Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[Science Officer]

Two Standard (I think) decks I've been toying with on Cockatrice, based on lists swiped from the wizards site, the ReConstructed column, IIRC.

Mono B Vengeance:

Spoiler

2 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Thopter Assembly
4 Solemn Simulacrum

3 Trading Post
4 Ichor Wellspring
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
4 Pristine Talisman
1 Spine of Ish Sah

3 Tragic Slip
1 Murder
1 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Sorin's Vengeance
2 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Tribute to Hunger

3 Sorin Markov

2 Buried Ruin
18 Swamp
4 Phyrexia's Core

Uses wellsprings with Trading Post/Phyrexia's Core for tremendous advantage.
Pristine Talismans protect and ramp into Sorin's Vengeance. Removal suite is weird because this was originally a budget formulation until I realised I couldn't get around playing the Sorins and the Sad Robots. The original ran white for Lingering Souls and more removal.

Spoiler

15 Island
4 Phyrexia's Core
4 Buried Ruin

4 Treasure Mage


2 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Visions of Beyond

1 Contagion Engine
2 Mirrorworks
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
2 Semblance Anvil
1 Soul Conduit
2 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Throne of Geth
4 Ichor Wellspring
3 Contagion Clasp
4 Grindclock
2 Unwinding Clock
3 Tumble Magnet
1 Staff of Nin

Now this one is a little sillier, uses wellsprings with Phyrexia's Core/Throne of Geth. Win Condition is Grindclock, but [sac outlet] + Spine is usually a necessary step towards that. Based on "Mark Schofield's Caged Control"

Thoughts on either?

It really bugs me how Standard is now the last two blocks + the latest core set, wish it were last three blocks + core (didn't it used to be like that?) Feels like as soon as I've got an interesting deck together, it rotates out.
's why I build more (bad) Modern decks, I guess.

[Duos]

Originally Posted by 9mm

so go to FMN booster draft; not liking what I'm seeing at 3rd pack, pick door to nothingness, still unsatisfied at 5th pick with another door available. Say "screw it" and pick it and build a door deck. I got 2 door activations, and 1 beat down win, and constant near losses: lolz were had.

This reminds me of a draft that I 4-0'd with two Etched Monstrosities. Good times.

[Lord Seth]

Originally Posted by Science Officer

It really bugs me how Standard is now the last two blocks + the latest core set, wish it were last three blocks + core (didn't it used to be like that?)

I think Standard always was the last two blocks and latest core set. Though Extended somewhat fits your bill, as it's the last four blocks (used to be the last seven, but it was changed to four). Though unfortunately, Extended doesn't seem to be a particularly popular format, especially with Modern having essentially taken its place.

[Duos]

Extended used to be cool. Then Wizards kinda screwed the pooch by cutting it in half, turning it into some sort of super-standard that was really boring and everybody hated. After people stopped played extended at all, ever, Wizards decided to make amends (and tried to start getting tournament attendance again), and gave us modern. So, really, it kind of balanced out.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Alright...I've constructed my Nicol Bolas'd deck, with some alterations to the card line up and even had time to play a single game in a Planechase multi with it, where it didn't fair badly, but that's mostly because of planar help and my opponent's tearing each other apart.

Still, the deck performed well enough and here's the new decklist.

Nico Bolas'd

Spoiler

Lands
4x Drowned Catacomb
1x Sulfur Falls
4x Dragonskull Summit (Got another one)
2x Desolate Lighthouse
7x Island (Until I put in 2 Ghost Quarter)
6x Mountain
3x Swamp

Other Mana Fixing:
2x Gem of Becoming
Turns out I traded my Gilded Lotus...oops. I'll try to get two more though.

Creatures:
2x Clone
3x Delver of Secrets
2x Sphinx of Uthuun
3x Disciple of Bolas
2x Augur of Bolas (Only because it turns out I only have two)
2x Mindclaw Shaman

Planeswalkers:
x2 Nicol Bolas

Spells:
1x Blasphemous Act
3x Magma Quake
2x Doomblade
4x Pillar of Flame
2x Negate
3x Desperate Ravings (Turns out I have four)

Sideboard:
None yet, open to suggestion.

The most obvious plans are getting a third Sphinx of Uthuun, a third Bolas (already got a line on one actually, just need to trade for it), a second Blasphemous Act (They clear the board of spirit tokens for me, and like Magmaquake are a poor man's Bonfire), and two more Augur's. Something I've realized though is there really isn't much black presence in the deck and Mutilates would be a much preferred option to have. I've certainly got enough of them to use even so how might I re-work my mana-base so it's more black heavy so Mutilate is more useful?

Desperate Ravings proved highly useful, but it also got me to discard cards I needed twice out of the four times I played it. The random bit can really hurt. Would Forbidden Alchemy be a better option or should I add in it alongside the Desperate (what should it replace in that regard)? Pillar of Flame performed spectacularly, exiling two Champions of the Parish before they could grow, but I do feel like I'm hurting for repeat uses of them. Of course the only real way to get more uses is Snapcaster or the....Mystical Retrieval? It was in Avacyn, you returned a sorcery or instant from your graveyard to your hand and it flashbacked with red. I get the feeling that, if I do go for more black, that Crippling Fear might be a more valid option but what it would replace is escaping me.

What's left is...sideboard. And actually playing the game one on one instead of in a multi, so what's the playground think?

[Zavoniki]

So I was searching through Gatherer recently out of boredom and thinking about about how to beat Splinter Twin in Modern and came up with the following idea for a Standard deck:

ThisIsProbabyAReallyBadIdeaButICantGetItOutOfMyHea d.deck

Spoiler

4x Bonfire of the Damned
4x Blaspephemous Act
4x Slagstorm
4x Wild Guess
3x Red Suns Zenith
2x Geist Flame
2x Pillar of Flame
2x Flames of the Firebrand/Arc Trail(Not sure yet. In general this slot is pretty open)
2x Harvest Pyre(Kills Restoration Angel and Silverheart + random big guys)
2x Ancient Grudge(For SoWaP)
3x Firewing Phoenix
4x Shrine of Burning Rage
4x Helion Crucible
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Copperline Gorge
4x Rootbound Crag
8x Mountain

SB:
2x Thrun
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Combust
9x Other Cards

Basically it aims to keep sweeping the board and accumlate CA that way while keeping lands/spells flowing with Wild Guess before killing your opponent over two or so turns via Shrine + 4 Power Creatures.

No I haven't played a single game with this I'm just wondering if you all think its worth putting together if only for testing purposes or if it has some glaring weakness I can't see(highly likely). It does seem like it might be pretty soft to Counter Spells and Thragtusk.

[tgva8889]

Something I just discovered while working on a Commander deck: Chandra, the Firebrand is awesome with Wild Guess. Perhaps both cards will be showing up in a future deck...

[IthilanorStPete]

Wild Guess seems awesome in general. I'm surprised Frites hasn't adopted it, from what I've seen. It reminds me of something I noticed from Innistrad - there's a ton of good graveyard enablers. Nothing quite on the par of Wild Mongrel or Psychatog, but you've got Faithless Looting, Desperate Ravings, Liliana, Forbidden Alchemy...the thing is, there's just not much to abuse them with. Unburial Rites is about the only semi-powerful thing, it seems.

[tgva8889]

I don't think Unburial Rites Reanimator is a major Standard deck right now/any more. At least from recent information, not enough people are playing it to warrant it being its own archetype anymore.

Wild Guess + Chandra, the Firebrand excites me for some kind of red control deck in standard, though. I guess I have a decent starting point for next season.

[Duos]

So, it was only a matter of time before this happened, because Japan, but there's an MTG manga in a school setting.

I know /tg/ was falling over itself having fun with the posted pages and thinking about how a game of commander would work in an anime setting (rather hilariously was the general opinion), but they're still looking for translators to work on the raws. I know I'd be exited if it got translated; the writer used *topdeck* as an onomatopoeia-anybody like that is bound to have a few other gems.

If anybody can read moonrunes/knows somebody who does/wants to take a look at what's done so far, there's a shared google doc here.

Have fun.

[Sith_Happens]

Originally Posted by Duos

So, it was only a matter of time before this happened, because Japan, but there's an MTG manga in a school setting.

I know /tg/ was falling over itself having fun with the posted pages and thinking about how a game of commander would work in an anime setting (rather hilariously was the general opinion), but they're still looking for translators to work on the raws. I know I'd be exited if it got translated; the writer used *topdeck* as an onomatopoeia-anybody like that is bound to have a few other gems.

If anybody can read moonrunes/knows somebody who does/wants to take a look at what's done so far, there's a shared google doc here.

Have fun.

Didn't the Duel Masters manga originally use M:TG?

[9mm]

Originally Posted by Sith_Happens

Didn't the Duel Masters manga originally use M:TG?

No, it was a generic card game. Then the author got a bazillion fan letters asking about the game...

[Cogwheel]

Originally Posted by 9mm

No, it was a generic card game. Then the author got a bazillion fan letters asking about the game...

Having read the very first episode so very many years ago, no, it was M:TG. Played terribly, but still. I remember the first match being against a guy who ran Spike creatures.

Also the protagonist is shown to lack the experience needed to control the powerful cards in his inherited deck. By which I mean he plays Library of Alexandria T1, taps it, then takes damage from mana burn because he didn't actually have anything to spend it on. All as a way to show that the cards are too powerful for a mere beginner.

Yeah, it was a dumb comic.

[Grytorm]

I have a question about the Cascade mechanic.

Mostly I want to know how it interacts with these two cards:

Wild Guess I assume that with cascade you would not have to discard a card.

Fire // Ice If cascade hits that will both halves be cast? And can you cast both halves of that spell at once?

[Zombimode]

Originally Posted by Grytorm

Wild Guess I assume that with cascade you would not have to discard a card.

Cascade only talks about mana costs. All other costs are thus unaffected and would have to be paid.

Fire // Ice If cascade hits that will both halves be cast? And can you cast both halves of that spell at once?

From the rulings of cascade:
"If you exile a split card with Cascade, check if at least one half of that split card has a converted mana cost that's less than the converted mana cost of the spell with cascade. If so, you can cast either half of that split card."

[Mystic Muse]

Went to a Flea Market today. Found a Magic: the Gathering cooler for $5. I consider it a good day based entirely on that.

[Matar]

Okay. I have two decks I've been working on. Note: I play on Magic Workstation and don't buy my cards. I try to stick with cards that are legal and not normally banned. Or at least try to.

My Colorless deck works around having a **** ton of tiny combo's that result in me having a ton of monsters. It needs some work though, as it lacks defense against flying and sometimes has a real slow start.

Spoiler

Lands:

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cloudpost
4 Dread Statuary
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost

Creatures:
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Steel Overseer
3 Walking Atlas
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Palladium Myr
2 Precursor Golem

Artifacts:

3 Mirror Works
2 Worn Powerstone
3 Dolmen Gate
2 Akroma's Memorial
3 Soul Foundry
3 Expedition Map
3 Druidic Satchel

My Gold deck is... well. It needs alot of work. What I -want- is something that just stalls for time, makes it frustrating for the enemy to do anything, and just keeps killing them. If I could get away with this without ever having to attack then that would be wonderful. I'm just trying to shoot off as many interesting effects as possible. I was thinking to go with some Cascade cards but I don't really know what to get. It also takes a little too long to start up.

Spoiler

Lands:

4 Reflecting Pool
2 Pillar of Paruns
4 Mirrodin's Core
4 Vesuva
4 Exotic Orchard
4 Hinterland Harbor

Artifacts:
2 Darksteel Ignot

Creatures:

3 Birds of Paradise
3 Maelstrom Archangel
3 Wall of Denial
2 Alloy Myr
2 Bringer of Blue Dawn
2 Coiling Oracle

Instants:
3 Hindering Light
3 Esper Charm
3 Terminate

Sorcerys:
2 Decimate
3 Last Stand
2 Brainbite
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Enchantments:
3 Prismatic Omen

[DMofDarkness]

I might be going to the Legacy event in the Starcity Games DC Open on Sunday, and I have a question for everyone: Do you think manaless dredge could be good right now? Regular (LED) Dredge doesn't seem to be doing so well, but Manaless seems to me like it might have a decent game. It debuted in a meta that was countermagic heavy, so it's less vulnerable to the counters that RUG uses to win its matchups against Dredge, and seems to be okay/good against Merfolk for the same reasons, and my deck still can combo off against a clock that it can't race. Can I have anyone's opinion on this?

My list:

Spoiler

Beaters	Draw Spells	Dredgers	Enablers	Dread Return Targets
4 Ichorid	4 Gitaxian Probe	4 Golgari Grave-Trolls	4 Bridge From Below	4 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Nether Shadow	4 Street Wraith	4 Stinkweed Imps	4 Dread Return	1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Bloodghast		4 Golgari Thugs	4 Cabal Therapy	1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba		2 Dakmor Salvages	4 Phantasmagorian

Sideboard:
4 Shambling Shells
4 Gigapedes
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Avatar of Woe <- Want to replace with something, but not sure what.
1 Blazing Archon
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Darksteel Colossus

[tgva8889]

I can't fathom why your Dredge deck doesn't have Narcomoeba. Maybe I'm behind the times, but I'm pretty sure Narcomoeba is one of the cards that makes Dredge work.

Sphinx of Lost Truths seems so bad. I know what purpose it serves, but it just seems so terrible.

Your sideboard only has 14 cards.

[DMofDarkness]

Originally Posted by tgva8889

I can't fathom why your Dredge deck doesn't have Narcomoeba. Maybe I'm behind the times, but I'm pretty sure Narcomoeba is one of the cards that makes Dredge work.

Sphinx of Lost Truths seems so bad. I know what purpose it serves, but it just seems so terrible.

Your sideboard only has 14 cards.

...I do run Narcomoeba, and forgot to edit it in. If you note, the rest of the deck was 56 cards. Also, Darksteel Colossus was the 15th Sideboard card. It turns any Painterstone matchup into what amounts to an automatic win, so...

Sphinx has actually been really, really good for me. Remember- Dredge isn't playing the same game that you are. A 3/5 flying body is nice in any format, and the fact that it reliably lets me fill my graveyard off a Dread Return makes it even better. It's also more reliable than River Kelpie, the alternative.

[Stille_Nacht]

@ matar, we looking to keep this casual/cheap, or we looking to optimize?

@ dredge advice
Manaless is actually pretty bad now, it subsisted entirely on the ridiculous extreme control meta that mental misstep brought on. As of now, i'm pretty sure it's not even fast enough to consistently beat things like maverick pre-sideboard.

because of thalia, guardian of thraben, dredge has also been having a tougher time in its non led form. Add faithless looting to replace inconsistent, and useless if drawn deep analysis, and LED looks sort of superior, though if maverick is more uncommon in your meta, then LEDless is just as good.

i can't really say anything else about the list as.. well it's kinda hard to critique a list when my suggestion is basically to change the whole deck xD

if you really like manaless, i do suggest replacing both inkwell leviathan (too easily raced, irrelevant if you got a lot of zombies) and avatar of woe (obvious reasons) with another iona, and another copy of whatever other target suits your fancy.
Remember, manaless doesnt have the luxury of assuming a dr target will actually be in the yard when you get your 3 creatures and dr. even normal dredge isnt absolutely certain
also, 4 sphinx of lost truth is total overkill. replace at least 2 with gigapede/ something else
most people dont play those types of card anymore anyway... the logic being: "why play a card that only dredges more and gives my opponent more opportunities to answer when i can just DR a: Iona, fkz, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, etc. and just win".

[DMofDarkness]

I'll admit it- Maverick is the worst matchup for my deck. They have an even to good chance of winning game one, and post-board, they have even more hate to bring in against me. As for the other advice:
First off, manaless dredge almost always has a Dread Return target if I get 3 creatures + Dread Return. Between Phantasmagorian, which can be used in a pinch if absolutely necessary, Grave-Trolls, and 6 Mainboard Dread Return targets, it's almost a certainty. This is an area where manaless does have the advantage over mana dredge. Second, I mainboard 4 Sphinx of Lost Truths because I win the game on the spot if I return one. This isn't a deck where I have Cephalid Colosseum to fill my yard, or a Faithless Looting to dredge over half of my deck on turn 3-4. When I start chaining Sphinxes, though, the game is over- I can dredge a Dakmor Salvage off the last draw trigger to bring back Bloodghasts to get a FKZ for the win, or I generate enough Narcomoebas to finish the combo. I could potentially see myself moving one to the board and bringing in a Sphinx maindeck, but I'm iffy about that at best. They are the draw engine that allows me to have sufficient Bridges in the bin to ensure that a Flame-Kin Zealot will be lethal. If the Flame-Kin Zealot isn't there, they still ensure that I do have the singleton DR target I need in the graveyard, and that I have Bridges. For normal dredge, I can see the extra redundancy being moot. For manaless, I need it badly.

As for extra Dread Return targets... I think I'm going to change Angel of Despair and Inkwell Leviathan to Angel of Despair and Flayer of the Hatebound, for the alternate wincon (Vs Enchantress or Death and Taxes, should those come up).

[Matar]

@ matar, we looking to keep this casual/cheap, or we looking to optimize?

Optimize. I'd rather not have any cards that are banned. I mean, nothing extremely unbalanced. Like Black Lotus.

Everything else is good to go though.

[Bucky]

Originally Posted by Matar

Optimize. I'd rather not have any cards that are banned. I mean, nothing extremely unbalanced. Like Black Lotus.

Everything else is good to go though.

Personally, I'd borrow some Modern Tron tech and add 1x Eye of Ugin, 1x greater Eldrazi of choice (I prefer Ulamog) and the fourth Expedition Map over Dolmen Gate. Also, swap out at least one Darksteel Citadel for Phyrexia's Core.

[Androgeus]

Talk about the current sets/environment? pfft, like I'd ever do that.

Spoiler

99.9% likely Ravnica card. With new mechanic.

[Duos]

Originally Posted by Androgeus

Talk about the current sets/environment? pfft, like I'd ever do that.

Spoiler

99.9% likely Ravnica card. With new mechanic.

Spoiler

I'm preeeeeety sure that's a fake, since it's:
A; missing some important bits of copyright text in the bottom line, and
B; the person who found it claims that it replaced the basic land in a pack of M13 that he bought.

[DMofDarkness]

Originally Posted by Duos

Spoiler

I'm preeeeeety sure that's a fake, since it's:
A; missing some important bits of copyright text in the bottom line, and
B; the person who found it claims that it replaced the basic land in a pack of M13 that he bought.

Spoiler

It also has quite a few bits going for it, such as:
A; Mark Zug's signature in the corner of the art;
B; The fact that the art fits Ravnica and isn't a previous piece;
C; The mechanic fits the guild well and that the card would fit right into the set.

[Androgeus]

Originally Posted by Duos

Spoiler

I'm preeeeeety sure that's a fake, since it's:
A; missing some important bits of copyright text in the bottom line, and
B; the person who found it claims that it replaced the basic land in a pack of M13 that he bought.

Spoiler

note that a recent comic promo also had reduced copyright tect

[Stille_Nacht]

@ dredge deck. i know you will dr, but "higher priority" targets like iona (which, in my experience, has won 70% of games she is DRed alone) deserve serious consideration as 2-oves, just to increase the chance that she'll be in the yard when you get your 3 creatures + dr.

still don't advise no mana though :/. i mean, just look at this meta we have ><

Spoiler

Stoneforge will deal with it easily. Maverick can outrace it game one.
Tempo rug both deals with and outraces it.
Sneak and Show is faster, with a scarier target, and control elements.
Miracle Control is actually suprisingly good against it. (earlier this month we did a gauntlet, partly to teach noobies and partly to test aformentioned deck). Terminus really messes up your stuff
Bant can race, basically the same problems as maverick here...
Merfolk can race you and has control
Elves is a faster combo.
Burn is faster and NOT a combo. and you can't really interact with it. at all.

like, the entire top of the meta is at least 60/40 vs. manaless dredge :/. It was only good in the first place because NO RUG and Hive mind were dominating, and the whole format was a turn slower because of Mental Misstep

also, include at least 1 gigapede md :[, gigapede is nice :[

@matar's colorless. arite. lets get down to this.
The principle behind most colorless decks is first and foremost:
UNFAIR MANA PRODUCTION.
See: grim monolith. ancient tomb. city of traitors. voltaic key. metalworker
Then, things that ABUSE THE UNFAIR MANA. (i love this deck btw :})
See: kuldotha forgemaster (comboes with blighsteel colossus, etc.), wurmcoil engine, steel hellkite, etc. etc.), Chalice of the void (omg, so sexy)
Then, add shinies to smooth things a little and add need tricks.
See: goblin welder (use with things like myr battlesphere, wurmcoil engine, etc.), lightning greaves, mox opal, sensei's divining top

About 70% of the time, you'll have a huge artifact creature by turn 2. About 30% of the time you will resolve Kuldotha Forgemaster by turn 2, and laugh while your opponent groans as a blighsteel collosus thunders into play.

[DMofDarkness]

Well, to be honest, if I could afford the mana base, I'd run LED dredge. As it is, I have a consistent manaless deck, and I'd like to try a large tournament at least once. Currently, I'm running an Iona and a Blazing Archon as targets, as Archon seems to be good against almost all the decks out there right now. Also, I've played a few games, and it's not as bad against the meta as it seems. Cabal therapies go a long way against control, and I've done testing against the Patriot Act delver list and did well against it, I can produce large amounts of chump blockers to stall, and I can still run the deck without casting a spell against heavy control builds. I don't know for sure how it will turn out, but I'll post how I did tomorrow after the tournament.