Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" - Page 10

Provengreil · 07-16-2012, 04:19 PM

*facepalm

wow. totally got my codexes crossed, pretty hard too. forget what I said.

Cheesegear · 07-16-2012, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hootman

Dark Angels (Hello, I am THE Deathwing. TROOPS.)
Grey Knights (Lol, but I do it better. TROOPS.)
Space Wolves (I am the cheapest Thing-Wing. TROOPS.)

Grey Knights are not better than Deathwing.
Space Wolves are only cheaper than Deathwing when you get up to 21 Terminators, and none of them have upgrades.

In short, Deathwing is still the best Terminator army. There isn't anything much better than an entire unit of 3+ Invulnerables.

Hootman · 07-16-2012, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Grey Knights are not better than Deathwing.

I was under the impression that, between Psycannons, NF Swords (free 4++, obviously not 3++ but still good), psychic powers, and access to Stormravens and/or Psyriflemen, GK's had the overall better build. The fact that they could take any HQ they wanted instead of being forced into Belial (who's decent, but underwhelming as I remember him) is a light bonus.

I could be wrong, though--I've never actually played Dark Angels or Grey Knights, I just work off what I read.

Timberwolf · 07-16-2012, 07:14 PM

Grey Knights are the better army to collect and play as there are very few outright terrible options and you can build them in a variety of ways. Deathwing, on the other hand is pretty much a monobuild where you have 3 squads minimum of Deathwing with Hammers, shields and Cyclones, Belial, a Librarian and maybe a couple of Dreadnoughts or a Landraider just for variety's sake if, like me, you're not particularly competitive and only break your Deathwing out for fun.

Still, you look far cooler with Deathwing and always earn style points for playing the Codex that may as well have been written on animal hide with a rusty flint.

Ishikar · 07-16-2012, 10:02 PM

So played Emperor's Will (the new capture and hold) with my Tau vs. Raven guard with Hammer and Anvil deployment. I won roll and had him deploy first but stole the initiative.

1850 point game

The lists:

Tau:

Spoiler

Raven Guard:

Spoiler

The Game:

Spoiler

Things I learned:
Concentrated fire still mops up terminators (dark angel player has been STUPID lucky with his rolls last games I played him. FNP termies can go melt in a fire).
Hammer and Anvil helps long range shooting (especially when opponent deploys several of his units further back and his Aegis line in the back corner).
Mysterious forests can REALLY hose Kroot (rolled carnivorous after deployment, Kroot ran out turn 1 and waited for turn 5 to run back in).
Fortifications can VERY quickly turn into a liability (seized his aegis and objective on turn 2, things went downhill from there).
Basic Marines can't do 2 terminator squads at 1850 without really hurting the rest of their list (400 for assaults + 250ish for tacticals = 1/3 of your points on 15 models, Tau have the same issue with suits, 772 points for 10 Crisis suits (100 for HQ, 224 for each 3 man team with drones)).
Removal of 6" = no rally rule? BRILLIANT! Broke termies who then ATSKNF rallied next turn but it kept them out of assault!

thereaper · 07-17-2012, 12:21 AM

So, I finally have access to the 6ed rulebook, and I really want to try making a 2000 pt GK+SoB army (mainly because it's fluffy, and Thawn + Celestine = hilarity).

Unfortunately, I still have 0 XP in this game, so...

Spoiler

That comes to 1950 points (with 50 points I have no clue what to do with). I was thinking that the Purifiers could form the basis of the army, the Dreads would take care of distance shooting (are VenDreads still worthwhle?), sisters would be mobile cover busters, retributors would be mobile tank killers, the Librarian + Purifiers would handle flyers, and the termies would do, well, termie stuff. But I'm not entirely sure if any of this would actually work (the new psyker rules confuse me; does a Librarian who uses the new psyker rules still have to buy powers?).

Cheesegear · 07-17-2012, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thereaper

(mainly because it's fluffy, and Thawn + Celestine = hilarity).

Well, it isn't. And...It isn't. So that's my thoughts on why you're building your list.

Quote:

Unfortunately, I still have 0 XP in this game, so...

First things first, clean up the list.

Spoiler

Quote:

does a Librarian who uses the new psyker rules still have to buy powers?).

No. Suck it Eldar and Chaos Marines.

But, unlike practically every other army, if you choose Powers from the BRB, you can't mix and match back into your own Codex.

thereaper · 07-17-2012, 02:27 AM

I disagree on the fluffiness part, but that's really irrelevant so I'll just leave it at that.

The hammers and halberds are there, I just didn't list them because they're free. 2 halberds, 2 swords, 1 hammer. Thawn is there for personal reasons (regardless of his usefulness or lack thereof, I consider him a hilarious unit). Celestine is a similar deal, but with less objective-taking and more killing stuff.

Incinerator instead of psycannon for one purifier sounds good. That could mean one more multimelta on the retributors.

Crowe is just for purifiers as troops. That's it. Are you saying I'd be better off with just terminators as troops? That would mean fewer bodies and far fewer psycannons, but I'm open to the idea.

Divination is the idea. The primaris power + psycannons is the anti-flyer tactic. Haven't really thought about other powers yet.

Sisters give more bodies. As GKs, bodies are something I feel I could use more of. I could get even more with IG Platoons, I know, but then they'd need more transports (which means greater costs).

I'm really torn between regular Dreadnoughts and Venerable ones.

Oh, good, that means that I might consider using those last 50 points on psyker mastery level 3 (if there is a worthwhile 3rd power).

Cheesegear · 07-17-2012, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thereaper

I disagree on the fluffiness part, but that's really irrelevant so I'll just leave it at that.

Well, there's two sources that say that it isn't. Basically the only thing that they've got going for them is 'They're both part of the Inquisition, that makes them friends.' even though pretty much everything that has dealt with Inquisition politics say otherwise. There's no friends in the Inquisition...

Quote:

Celestine is a similar deal, but with less objective-taking and more killing stuff.

Which reminds me. If you're really looking for hilarity, go for Sisters as the Primary, make Celestine your Warlord, and roll Personal Traits and make her Scoring and then lulz at your opponent when you don't die.

Incinerator instead of psycannon for one purifier sounds good. That could mean one more multimelta on the retributors.

Quote:

That's it. Are you saying I'd be better off with just terminators as troops? That would mean fewer bodies and far fewer psycannons, but I'm open to the idea.

...Kind of. Inquisitors with Plasma Siphons help out Terminators immensely. Well, they help out everything, really. One thing I would consider is dropping the Dreadnoughts for more Purifiers since they're effectively doing the same job and your Purifiers can Score and your Dreads...Can't.

Quote:

Divination is the idea. The primaris power + psycannons is the anti-flyer tactic. Haven't really thought about other powers yet.

1. Is good.
2. Is okay. Depends on how many Terminators with Swords you already have.
3. Is very good.
4. Good and bad. Depends on terrain. You roll at Deployment. Decide then.
5. Bad. Swap for Primaris. Your Psyker wont be shooting much. His unit, however, will.
6. Take it or leave it. You choose if you're using Reserves at Deployment, you can't Outflank anyway and a lot of meta-games are disregarding Mysterious Terrain (because it's stupid)

So, if you get 1 and/or 3, keep them. Only swap the others for Primaris depending on your opponent. #1 is stupidly good on Grey Knights because Counter-Attack with Halberds is stupidly broken. And, well, Overwatch on full BS...That too.

Quote:

I'm really torn between regular Dreadnoughts and Venerable ones.

They cost the same currency-wise. And anybody who says you can't use a Venerable as a Regular needs a punch in the head.

Quote:

Oh, good, that means that I might consider using those last 50 points on psyker mastery level 3 (if there is a worthwhile 3rd power).

Primaris, 1, and 3. But that's kind of pointless since everything but the Primaris is randumb.

thereaper · 07-17-2012, 04:27 AM

Oh, no, I don't mean fluffy in the sense of "these people are known to work well together in the fluff", I mean fluffy in the sense of "here we have psyker space marines who are utterly incorruptible, and here we have the sisters whose faith is so great it grants them powers; the ultimate hunters of the heretic and chaos, respectively". It goes well together in my mind.

A plasma syphon...Well, I kind of wanted to keep Inquisitors out of this (they don't interest me much), but an Ordos Xenos Inquisitor might get a pass (to add to the above "and here...is the only guy in the army who knows anything about xenos, who constantly facepalms at the tactical errors they make against xenos"). Real problem would be getting him and his plasma syphon to where it is needed (isn't deep striking one of the big advantages of terminators?).

Celestine as a scoring unit is unreliable (1/6 chance). Thawn is reliable. But yes, that is the kind of lulz I am going for with those two. Celestine clears objectives, Thawn takes them. And they cannot be kept down.

I kind of wanted the dreads to be like artillery or snipers (I don't really have anything that hits past 24"). But then again, with such a mobile army, maybe I don't need that? I could potentially drop them, and add some more purifiers (maybe even another unit of terminators to take some heat off the first one).

Should I give the Retributor Superior and Sister Superior a Chainsword instead of a bolt pistol? The other members of the squads have bolt pistols already, so...

Does that mean I shouldn't bother with Psyker Mastery Level 3?

Anyway, considering all that, it's looking more like...

Spoiler

Cheesegear · 07-17-2012, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thereaper

A plasma syphon...Well, I kind of wanted to keep Inquisitors out of this [...]. Real problem would be getting him and his plasma syphon to where it is needed (isn't deep striking one of the big advantages of terminators?).

Well, no. That wasn't what I was trying to say. You only have one unit of Terminators in your army. And they're not the good kind. They have a 5+ Invulnerable against shooting. They're also the only patch of 2+ Armour that you have, and, so, they're going to eat all of the AP2 (and 1) weapons that your opponent has to offer; And the majority of that will be Plasma.

And no. Deep Striking Terminators is only good when you have Homers, which GKs have very little of.

Quote:

I kind of wanted the dreads to be like artillery or snipers (I don't really have anything that hits past 24").

That is actually one of the only weaknesses that Grey Knights have, and you're going to see that problem in practically every GK list you make, unless you include Jokaero. Which means Inquisitors (funny how Inquisitors keeping popping up when you don't want them around...).

Quote:

Should I give the Retributor Superior and Sister Superior a Chainsword instead of a bolt pistol? The other members of the squads have bolt pistols already, so...

Chainswords don't do anything. And, since Sisters are stuck with Power Swords (there's no Errata to change it to 'weapon'), it's actually an okay idea to grab dual Plasma Pistols because when your Sisters use Faith in the Shooting phase, they re-roll 1s To Hit (lulz), and then you're using Gunslinging Precise Shot action to kill opposing Plasma weapons (don't bother targeting other Characters because they'll LOS that) and Terminators.

Retributor Plasma Pistols are...Not ideal. But, again, Gunslinging Precise Shot is fun.

Quote:

Does that mean I shouldn't bother with Psyker Mastery Level 3?

Depends how badly you want to roll more dice. More dice = More chance to get 1 and/or 3. But you can just as easily not get them.

Quote:

Anyway, considering all that, it's looking more like...
Ordos Xenos Inquisitor
Crowe
Librarian (psyker mastery 3)

...I count 3 GK HQs. What's up with that?

evisiron · 07-17-2012, 07:30 AM

So how are people finding the new terrain deployment rules?

I managed to massacre a Dark Eldar force with my Necrons after dumping a huge block of terrain in his deployment zone, making it tricky for him to manoeuvre without dangerous terrain rolls. It seems to have added another competitive element to the game, but sadly I doubt it will be feasible in a tournament environment.

LeSwordfish · 07-17-2012, 07:37 AM

My undertanding is that Rad>Psychotroke because most of the time, psychotroke grenades stop enemies hitting back, but high Init. and Rad grenades will leave them all dead anyway.

thereaper · 07-17-2012, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Well, no. That wasn't what I was trying to say. You only have one unit of Terminators in your army. And they're not the good kind. They have a 5+ Invulnerable against shooting. They're also the only patch of 2+ Armour that you have, and, so, they're going to eat all of the AP2 (and 1) weapons that your opponent has to offer; And the majority of that will be Plasma.

And no. Deep Striking Terminators is only good when you have Homers, which GKs have very little of.

That is actually one of the only weaknesses that Grey Knights have, and you're going to see that problem in practically every GK list you make, unless you include Jokaero. Which means Inquisitors (funny how Inquisitors keeping popping up when you don't want them around...).

Chainswords don't do anything. And, since Sisters are stuck with Power Swords (there's no Errata to change it to 'weapon'), it's actually an okay idea to grab dual Plasma Pistols because when your Sisters use Faith in the Shooting phase, they re-roll 1s To Hit (lulz), and then you're using Gunslinging Precise Shot action to kill opposing Plasma weapons (don't bother targeting other Characters because they'll LOS that) and Terminators.

Retributor Plasma Pistols are...Not ideal. But, again, Gunslinging Precise Shot is fun.

Depends how badly you want to roll more dice. More dice = More chance to get 1 and/or 3. But you can just as easily not get them.

...I count 3 GK HQs. What's up with that?

Ah, sorry. Thought for a moment that chainswords had been given some AP. Bolt pistols it is, then. At least they penetrate flak armor.

I guess I can accept a lack of long range shooting, then.

You were the one who pointed out Plasma Syphon was a way to protect my termies (and I need at least one unit of them for Thawn). Crowe is a tax. And the Librarian is the only method I have to attack flyers effectively.

I could get rid of one of the 10 man purifier squads for another terminator squad (and have a few extra points left over), to take some more heat off the first one, but that just means that whichever one isn't near the inquisitor eats plasma. Unless, that is, I add another Inquisitor with another plasma syphon. But if I'm just gonna do that, why not just leave it as-is and have the extra psycannons that more purifiers would offer? Or should I just get rid of purifiers altogether and just have an army of terminators?

Hootman · 07-17-2012, 01:06 PM

I've been fiddling around with list ideas for you, thereaper, but I think the biggest problem you'll face is that your units are going in two different directions. Let me try to explain what I mean:

1) Crowe & Purifiers. I love Crowe, but he's little more than a tax for an already expensive unit. Furthermore, he's a single-model unit that is NOT and Independent Character, so if you want him to move forward he'll need a transport. Luckily, Purifiers ARE very powerful for what you're paying (even in taxes), which can make up for Crowe's inevitably lackluster performance.

2) Librarian & Thawn. Both of these guys require a unit of Terminators to be useful (literally to use Thawn, and so the Libby doesn't hold up anyone else's Sweeping Advances), but with the new psyker rules they actually serve roughly the same purpose--and Thawn's a much cheaper way to sneak Mastery Level 2 into a bucket of Terminators.

((EDIT: Unfortunately, it would seem that the FAQ does not allow for the many non-Independent Psykers of the Grey Knight army to take powers from the BBB. Reasonable, and probably for the best, but kind of lame.))

Still, I suggest a list like a following. I tried not to get rid of anything you really seemed to want, but still make the force as formidable as possible:

Spoiler

Gauntlet · 07-17-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

No. Suck it Eldar and Chaos Marines.

But, unlike practically every other army, if you choose Powers from the BRB, you can't mix and match back into your own Codex.

Wait, so if I'm playing Marines or Wolves, I can take one power from the Codex and roll for the other one? That seems.. pretty handy.

Wyntonian · 07-17-2012, 03:05 PM

So, I have heard tell that there may be an Ork army available for me to purchase soon, somewhere in the 1500 points range. I understand that there will be a Deffcopta, infantry, a tankbusta squad, some Nobz and the chance of a warbuggy/trukk thing.

When looking at an Ork army to purchase, what shall I be on the lookout for? How can I estimate a reasonable price for a used army?

Also, what playstyle does an Ork army lend itself to?

evisiron · 07-17-2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyntonian

So, I have heard tell that there may be an Ork army available for me to purchase soon, somewhere in the 1500 points range. I understand that there will be a Deffcopta, infantry, a tankbusta squad, some Nobz and the chance of a warbuggy/trukk thing.

When looking at an Ork army to purchase, what shall I be on the lookout for? How can I estimate a reasonable price for a used army?

Also, what playstyle does an Ork army lend itself to?

Lookout for:
-Warbikes
-Nobz
-Meganobz
-Battlewagons
-If boys, boys with shoota's.
-Lootas

Price estimate:
-It's all down to personal preference, available supply and condition. Generally I'll buy stuff that is in sprue or bits for 50% of the original price (more if it's something I'm already planning on buying), but only about 33% if it's stuck together and painted.
Hop on the GW website for the official verdict, then check eBay in case there are better offers around.

Playstyle:
Losing.

Almost every aspect of the Orks got hit in the new edition, as shooting has been buffed and the key to victory with the Orks was reaching the enemy lines with enough boys surviving the shooting to swamp the enemy.
The parts that have survived intact are meganobs, lootas and nob bikers.
Still, the primary approaches would be:
-Drown them in dice - take huge blobs of boys with shoota's and get close enough to use them.
-Green tide - take as many boys as you can and rush towards the enemy line, hopefully presenting too many targets for the opponent to cope.
-Kan wall - Take as many killa kans and deff dreads as you can, then rush forward.
-Hammer and Hammer - sink your points into big units of Nob bikers or meganobs in battlewagons, take warbosses to make 2 of them troops, and powerslam into the enemy lines.

As you can guess, Orks are about attacking with the elegance and grace of a large brick, thrown very hard.

Provengreil · 07-17-2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyntonian

So, I have heard tell that there may be an Ork army available for me to purchase soon, somewhere in the 1500 points range. I understand that there will be a Deffcopta, infantry, a tankbusta squad, some Nobz and the chance of a warbuggy/trukk thing.

When looking at an Ork army to purchase, what shall I be on the lookout for? How can I estimate a reasonable price for a used army?

Also, what playstyle does an Ork army lend itself to?

I can help a bit on the last one.

In a word, more so than any other army, more. fun is a close second, but mostly more. pick what you want to do: horde mode, shooty mode, bike mode, krumpin mode(there'll be plenty of that one no matter what, but...), etc, and pick the appropriate units for it: nob bikers, nobz with klaws, shootas lootas and bustas, then get more of them. and more after that. because if you're doing it right, they can't kill ALL of you. add some trukks/battlewagons to taste, and you should have some good fun.

6th might changes the game a bit: investing in a building could give excellent cover to your lootas they otherwise couldn't count on, 2+ armor being so much better could lend megazobz a hand. overwatch lends itself rather heavily to shootas if you look: they don't actually lose that much BS, and they have the numbers to make up for it unlike most other units.

my biggest recommendation is to be a little cheap and borrow/proxy models until you find what you find both fun and effective to use.

Wyntonian · 07-17-2012, 04:05 PM

Ew.... That doesn't sound terribly fun. I'll check my local stores, see if there's something a little more fun available. I'm no fan of "MOAR DAKKA" style warfare, so I might end up looking elsewhere.

I plan to visit my friendly local game store, pick up a rule handbook for 6th ed, be charming and polite to the proprietor and see if he'll let me screw around with his samples until I find something I like.

Tome · 07-17-2012, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyntonian

Ew.... That doesn't sound terribly fun. I'll check my local stores, see if there's something a little more fun available. I'm no fan of "MOAR DAKKA" style warfare, so I might end up looking elsewhere.

I plan to visit my friendly local game store, pick up a rule handbook for 6th ed, be charming and polite to the proprietor and see if he'll let me screw around with his samples until I find something I like.

Yeah, if you're not a fan of MOAR DAKKA, then Orks almost certainly aren't for you.

If you give us an idea of what sort of tactics you'd prefer, we might be able to give some suggestions as to what army would suit that playstyle.

Wyntonian · 07-17-2012, 04:15 PM

Um... So far, I've been exactly one turn into a 800 point game with Space Wolves against IG. Then the sun went down and we couldn't see jack. So... I'll mess around a little bit more, see what appeals.

SynissterSyster · 07-17-2012, 04:26 PM

I am going to take the plunge next week and buy a battlebox of Dark Eldar. I may add in an Archon so I can have a HQ. Will be a small point game when I do play, 500, but worth trying out and seeing how things work. I will keep you all posted.

Squark · 07-17-2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

No. Suck it Eldar and Chaos Marines.

But, unlike practically every other army, if you choose Powers from the BRB, you can't mix and match back into your own Codex.

Wait, where does it say you can do that? The impression I got from the BBB is that you can choose to select powers from your codex, OR roll for psychic powers. Is there an FAQ ruling I'm missing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyntonian

Um... So far, I've been exactly one turn into a 800 point game with Space Wolves against IG. Then the sun went down and we couldn't see jack. So... I'll mess around a little bit more, see what appeals.

Try before you buy. Most stores either have a house army or two, or will have people who will be willing to lend you an army so you can get a feel for the game. No point in spending $200+ on the BBB, a Codex, and an Army if it turns out you just don't enjoy 40k.

Cheesegear · 07-17-2012, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gauntlet

Wait, so if I'm playing Marines or Wolves, I can take one power from the Codex and roll for the other one? That seems.. pretty handy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squark

Wait, where does it say you can do that? The impression I got from the BBB is that you can choose to select powers from your codex, OR roll for psychic powers. Is there an FAQ ruling I'm missing?

Eldar and Chaos Marines buy their powers as normal. Then, at Deployment they can choose to go into the BRB. This is not a list choice. This is a choice made at Deployment because you've already paid for your powers. But, a GK Librarian does not need to buy Powers, and gets to roll for Powers, but he can't buy Powers because the list is already written. Of course, you can buy Powers at list creation and then swap them same as Eldar or Chaos. The point is, the GKs don't need to spend points to get Disciplines, wheras Eldar and Chaos do.

As for taking Powers from your own Codex and the Disciplines, no. I was wrong and I misread.

Squark · 07-17-2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

As for taking Powers from your own Codex and the Disciplines, no. I was wrong and I misread.

Ok, that's what I thought. Just double checking, because Master of Runes with Living Lighting + Prescience seems kind of silly.

Also, I've been thinking about an alternate loadout for my wolf guard than my usual Powerfist+Combi-weapon loadout. What do you guys think of Double Plasma Pistols and Mark of the Wulfen? On the one hand, it's five points more expensive than my usual loadout, and plasma pistols have a shorter range than a combi-plasma (And I'm not sure how 2 S7 AP2 shots compare to 1 S8 AP 1 Melta shot, although the knee jerk reaction is that the plasma will be superior at 7-12" range against light armor, while against heavy armor and at <6", the meltagun is superior). On the other hand, you're still able to shoot and assault with this loadout, and Mark of the Wulfen lets you hit at initiative in challenges, which is handy when fighting units of Marines with Powerfist sergeants.

Lastly, does pistoleer let the character use a single fire point for both pistols, or would each pistol take up its own fire point?

Cheesegear · 07-17-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squark

Lastly, does pistoleer let the character use a single fire point for both pistols, or would each pistol take up its own fire point?

"A single passenger can fire out of each Fire Point..."

So, shoot as many weapons as a single passenger has. If you've got two weapons, shoot two weapons.

Renegade Paladin · 07-17-2012, 09:00 PM

Creed has two pistols, but his rules in the codex say they fire as twin-linked. I suppose since codex trumps he's SOL?

Not that you buy him for his pistols anyway.

thereaper · 07-18-2012, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hootman

I've been fiddling around with list ideas for you, thereaper, but I think the biggest problem you'll face is that your units are going in two different directions. Let me try to explain what I mean:

1) Crowe & Purifiers. I love Crowe, but he's little more than a tax for an already expensive unit. Furthermore, he's a single-model unit that is NOT and Independent Character, so if you want him to move forward he'll need a transport. Luckily, Purifiers ARE very powerful for what you're paying (even in taxes), which can make up for Crowe's inevitably lackluster performance.

2) Librarian & Thawn. Both of these guys require a unit of Terminators to be useful (literally to use Thawn, and so the Libby doesn't hold up anyone else's Sweeping Advances), but with the new psyker rules they actually serve roughly the same purpose--and Thawn's a much cheaper way to sneak Mastery Level 2 into a bucket of Terminators.

((EDIT: Unfortunately, it would seem that the FAQ does not allow for the many non-Independent Psykers of the Grey Knight army to take powers from the BBB. Reasonable, and probably for the best, but kind of lame.))

Still, I suggest a list like a following. I tried not to get rid of anything you really seemed to want, but still make the force as formidable as possible:

Spoiler

I like the core here, but there's no flyer defense, no melta (I had the retributor squad to be heavy tank killers), the seraphim seem kind of useless (between battle sisters, incinerators, and celestine, do I really need even more cover-busting?), and I don't see what the exorcist offers over a PsyDread. Are you trying to say that the psycannons are all I'll need for tanks? Is the exorcist somehow better than a PsyDread?

Regardless, I think I would want to replace the seraphim with an aegis defence line, at least (or is that not enough to mean anything and I'm screwed with regards to flyers no matter what I do?). But other than that and the questions I had above, it looks like just what I want.

Squark · 07-18-2012, 10:27 AM

Aegis Defense Lines can probably handle one flier. The problem is if you're up against Necrons or Guard, you can be looking at 6+ fliers. The Quad gun might take down 1 a turn if you're lucky. (If it doesn't use evasive manuvers, on average a quad gun inflicts 2 hull points of damage on a Storm Talon or a Night/Death Scythe, which, coupled with a roll or two on the damage table, stands a good chance of taking it out. But Evasive Manuvers, or a Valkyrie or Stormraven's higher armor value lower your chances considerably. And as Cheasegear will be quick to tell you, dice almost never perform at an average level)