Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof - Page 10

IthilanorStPete · 07-24-2012, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Forum Question: What color(s) should the following effect be?

Well, I'd say it should be at least part black; no other color gets -x/-x effects. Making a creature lose flying seems to be straight green these days, so I'd go with B/G, though you might be able to justify it in straight black. I think that'd be too much of a bleed for a minor effect, however.

Zavoniki · 07-24-2012, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Forum Question: What color(s) should the following effect be?

Probably Green/Black but if it has to be mono-color it probably should be black. None of the other colors get unconditional -X/-X for the most part.

The existence of Leeching Bite means that depending on how evil each color is supposed to be it could possibly, very possibly, be Mono-Green. Especially seeing as Hornet Sting also exists. Green is the tertiary color for a whole lot of effects(haste and vigilance for example), and the fliers clause ONLY shows up on green cards for modern magic.

That's a long way of saying, should be Black/Green, but if forced to be mono-color there is a very strong argument for it being Green over Black.

Of course Leeching Bite and Hornet Sting came from a time when they were still figuring out green removal. With dawn of Prey Upon, it's unlikely that -X/-X can be anything other than black.

Though I'm pretty sure if that card were submitted to R and D they'd change it to either have some other rider than loses flying, or make it target only flying.

tgva8889 · 07-24-2012, 04:41 AM

I think Green is actually secondary in Vigilance, because there are some recent commons with it (notably Sentinel Spider). Green is tertiary in Haste, though.

I think Hornet Sting and Leeching Bite are specifically against color pie. At least, from what I get from Mark Rosewater's dislike of Hornet Sting. I would assume Leeching Bite falls into a similar camp, since the previous iteration of its effect was Consume Strength.

I would wish for such an effect to cost only C, so the fact that it probably fits into multiple colors does not speak well for it ever actually happening. I was just curious since it seems like the key to making a "loses flying" card actually playable is to attach some kind of combat trick or removal value to it.

DMofDarkness · 07-24-2012, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Forum Question: What color(s) should the following effect be?

I would say Black(Green). Flier hats is green, but I can see how adding a debilitation to a scar would be very black, indeed. For costing C, it could easily be (G/B).

IcemanJRC · 07-24-2012, 10:07 AM

I'd put it at (G/B) if there were hybrids in the set it was designed for. Both are minor effects that could work in either color, though I'm of the opinion it's more green than black.

9mm · 07-24-2012, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Forum Question: What color(s) should the following effect be?

Probably black/green, though Black/Blue could also reasonably work due to blue being about narrow answers.

Lord Seth · 07-24-2012, 04:04 PM

So...with the shocklands (presumably) being reprinted, I'm curious...has there been any other card which was worth a reasonable amount, was not Standard legal, and then was reprinted in a Standard-legal set? I'm curious what it will do to the price (supply will go up, but so will demand) and whether it would be cheaper to buy some beforehand (again, assuming they are reprinted). The main issue is I can't think of any similar cards to compare the effect on prices to. Can anyone think of any?

Squark · 07-24-2012, 04:40 PM

Revised Mono-black control list. Thoughts?

Spoiler

Zombimode · 07-24-2012, 04:40 PM

Hm, does Rancor count?
Befor the reprint they were about 1,50 - 2,0 € apiece.
Now you can reasonably expect to get them for half this price (I got my playset for 0,75€ per Rancor).

But maybe the current standard meta has not caught up to Rancor yet.

Also, price is a far cry from shockland level.

Birds of Paradise are also pretty cheap now. The used to be, what, 10€ the bird? But they have been reprinted almost every year since Ravnica, so this does not surprise.

tgva8889 · 07-24-2012, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

So...with the shocklands (presumably) being reprinted, I'm curious...has there been any other card which was worth a reasonable amount, was not Standard legal, and then was reprinted in a Standard-legal set? I'm curious what it will do to the price (supply will go up, but so will demand) and whether it would be cheaper to buy some beforehand (again, assuming they are reprinted). The main issue is I can't think of any similar cards to compare the effect on prices to. Can anyone think of any?

From research I have heard about but never actually seen or read, apparently the cost of older versions of cards either increased or did not change in price when the card was reprinted in Standard-legal sets. I'm not certain where that comes from or what examples were used, though, so I'm not sure how reliable that is.

There aren't a lot of cards like the shocklands to compare to, as since they've been printed they've always been in pretty good demand which has kept their price high. Birds is a different kind of card since besides the fact that it has somewhere around 10 different printings, the card has also been legal in Standard for a really large amount of time.

Because of the way the draft formats work out, the shocklands (assuming they are both in RTR and GTC and are rare) will probably end up showing up in great numbers. The demand will be higher than usual since they will be wanted for both Standard and Modern (which would have been true even if they weren't already in Modern), but there will probably be a lot more of them around. I dunno what the price on them is now, but if it stays at $20 after the new printing that would be pretty interesting.

What you might be able to do is buy a bunch now and sell them as soon as they preview, since before RTR comes out you can bet the price of them will jump as soon as we know they're in the set.

Lord Seth · 07-24-2012, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

From research I have heard about but never actually seen or read, apparently the cost of older versions of cards either increased or did not change in price when the card was reprinted in Standard-legal sets. I'm not certain where that comes from or what examples were used, though, so I'm not sure how reliable that is.

Well when talking about prices, I'm less interested in the price of the original versions, I just want to know if it means it'll be less or more expensive to get a copy of the card. Wish you knew where the research came from though...

I do know that the price of original Chain Lightnings dropped when it was reprinted in the Premium Deck Series, though that didn't suddenly make it Standard legal.

Quote:

There aren't a lot of cards like the shocklands to compare to, as since they've been printed they've always been in pretty good demand which has kept their price high.

That's not quite true. Their price was a little high when they were Standard legal, but they gradually dropped in price afterwards. It wasn't until Modern came along that their prices suddenly went up. Like...look at this for example. Note the (overall) trend in the price going down until mid-2011 when Modern was created.

Quote:

Birds is a different kind of card since besides the fact that it has somewhere around 10 different printings, the card has also been legal in Standard for a really large amount of time.

At this point I think the only thing to really lower the price of Birds of Paradise is if they stopped printing it. They've been printing it for so long that I doubt the price will be decreased, but if they halt it then it won't be Standard legal and demand will drop.

Oh well, soon enough we'll see I guess. I believe Wizards (or at least some employees) have said that we'll be seeing some reprints of Modern staples this year (and I believe the shocklands are the most expensive cards in the format after Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant), and between that and Return to Ravnica it's hard to believe the shocklands won't be reprinted.

Zavoniki · 07-25-2012, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

So...with the shocklands (presumably) being reprinted, I'm curious...has there been any other card which was worth a reasonable amount, was not Standard legal, and then was reprinted in a Standard-legal set? I'm curious what it will do to the price (supply will go up, but so will demand) and whether it would be cheaper to buy some beforehand (again, assuming they are reprinted). The main issue is I can't think of any similar cards to compare the effect on prices to. Can anyone think of any?

I think it depends on the art oddly enough. If the art changes, then I think the original shocklands will end up being higher in price because people want the original artwork instead of the new, while if they are the same no one will care. If it's the same art then I assume the price will go down.

tgva8889 · 07-25-2012, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

That's not quite true. Their price was a little high when they were Standard legal, but they gradually dropped in price afterwards. It wasn't until Modern came along that their prices suddenly went up. Like...look at this for example. Note the (overall) trend in the price going down until mid-2011 when Modern was created.

I guess it depends on definitions of "high." For a card that was only played in Extended, being $7-8 is pretty good.

I expect releasing more of them will probably decrease the price, as there will probably end up being a lot of them. I mean, Wizards will probably make them Rares, which means there will end up being a lot of them since people like to Draft. Though if you don't have them and you want them to play Standard immediately after the release, you should probably buy them now as the prices are most certainly going to increase as soon as they are previewed. Prices before the set has been out for a while are many times absurd.

Lord Seth · 07-25-2012, 02:46 AM

On an unrelated topic, one thing I thought would be cool is if, for my High Tide deck, I had each Island be in a different language (preferably older versions where it still had the "add U to your mana pool" in the text book to better highlight the difference). Problem is, I'm not sure how to go about getting those Islands. I'm sure I could get them all separately if I tried (maybe from eBay), but I'm wondering if there's any particular place online that sells them where it'd be possible to order them all at once.

Also, anyone happen to know how many different languages there are for the lands, so I'd know if that plan is even possible?

tgva8889 · 07-25-2012, 05:17 AM

Not sure how many languages there are of the Islands you're looking for, but from what I've found, Magic is printed in around 11 different languages, which is probably not enough for a full High Tide deck. Even historically I don't know that there's enough different languages of Magic for you to make enough Islands.

Zombimode · 07-25-2012, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Not sure how many languages there are of the Islands you're looking for, but from what I've found, Magic is printed in around 11 different languages, which is probably not enough for a full High Tide deck. Even historically I don't know that there's enough different languages of Magic for you to make enough Islands.

Portuguese is suspiciously missing from the list of languages for Islands in Gatherer though. I DO know for certain that there are portuguese (sorry for misspelling) magic cards, so there should be Islands.

Lord Seth · 07-25-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Not sure how many languages there are of the Islands you're looking for, but from what I've found, Magic is printed in around 11 different languages, which is probably not enough for a full High Tide deck. Even historically I don't know that there's enough different languages of Magic for you to make enough Islands.

Well, High Tides usually have around 11 Islands (the rest are fetchlands), so that should fit. Mine has 13, but that's until I get the Misty Rainforests I need.

tgva8889 · 07-25-2012, 05:18 PM

Oh yeah, I forgot about fetchlands. In that case you should be fine.

Lhurgyof · 07-25-2012, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

On an unrelated topic, one thing I thought would be cool is if, for my High Tide deck, I had each Island be in a different language (preferably older versions where it still had the "add U to your mana pool" in the text book to better highlight the difference). Problem is, I'm not sure how to go about getting those Islands. I'm sure I could get them all separately if I tried (maybe from eBay), but I'm wondering if there's any particular place online that sells them where it'd be possible to order them all at once.

Also, anyone happen to know how many different languages there are for the lands, so I'd know if that plan is even possible?

Each Island should be a Guru Island, then I will be impressed.

Razaele · 07-26-2012, 06:30 AM

So, I made a couple of decks. Not sure if they're tournament level, but I was at least able to beat a couple of Delver decks with the first one. Does anyone have any suggestions or criticisms about them?

Tokens

Spoiler

Zombies

Spoiler

Honestly, I feel that I'm still not very good with this entire mana curve thing. Also, I have no idea how to construct a good sideboard. Help please?

Lord Seth · 07-26-2012, 12:12 PM

On sideboarding: Well, Magic 2012 did have an "anti-enemy color" card for each color, which are worth considering sideboarding. They're Combust (Red), Flashfreeze (Blue), Celestial Purge (White), Deathmark (Black), and Autumn's Veil (Green). I'm not sure how good Autumn's Veil is, but I will say that Combust, Celestial Purge, and Deathmark are pretty good and probably worth sideboarding if they're in a color you're running. I personally found Flashfreeze to be a bit narrow, though it's still decent.

Some other good possibilities that will work in either deck are Phyrexian Metamorph (gets rid of legends) Revoke Existence (for getting rid of artifacts/enchantments), and Surgical Extraction/Tormod's Crypt (for stuff like Unburial Rites, as well as undying/Rancor).

Nightson · 07-26-2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razaele

Honestly, I feel that I'm still not very good with this entire mana curve thing. Also, I have no idea how to construct a good sideboard. Help please?

A good sideboard is one designed to make your deck stronger against the meta it's fighting in. So you can say after round one, "Alright, against a reanimator deck bringing creatures back, time to sideboard in my Nihil Spellbombs and creature removal." or "Hmm, big green hexproof things, time to side out my targeted removal and bring in more Geth's Verdicts. Hmm, and he's splashing red for wolf run too, I'll add a Ghost Quarter as well."

As such, the sideboard depends on what your local meta looks like, you can check out similar decklists to get an idea of the staple sideboard cards and then modify it based on what you're seeing in your area.

The mana curve is simply put, trying to minimize the chance of being mana starved or mana flooded and to try and make sure you have something to cast as many turns as possible. Your land count (and any mana acceleration or mana dorks) are tied to the amount of mana it costs to cast your spells.

For example, looking at your zombie deck.
You have 24 lands
CMC 1: 12 (Tragic slip, Diregraf Ghoul, Gravecrawler)
CMC 2: 8 (Blood Artist, Sign in Blood)
CMC 3: 8 (Diregraf Captain, Geralf's Messenger)
CMC 4: 6 (Falkenrath Noble, Disciple of Bolas)

This is the curve that's meant, for the zombies deck, the peak is at 1 and then tapers down. For less aggressive decks the peak will be at a later CMC. Your land count is probably on the high side for your curve and you could go down by one or two and improve the deck.

airwolf · 07-27-2012, 02:49 PM

hey all i am looking for a card for my spirit deck. i am looking to generate spirit tokens and yes i know about the artifact but that requires 3 humans and i do not have any in my deck. i also know about the the 2 instant and the land(also i have it). also i am running blue white

Mystic Muse · 07-27-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airwolf

hey all i am looking for a card for my spirit deck. i am looking to generate spirit tokens and yes i know about the artifact but that requires 3 humans and i do not have any in my deck. i also know about the the 2 instant and the land(also i have it). also i am running blue white

Midnight Haunting
Doomed Traveler
Geist-honored Monk
Elgaud Inquisitor
Lingering Souls
Mausoleum guard
Requiem Angel
Seance

Those are all the cards in Standard that are in Blue and White that I know of that can generate spirit creature tokens in some way. You could also use Mimic Vat while it's still legal to continually bring back a non-token spirit creature that has died.

arguskos · 07-27-2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic Muse

Midnight Haunting
Doomed Traveler
Geist-honored Monk
Elgaud Inquisitor
Lingering Souls
Mausoleum guard
Requiem Angel
Seance

Those are all the cards in Standard that are in Blue and White that I know of that can generate spirit creature tokens in some way. You could also use Mimic Vat while it's still legal to continually bring back a non-token spirit creature that has died.

You missed Moorland Haunt, one of the best spirit generators available right now.

Androgeus · 07-27-2012, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arguskos

You missed Moorland Haunt, one of the best spirit generators available right now.

Airwolf said he knew about the land.

If we can go outside standard, Forbidden Orchard was also missed.... what? He never said he wanted for himself, just make them.

arguskos · 07-27-2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androgeus

Airwolf said he knew about the land.

If we can go outside, Forbidden Orchard was also missed.... what? He never said he wanted for himself, just make them.

Ah, I see. HERPDERPBLINDMANTYPING

Anyways. So, Trading Post? Any off-beat Standard suggestions for it? Already doing the wellspring/wurmcoil thing (man, Trading Post+Wurmcoil Engine=deeply unfair). I also have a Spine of Ish Sah for giggles (8: Destroy a permanent. Draw a card. Seems good).

Sith_Happens · 07-27-2012, 06:09 PM

So I've played a good number of games with my shiny new sacrifice deck by now, and am finding that Grave Pact might actually be unnecessary. So far, every turn I've had that I could have cast one has been better spent exploiting Blood Artist for fun and profit, and once I start doing that my opponent's creatures are generally no longer a concern.

This, of course, means that I am in need of something to replace the three Grave Pacts in question with. Current decklist:

Spoiler

The replacement definitely needs to be some kind of removal, since a black deck with only four kill spells is simply unacceptable and I've found that I currently have almost no defense against aggro strategies for the first three turns. In particular, removing Grave Pact opens the way to exploiting mass removal in all its glory. Right now I'm thinking Black Sun's Zenith, for a few reasons:
1. It's castable on turn three (one turn earlier than when I could just use Grave Pact anyways) if my opponent has a bunch of 1-toughness creatures, or even just a bunch of creatures whose bite could use a little weakening to buy me a turn or two.
2. The shuffle effect ensures that the effectively-one-sided board wipes will keep coming, which is always a good thing.
3. I could use a dirty trick my cousin came up with where you Zenith for X = 1 or 2 to get the +1/+1 counter off of Geralf's Messenger.

4. It's cheaper than Damnation by a factor of ten.

Thoughts?

Also, I'm considering the merits of getting an Overgrown Tomb or two in order to use Rancor instead of Grafted Wargear (because Rancor is just that awesome).

9mm · 07-27-2012, 10:38 PM

so go to FMN booster draft; not liking what I'm seeing at 3rd pack, pick door to nothingness, still unsatisfied at 5th pick with another door available. Say "screw it" and pick it and build a door deck. I got 2 door activations, and 1 beat down win, and constant near losses: lolz were had.

Gauntlet · 07-27-2012, 10:48 PM

@Sith Happens

Killing Wave might be an option too, since it lets you bin all your creatures for B if you feel like causing massive life drain. Mutilate and Barter In Blood (or Innocent Blood) would probably work reasonably as well.

Splash options:
U: Phantasmal Image is Blood Artist 5 through 8, which usually ends games fast. If you want to up the Zombie count, Diregraf Captain also lends a hand here.

W: Stoneforge Mystic fetches Skullclamp, which is banned in multiple formats for a reason. I would seriously consider splashing just for SFM, possibly also running a singleton Batterskull to stabilise with against aggro decks. White also gives you access to all the wraths you would ever need- take your pick.

G: I don't think Rancor really helps your game plan much. Pernicious Deed is a delicious sweeper, though, and Garruk Relentless can defend you.

R: Falkenrath Aristocrat is a strong sacrifice outlet on a beefy body. You also get access to another load of sweepers- take your pick.

On the deck as a whole: If you can get a reliable method of making Bridge from Below into your yard, you can double your sacrifices. Ashnod's Altar or Phyrexian Altar might be worth it for keeping the loop going. I don't think Carrion Feeder is your strongest option- something like Plagued Rusalka would help to defend you early on, especially since many of your guys can't block.

If you can get it up and running, Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker would makes for a terrifying deck to play against.