Magic: The Gathering Thread XIV: Instant Annoying, Just Add Hexproof - Page 8

tgva8889 · 07-16-2012, 01:54 PM

No, Trample would have allowed your opponent to deal some damage (in the case described over 90 damage) directly to you.

While the damage is prevented, Trample doesn't care in terms of assigning damage. Once lethal damage is assigned, whether or not it would actually cause the blocking creature to die, any additional damage can be assigned to the defending player. Since Fog Bank has 2 toughness, any damage beyond the first 2 could be assigned to you.

SynissterSyster · 07-16-2012, 01:58 PM

Thank you all! I am still keeping Fog Bank in my deck just will now know that Trample will go through. So I would have lost that game by turn 4 instead of the lunacy of turn 8. Thanks again.

tgva8889 · 07-16-2012, 02:00 PM

It's still a pretty good card. You just might need some other tools to beat those gigantic trampling monsters.

@Callos: What kinds of suggestions are you looking for?

SynissterSyster · 07-16-2012, 02:08 PM

It was in a Sealed tourney so it was like his big card. So wish I had a Murder for it. Anywho thanks again.

Binks · 07-16-2012, 02:20 PM

It doesn't matter what effects the card has. Trample assigns what would be lethal, ignoring any protection effects, to the creature in question. Same reason the hydra can trample over a Mirran Crusader despite pro-green.

You can choose to assign all the hydra's damage to the fog bank...but there's no point to that, so in general the fog bank will only reduce the damage by 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comprehensive Rulebook 702.18b

The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt. The attacking creature’s controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case can’t assign any damage to the player or planeswalker it’s attacking.

Fog Bank's ability changes the amount of damage that will be actually dealt to it, so it's ignored for assigning trample damage. You have to assign 'lethal' (2) to the fog bank but the rest tramples over. There's even an example in the comp rules detailing something almost exactly like this situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comprehensive Rulebook 702.18b example 2

Example: A 6/6 green creature with trample is blocked by a 2/2 creature with protection from green. The attacking creature's controller must assign at least 2 damage to the blocker, even though that damage will be prevented by the blocker's protection ability. The attacking creature's controller can divide the rest of the damage as he or she chooses between the blocking creature and the defending player.

SynissterSyster · 07-16-2012, 02:48 PM

Thanks Binks. I saw that on the PDF after I posted. It is still all good. Just nice to know that the game shop isn't perfect.

arguskos · 07-16-2012, 02:57 PM

So, I have just finished up my Modern deck and wouldn't mind commentary. It's a bit off the beaten path but damn if it isn't entertaining to play.

GargaGeddon!

Spoiler

My question for the thread is this: has anyone actually played this deck (as or against)? I'm trying to figure out when to mulligan, when to play things, etc. It's a tricky deck to pilot and I'm not 100% sure I know what the hell I'm doing with it yet. Any help/suggestions/laughter?

Litewarior · 07-16-2012, 04:32 PM

This thread is about the legacy form of that deck, people do talk about the modern form of it too. More cascaders are probably a good idea, Here's a link to the gatherer database of all cards with cascade, look through that and figure out which ones you want.

IcemanJRC · 07-16-2012, 08:28 PM

This thread is for the modern version.

Callos_DeTerran · 07-16-2012, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

@Callos: What kinds of suggestions are you looking for?

I'm looking for advice on card choices. Usually I'm able to build a semi-competitive deck on my own, but for once I'd like to surprise the people in my playing environment on Game Day and bring a deck that stands a chance against their more competitive ones. So I'm coming to the forums from stage one (the deck list) rather then after I've already made a deck and grown fond of how it works.

Narkis · 07-17-2012, 06:54 AM

The new MTGO client is awesome. That is all.

Zombimode · 07-17-2012, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic Muse

Ah, my mistake. I think it would have worked with an older reading of the trample ability, but with the current wording, the damage being prevented doesn't matter, you're right.

Nope, Trample always only cared about lethal damage assignment. What happened after the damage was assigned (being prevented, redirected, doubled etc.) never concerned a trampler.
But it is a common mistake to assume otherwise. I did it too when I tried to block a Darksteel Colossus with an Tel-Jilad Outrider (3/1 protection from artifacts).

Edit: Ninjutsu'ed tenfold

tgva8889 · 07-17-2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran

I'm looking for advice on card choices. Usually I'm able to build a semi-competitive deck on my own, but for once I'd like to surprise the people in my playing environment on Game Day and bring a deck that stands a chance against their more competitive ones. So I'm coming to the forums from stage one (the deck list) rather then after I've already made a deck and grown fond of how it works.

Well, your deck is likely a control deck, just because few other strategies would work for a deck trying to cast Nicol Bolas. For that you would need to know the kinds of threats you expect to face, so you can have various tools that can deal with them.

Because Nicol Bolas himself can answer pretty much any large opposing permanent, the biggest threats you will have to worry about are small aggression and ways to answer Bolas himself. From Standard, here are the key threats I would be worried about in your deck:

Delver of Secrets
Geist of St. Traft
Restoration Angel
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Blade Splicer
Huntmaster of the Fells
Ghoulcrawler
Geralf's Messenger
Blood Artist
Strangleroot Geist
Lingering Souls

From there, now we choose the removal spells that can best be used to fight these cards. Immediately I know you will want 4 Pillar of Flame, because it is highly effective at killing a majority of this list. The remainder are either multiple creatures (Splicer, Huntmaster, Souls) or resilient to small, targeted removal (Geist, Angel). For dealing with multiple creatures, Barter in Blood is a decent option, as are Bonfire of the Damned and Blastphemous Act. Because of Lingering Souls, Magmaquake is much less desirable, though it could prove effective simply by being an Instant. Note that most of these cards are expensive mana-wise.

From there, you may want some other removal options. While Bolas is a superb weapon against larger creatures, you still want some other ways to beat them. Go For the Throat is perhaps the best as of lately, though Doom Blade does a fine rendition. Murder is the weakest simply because it costs 3 whereas most creatures cost less. You really need cheap answers, and Murder isn't that. Essence Scatter is also an option, though it is weakened by Cavern of Souls.

It so happens that I can already tell that Snapcaster Mage and Augur of Bolas will have great value in this deck. Augur provides a defensive body against many of the 2-power threats and also is highly likely to draw you into one of your removal spells. Snapcaster Mage lets you reuse spent Pillars of Flame, which is really his best use as Pillar is probably the all-star removal spell for you.

In terms of draw spells, the best options for you are (in order) Desperate Ravings, Think Twice, and Amass the Components. If you have Snapcaster Mages, cards like Sign in Blood, Wild Guess, and Faithless Looting go up in value (for different reasons, I might add) but if you don't, I think the other 3 are probably your best options. Wild Guess and Looting might work out even if you don't have Snapcaster, but I probably wouldn't play Sign in Blood in this deck without the value of flashing it back.

Since Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is the centerpiece of your deck, I wouldn't worry about running many other Planeswalkers. He will naturally be effective against a wide variety of opposing threats, large and small. I think if you wish to support him, though, the best options are Tamiyo and Karn. Karn is useful because he can put on a decent Nicol impression, answering a large threat and then taking over the game with his huge loyalty. Tamiyo, however, provides the most utility where you are likely to need it: against more aggressive decks. Her combination of high starting loyalty and an ability that basically pacifies a creature make her a good defensive measure against some of the aggressive decks.

That's just some theory to get you started. I'm sure some of my choices aren't necessarily the best, but they should push in a good general direction.

Callos_DeTerran · 07-17-2012, 10:39 AM

I haven't seen many Caverns at my place of play so far yet (most people don't play a ton of counters, I think I'm one of the only ones who runs two maindeck out of paranoia ((and mana fixing)) ), so Essence Scatter should still be worth it. If I do see them showing up, I can always replace the utility lands with Ghost Quarter which has other uses besides just blowing up Cavern.

Unfortunately I only have four Doomblades and 4 Murders (no Go for the Throats though) and only a single Dismember. Do you think it'd be better to replace the Murders with Victim of the Night and sideboard in the Murders if I see too many black vampires, werewolves, or zombies?

Unfortunately I just can't afford Snapcasters, the things are just too expensive for my very limited budget, but the Augurs I can definitely use. One of the reasons I want to use Mindclaw Shaman actually is because most players where I play will at least splash black to get some creature removal or naturally have some control in their hands, so being able to 'borrow' theirs can help to expand my options incredibly.

Anyway, with your advice, here's what I'm thinking deck-listwise...

Nicol Roll'd

Spoiler

How's that look? Not enough control? Suggestions on things to cut and to replace? Anything I need more of?

IcemanJRC · 07-17-2012, 01:09 PM

I'd say, since it's a control deck, -3 Dutybound Dead +3 lands, and you may consider switching out the Slumbering Dragons depending on how they play. They don't strike me as good enough. Also your mana looks a bit wonky, this article provides the basics that I use to craft a manabase. Nothing too complicated, usually works out fine.

I'd use:

1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
6 Mountain
6 Island
3 Swamp

tgva8889 · 07-17-2012, 01:51 PM

I would also, when possible, get a 3rd Nicol Bolas. He's the centerpiece; he better show is face often. Yes there's some risk of drawing too many early, but I think 3 is worth trying. Besides, come on, the fun part is putting him onto the battlefield most of the time anyways.

I would cut Blood Reckonings for Tamiyos when you get them. Blood Reckoning doesn't do too much.

Since you have it and it's legal now, I would cut a Victim of the Night for a Dismember, since Dismember is more flexible right now. It's possible that after the rotation, the Doom Blades and Victim of the Nights will want to be either Murders or Tribute to Hungers, depending on the metagame. Or maybe even something else entirely; after rotation I imagine you'll have many more tools to work with.

SynissterSyster · 07-17-2012, 03:16 PM

Here is an utterly stupid question. Is Nicol a near 100% game winner or just needs a lot of skill to play?

IthilanorStPete · 07-17-2012, 03:22 PM

Bolas will generally win the game for you if you can get him down and aren't dead that turn. The problem, and the skill factor, is in getting to that point.

tgva8889 · 07-17-2012, 04:11 PM

Bolas isn't the most skill-testing card ever, but (like most cards in Magic) there is some skill involved. He's much more of a sledgehammer than finely-crafted watch, to use an OotS-inspired analogy.

SynissterSyster · 07-17-2012, 04:18 PM

Ahhh okay. I saw a person (almost said pony...yeah to much on mind) play him at a sealed tourney and just rock the house. He got first.

Zombimode · 07-17-2012, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran

How's that look? Not enough control? Suggestions on things to cut and to replace? Anything I need more of?

Do you have Magic Workstation or Cockatrice or something similar? Those are great tools for testing and to see how a deck "feels". Good for testing starting hands, too.

I've build your deck according to your list in Workstation and ran in solitair mode against some other decks I happened to have prepared.

I used, in order, a Budget Tempered Steel, a casual Reanimator/Token.dec (Marrow-Gnawer token producer, main win condition is Mirror Entity) and a casual Naya creature deck thats a bit hard to describe (it is a highly interactive deck that tries as many things as possible with creatures; it has three pillars: (1) ETB-creatures, (2) creatures, that let me reuse the ETB-creatures (by bouncing them or putting them ontop of my libary), and (3) ramp).

Since using casual decks for Standard testing will not provide accurate results, I will summarize my general impressions:

- Against a fast and aggressive opponent I felt Nicol.dec could not build up its defense fast enough/it ran out of answers before the aggressor ran out of threats.
- Magmaquake can ruin the day of many a deck but its not the all-out answer like Bonfire. See the next point.
- I think the decks lacks a win condition. Some evasion-less power 2 creatures even supported by exalted did not prove to by decisive enough. Also considering that with the exception of the Fog Banks and Dragons non of Nicol creatures fly so the will by roasted by Magmaquake as well.
- Slumbering Dragons are great against token/weenie decks, but don't do much against fatties with evasion. They are also not reliable as a win condition.
- Blood Reckoning was situational useful at best. It shares the same weakness as the Dragon: against a single fatty with evasion (or an equipped Invisible Stalker, I guess) the cards does next to nothing.
- Augur of Bolas was awesome when he found something, but often enough he just whiffed.

Now some comments specific to the games I played and the decks I used (probably not too relevant):

Spoiler

All in all this decks needs some work. A good sideboard would probably a huge step forward since one of the weaknesses of Nicol Roll'd are the large number of situational useful cards that can become a liability. When you can just swap them for other cards better fit for the specific situation you can avoid this problem.
A more consistent win condition would also help.

Penguinizer · 07-17-2012, 08:31 PM

Finally got the bravery to go for another draft on Modo. Did better and went 2-1 in an Avacyn Restored draft swiss. I did manage to lucksack myself a good deck so that might have had something to do with it. I got myself a Bonfire of the Damned in the second pack so that paid for 2 more drafts (with a ticket or two left over).

Here's what I got. There are a few sketchy choices since that I had to put in to pretty much be filler.

Spoiler

I could have gone 3-0 but punted hard in round 2 game 1 (didn't notice Grave Exchange needed a creature in the grave so I couldn't use it until it was too late) and got screwed in the second game of round 2. The deck was pretty sick though.

I started out by first picking the Mist Raven and then getting the Undead Executioner in p1p2. I was planning to go UB until I windmill slam first picked Bonfire in p2p1 which meant I was basically oblicated. Overall, could have gone worse.

Callos_DeTerran · 07-17-2012, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcemanJRC

I'd say, since it's a control deck, -3 Dutybound Dead +3 lands, and you may consider switching out the Slumbering Dragons depending on how they play. They don't strike me as good enough. Also your mana looks a bit wonky, this article provides the basics that I use to craft a manabase. Nothing too complicated, usually works out fine.

I'd use:

1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
6 Mountain
6 Island
3 Swamp

Hmm...Yeah, I can swing that mana base easily enough but 25 lands seem like too much. Especially since I do have a few other sources of mana-fixing with the Gem of Becoming and Gilded Lotus to use...Come to think of it, I've never played a non-EDH deck that has run more then 24 lands period. And wouldn't I want more copies of Desolate Lighthouse and Ghost Quarter, to increase my chances of getting them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

I would also, when possible, get a 3rd Nicol Bolas. He's the centerpiece; he better show is face often. Yes there's some risk of drawing too many early, but I think 3 is worth trying. Besides, come on, the fun part is putting him onto the battlefield most of the time anyways.

I would cut Blood Reckonings for Tamiyos when you get them. Blood Reckoning doesn't do too much.

Since you have it and it's legal now, I would cut a Victim of the Night for a Dismember, since Dismember is more flexible right now. It's possible that after the rotation, the Doom Blades and Victim of the Nights will want to be either Murders or Tribute to Hungers, depending on the metagame. Or maybe even something else entirely; after rotation I imagine you'll have many more tools to work with.

Haha, yeah I realize I probably need a third Nicol Bolas, but I pulled one in the draft and my one friend is willing to trade me his so I only have two 'for sure' Nicol Bolas. If I can get another, that'd be awesome, but I need to find someone with him and willing to trade him first. Shouldn't be that hard though, most people just don't seem to have a place for him in their decks.

Blood Reckoning serves the same purpose as the one I want to use Slumbering Dragon for, providing a deterrent to attackers. If they're powering up a fat dragon and losing life with each attacker, it should give my opponent's second thoughts about ramming in on me turn after turn, especially token decks which are what I'm primarily worried about since I've had a lot of trouble with them in the past.

In either case, stick to the Doomblades and swap a Victim for Dismember? Fair enough!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgva8889

Bolas isn't the most skill-testing card ever, but (like most cards in Magic) there is some skill involved. He's much more of a sledgehammer than finely-crafted watch, to use an OotS-inspired analogy.

I do love that analogy and I do love my sledgehammers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombimode

Do you have Magic Workstation or Cockatrice or something similar? Those are great tools for testing and to see how a deck "feels". Good for testing starting hands, too.

I've build your deck according to your list in Workstation and ran in solitair mode against some other decks I happened to have prepared.

I used, in order, a Budget Tempered Steel, a casual Reanimator/Token.dec (Marrow-Gnawer token producer, main win condition is Mirror Entity) and a casual Naya creature deck thats a bit hard to describe (it is a highly interactive deck that tries as many things as possible with creatures; it has three pillars: (1) ETB-creatures, (2) creatures, that let me reuse the ETB-creatures (by bouncing them or putting them ontop of my libary), and (3) ramp).

Since using casual decks for Standard testing will not provide accurate results, I will summarize my general impressions:

- Against a fast and aggressive opponent I felt Nicol.dec could not build up its defense fast enough/it ran out of answers before the aggressor ran out of threats.
- Magmaquake can ruin the day of many a deck but its not the all-out answer like Bonfire. See the next point.
- I think the decks lacks a win condition. Some evasion-less power 2 creatures even supported by exalted did not prove to by decisive enough. Also considering that with the exception of the Fog Banks and Dragons non of Nicol creatures fly so the will by roasted by Magmaquake as well.
- Slumbering Dragons are great against token/weenie decks, but don't do much against fatties with evasion. They are also not reliable as a win condition.
- Blood Reckoning was situational useful at best. It shares the same weakness as the Dragon: against a single fatty with evasion (or an equipped Invisible Stalker, I guess) the cards does next to nothing.
- Augur of Bolas was awesome when he found something, but often enough he just whiffed.

Now some comments specific to the games I played and the decks I used (probably not too relevant):

Spoiler

All in all this decks needs some work. A good sideboard would probably a huge step forward since one of the weaknesses of Nicol Roll'd are the large number of situational useful cards that can become a liability. When you can just swap them for other cards better fit for the specific situation you can avoid this problem.
A more consistent win condition would also help.

Well...what should I aim for as a win condition? Also, do you think it'd be worth it to replace the Duty-Bound Dead with Killing Waves for better creature-removal?

tgva8889 · 07-18-2012, 01:06 AM

Killing Wave isn't a removal spell really, so no.

You want to run 25 lands because you're a control deck. You want to play as many lands as possible. If you have too many lands, you've got a Desolate Lighthouse, but I honestly doubt "having too many lands" is a problem. In the words of Gavin Verhey, "play more lands."

Your weapons against token decks should just be Magmaquake-style cards. It's actually possible you want Mutilates? But probably not.

You do definitely need something that actually kills them. If you got any, I'd go with Sphinx of Uthuun, as it has the side benefit of also drawing you cards (technically).

I would just drop the Duty-Bound Deads for more single-target removal. Or some combination of that and a win condition.

Lord Seth · 07-18-2012, 02:24 AM

I'd take Black Sun's Zenith over Mutilate, personally. Though I can see the appeal of getting the card that'll stay legal for the next year rather than just the next few months.

IcemanJRC · 07-18-2012, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran

Hmm...Yeah, I can swing that mana base easily enough but 25 lands seem like too much. Especially since I do have a few other sources of mana-fixing with the Gem of Becoming and Gilded Lotus to use...Come to think of it, I've never played a non-EDH deck that has run more then 24 lands period. And wouldn't I want more copies of Desolate Lighthouse and Ghost Quarter, to increase my chances of getting them?

You want 25 lands, maybe even 26, but 25 seems fine. I imagine you haven't played much control in the past, but you want to hit every land drop. Every land drop from turn 1 to turn 8, and the more you hit past that the better. And yes, you want more Desolate Lighthouse, probably 3, and maybe a second Ghost Quarter. That'd change the numbers of course, and the reason I didn't include them was because you didn't say you had them, you only listed one of each originally. I was working with the nonbasics that I saw you had.

Mystic Muse · 07-18-2012, 12:57 PM

Alright, here's the current incarnation of my FNM deck. I'm wondering if there's anything you guys think I could get rid of to throw in two Angelic overseers.

Also, critique of/advice on the sideboard would be nice.

EDIT: Turns out I have 4 Champion of the Parishes I thought I no longer had. Wondering if those should go somewhere in there. May use them post rotation.

Spoiler

Callos_DeTerran · 07-18-2012, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcemanJRC

You want 25 lands, maybe even 26, but 25 seems fine. I imagine you haven't played much control in the past, but you want to hit every land drop. Every land drop from turn 1 to turn 8, and the more you hit past that the better. And yes, you want more Desolate Lighthouse, probably 3, and maybe a second Ghost Quarter. That'd change the numbers of course, and the reason I didn't include them was because you didn't say you had them, you only listed one of each originally. I was working with the nonbasics that I saw you had.

I've got 2 Desolate Lighthouses and more Ghost Quarters then I can shake a ghost at.

tgva8889 · 07-18-2012, 01:47 PM

2 Lighthouse and 2 Ghost Quarter is probably fine. Your color requirements aren't so easy that you can play like 7 colorless lands and get away with it.

Black Sun's Zenith is better if you want a wrath in Standard, but it won't be in Standard in 3 months. It might be worthwhile to wait a little while and see what Wraths we get in Return to Ravnica block. I know one thing: I want them to reprint Pyroclasm already.

IcemanJRC · 07-18-2012, 02:22 PM

Yes, waiting may prove fruitful. Though you said you wanted to bring this to gameday, right? So you may be able to overhaul the deck to accommodate Mutilates instead.