still have 12 without it. Considering there's a Battlemind in the party, that's good enough.

Dragonborn Senses. Low-light vision? Please, just carry around an everburning torch.

Draconic Majesty. It's too situational. You can only use one CD power an encounter, and there won't always be a bloodied enemy nearby when you use it.

Hammer Rhythm. I hate this feat unless you start with a post-racial 20 in your attack stat and that attack stat happens to be Con. Who cares about doing 3 damage on a miss? It forces you to use a weapon with a +2 proficiency bonus which means you are less accurate. Give me a +3 proficiency bonus weapon any day of the week.

Paragon Defenses. Improved Defenses is strictly better.

Feats I would take in their place:

You are already being given Versatile Expertise for free. I would take Holy Symbols and Heavy Blades. If you take that one theme, I would do Ki Focus instead of Heavy Blades.

You are already being given Improved Defenses for free. This means you WILL have one free feat automatically. To that end...

Draconic Challenge. Take it and love it. Accept no substitute here.

Superior Will. Yes, it will only give you +1 Will over Improved Defenses, but it's the ability to save versus stun and daze at the start of your turn which is amazing.

Disciple of Freedom. Make saves versus Immobilized, Slowed, and Restrained at the start of your turn. Sweet.

Hero's Poise. Truly an amazing feat for someone with a high Cha. And, with the aforementioned two feats, you'll be making a lot of saves. You did swap out those stats, right?

Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) is also a good choice since it appears you want to do damage.

Items:

You have taken two arms slot items: Bracers of Mighty Striking and the Mountain Shield heavy shield. Yes, shields count as an arms slot item in addition to taking up a hand slot. The character builder does not reflect this and it is an example of the character builder being wrong. (Rules Compendium p. 277 and 283 will clarify this.)

Symbol of the Champion's Code is a requirement. Take one, even if it's the level 8 version.

Mountain Shield is ... meh. Get rid of it and save yourself a lot of gold. The take up Iron Armbands since you really want to do more damage.

Want to hear some good news? Since you've replaced your hammer with a long sword or bastard sword, you can get a +3 weapon and have the same attack modifier as if you used the +4 hammer. Guess what happens to be a level 15 weapon? Radiant weapon! Comes with an extra +3 to all damage rolls attached, meaning you don't need Iron Armbands. Lots of flavor, too! And it frees you up to use a shield if you like. It also means...

+4 Plate Armor. Armor is very nice to get up an enhancement level higher since it means you get TWO extra points of defense. Warplate is good (AC +11) or Specter Plate is good too (AC +10, but resist 2 all damage). Compare this to the +3 version: Gith Shell (AC +10). This means you are comparing AC +15 and +14/resist 2 for the +4 armors vs. AC +13 for the +3 armor.

Okay, I'm exhausted after looking at all of this. I hope it helps. And yes, I am an optimizer. Good luck!

FatherVenom · 06-30-2012, 08:34 AM

I've taken a look at infernal warlock again & I'm disappointed with it. Gonna change to a melee ranger. Think Belkar but not an arrogant **** or party hostile. Write up by Monday at the latest (busy weekend for me). Should be pretty close to optimized for my purposes but everyone should feel free to comment on my build when I post.

tigerusthegreat · 06-30-2012, 11:19 AM

Thanks tcrudisi, I'm making changes. I have books, but I use the character builder as a quick look through a lot of options.

I didn't realize a shield took up an arms slot....very interesting, and something I'll have to enforce in my campaigns now.

One question though, is hurl breath worth taking as a feat? I've seen it be effective against minions time and time again, and if my breath is challenging everyone in the burst, having it be a ranged ability might be very useful.

Feats chosen:
Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blades, Holy Symbols)
Improved Defenses
1: Draconic Challenge
2: Toughness [Not sure if this should be replaced, its only 10hp and other options might be better]
4: Improved Will
6: Mighty Challenge [Small extra radiant damage might be better to swap it]
8: Bitter Challenge [As with Mighty challenge, not sure if I should swap it, I like this better than mighty challenge]
10: Disciple of Freedom
11: Armor Specialization [Plate]
12: Hero's Poise
14: Wpn Proficiency (Bastard Sword)

Changed equipment to:
Periapt of Health +2 (lvl 10)
Acrobat Boots (lvl 2)
Belt of Vigor (lvl 2)
Symbol of the Champion's Code (lvl 8)
Magic Spectre Plate Armor +4 (lvl 16)
Radiant Bastard Sword +3 (lvl 15)
Counterstrike Guards [Paragon] (lvl 14)

Powers:
Swapped Valiant Strike with Ardent Strike
Swapped Hold Fast with Winter's Edge
Swapped Whirlwind Strike with Castigating Strike
Swapped Flames of Devotion for Knights Defiance, which seems to synchronize with everything I have
Swapped Fury of the Battle God with Virtue
Swapped Cleansing Spirit with Winter's Arrival

Shadow_Elf · 06-30-2012, 12:28 PM

Very much up for some paragon-level combat. I should have time later today or tomorrow to work up a good concept.

tcrudisi · 06-30-2012, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerusthegreat

I didn't realize a shield took up an arms slot....very interesting, and something I'll have to enforce in my campaigns now.

One question though, is hurl breath worth taking as a feat? I've seen it be effective against minions time and time again, and if my breath is challenging everyone in the burst, having it be a ranged ability might be very useful.

It only takes up an arms slot if they are both magical. You can have a normal heavy shield and a magical arms slot just fine.

Yes, it's worth it. Note that it won't be amazingly accurate. The older racial powers don't scale well (see feat taxes). Basically, they give +2/4/6 when the newer ones give +3/6/9. So you are -2 from where you should be normally. But is it worth it? Perhaps. That's up to you. I think it's a good enough feat, absolutely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerusthegreat

2: Toughness [Not sure if this should be replaced, its only 10hp and other options might be better]
4: Improved Will
6: Mighty Challenge [Small extra radiant damage might be better to swap it]
8: Bitter Challenge [As with Mighty challenge, not sure if I should swap it, I like this better than mighty challenge]

Toughness is a solid enough feat. A great one? No, but 10 extra hit points also means your bloodied value is 5 higher and your healing surge value is 2-3 higher. For a dragonborn, that's good. Are there better feats? Yes, but you aren't hurting yourself by taking it.

What is Improved Will? I know of Iron Will and Superior Will. Superior Will is the one from Heroes of the Fallen Lands.

Mighty Challenge is a fantastic feat. Trust me - that is one feat that you absolutely want to keep. It simultaneously improves your damage output and makes you a better defender. +6 damage when the monster violates your mark is huge. That's why the Champion's Symbol is necessary, and it only adds +2 at level 8.

Bitter Challenge is another terrific feat. Basically it makes your mark more threatening and that's what you want it to be: something to make the enemy attack you - the guy with the high defenses and the high hit points.

Shadow_Elf · 06-30-2012, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcrudisi

It only takes up an arms slot if they are both magical. You can have a normal heavy shield and a magical arms slot just fine.

I think that the shields were just placed in Arms for the purposes of sorting. The character builder will allow a magical shield and magical arms slot, because the shield actually takes up the off-hand weapon slot.

tcrudisi · 07-01-2012, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Elf

I think that the shields were just placed in Arms for the purposes of sorting. The character builder will allow a magical shield and magical arms slot, because the shield actually takes up the off-hand weapon slot.

This is a case of "The character builder is not a rules source."

The Rules Compendium did not change this rule (see where I cited it above), but I'll go back to the good old PHB1 for this since it's a book that probably everyone has:

PHB1, p. 224: "You can benefit from only one magic item that you wear in your arms slot even if, practically speaking, you can wear bracers and carry a shield at the same time. You benefit from the item that you put on first; any other item you put in the same item slot doesn't function for you until you take off the first item.

Now, let's skip down a bit and go to p. 244 where the Arms slot magic items are listed. The first one we see is Bashing Shield. On the next page, Dragondaunt Shield, Guardian Shield, Shield of Defiance, Shield of Deflection, Shield of Protection, and Shield of Warding. In fact, if you look in the character builder at any magical shield, you will see that it has Item Slot: Arms in its statistics.

So, yes, while shields take up the off-hand slot, they also take up the arms slot.

The character builder allows you to use a magical shield and a magical arms slot, but this is not the rules. It's just one example where the character builder is wrong. It's a great tool, but it's not a rules source.

Shadow_Elf · 07-01-2012, 03:09 PM

Alright, I have finished my character in the Builder, I just need to transfer to Myth-Weavers and work on story elements. Do I correctly understand that we get Improved Defenses and an Expertise Feat of our choosing for free? I made the character under that assumption, but I can change it.

The character is a Pixie Berzerker named Fluttershy, who is a meek and quiet protector of her friends while in defender mode, and an unstoppable force of nature in her striker mode who becomes belligerent and merciless. She should be able to dish out tons of damage, and by making use of her ability to enter enemies' spaces combined with her Defender Aura, she should be able to effectively shut down at least one enemy. The only issue is that she ought not to be the only striker or defender in the party, since she doesn't always work as both.

Megatron46 · 07-02-2012, 06:04 AM

Okay, everytime I think I have time to do this... I don't!

I'm going to have to bail on this one, sorry!
Hope you all have a grand game!

Leon · 07-02-2012, 09:45 AM

Interested: Half Elf Ardent

Spoiler