Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof

[Lord Seth]

Naturally the early previews tell me nothing about what I care about most, whether the shocklands and/or Dark Confidant will be reprinted.

[tgva8889]

Pretty sure Dark Confidant shouldn't be reprinted, as the card is probably too good for Standard. But maybe they'll try it. It's really not the kind of card I want to see in a format where everyone can play whatever colors they want and all the cards have lower converted mana costs because they have more different colors of mana symbols than most, but I suppose it might not be that bad.

[9mm]

got bored, made deck

Spoiler

4 Door to Nothingness
4 Abundant Growth
4 Faithless Looting
4 Fog Bank
4 Farseek
4 Wild Guess
4 Liliana's Shade
4 Fog
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
3 Island
4 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Oblivion Ring

so what do I cut for MOAR RAMP?

[tgva8889]

Liliana's Shade is an awful ramp spell (in that it doesn't actually ramp at all). You probably want to play a different one if this is your plan. Gem of Becoming also seems like an obvious inclusion; fixing for 3 colors at once seems awesome.

Wild Guess is pretty bad in this 5-color deck. I feel like Amass the Components would do what you want better, though even Divination seems like it would be far superior to a RR spell that doesn't net you cards.

You also probably want to adjust your land counts and match up your numbers. You again don't have enough lands in your deck for me to reasonably expect you'll cast anything; 19 lands is just not enough in a deck that needs to reach 10 lands to win.

[9mm]

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Liliana's Shade is an awful ramp spell (in that it doesn't actually ramp at all). You probably want to play a different one if this is your plan. Gem of Becoming also seems like an obvious inclusion; fixing for 3 colors at once seems awesome.

Wild Guess is pretty bad in this 5-color deck. I feel like Amass the Components would do what you want better, though even Divination seems like it would be far superior to a RR spell that doesn't net you cards.

You also probably want to adjust your land counts and match up your numbers. You again don't have enough lands in your deck for me to reasonably expect you'll cast anything; 19 lands is just not enough in a deck that needs to reach 10 lands to win.

Ironically land drought has been my least common problem. Though I definitely agree with -shade +gem (I forgot gem existed o_0). Guess has been an awesome card filter but I'll try amass, though that throws alot of filter and draw late into the game when I rather just sit with mana open for fogs.

[tgva8889]

I'm also not sure about your Garruk as your specific Planeswalker of choice, though I guess among the Standard-legal ones he's probably the best. The triple-green cost is a bit questionable.

[9mm]

Originally Posted by tgva8889

I'm also not sure about your Garruk as your specific Planeswalker of choice, though I guess among the Standard-legal ones he's probably the best. The triple-green cost is a bit questionable.

I hate that tripple green cost, but constant blockers, draw, and an alternate win condition? YES PLEASE. Though I suppose laboratory maniac could work too.

[Lord Seth]

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Pretty sure Dark Confidant shouldn't be reprinted, as the card is probably too good for Standard.

I don't know. It obviously didn't break Standard during its original printing. And Wizards of the Coast has claimed that they will reprint Modern staples. And right now I believe the most expensive cards in that format are Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and the shocklands (in that order). Considering Dark Confidant was originally printed in Ravnica, it's hard to see what would be a better time. Though it's possible they may want to space out the reprints...

Real question is when/how Tarmogoyf is going to be reprinted. Probably not in Return to Ravnica though.

[tgva8889]

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I don't know. It obviously didn't break Standard during its original printing. And Wizards of the Coast has claimed that they will reprint Modern staples. And right now I believe the most expensive cards in that format are Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and the shocklands (in that order). Considering Dark Confidant was originally printed in Ravnica, it's hard to see what would be a better time. Though it's possible they may want to space out the reprints...

Real question is when/how Tarmogoyf is going to be reprinted. Probably not in Return to Ravnica though.

All I know is a Standard environment with Snapcaster Mage and Dark Confidant doesn't sound like a fun Standard environment.

[Sith_Happens]

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I don't know. It obviously didn't break Standard during its original printing. And Wizards of the Coast has claimed that they will reprint Modern staples. And right now I believe the most expensive cards in that format are Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and the shocklands (in that order). Considering Dark Confidant was originally printed in Ravnica, it's hard to see what would be a better time. Though it's possible they may want to space out the reprints...

I'm just mad that I didn't buy a playset five years ago after my cousin did and we quickly learned just how good it is (especially with Sensei's Divining Top, and despite the fact that whenever he didn't get a Top back then he seemed to almost invariably pull a Kokusho with Confidant).

Real question is when/how Tarmogoyf is going to be reprinted. Probably not in Return to Ravnica though.

My guess is that it'll be in something other than an expansion set, so as to not end up in Standard. Either that, or it will be a mythic and therefore barely go down in price at all.

[9mm]

when it comes to modern some staples will probably just not get re-printed. I mean where in a standard format where giant growth isn't legal, and giant spider is about to rotate. I see goyf and dark confidant being two to bite the dust, or replaced with less insane versions.

[IthilanorStPete]

Originally Posted by 9mm

when it comes to modern some staples will probably just not get re-printed. I mean where in a standard format where giant growth isn't legal, and giant spider is about to rotate. I see goyf and dark confidant being two to bite the dust, or replaced with less insane versions.

The thing is, Modern doesn't rotate, it's technically an Eternal format. Goyf and Bob are never going to rotate out or go away, so there'll be always be demand for them...and a high price tag will continue to raise the entry barrier to Modern.

[Sith_Happens]

Originally Posted by 9mm

when it comes to modern some staples will probably just not get re-printed. I mean where in a standard format where giant growth isn't legal, and giant spider is about to rotate. I see goyf and dark confidant being two to bite the dust, or replaced with less insane versions.

There are ways to reprint a card that don't make it Standard legal. Just saying.

[Penguinizer]

Originally Posted by Sith_Happens

There are ways to reprint a card that don't make it Standard legal. Just saying.

You either print it in a From the Vault set which in no way solves the problem since the box set will be rare and have a hiked up price or in a pre built deck (like commander) which means the deck will be sold for well over MSRP (like what happened with Scavenging Ooze.

At best it means the cards price will equalize to the MSRP of the product and it'll still be expensive.

[Lord Seth]

Originally Posted by Sith_Happens

My guess is that it'll be in something other than an expansion set, so as to not end up in Standard.

Why?

No, seriously, what's wrong with Tarmogoyf entering Standard? And before you say "it's too powerful!" I'd like to point out as far as I can tell it didn't break the format back when it was originally printed (remember, it was Standard legal in the Time Spiral block!), and creatures are generally more powerful now meaning it'd stand out even less.

It's kind of like how at one point Force of Nature was probably considered really good, but nowadays is mediocre compared with cards like Terra Stomper. Or how Mind Twist was once considered so broken it was actually banned in Vintage, but now is unrestricted and barely sees any play.

Originally Posted by 9mm

when it comes to modern some staples will probably just not get re-printed. I mean where in a standard format where giant growth isn't legal, and giant spider is about to rotate. I see goyf and dark confidant being two to bite the dust, or replaced with less insane versions.

Uh...huh? Trying to replace them with "less insane" versions (and I wouldn't call them insane anyway, they're not that good) won't change a thing, people will keep playing with the originals. You'd have to print something better to discourage people from playing with them.

[Penguinizer]

Not to mention they already did a less insane Dark Confidant in Dark Tutelage. It was unplayably bad. You can't really change much about Dark Confidant without making it horrible, it's a case of everything slotting together right. Not to mention it's considered fairly niche these days.

[Meta]

Originally Posted by Penguinizer

Not to mention they already did a less insane Dark Confidant in Dark Tutelage. It was unplayably bad. You can't really change much about Dark Confidant without making it horrible, it's a case of everything slotting together right. Not to mention it's considered fairly niche these days.

Phyrexian Arena seems similar and at a good power level. It's like you took Bob and Blossom and fused them together!

My experience in modern has shown bob to be fairly mainstream, though. GP top 8s would agree on the competitiveness angle, and if the deck has a low curve and is in black, confidant probably makes it better. Heck, burn splashing for him and bump in the night was all the rage.

[tgva8889]

I don't really have a problem with them reprinting Tarmogoyf. Only interesting things could happen if they do that. As long as they don't also reprint the Fetchlands and Tribal and Seals, we'll be fine. Goyf was good in Standard, but I don't think it was ever too good. I mean, you did still play 3/4s for 2 because everything was worse then, but that isn't that...well, okay, it still is kind of ridiculous but it's not gamebreaking. Probably.

I don't think Dark Confidant and Snapcaster Mage being in the same Standard format would be fun. They both work well with similar cards (cheap Instants and Sorceries) and both generate card advantage. That deck sounds like a nightmare aggro-control deck, again, and I just don't think that would be fun. I'd like the top deck to not remind me of the last 3 Standard seasons if possible.

[Penguinizer]

Originally Posted by Meta

Phyrexian Arena seems similar and at a good power level. It's like you took Bob and Blossom and fused them together!

My experience in modern has shown bob to be fairly mainstream, though. GP top 8s would agree on the competitiveness angle, and if the deck has a low curve and is in black, confidant probably makes it better. Heck, burn splashing for him and bump in the night was all the rage.

The problem with Arena vs. Bob is that Bob is A: 2 mana, B: a 2/1.

It's both faster and has a self contained clock. The life loss is a nonissue. I don't know much about Modern though but in Legacy Bob is only really played in Team America (which isn't really a thing anymore) and maybe UB Faeries (which was thing for all of a really short time). It does see play in some of the more uncommon decks like Deadguy Ale and Team Italia but it's far from being the best card in the deck.

[Binks]

Just had to share, I got to live the dream yesterday. Long story short, Tamiyo's emblem plus Omniscience in play is AWESOME.

Longer Story

Spoiler

Two-Headed Giant, playing for fun before the two other members of our group arrive. I'm piloting my Blue EDH deck, Kami of the Cresent Moon draw-go because I've just put in a bunch of new cards, including Tamiyo and Omniscience. My teammate is piloting his Green Spider ramp deck. Opponents have a G/R allies deck that's been underperforming all night and a W/R metalcraft deck that's notorious within our group for being OP for the decks we play (my blue deck also has the same reputation, so it's OP+Mid vs OP+Mid in terms of team deck balance).

First couple of turns I play a spellskite and sit back on a horde of counterspells. My EDH deck has only 5 counters (Negate, Scatter, Cancel, Rewind, Lay Bare). By turn 3 I'm holding all but Lay Bare. My teammate ramps to 8 mana on turn 5 (growth on turn 2, growth on turn 3, ranger's path [topdecked] on turn 4). Metalcraft opponent goes for a Darksteel plate on turn 3 but I've seen what his deck can do with indestructible creatures so I cancel it.

Turn 5 we untap, me at 5 lands (after drop), teammate at 8 (missed landdrop on turn 4 but pulled 4 from deck). Teammate plays a Caged Sun set to green. I look at my hand, look back at the board, look at my hand, and play Phyrexian Metamorph as a Caged Sun set to blue, leaving 1 island open (2 mana) to counter whatever they play. We pass, opponents do nothing big (ally that makes lands into creatures by tapping and no play from metalcraft who has a lot of red mana but only 1 plains, and plays a lot double and triple white cards).

Untap with 5 islands and a caged sun. Topdeck caged sun. Play it, set to blue. Islands tap for 3 (2 untapped). Teammate throws down 2 sentinel spiders. Pass.

Metalcraft deck gets his 7th land (plains) and goes for a Gisela. Rewind counters it and nets me 6 mana. Allies then goes for a scrapper which I scatter (don't want our caged suns getting blown up).

We untap and I topdeck Tamiyo. Play her and tap biggest threat (turntimber ranger). Ally plays a land and swings for 10.

Opponents have no big plays and pass. I take Tamiyo up to 6 on the ranger again, ally swings and is blocked by lethal but has the giant growth to win that fight (he has 2 titanics in hand for later, and topdecks another giant growth next time around, so we never were really worried about his spiders dying in a fight). W/R metalcraft goes for the sun titan on their turn and I'm countered out (negate in hand). Allies has no play so they pass to us after giving sun titan swiftfoot boots (but not swinging). Spiders naturalizes the boots on endstep.

Tamiyo goes to 7 and the titan is tapped. I play a consecrated sphinx, ally swings and we pass. I draw 4 on their turn. They had no big plays so we start the next turn. Tamiyo hits 8 and titan stays tapped. Tamiyo is joined by Jace (3 cost) who gives everyone a draw (and me 4 extra cards from opponents drawing). Spiders swing and we pass.

Opponents get some threats on the board, metalcraft lays down an elixer and another artifact (and I don't notice that this will give his knight pro-colors until after both resolve, whoops), allies gets a survivalist. Bizarrely the pro-colors knight doesn't swing at Tamiyo. Not sure why, could have been fearing a naturalize on one of the artifacts giving metalcraft.

We untap, I pop Tamiyo for her ultimate and start digging. Divination (which goes back to my hand) shows me Myojin of Seeing Winds, the card I have never lost a game I played him in (of course being a 10 cost hardcast creature that might be more related to getting to 10 than him, but he's still good). I hardcast him, pop his counter for 19 card, and the first one is the one I'm digging for, Omniscience. I play it and that's basically game, I snag all the creatures (reins-ing an artifact so I can snag the pro-colors knight when he loses metalcraft) and they scoop.

Sorry. I normally wouldn't brag about a win (especially not in casual with my second most busted deck) but getting Tamiyo+Omniscience the first time they're in that deck was too awesome not to share.

[Meta]

Originally Posted by Penguinizer

The problem with Arena vs. Bob is that Bob is A: 2 mana, B: a 2/1.

It's both faster and has a self contained clock. The life loss is a nonissue. I don't know much about Modern though but in Legacy Bob is only really played in Team America (which isn't really a thing anymore) and maybe UB Faeries (which was thing for all of a really short time). It does see play in some of the more uncommon decks like Deadguy Ale and Team Italia but it's far from being the best card in the deck.

I'm not saying Arena is as good as Bob just that it's similar and at a good power level. It's certainly playable in a Standard-esque environment or filling in for bob in any casual deck, being more consistent and harder to remove.

I've seen him more in modern for sure, but I think he does pop up in legacy too as you said. All in all he has seen more tourney play than 90% of magic cards and I'd guess Arena saw a smaller but non-zero amount in its day. I just think it's not as unlikely as you to say that a new, well designed Spike card similar but different to Bob will make an appearance at some point.

[Sith_Happens]

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Why?

No, seriously, what's wrong with Tarmogoyf entering Standard? And before you say "it's too powerful!" I'd like to point out as far as I can tell it didn't break the format back when it was originally printed (remember, it was Standard legal in the Time Spiral block!), and creatures are generally more powerful now meaning it'd stand out even less.

I never said I had a problem with the idea of Goyf in Standard again (especially since I don't actually play Standard). It's just that IIRC it's been a little over three years since they printed any comparatively-sized CMC=<3 creatures that you don't have to build around to make that fat in the first place, so Goyf would be kind of out-of-place right now. Of course, that could easily change starting in October.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm looking for some advice on how to build a new deck. Since M13 came out, I've been caught on the idea of doing a Grixis Control/Superfriends style deck (The Legion of Doom!) to take advantage of the re-issuing of Nicol Bolas into Standard (and the fact I pulled him in my box). The deck is supposed to be themed around Nicol Bolas himself but that's...flexible. Really, so long as Nicol Bolas himself has a good place in there, I'm happy.

Here's what I'm looking at so Far:

Spoiler

Mana: I've got close to two-thirds of the mana-fixing that I need. Four Drowned Catacombs, 3 Dragonskull Summits, and a Sulfur Falls (Trying to get the remaining four still, obviously). Until I can finish rounding that out though, I figure Evolving Wilds fits just as well. I'd like to fit Reliquary Tower, Desolate Lighthouse, Hellion Crucible, and Nephalia Drownyard into that as well, but I already seem to be pushing things with just 12 basic lands. Is that workable? Oh, I was also going to slip in 2 Gem of Becoming (The one that lets you search for an Island, Swamp, and a Forest), and a Gilded Lotus (only have one right now but I'll try to get more). Anybody have advice on how to modify this? Aside from getting the duals from Mirrodin that'll be rotating out in October (I have neither the money nor the trade material to get a hold of those)?

Planeswalkers: So far, the only Planeswalker going into the deck is 2 copies of Nicol Bolas but, seeing as how eventually this will be a Legion, I'm going to need more that work well together. I do have Liliana of the Veil and a Liliana of the Dark Depths and both will be going into this deck eventually once it's further along...or can they function in it as it is? I'm going to trade for two more Tibalts (and a second copy of each Liliana), but which other planeswalkers are good choices? Would Jace or Tamiyo be a better pick? Tamiyo seems better for a control game while Jace can be a win condition all on his own, or trigger other win conditions (like Jace's Phantasm). What about Chandra the Firebrand? Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas could work but...see below.

Creatures: This has been a bit of a stumbling block for me, admittedly. So far, the only creatures I can think of that work well for this deck are Slumbering Dragon (Need more though, I've only got two), Augur and Disciple of Bolas (Feeding a Slumbering Dragon to the Disciple could result in huge card draw/life gain), and Mindclaw Shaman to give me a little more versatility in what I can play...but it relies on what my opponent has in their hand. I think Fog Banks would be a good inclusion for some early defense, both for me and my planeswalkers, but I'm struggling a bit for other creatures. An obvious one would be Phantasmal Image but...I don't have any of those. All I have in regard to copying creatures is a single Clone and 2 Cackling Counterpart (both of which I was going to add actually). I was also thinking about adding Delver of Secrets for early-pressure and making a tasty 3 card draw/3 life gain off Disciple if the situation should warrant it. Duty-Bound Dead could also be a good choice for early defense and helping an early Delver get through for more damage. Any other suggestions?

Sorceries, Instants, and Enchantments: This is...where I'm really hitting a stumbling block. I can't tell a worthwhile spell compared to a worthless one to save my life half the time, partly because I look more for what's amusing then what's good. I want to include a couple copies of Blood Reckoning, just to add another deterrent for actually attacking my planeswalkers or me (Slumbering Dragons and Blood Reckonings on the field makes attacking me a not so wise decision). I also plan on running three Magmaquakes as well since I'm making this deck partially in response to the abundance of planeswalker decks where I play (before anyone asks, I unfortunately do not have Bonfires to replace the quakes with, otherwise I would). Magmaquake in general just seems like a good answer for token decks, until they get out the spirit tokens anyway (which are the ones you really need to watch out for anyway). Cower in Fear also seems like a good response to token decks since it's one-sided and can be used at Instant speed, or is it too costly? How many counters should I run? I was thinking something like three Essence Scatters and two Negates, but I'm not sure if there's enough counters in there to be relevant. Maybe add in a couple Dissipates instead? This is the part I'm really looking for advice for. I was thinking of using Sign in Blood and Think Again for draw power and see what the forums thought of Wild Guess and Desperate Ravings/Faithless Looting in this particular deck. I do have Killing Waves and a Mutilate, should the Killing Waves be included? I'd add mutilate but considering there's only going to be like...four swamps, it seems a bit...under-whelming for what it may actually accomplish. Might Praetor's Grasp be a good choice? I can either remove threats entirely and possibly play them myself with my broad mana-base.

Artifacts: Here's the thing with getting my hands on some Tezerret, Agent of Bolas...I'm not sure how many artifacts I want to run and, if so, how which ones. Especially since I have almost two dozen cards (period) from the Mirrodin Block and M12 combined. I figure Tormond's Crypt is a no brainer (side-board or main, where I play there's a lot of graveyard shenanigans), I already mentioned the Gems of Becoming and Gilded Lotus, and I was thinking the Ring of Valkas and Evos Isle might be good inclusions. Valkas can add counters unto Slumbering Dragon, even if my enemy doesn't attack, while hexproof can keep any of my other creatures safe, even if it does cost two mana per instance of hexproof. There doesn't seem like enough to take advantage of Tezzeret's abilities there, nor any artifacts that I want to include so very badly. I was considering adding the Chronaton creature that can buff itself up just for another early threat as well...

The biggest thing is...I want this deck to still be relevant post rotation, so I'm trying very hard to include cards from M12 and Scars, despite how good some of them will be in this deck (Volt Charge, Tezzeret's Gambit for instance). Can anyone help?

[SynissterSyster]

You know what is a funny little card. It is Fog Bank. This little guy was part of the funnies game this past weekend for me. I ended up using him to block the mythic rare hydra that doubles in power every turn. Poor hydra got up to..like 96/96 or so. Foggy blocked him nice for many turns. I still lost the match and placed low in the sealed tourney but all in all was a lot of fun. Fog Bank is now part of my main deck with two of his brothers. Very worth the trade.

[Androgeus]

Originally Posted by SynissterSyster

You know what is a funny little card. It is Fog Bank. This little guy was part of the funnies game this past weekend for me. I ended up using him to block the mythic rare hydra that doubles in power every turn. Poor hydra got up to..like 96/96 or so. Foggy blocked him nice for many turns. I still lost the match and placed low in the sealed tourney but all in all was a lot of fun. Fog Bank is now part of my main deck with two of his brothers. Very worth the trade.

erm... doesn't the hydra have trample?

[Mystic Muse]

Originally Posted by Androgeus

erm... doesn't the hydra have trample?

Fog Bank prevents all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by it.

[IthilanorStPete]

Doesn't matter; the Hydra, when it has trample, can still assign 2 damage to Fog Bank and the rest to the defending player. The fact that the damage to Fog Bank will be prevented doesn't matter when assigning damage.

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by SynissterSyster

You know what is a funny little card. It is Fog Bank. This little guy was part of the funnies game this past weekend for me. I ended up using him to block the mythic rare hydra that doubles in power every turn. Poor hydra got up to..like 96/96 or so. Foggy blocked him nice for many turns. I still lost the match and placed low in the sealed tourney but all in all was a lot of fun. Fog Bank is now part of my main deck with two of his brothers. Very worth the trade.

Does that work when the hydra has trample?

[Mystic Muse]

Ah, my mistake. I think it would have worked with an older reading of the trample ability, but with the current wording, the damage being prevented doesn't matter, you're right.

[SynissterSyster]

Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete

Doesn't matter; the Hydra, when it has trample, can still assign 2 damage to Fog Bank and the rest to the defending player. The fact that the damage to Fog Bank will be prevented doesn't matter when assigning damage.

Wait wait wait. Is that possible? I am checking the rules now. Okay... I can be wrong on this. Since there is no way that any damage can be done to Fog Bank there is no damage that can be placed on a player. From my readings on it some damage has to be assigned to Fog Bank but since it has the ruling that prevents damage done by and to it then trample couldn't kick in. If I am wrong then sweet as I can tell my store.