Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof - Page 5

The Extinguisher · 07-10-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Is this like how if someone generates a million tokens and someone else resolves Scrambleverse, the game basically goes to time because they have to somehow randomly determine who gains control of each token?

The 4 Horsemen isn't banned, you just can't feasibly win a tournament with it. You will accumulate too many Slow Play warnings to win the tournament.

If every token is the same, couldn't you just do up a distribution and randomize it that way? Would be easier than doing a flip for each permanent.

I mean, you still have to use a computer, but at least it's faster.

Meta · 07-10-2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elagune

Kind of! I'll be using some Phyrexian commons until they rotate out, but for the most part I'm just trying to build a deck that wouldn't completely fall apart the moment the rotation happens.

As long as it's backed up by other more direct counters, you might really enjoy Redirect. It will often be dead against very pure control decks and sucks against board wipes (but ideally they're losing cards in that too) but against 'balanced' it can often be pretty nasty. I admit it's more fun that strictly practical though.

If you're running Memory Adept, Jace's Phantasm might have a home. You can always thought scour your opponent in a pinch too.

raymundo · 07-10-2012, 03:41 PM

Is somebody interested in playing via Cockatrice or is there some kind of playgroup already? I'd like to test my deck with some decent people ;)

tgva8889 · 07-10-2012, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9mm

elixir is there because the deck is really reliant at heading off threats with duress, dispise, and my counter spells and I own no snap-casters, so exlir becomes "pay 3, get your spells back." I really wish I had space for ways to just go digging through my graveyard to get spells, but they're pretty much constantly out of my price range. Card draw would be nice, but well, I have really only 6 open slots and your land advice eats 4. would you feel cutting all bounce for removal + murder of crows work?

Unsummon > Vapor snag because I own unsummon, otherwise I agree.

But you don't actually get them back. You just shuffle them into your deck, enabling you to possibly draw them again. Instead, you could just be playing more spells. I mean, unless you're plan is just to answer all of their cards and eventually deck them. But since you're playing creatures, I thought your plan was to attack them to death.

I suggested a Common that will let you get spells you want out of your graveyard: Archaeomancer.

I would just straight cut some combination of 4 cards from Duress and Despise. They're really weak late-game and you don't really have time to cast that many early. They're not universally useful and you don't actually want them in most matches.

You have to cut something for lands, because you just don't have enough to cast your spells in any reasonable time period. You have no cantrips to draw more lands and no other cards that help you get mana.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Really? I mean, High Tide has a fairly lengthy turn when it goes off, and that sometimes wins tournaments.

The actual act of performing the combo is an infinitely looping action that you must perform over and over. Since the action doesn't advance the game state every time and you are going to perform it an indefinite number of times (because of the way the combo works, you can need to perform it anywhere between 10 and infinity times), performing the action is Slow Play and can/will result in a warning for Slow Play at any competitive-RL event.

High Tide doesn't require repeating an infinitely looping action, so unless you spend too much time thinking between actions on your combo turn, you probably aren't going to get very many Slow Play warnings playing it.

It's specifically that the combo requires an infinitely looping action and can't be short-cut that makes it prone to Slow Play warnings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Extinguisher

If every token is the same, couldn't you just do up a distribution and randomize it that way? Would be easier than doing a flip for each permanent.

I mean, you still have to use a computer, but at least it's faster.

I mean, if you're going to carry around a computer and have the required knowledge, sure, I guess? I don't have the required knowledge to confirm or deny this.

I'm pretty sure you can't have a computer on the table during a tournament match, though. Not sure how you'd get this to work. You'd probably have to call a judge to resolve the Scrambleverse, in any case.

Lord Seth · 07-10-2012, 10:59 PM

Are there any Instants or Sorceries in Standard that do something like Oblivion Ring? I ask this because I want permanent removal in my UW Delver deck, but I'd prefer an Instant or Sorcery for better Delver synergy. The only thing I can think of is Banishing Stroke, though I'm not sure if that'd be a better choice due to it being less versatile in when you can use it.

IcemanJRC · 07-10-2012, 11:28 PM

I assure you if there was it would be in use. O-Ring is the best O-Ring around, sorry.

Meta · 07-10-2012, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Are there any Instants or Sorceries in Standard that do something like Oblivion Ring? I ask this because I want permanent removal in my UW Delver deck, but I'd prefer an Instant or Sorcery for better Delver synergy. The only thing I can think of is Banishing Stroke, though I'm not sure if that'd be a better choice due to it being less versatile in when you can use it.

I can't think of anything better than O-Ring.

Celestial Purge requires colors, Disperse just returns to hand.. yea the others seem even worse.

tgva8889 · 07-11-2012, 12:14 AM

I wouldn't main deck or sideboard O-ring in UW Delver anyways. Is an effect that can answer Creatures, Artifacts, AND Enchantments necessary?

Lord Seth · 07-11-2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

I wouldn't main deck or sideboard O-ring in UW Delver anyways. Is an effect that can answer Creatures, Artifacts, AND Enchantments necessary?

I think so; otherwise you really don't have much of a way to deal with some things. Oh, and Oblivion Ring can hit Planeswalkers also.

Here's my deck, for the record:

Lands: 20
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Plains
7 Island
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Moorland Haunt

Creatures: 16
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Restoration Angel

Spells: 20
3 Mana Leak
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Vapor Snag
2 Gut Shot
2 Faith's Shield
1 Mutagenic Growth

Artifacts/Enchantments: 4
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard: 15
2 Mental Misstep
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Celestial Purge
1 Dismember
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mana Leak

It's performed pretty well so far. I've been thinking of replacing the Mana Leak in the sideboard with a Dissipate...thoughts?

tgva8889 · 07-11-2012, 01:06 PM

I mean, the general answer to Planeswalkers is to just go kill them. Reclamation Angel, for example, is an awesome answer to many Planeswalkers, as is Geist of St. Traft.

This is generally the answer that Delver employs; make powerful threats, kill them before they have a chance to make any threats of their own. Most decks don't end up playing Oblivion Rings main deck because, as you've mentioned, they're not Instants or Sorceries (which weakens Snapcaster and Delver which are, let's be honest, the reason you're playing this deck anyways) and the things you're answering with it either don't need to be answered or can be answered with a good offense. That really is the power of UW Delver: sometimes you just kill them and they have the wrong answers.

Your deck reminds me of Yuuya Watanbe's deck that won in GP Manilla.

IthilanorStPete · 07-11-2012, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

That really is the power of UW Delver: sometimes you just kill them and they have the wrong answers.

Or as Jamie Wakefield put it, "There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers." (I believe it was Wakefield; please correct me if I'm wrong)

tgva8889 · 07-11-2012, 01:35 PM

I prefer to refer to that statement as coming from the wisdom of Sean Plott, aka Day[9], who taught me that the best counter for an unknown strategy is to just go ******* kill them.

Ninjaman · 07-11-2012, 01:57 PM

I was playing draft at my local store today. I won one of the battles after my opponent had played Nicol Bolas.

Sith_Happens · 07-11-2012, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

I was playing draft at my local store today. I won one of the battles after my opponent had played Nicol Bolas.

Please tell me you Oblivion Ringed him. That would be hilarious.

tgva8889 · 07-11-2012, 02:50 PM

What would be even more hilarious is if he somehow gained control of him.

No, no, wait. If he played his own Nicol Bolas, then proceeded to win the game shortly thereafter once his opponent's bomb was down.

But yes, Oblivion Ring sounds like something that would happen. I'd be super impressed if you attacked Nicol Bolas to death, though.

Cogwheel · 07-11-2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

What would be even more hilarious is if he somehow gained control of him.

No, no, wait. If he played his own Nicol Bolas, then proceeded to win the game shortly thereafter once his opponent's bomb was down.

But yes, Oblivion Ring sounds like something that would happen. I'd be super impressed if you attacked Nicol Bolas to death, though.

Alternatively, he forced Vindicate into M13 and Standard through sheer force of will and used it to blow up Bolas.

tgva8889 · 07-11-2012, 03:14 PM

That would be epic.

They should reprint Vindicate in a product of some kind. There needs to be more copies of that card going around, even if it's not legal in Standard.

Ninjaman · 07-11-2012, 03:58 PM

No nothing that cool.
Here is what happened:
He was at 3 i had Rhox faithmender with divine favor and a vile rebirth token with dark favor.
He played bolas stole my faithmender
End of turn i played another vile rebirth
On my turn i played a dark favor on the other token then swung with both.

Giegue · 07-11-2012, 03:59 PM

Well, we ARE going to get return to Ravnica soon, so Vindicate may see reprint there, though if it does I fully expect it to be mythic. Also, since we where on the topic of Nicol Bolas, I may as well post a casual FNM deck I've been experimenting with that makes use of the walker....just a word of warning this deck is VERY experimental and, well, just plain ODD...

Spoiler

Yes. I did it. I made a deck that runs both Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas AND Nicol Bolas, Plansewalker. It's not great, and Bolas himself adds almost nothing to the deck beyond flavor and his mere presence but this deck is not meant to be a tier 1, tourney smashing machine. It's just a casual deck to occasionally have fun with at FNM. Too bad it's going to rotate soon. Oh well. Just thought I'd post it up because it's, well....ODD.

Giegue · 07-11-2012, 04:00 PM

Browser Error, please deleat.

Binks · 07-11-2012, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

then swung with both.

Why didn't he block with the faithmender? Even if the other token got through for 5 lifelink isn't a triggered ability anymore, so he'd be at 2 post-block (3 starting, -5 from one token, +2 doubled to 4 from rhox's lifelink). I've got to be missing something, and you've got me curious now.

Here's a question for the more tournament oriented out there. I went to the pre-release, had a good time (though my first try at a deck was terrible. I was never so glad for the 'can sideboard at anytime' rule for pre-releases as when I completely changed my deck between round 1 and round 2), but left with some curiosity.

There were around 60-70 people there, and there were prizes for top 13 (might have been 14, but no more than that) as well as a cut to the top 8. I went 2-1 for matches (0-2, then 2-0 and 2-0) but didn't make it to any of the prize levels. Is it normal to have almost a quarter of the tournament participants do better than that? I know there could have been IDs for some 2-0-1's, and there were a larger than normal number of draws due to time I witnessed, but it seemed strange to me at the time. I don't go to many tournaments, so maybe this is normal and I've never realized it before (since I almost never do that well, usually 1-2 or 2-1 with 0-2, 2-1, 2-1 or the like), but it just made me go

.

Zombimode · 07-11-2012, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binks

There were around 60-70 people there, and there were prizes for top 13 (might have been 14, but no more than that) as well as a cut to the top 8. I went 2-1 for matches (0-2, then 2-0 and 2-0) but didn't make it to any of the prize levels. Is it normal to have almost a quarter of the tournament participants do better than that? I know there could have been IDs for some 2-0-1's, and there were a larger than normal number of draws due to time I witnessed, but it seemed strange to me at the time. I don't go to many tournaments, so maybe this is normal and I've never realized it before (since I almost never do that well, usually 1-2 or 2-1 with 0-2, 2-1, 2-1 or the like), but it just made me go

.

I'm confused. There were 60-70 players and only 3 rounds? The recommended number of matches is 6. What happened?

9mm · 07-11-2012, 06:12 PM

when does M12 rotate out again, keep seeing m13 rooms with m12 cards...

IthilanorStPete · 07-11-2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9mm

when does M12 rotate out again, keep seeing m13 rooms with m12 cards...

When Return to Ravnica comes out this fall. Scars of Mirrodin, Mirrodin Besieged, and New Phyrexia will also be rotating out.

IcemanJRC · 07-11-2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Binks

Why didn't he block with the faithmender? Even if the other token got through for 5 lifelink isn't a triggered ability anymore, so he'd be at 2 post-block (3 starting, -5 from one token, +2 doubled to 4 from rhox's lifelink). I've got to be missing something, and you've got me curious now.

Here's a question for the more tournament oriented out there. I went to the pre-release, had a good time (though my first try at a deck was terrible. I was never so glad for the 'can sideboard at anytime' rule for pre-releases as when I completely changed my deck between round 1 and round 2), but left with some curiosity.

There were around 60-70 people there, and there were prizes for top 13 (might have been 14, but no more than that) as well as a cut to the top 8. I went 2-1 for matches (0-2, then 2-0 and 2-0) but didn't make it to any of the prize levels. Is it normal to have almost a quarter of the tournament participants do better than that? I know there could have been IDs for some 2-0-1's, and there were a larger than normal number of draws due to time I witnessed, but it seemed strange to me at the time. I don't go to many tournaments, so maybe this is normal and I've never realized it before (since I almost never do that well, usually 1-2 or 2-1 with 0-2, 2-1, 2-1 or the like), but it just made me go

.

I agree with Zombimode. There is a problem if you had that many people and so few rounds.

Gauntlet · 07-11-2012, 08:28 PM

Re:tournament rankings:
0-2, 2-1, 2-1 should be rated higher than 0-2, 2-0, 2-0, I believe.This is because the tie breakers after points on OGW% (Opponent's Games Won) which go up if you 2-1'd them. I'mnot entirely certain on that though, but it might be why you didn't get anything.

At our prerelease, the store organises things so prizes are more evenly spread. I believe first place usually gets ~9 packs, but everyone gets at least one (we had about 100 people, and six rounds). The evening prerelease had fixed support, so everyone got two boosters there regardless of how well they did. Everyone was aware of that beforehand though, so no-one was complaining.

As for my current decks, I am very tempted to build UR aggro now. This is mainly because I want to use the Hellriders that I am planning on cutting from my Pod deck once it becomes Naya Aggro (still trying to trade for the two Huntmasters I still need), and Hellrider + Tandem Lookout is a combo I really really want to try.

Binks · 07-11-2012, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gauntlet

Re:tournament rankings:
0-2, 2-1, 2-1 should be rated higher than 0-2, 2-0, 2-0, I believe.This is because the tie breakers after points on OGW% (Opponent's Games Won) which go up if you 2-1'd them. I'mnot entirely certain on that though, but it might be why you didn't get anything.

That makes sense, good to know.

I thought all tournaments (or at least casual tournaments) were 3 rounds then top 8, at least that's how it has always been at my FLGS. More than 3 rounds would take forever.

IthilanorStPete · 07-11-2012, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gauntlet

Re:tournament rankings:
0-2, 2-1, 2-1 should be rated higher than 0-2, 2-0, 2-0, I believe.This is because the tie breakers after points on OGW% (Opponent's Games Won) which go up if you 2-1'd them. I'mnot entirely certain on that though, but it might be why you didn't get anything.

OMW% is the first tiebreaker, though. As several people have said, 3 rounds is nowhere near enough for that large of a group.

Also, Hellrider+Tandem Lookout is nasty. I approve.

IcemanJRC · 07-11-2012, 10:19 PM

Technically it's the Tournament Organizers discretion I believe. But when you only do three rounds you have things like what happened to you, totally reasonable records getting shafted because of the sheer number of people who placed similarly. I almost always play the appropriate number of rounds. Actually that's how I top 8'd the M12 Prerelease, we had something like 6 or 7 rounds and started at midnight, most people left. It was kinda amusing.

IthilanorStPete · 07-11-2012, 10:29 PM

3 rounds is the minimum to be sanctioned; otherwise, it's at the TO's discretion, although the MTR recommends more rounds based on the number of players. If you want to know, the formula is ceiling (log base 2 (number of players))