Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[IthilanorStPete]

Originally Posted by Landis963

I can see a couple ways out of it though. If the Door wasn't tapped, a judge could rule that Player A simply floated the mana and hasn't used the ability yet. However, that's a highly suspect ruling. If the Door is tapped to use the ability, that judge could say that either the effect fizzles upon targeting Player B, or Player A is SOL. However, with a non-squirrelly interpretation of the relevant rules, Player A's SOL.

It definitely can't target Player B and then fizzle; player B can't even be declared as a target, due to the Leyline.

[DMofDarkness]

Oddly enough, this would be a time when the original wording, "Destroy target Creature or Player" would actually come in handy...

[Landis963]

Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete

It definitely can't target Player B and then fizzle; player B can't even be declared as a target, due to the Leyline.

That's right. Dangit. Player A's definitely SOL then.

[Togath]

A minor rules question I've been curious about while looking at a few cards(stab wound and auger spree mainly); if a creature's toughness is reduced to 0 by a debuff(but not by damage), is it still destroyed?

[Lea Plath]

Originally Posted by Togath

A minor rules question I've been curious about while looking at a few cards(stab wound and auger spree mainly); if a creature's toughness is reduced to 0 by a debuff(but not by damage), is it still destroyed?

Yes. If a creatures Toughness becomes 0 or less, it is sent to the graveyard as a state based effect. It is the only way to destroy invincible creatures besides saccing them.

So. I'm doing some articles for http://ponderingmagic.com/, which is starting up again. I'm gonna be going over Zombies, and what is going on with them at the moment.

Who would be interested in that with a run down of my deck list?

[memnarch]

Originally Posted by Togath

A minor rules question I've been curious about while looking at a few cards(stab wound and auger spree mainly); if a creature's toughness is reduced to 0 by a debuff(but not by damage), is it still destroyed?

Yes and no. It's just put into a graveyard as a state-based action, not destroyed. Giving an indestructable creature -1/-1s til you hit 0 toughness is a semi-common way to deal with them.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Originally Posted by Bucky

The stump-the-judge question is some variation on the following:
It's a multiplayer game with 3 remaining players. Player A has a Door to Nothingness, Player B has a Leyline of Sanctity, and Player C has nothing important.

Player A taps lands for 2 mana of each color, and then announces that he is using the Door's ability. Before he announces the target, Player C concedes. Can Player A avoid targetting himself with the Door to Nothingness?

Oh, that's an easy one. DQ player C for unsportsmanlike conduct, trap the lands, sacrifice the door, carry on with the game.

[Bucky]

Originally Posted by Thanatos 51-50

Oh, that's an easy one. DQ player C for unsportsmanlike conduct, trap the lands, sacrifice the door, carry on with the game.

I don't see where the DQ comes from.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Originally Posted by Bucky

I don't see where the DQ comes from.

Oh, yeah, assuming, of course, that one can prove intent.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is being a poor loser as much as it is a poor winner. When Player C sees the Door to Nothingness is going to target him (Because he's the only logical target), he know he has lost the game. But wait! Player C also knows this niggling little rule and decides that, well, if he can't win, neither can Player A. Therefore, Player C concedes before he is targetted. Player A can't go back on his ability, and he forces player A to target himself.
This isn't sportsmanlike. This isn't Mutually Assured Destruction through shrewd gameplay, luck or skill, it's Mutually Assured Destruction through throwing a temper tantrum.

My reasoning is similar to "Platinum Angel says you cannot lose, but you can still lose if you stand up and punch your opponent in the face."

[Bucky]

Originally Posted by Thanatos 51-50

This isn't sportsmanlike. This isn't Mutually Assured Destruction through shrewd gameplay, luck or skill, it's Mutually Assured Destruction through throwing a temper tantrum.

So something like setting off a mutually lethal Ashling the Pilgrim in response to the Door would also be poor sportsmanship?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Originally Posted by Bucky

So something like setting off a mutually lethal Ashling the Pilgrim in response to the Door would also be poor sportsmanship?

No, because that's as a result of shrewd gameplay, luck, or skill.

[Bucky]

Originally Posted by Thanatos 51-50

No, because that's as a result of shrewd gameplay, luck, or skill.

Okay, what happens if it's a team game and B is on the same team as C?

[Androgeus]

Originally Posted by Bucky

Okay, what happens if it's a team game and B is on the same team as C?

if it's just team vs. team I guess that's fine. Note that if you specifically playing two headed giant that one player conceding causes the entire team to leave the game (and also lose).

[tgva8889]

Originally Posted by Bucky

...except that you can float mana for paying the costs before declaring the spell.

You can, but people still often cast their spells incorrectly even when they do this. Most people do not realize, however, that you can actually tap your lands during the casting of your spell, rather than tapping them beforehand. Most people also do not know all of these steps.

The answer to your rules question is most likely that since the player hasn't finished activating the ability, they can stop attempting to resolve it and go back. Note that in your situation, they have not tapped or sacrificed their Door, nor have they selected targets for it. At any time during the attempt to cast a spell at any REL at which multiplayer events are judged, you can "fail" to be able to activate Door's ability and go back to before you did so.

Most judges would probably go by the heart of the rule and likely either allow Player A to "take back" activating Door or force Player A to activate it as if Player C had not conceded, "targeting" Player C and then getting countered due to lack of legal targets.

[Bucky]

Originally Posted by tgva8889

The answer to your rules question is most likely that since the player hasn't finished activating the ability, they can stop attempting to resolve it and go back. Note that in your situation, they have not tapped or sacrificed their Door, nor have they selected targets for it. At any time during the attempt to cast a spell at any REL at which multiplayer events are judged, you can "fail" to be able to activate Door's ability and go back to before you did so.

Most judges would probably go by the heart of the rule and likely either allow Player A to "take back" activating Door or force Player A to activate it as if Player C had not conceded, "targeting" Player C and then getting countered due to lack of legal targets.

Last I checked (which admittedly was several rules versions ago), the steps in activating an ability are all mandatory, but the fail+rewind case happens if you accidentally do something illegal. Intentionally doing something illegal is, er, illegal. Normally, you could get to the last step and refuse to activate mana abilities to pay the cost, but that doesn't work if all the mana is in your pool already.

EDIT:

Spoiler

Player A can, however, sacrifice the Door to pay part of its cost, then fail at paying the {T} part of the cost.

[tgva8889]

I believe how the rules would play out, the statement "I activate Door to Nothingness" is an accepted tournament shortcut for "I activate Door to Nothingness targeting a legal opponent target." Since there is only one in this case, the shortcut is likely to be interpreted as aiming Door at Player C. So if the opponent concedes in response, it does actually become illegal. Since this is an accepted tournament shortcut, there is literally no possible moment in which Player C could concede that would cause Player A to kill him/herself.

I forgot about tournament shortcuts.

Of course, there are no multiplayer events at any REL in which this situation is even possible, so I think the judge could rule to the heart of the rules and the person who was a jerk (very obviously trying to be so) would probably not be able to argue one of his opponents into losing. Any judge I can think of would probably rule this way even if the rules explicitly said otherwise, because it is pretty obvious that Player C is rules-lawyering Player A, who would never activate Door in this situation unless he was about to lose anyways, assuming the rules work against him. This part is what I was suggesting in my previous post.

[Mindfreak]

I just got an alternate artwork foil Gravecrawler(mint, never been played), 4 Alternate Artwork Diregraf Ghouls(mint, never been played with), and 2 Alternate Artwork foil Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord(mint, never been played with).
I'm a happy clam =>
Now, time to ruin their mint status by putting them in my zombies deck!

[Lea Plath]

Do tourney shortcuts allow for 4 horsemen to be played in legacy tournies? I keep hearing conflicting answers.

Also. Can I get some feedback on my cube themes. The cube is meant to be focused on multicolour deck with low colour weight. So Thropter Factory, OK. Glimpse the Unthinkable. OK. Ghost Council of Orzhov. Not OK (cause double black, double white). While there are no creatures with 3 colours that must be paided (there are some gold hybrid cards like Thropter), I'm trying to make 2-3 colour decks work. For example, BUG can use UB's mill on themselves to get a nice big grave for something powerful, or for Naya (GWR), use efficent beaters like Kird Ape and Wild Nalcalt and creature buffers to swing for Waaargh.

UB: Evasive creatures or creatures who you don't want to block or can't be block, with some hand, deck and spell disruption. An example UB card would be Inkfathom Witch, who makes all unblocked creatures 4/1. A blue card would be Jace's Phantasm (an evasive creature who likes mill) and a black card would be Oona's Prowler (a powerful evasive creature who generates card advantage for you if your opponant wants to keep their life)

BW: Flying tokens and efficent aggressive creature with removal and disruption. The example BW card would be Stillmoon Cavalier who can pump and can gain protection. The white card would be Spectral Procession (3 1/1 flyers for 3 mana) and the black card would be Duress (Disrupts the opponants hand for B mana)

BR: Killing things no matter the cost. The example BR card would be Rakdos Cackler (a 1/1 for R or B who can become a 2/2 at the cost of not blocking). The black card would be Doom Blade (A killing spell) and the red card would be Brimstone Volley (5 damage if something died this turn)

BG: Graveyard matters. The example card would be Deathrite Shaman, a 1 mana dude who turns cards in graveyard into damage or life, as well as lands. The example black card would be Death (put a card from the graveyard under your control and lose some life). The example green card would be Tarmgoyf (Gains power from a well stocked grave)

UG: Tempo beaters. The example card is Edric, Spymaster of Trest who lets you draw cards whenever you deal damage giving card advantage. The green card I was thinking of Rancor to make creatures strong and give them trample for draw effects and for blue I was thinking of Ponder for cantrips and the like.

GR: Aggro to the extreme. The example card for GR for this cube I'm looking at is Boggart Ram Gang, a 3/3 haster with wither. For red I was thinking Lightning Bolt for damage and for Green, I am a little unsure, but was thinking an Overrun type effect.

UR: Instants and sorceries matter. The example card is Niv Mizzet Elemental, who noms on instant/sorceries to get bigger. The red card is Shattering Spree, that destroys artifacts for R, and can be replicated for R, to let your cards get bigger from instant/sorceries or to blow stuff up. The blue card is Gigadrowse. Tap something anything for U and replicate for U, and if they do something in response, have the elemental eat the ability on the stack.

WR: For WR I am thinking a swarming and lots of creature theme. Where other decks might use tokens, Boros use something like Boros Recruit to buff them up and do lots of damage. The example RW card would be Figure of Destiny, who starts small but gets a lot bigger. The example W card would be Serra's Blessing to let them all swing at once, while an example R card would be Dogpile to turn attacking creatures into removal or damage.

The 2 colours I'm not sure about are UW and GW.

For UW, I was thinking permission magic and a more controlly deck but I'm unsure on what to include for people playing UW that they would want more than someone playing UG or UB or sumin.

And for GW. I have BW doing flying tokens etc, but what to do with GW. Efficent creatures? Token armies with Rhys and similar token making effects? Would GW then be viable without the tokens?
More to come.

[Penguinizer]

No, they don't. The issue does not come from the rules for shortcuts, but instead from the IPG entry for slow play. Essentially, loops require you to be able to name an end you will end at. However, The Four Horsemen has no pre-defined end state as it's based on the order of your deck (which should be random). Because of this it can't be looped under the IPG.

[Mystic Muse]

What are some good white, black or red cards that will allow me to sacrifice creatures easily? I've got a R/B/W Commander deck I'm building with Yosei and Kokusho, and I was hoping to find some decent inexpensive cards (Read: Not more than 2 dollars.) to be able to utilize them properly.

[Binks]

Originally Posted by Mystic Muse

What are some good white, black or red cards that will allow me to sacrifice creatures easily? I've got a R/B/W Commander deck I'm building with Yosei and Kokusho, and I was hoping to find some decent inexpensive cards (Read: Not more than 2 dollars.) to be able to utilize them properly.

Attrition? Bloodflow Connoisseur, Bloodthrone Vampire? Disciple of Grizzly? Black has a ton of 'sac a creature' costs, often on pretty cheap cards. If you're just looking to make sure you can sac creatures and don't care about the benefits then Bloodthrone Vampire, Bloodflow Connoisseur and Devouring Swarm are great. Their benefits are small but they can be used at will without any other costs, which means fewer 'shields down' moments. And they're very, very cheap (being all commons). If you want some benefit then Attrition lets you kill other creatures for about a buck, and Disciple of Bolas provides a nice 1-time benefit for the same price.

Those are just the ones I can think of, I'm sure there are a ton of great options out there that others might have but thought I'd get them out of the way.

[Sith_Happens]

Viscera Seer and Carrion Feeder are both 1-drops with repeatable sac abilities.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Originally Posted by Mystic Muse

What are some good white, black or red cards that will allow me to sacrifice creatures easily? I've got a R/B/W Commander deck I'm building with Yosei and Kokusho, and I was hoping to find some decent inexpensive cards (Read: Not more than 2 dollars.) to be able to utilize them properly.

Disciple of Griselbrand is one that I know of that's pretty good, and, you can use it repeatedly.

[C'nor]

If you just need something to sacrifice, rather than something with abilities that activate when you do so, Reassembling Skeleton might be good, and it shouldn't be that much, seeing as it's only Uncommon.

[Mystic Muse]

Originally Posted by C'nor

If you just need something to sacrifice, rather than something with abilities that activate when you do so, Reassembling Skeleton might be good, and it shouldn't be that much, seeing as it's only Uncommon.

I'm specifically looking for things to sacrifice Kokusho and/or Yosei to activate their abilities. The tips I've received so far have been good, thanks.

[Mindfreak]

Originally Posted by Mystic Muse

What are some good white, black or red cards that will allow me to sacrifice creatures easily? I've got a R/B/W Commander deck I'm building with Yosei and Kokusho, and I was hoping to find some decent inexpensive cards (Read: Not more than 2 dollars.) to be able to utilize them properly.

You could use Altar's Reap. Sacrifice a creature, draw two cards.
Useful, extremely cheap, gets you two extra cards.

[Forrestfire]

Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar are probably the sac engines for something like that.



Also, I was bored and made this: Don't judge me it as a long bus ride XD

Spoiler

Give up and Sideboard (parody of Fort Minor's "Remember the Name")

-------------

This is ten percent search,
Twenty percent draw
Fifteen percent comboing before the turn's up
Five percent counter, fifty percent storm
And a hundred percent reason to just give up and sideboard

Blue! It doesn't need the creatures to win
It just wants to cast spells, whether they're search or they're dig
And it feels so OP, to have a hand that you've sculpted
In spite of the fact that some players still try to play through em

But stop em, blue's got counters.
The card draw is our salary
The stack is our reality, and your stuff's not on it
Playing removal—making sure the field stays blank
That means when you're out of cards, I start comboing off!

What are creatures anyway?
You never seem to land them.
Unconcerned about your plays but still leaving you outta luck
Counter all the spells you casted, in spite of the fact
That you could see how much mana I've got untapped.

Winning it with counters now, while the combo collects
Even with your creatures you can't stop what comes next
I'm only focused on my spells, because the combo's beyond reach
And now it all unfolds, my whole hand in one turn

This is twenty percent mana
Eighty percent dig
And a hundred percent storm count, cus I'm casting all my spells
Who would have ever thought that I could combo so fast
And you can't disrupt it, may as well just scoop it up

I've got High Tide and and Palinchron, stormin it up
Playing my hand then refilling it before you can respond
I'm untapping my lands, then making even more mana
Taking a ten minute turn while you watch me just wreck ya

This is ten percent search,
Twenty percent draw
Fifteen percent comboing before the turn's up
Five percent counter, fifty percent storm
And a hundred percent reason to just give up and sideboard

They call it control, it's sick
And its spitting counters and bounce
Removes your stuff from the board
Found it in the top 8 a lot
It's annoying to play against
But it does get results
The deck players want to play as, and others hope it gets banned
60 cards in the making (100 for Commander)
Don't try to win against it without some heavy disruption
It's a monster to play, no need to play things on-turn
You won't believe the kind of threats this deck can burn

It's not your everyday deck in the game
Player knows how to work with what he's got, making his way to X/nought
He often gets a comment on his deck
People keep askin him
Was the deck on the 'net
Or did he homebrew this bastard?
No, it's tested and tweaked, to get the optimal game
He'll get the lockdown quicker than his opponent can believe
The deck and others like it are some of the best in eternal
Dedicated to what they do and a hundred percent lethal

Forget losing—There's nothing that can counter the Blue
It seems that nothing can touch it, and definitely not you
And I've seen it at work, in a god-hand situation
It's like a trainwreck for the other player—causes a ragequit
Before you even roll for play/draw, you know this deck will win
And those cards in the sideboard?
They're just counters
For everything he's not seen

This is ten percent search,
Twenty percent draw
Fifteen percent comboing before the turn's up
Five percent counter, fifty percent storm
And a hundred percent reason to just give up and sideboard

This is ten percent search,
Twenty percent draw
Fifteen percent comboing before the turn's up
Five percent counter, fifty percent storm
And a hundred percent reason to just give up and sideboard

[LansXero]

Mirei the moaning well coupled with an adarkar valkyrie used to work well for me back in the day.

[Meta]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar are probably the sac engines for something like that.



Also, I was bored and made this: Don't judge me it as a long bus ride XD

Spoiler

Give up and Sideboard (parody of Fort Minor's "Remember the Name")

-------------

This is ten percent search,
Twenty percent draw
Fifteen percent comboing before the turn's up
Five percent counter, fifty percent storm
And a hundred percent reason to just give up and sideboard

Blue! It doesn't need the creatures to win
It just wants to cast spells, whether they're search or they're dig
And it feels so OP, to have a hand that you've sculpted
In spite of the fact that some players still try to play through em

But stop em, blue's got counters.
The card draw is our salary
The stack is our reality, and your stuff's not on it
Playing removal—making sure the field stays blank
That means when you're out of cards, I start comboing off!

What are creatures anyway?
You never seem to land them.
Unconcerned about your plays but still leaving you outta luck
Counter all the spells you casted, in spite of the fact
That you could see how much mana I've got untapped.

Winning it with counters now, while the combo collects
Even with your creatures you can't stop what comes next
I'm only focused on my spells, because the combo's beyond reach
And now it all unfolds, my whole hand in one turn

This is twenty percent mana
Eighty percent dig
And a hundred percent storm count, cus I'm casting all my spells
Who would have ever thought that I could combo so fast
And you can't disrupt it, may as well just scoop it up

I've got High Tide and and Palinchron, stormin it up
Playing my hand then refilling it before you can respond
I'm untapping my lands, then making even more mana
Taking a ten minute turn while you watch me just wreck ya

This is ten percent search,
Twenty percent draw
Fifteen percent comboing before the turn's up
Five percent counter, fifty percent storm
And a hundred percent reason to just give up and sideboard

They call it control, it's sick
And its spitting counters and bounce
Removes your stuff from the board
Found it in the top 8 a lot
It's annoying to play against
But it does get results
The deck players want to play as, and others hope it gets banned
60 cards in the making (100 for Commander)
Don't try to win against it without some heavy disruption
It's a monster to play, no need to play things on-turn
You won't believe the kind of threats this deck can burn

It's not your everyday deck in the game
Player knows how to work with what he's got, making his way to X/nought
He often gets a comment on his deck
People keep askin him
Was the deck on the 'net
Or did he homebrew this bastard?
No, it's tested and tweaked, to get the optimal game
He'll get the lockdown quicker than his opponent can believe
The deck and others like it are some of the best in eternal
Dedicated to what they do and a hundred percent lethal

Forget losing—There's nothing that can counter the Blue
It seems that nothing can touch it, and definitely not you
And I've seen it at work, in a god-hand situation
It's like a trainwreck for the other player—causes a ragequit
Before you even roll for play/draw, you know this deck will win
And those cards in the sideboard?
They're just counters
For everything he's not seen

This is ten percent search,
Twenty percent draw
Fifteen percent comboing before the turn's up
Five percent counter, fifty percent storm
And a hundred percent reason to just give up and sideboard

This is ten percent search,
Twenty percent draw
Fifteen percent comboing before the turn's up
Five percent counter, fifty percent storm
And a hundred percent reason to just give up and sideboard

Would you like fries with those internets?

[Mindfreak]

So I've decided to drop Selesnya Populate and go into Green/Black Zombies.

Spoiler

-Creatures-
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Dreg Mangler
4 Slitherhead
2 Trestle Troll
2 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord

-Instants-
2 Golgari Charm
4 Tragic Slip

-Sorceries-
4 Ghoulcaller's Chant
2 Appetite for Brains

-Enchantments-
4 Rancor

-Land-
4 Woodland Cemetary
4 Woodland Cemetary
6 Swamp
6 Forest

-Sideboard-
2 Golgari Charm
2 Appetite for Brains
4 Plummet
2 Trestle Troll
4 Cremate
1 Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord

Any suggestions, anyone? I need a better way to take out Sublimes, Restorations, and other fliers...they really take out my deck.