Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

I have a rules question about conversions and counts-as models. I'm building a deathwing army, and I want my converted Belial (since it's not actual Dark Angels) to have dual lightning claws. Can I model it as him dual-wielding swords and say that it's lightning claws? Or do I have to actually have the claws on the model instead?

Asking 'the Internet' about Counts As is kind of pointless. We're not your opponents (or we're probably not), and we're almost definitely not your TO. Counts As is what your opponent says your allowed to do, as, while it's not obvious, Counts As is actually glorified proxying.

In the specific case of Belial...Its easy to argue that you should be able to do it, but I'm not your opponent, nor a TO.

[Forrestfire]

Fair enough. I was just trying to get a general idea of what I should be prepared for, since I'm going to be joining an entirely new group this year when I go off to college >.>

Thanks for the advice, though .

EDIT: From what I can see, there isn't even a Belial miniature in production. Maybe I should just magnetize his arms to have either lightning claws and swords.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

EDIT: From what I can see, there isn't even a Belial miniature in production. Maybe I should just magnetize his arms to have either lightning claws and swords.

There sure isn't.
Popular choice for a Belial model is Lysander, now in Failinecast for easier removal of Fist insignia, or Forgeworld's Commander Culln. And magnetising is best. Either Lightning Claws or Hammer and Shield - there's justification for both. I don't think I've ever seen anyone bring the Storm Bolter and Sword.

[Forrestfire]

I'm just going to go with a heavily-converted AoBR terminator, just like all but 4 termies in the rest of my army XD

[Renegade Paladin]

Funny story: In the main rulebook, the example of play for the Blood of Martyrs mission breaks all the ally rules. They have an Inquisitor allied to an Imperial Guard army, riding in a Guard transport, with no other GK units in sight. In fluff it makes total sense, but the rules say no.

[LeSwordfish]

Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

In fluff it makes total sense, but the rules say no.

The allies matrix, ladies and gentlemen.

They could be "Counts As"-ing him as Coteaz, and those stormtroopers could be an acolyte squad? Still doesn't get around how there's no way for him to be aboard an allied transport.

[Renegade Paladin]

Originally Posted by LeSwordfish

The allies matrix, ladies and gentlemen.

They could be "Counts As"-ing him as Coteaz, and those stormtroopers could be an acolyte squad? Still doesn't get around how there's no way for him to be aboard an allied transport.

He wouldn't have to be Coteaz to have a henchman squad; any inquisitor can have one. But yeah.

Edit: He could be a counts-as Primaris Psyker.

[LeSwordfish]

If he's Coteaz, the acolytes are troops and the detachment is legal. That's why you need Coteaz for plasmacolytes, because they're still elites if you take the 35 point inquisitor with combi-plasma.

And yeah. I regularly Counts As a lord-commissar as an inquisitor.

[Cheesegear]

Turns out I missed this.

Originally Posted by evisiron

Curses, no clarification on command Barges when they get thumped in close combat.

What Clarification do you need? I'm confused.

[Borgh]

So GW posted another teaser today, by forgeworld. Its obviously about the traitormarines (gasps of surprised shock) so I'm curious what FW will cook up this time around.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Borgh

So GW posted another teaser today, by forgeworld. Its obviously about the traitormarines (gasps of surprised shock) so I'm curious what FW will cook up this time around.

Well...It clearly says "The Horus Heresy" and you're about a page late.

I'm fairly disappointed that Salamanders (?) vs. Thousand Sons IA 12 appears to have been scrapped. Although it might have been Imperial Guard or Red Scorpions vs. Thousand Sons.

[Provengreil]

Originally Posted by Forrestfire

I have a rules question about conversions and counts-as models. I'm building a deathwing army, and I want my converted Belial (since it's not actual Dark Angels) to have dual lightning claws. Can I model it as him dual-wielding swords and say that it's lightning claws? Or do I have to actually have the claws on the model instead?

(Bear in mind, dual power swords is illegal on Belial. His options are Master-crafted power sword/storm bolter, 2 lightning claws, or thunder hammer/storm shield).

I know I'm a little late to this reply, but counts as really does go as far as you want it to. when I was first learning how to play the game, before i'd found a store or wanted to drop any real money, a significant model count issue led to quarters counting as our basic troops and what few actual models we had being things that were not basic troops. similarly, a nid player used carboard cutout bases while he was still assembling his army. we let a lot of things slide until tourney time, it's more fun that way.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, my experience also says this is the more common attitude, where people care more about getting to play, then about minor details like the shape of the enemy troops or tanks.

[Eldan]

It should generally be recognizable, though. Nothing more annoying than getting into discussions midgame about which of your five quarters was the named hero.

[Provengreil]

Originally Posted by Eldan

It should generally be recognizable, though. Nothing more annoying than getting into discussions midgame about which of your five quarters was the named hero.

in our case, that was the one actually represented by a model, usually the sergeant. i had a few, just not many. if things got really hairy, dabs of play-doh on top of the quarters often sufficed.

[Squark]

Alternatively, depending on how many models your metagame has and how much the players there trust you, you might be able to borrow some of theirs. A lot of my preliminary space wolves games have been done with Blood Angels devastators and tactical marines standing in for my second squad of Long fangs and my third Grey Hunters pack.

[Provengreil]

well, the quarters were before I found the shop, and only had one guy to play with. after I found the shop, I started buying my own and filling the cracks with a space wolf player's extra models. he had about 9k points worth, and his collection has only grown since then.

[Zorg]

Some more info from GD Chi-town:

Originally Posted by quilava1

Today I attended Games Day Chicago and had a chance to chat with Phil Kelly himself. I mentioned to him my sadness at the lack of a power fist, as our anti-termie combat weapons are limited to the demiklaives. He started to ask me why I just didn't use a huskblade, but stopped himself mid-sentance. A few minutes later, he told me that a new FAQ was on the way.
Finally GW has listened to our pleas and brought the feared terminator down a rung in the ladder of brokenness. Almost asked him about Chaos Marines, but decided not to. Would have loved to see his reaction though

[bluntpencil]

Wow, they really need to get people with a different mindset in on writing the game mechanics from a balance perspective.

You need cheesy, rules-lawyering scumbags that can twist and bend the rules into shapes never thought possible to write the rules so that, in a tournament, or at home, you get it nice and balanced.

[Sheep Overlord]

So, thinking about how I want to expand my Guard list to 1000 points. . . For the moment, flyers are out (haven't become comfortable with the rules yet) and I haven't given fortifications much consideration. Here's what I'm thinking so far, totaling 950 points.

Spoiler

HQ:
Company Command Squad - 100 Points
Lascannon, Master of Ordinance

Elites:
5 Ratlings - 50 points

Guardsman Marbo - 65 Points

Troops:

2x Platoon Command Squad - 210 Points
Chimera, 4x Flamer

4x Infantry Squad - 240 Points
Autocannon

Fast Attack:

Scout Sentinel - 35 Points

Scout Sentinel - 35 Points

Scout Sentinel - 35 Points

Heavy Support:

Leman Russ Demolisher - 180 Points
Hull Lascannon

The Ratlings and Marbo are more because I want to experiment with them than because I actually know how to use them yet.

Currently, the plan is for the CCS, Ratlings, and at least one infantry squad to sit still and take potshots from the home objective. The CCS is moderate anti-tank, being able to order itself to BiD (which should work on the MoO as well as the Lascannon, right?) without being too expensive and therefore a fire magnet. Ratlings are for MCs or light infantry hoping to get lucky with a pin, or for those newfangled sniping rules which I need to read over again. The infantry squad claims the objective and pots away with its autocannon (and lasguns, when the enemy closes).

Meanwhile the three other infantry squads either stay put and shoot or move towards another objective / cover, as the situation demands. Nothing fancy for them.

The demolisher is intended to move up the board escorting the PCS-chimeras. I haven't decided yet if one or more of the scout sentinels will be outflanking or if they will be moving up with this armored group (I can defer that decision until the game starts, right?). Between the 3 multi-lasers on the sentinels and the two on the chimeras, plus possibly the infantry autocannons and maybe chimera hull heavy bolters, infantry and lighter armor should be shredded pretty easily I hope. The demolisher can take out the heavier armor and use the chimeras and scout sentinels as ablative shielding to protect its side and rear armor, and between the multi-lasers and flamers most anti-AV infantry shouldn't be able to get too close. I think.

I am worried that I either don't have enough anti-armor or that my scoring units aren't mobile enough. Marbo might get lucky and help on the anti-AV front and hopefully can tie up another unit as well to make my limited mobility less of a hindrance. I did consider a tech-priest to move with that blob of armor but I couldn't make the points for it and I'm told it's subpar, even though the model is pretty cool.

Thoughts? I'm not a tournament player so it doesn't need to be super competitive, just capable enough that bringing it to the table isn't an auto-lose. I don't know where to spend the last 50 points, or what to give the chimeras for their hull weapon. I'm not sure if making room for a Primaris Psyker is worthwhile because I haven't read up on the new psychic disciplines yet, either. I'm not looking to add any allies - I'd like to keep it pure guard for the forseeable future. Should I give my autocannon infantry flamers as well, to overwatch against assaults?

Also, on a completely unrelated and entirely hypothetical note, if I took a Lord Commissar with dedicated chimera and attached him to a Tech-Priest with two MM or PC servitors, then kitted out the chimera with camo cloaks and put it behind an Aegis and whatnot, how would you react to face it? It's entirely impractical due to the points cost and such, but it's definitely not the role a chimera is usually expected to fill so I don't know if it would give some people pause.

You'll note that I'm not a hugely effective guard player, of course. I was going to include a rough rider squad and a plasma cannon armored sentinel, but I ran out of fast attack choices and I'm wary of squadroning still. Speaking of sentinels - smoke launchers and camo netting, are they worth it?

EDIT: And a second, slightly revised version of the first list based on recent comments.

Spoiler

HQ:
Company Command Squad - 130 Points
Master of Ordinance, Lascannon, 2x Plasmaguns

Elites:
5 Ratlings - 50 Points

Guardsman Marbo - 65 Points

Troops:

Platoon Command Squad - 105 Points
Chimera, 4x Flamer

3x Infantry Squad - 210 Points
Lascannon

Veteran Squad - 155 Points
Chimera, 3x Melta

Fast Attack:

Scout Sentinel - 35 Points
Scout Sentinel - 35 Points
Scout Sentinel - 35 Points

Heavy Support:

Leman Russ Demolisher - 180 Points
Hull Lascannon

This version replaces a PCS and an infantry squad with a meltavet squad; tactics are ultimately the same, with the chimera-mounted units providing close support for the demolisher as it advances and claiming objectives. The infantry squads have lascannons instead of autocannons, as recommended. Additionally, two plasmagunners have been added to the command squad for lack of anything better to do with the points (I'm worried that they'll make the squad a bigger target and I'm worried about Gets Hot! without carapace or a medic, so these might get replaced with bodyguards or shelved altogether in favor of more ratlings).

[houlio]

I primarily play against a guard player myself, I would recommend switching the PCS's to plasma guns, which is both good anti-infantry (rapid fire) and good anti-light vehicle (S7 and ap2). Then I would say to switch out your autocannons with lascannons, since you seem to lack a lot of long range anti-tank options. Otherwise, I would consider running the normal battle tank over a demolisher. Case in point, I just played a game where my friend's demolisher got immobilized and proceeded to be exploded by long range railgun fire. It's really nice for you to be able to lay those large blasts out every turn, even though you take the strength and ap hits. Of course, my advice is far from expert, and it is all ultimately up to you.

[LeSwordfish]

I think you need more anti-tank. So far, two lascannons and a large blast won't be able to deal with a land raider, say, or even more than a few chimera-likes. Filling one Chimera with Meltavets is an option for this, as is replacing all those autocannons with lascannons.

The platoon command squads shouldnt have the chimera: They're 5-man squads with T3, 5+ save, and special rules that boost other units, if they're close. You dont want two of them to be the only thing trying to take an objective from, say, a terminator squad. Orders are good, meltas are better.

Suggestion:

Spoiler

995 points


HQ:
Company Command Squad - 70 Points
Lascannon,

Elites:
9 Ratlings - 90 points (Or another sentinel, for flavour.)

Guardsman Marbo - 65 Points

Troops:

Platoon Command Squad - 50
Lascannon

3x Infantry Squad - 270 Points
Lascannon

2x Veteran squad 310
3x meltaguns, Chimera

Fast Attack:

Scout Sentinel - 35 Points

Heavy Support:

Leman Russ- 165 Points
Hull Lascannon

Meltavets for whacking tanks up close, with the chimera to get them there. Think "Bring It Down" is good on a lascannon and a blast, try it on three lascannons with twenty-four bodyguards.

I'm not sure about the Master of Ordinance, or the need for a demolisher as opposed to a standard leman russ. I'm sure others can put the lie to this, but i've never had much use from any. You could probably swap both for another squad of ratlings, or fill out your current squad.

Primaris psyker: Not great. Mastery level one, no access to the best disciplines. He helps Deny The Witch, but that's about it.

Armoured sentinel: Not great. Overpriced, and still bad. You take sentinels for Move Through Cover and such, not their durability. The armoured sentinel has neither.

Rough riders: Bad. Pay double the price for a guardsman with extra movement and a hunting lance? I think not. Imperial guard don't assault.

Checking the codex: Camo netting is for vehicles that don't move, and i'm not sure why you want a sentinel to not move, really. I'd certainly not pay ten points for it. Smoke launchers: ideally you want your sentinel to be in cover anyway.

[Alex Knight]

Technically, Necrons can have units arrive from Reserve on Turn 1, as long as the other side does it first.

Both Deathmarks and Nemesor Zahndrekh's special ability allow Necron units to arrive from Reserve in response to enemy reinforcements.

Heck, Zahndrekh can bring in ALL of his reserves at once if the other side deploys a single unit.

[Squark]

So, remember that Space Wolves guide I did? Finally finished it.

Squark’s guide to Space Wolves in 6th Edition

A note on common rules

Spoiler

Counter Attack: Every Space Wolf unit this would be relevant on apart from Dreadnaughts (which don’t have Leadership values, so they can’t actually have it anyway). Counter Attack has not stop being good. Fact is, with Overwatch and the changes to charging, Space Wolves are just as scary when they’re assaulted as when they’re charging. Unless they’re Blood Claws. But Blood Claws are bad, so that’s okay.

And They Shall Know No Fear: This is even better now. Even though you don’t have combat tactics to abuse this with, it’s still a great ability.

Acute Senses: Well, Saga of the Hunter and Wolf Scouts will enjoy this, but I can’t help suspecting this is going to get errata’d into Night Vision. Still, you’ve got Counter Attack. Getting to re-roll which edge of the board your outflanking units come onto is just a bonus.

Leaders of the Pack: Each HQ slot you have can contain two HQ units! Sweet. However, they can’t have the same wargear, saga, or psychic powers as another HQ in your army, unless they’re a Special Character. The intent here is so you can craft a large group of unique Heroes to lead your army. Of course, some people will abuse this to take three Rune Priests all with Jaws of the World Wolf, with the only difference being which gun the Rune Priest took. Ultimately, the choice is up to you, but the fluffy route comes with extra cool points.

Sagas: Basically, Sagas are special pieces of wargear you can take for your HQ units (And Iron Priests and Venerable Dreadnaughts) that gives them a special ability. However, no two models in your army can have the same saga, unless one of them is a Special Character. Also, Sagas have fluffy requirements your character is suspected to fulfill; For instance, a character with Saga of the Wolfkin is expected to attempt to keep his furry allies alive. There’s no real penalty for breaking the oath (and sometimes it’s impossible to fulfill said oath, because it requires you to kill a kind of unit your opponent doesn’t have, like with Saga of the Beastslayer), but again, this is a fluffy codex, and following the fluff is fun.
-Saga of the wolfkin: You’ve Got Canis Wulfborn for this. Your own characters don’t need it.
-Saga of the Bear: Eternal Warrior has not stopped being good.
-Saga of Majesty: Not really necessary.
-Saga of the Hunter: Sweet. Stealth and outflanking for cheap. As if Wolf Priests didn’t bring enough to their unit already.
-Saga of the Warrior Born: Challenges have kind of put a damper on this, as sergeants are going to challenge you if only to stop you from making mince-meat of their squad most of the time.
-Saga of the Beastslayer: Perfect for Rune Priests sniping Monstrous Creatures and Walkers
-Saga of the Iron Wolf: Uh… Kind of pointless?

Non-Unique HQ Units

Spoiler

Wolf Lord: Wolf Lord are primarily a close combat focused HQ choice, compared to the more support focused Rune Priests and Wolf Priests. With that in mind, they’ve got a strong statline (compared to the similarly priced Space Marine Captain, you’ve got the same wargear and stats, except the Commander has a 4+ Invul save, and the Wolf Lord has an extra attack). Generally speaking, a Wolf Lord is defined primarily by what wargear he chooses. So, a word on wargear choices;
-Power Maul+Power Axe: 5 High Strength attacks should be enough to seriously wreck someone’s day.
-Power Maul+Frost Axe: Pay 10 more points to give that axe an extra point of strength. Personally, I’d just pay 5 more points, and take
-Wolf Claw + Power Fist: This isn’t cheap by any means, but it’s effective. You’ve got 5 attacks, and you’re either AP 3 and re-rolling to hit or to wound, or S8 (S10 on a thunderwolf ) AP 2. However, some people will call cheese at mixing two specialist weapons (and it might get errata’d). If you’re footslogging, take terminator armor for the discount.
-Storm Shields: Very, very important, to keep your Wolf Lord alive. Losing the versatility of the second close combat weapon hurts, but you probably still want it.
-Runic Armor: 2+ Armor Saves are very, very good. And, you’ve got a 5+ Invul save against wounds caused by psychic powers.
-Terminator Armor: An alternative to runic armor. While you do get discounts on wargear, it doesn't make up for the extra cost. Stick to runic armor.
-Jump Packs and Bikes: Swiftclaws and Skyclaws will much prefer a wolf priest. So, no.
-Thunderwolf Mount: Sweet! Cavalry are fantastic in 6th edition, and you’ve got a bunch of other benefits to go with it. Sure, you can only join groups of Fenrisian wolves and Thunder wolves… But what else where you going to join, anyway? I recommend using the 6th thunderwolf from your second box to kitbash this guy with the Space Marine Commander box and leftover wolfy bits instead of going with the finecast model. You avoid the hassle of failcast, and you have more control over wargear. Also, the Finecast Wolf Lord’s face is hideous. And what else are you going to do with that extra thunderwolf, anyway?
-Melta Bombs: You’ve often got a strength boosting weapon already, so these aren’t strictly necessary. However, if you’re taking multiple Wolf Lords, melta bombs are one way to get around Leaders of the Pack.
-Wolftooth Necklace: Given the way challenges work in 6th edition, most of the things you challenge are going to be stuff you’d hit on a 3+ already. The only real exception to this is other close-combat focused HQs. And against those guys, your points are probably better spent elsewhere.
-Wolftail Talisman: Wow. Your Captain’s psychic defense is nearly good as a codex marine librarian’s magic hat. And it’s only so cheap!
-Fenrisian Wolves: Ablative wounds. Thing is, chances are, you’ve got a squad for that, or are in a challenge and can’t use Look out, Sir! Still, they’re cheap, and they’re another way to get around Leaders of the Pack.
-Mark of the Wulfen: Gives you the potential to make a ton of attacks. Oh wait, you already do. Pass.
-Belt of Russ: If you take two close combat weapons instead of a storm shield, you also need one of these.
Warlord Trait: Command is full of not incredibly useful, but not totally pointless abilities. Personal has a fair number of nice stuff, but every time you roll a one, you will bash your head into the wall (Master of Maneuver isn't much better)

Rune Priest: Rune Priests are one of the only sources of long-range, effective psychic defense in the game, a title they share with Eldar Farseers and Tyranids. That alone makes them pretty good, but they also have access to a variety of excellent psychic powers. Generally speaking, there are three basic roles a Rune Priest can take; Long Range Fire Support, Divination support, and Biomancy powerhouse.

Psychic Powers: If you pay half again as many points as you already have for your Rune Priest, you can make him a master of runes to give him mastery level 2. Diviners and Biomancers may appreciate this, but the codex powers are mostly witchfire powers, which you can only fire one of a turn.

-Divination: Divination is, in my opinion, the best discipline in the BBB. Even if you prefer Telepathy, you have to agree that Prescience, Foreboding, and Misfortune are all fantastic powers.
-Biomancy: Biomancy allows you to make a Rune Priest into a more combat focused character. Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Endurance, and Enfeeble are all useful to you.
-Telekenisis: Frankly, if you want powers from Telekinesis, you should just take a Codex Marines Librarian as an ally, and pick the powers without rolling.
-Codex Powers: Listed Individually, since you actually have input in which you get.
--Tunderclap: Very, very close ranged, which makes it difficult to hit very many things, and S3 AP 5 wounds are mostly forgettable anyway unless you’re a guardsmen.
--Living Lighting: It’s an autocannon in psychic power. Only you often get more than 2 shots, and can shoot someone across the game store, if you’re playing apocalypse.
--Storm Caller: You could take this, and give nearby units a cover save. Or you could, you know, sit in area terrain.
--Tempest’s Wrath: Deep Strike and anti-Jump infantry. Unfortunately, GW hasn’t errata’d how this interacts with all the new types. Does this affect Jump Packs anymore? Jump Monstrous Creatures? What about Fliers? Probably the best choice for your second power if you took a Master of Runes unless you’re planning to force weapon a lot of stuff.
--Fury of the Wolf Spirits: Funny, but not terribly effective. Smite from the BBB is a better terminator killer, and the morale save isn’t a huge deal.
--Murderous Hurricane: All things said, probably a better pick than Thunderclap or Tempest’s Wrath, since it does a lot of the same things, but kills more people.
--Jaws of the World Wolf: Alright, now this is a terminator/Bike killer. Takes some work to position it but it can potentially annihilate a whole bunch of units. Also liable to induce Rage in Necron, Tau and Ork players.
-Weaponry choices: Non-divination Rune Priests are probably going to use their Psychic powers instead of the gun you gave them, but Diviners will appreciate a Storm Bolter or combi-weapon
-Runic Armor vs Terminator Armor: At the same price, terminator armor is arguably the better choice, because you get a 5+ Invulnerable save you otherwise wouldn’t have.
-Chooser of the Slain: Yes. Infiltration denial and +1 BS for only 10 points. Excellent.
Warlord Traits: Being more shooting focused than Wolf Lords, Rune Priests are probably going to take command.

Wolf PriestAn excellent support HQ. You’ve got fearless, preferred enemy (Infantry is the default choice, although obviously you will want to choose whatever the squad he’s in is most likely to be shooting and assaulting). The only Space wolf HQ model that comes with an invulnerable save out of the box, you also get a Power Maul, and can pay only a few points to also give his squad stealth and outflank. An excellent choice when you need a cheap HQ, since these guys don’t really need much in the way of upgrades. Just give him meltaboms for tank killing, a Wolf tail talisman for psychic defense, and maybe runic armor, and bang. Instant HQ. Of the four Space Wolf HQ choices, Wolf Priests are probably best qualified to lead squads of Blood Claws and their brethren, so this is probably where you go for a Jump Pack or Biker HQ.
Warlord Traits: Personal is tempting for some of the broken stuff, but on the other hand, you have a decent chance of getting something pointless like a 1 or a 3.

Wolf Guard Battle Leader Cheaper Wolf Lord. For 30 points less, you drop a point of WS, an attack, a wound, and a point of leadership. You’ve also got a different selection of sagas, and lose access to the belt of Russ (Storm Shields are better anyway). Ultimately, you take Wolf Guard Battle Leaders if you want a Wolf Lord but find yourself 30 points or so over budget.
[b]Warlord Traits[b]: Command or Personal, for the same reason as Wolf Lords (although Master of Manoeuvre is kind of pointless considering you could take Saga of the Hunter instead).

Unique HQ Characters

Spoiler

Logan Grimar: Compared to a Wolf Lord of the same price… Well, pricing Logan Grimnar is hard, because he somehow has 2 sagas, and a funky close combat weapon. I’d estimate a similarly equipped Wolf Lord would be about 35 points or so more than a similarly equipped Wolf Lord. For those thirty five points, you’ve got Stubborn, an extra attack, the ability to mix up attacks between his frost blade/powerfist, a floating special rule you can change each turn, and you can give every space wolf nearby an extra attack for one player turn. Finally, Wolf Guard are troops if he’s in your army, which frees up elites slots for more Dreadnaughts. A decent, but highly expensive choice.
Warlord Trait: Probably personal, as command is mostly made irrelevant by the special abilities he can grant.

A Word on Loganwing (Wolf Guard Terminator Spam)

Spoiler

If you’re like a lot of people, when you noticed that Space Wolves got cheap terminators, and that Logan Grimnar makes Wolf Guard troop choices, you started thinking about an all terminator space wolves list. Let’s start with the advantages; Wolf Guard Terminators are cheap, at 33 points each. They also have the best terminator delivery system in the game; The Drop pod. Half your terminators in on turn 1, and they don’t mishap? Excellent!

Unfortunately, this is a trap. First off, that 7 point discount gets eaten up on the drop pod, because terminators. Do. Not. Footslog. Still, that’s not so bad, is it? Well, you’re also spending points on Logan. Don’t get me wrong, Logan’s awesome, but he’s expensive. Belial is way, way cheaper, and Draigo is similarly priced. And Deathwing Terminators and Paladins are much stronger than Wolf Guard terminators. Why? Well, paladins are, well, Paladins, and Deathwing terminators, for that seven points, can get a storm shield and thunder hammer. I really shouldn’t have to explain why that’s good. For comparison, though, Space Wolves are paying 30 points for a Hammernator setup, after they buy the terminator itself. So, Logan Wing can be done. But it’s not a competitive army

Njal Stromcaller: Compared to a normal Rune Priest, you’re only paying 40 more points for him if he’s in power armor, or 65 points if he’s in terminator armor (although he’s getting a 4+ invul save for that, so it’s probably worth it there). What do you get? Access to every power in the codex (Never, ever swap out these powers for 2 from the BBB), a Runic weapon that cancels psychic powers 2 times out of 3, A kind of silly defense against assault from his Birdy, and a storm effect that can have a wide variety of effects on enemy units close to him. A decent choice, but again, pricy.
Warlord Traits: Njal is strong enough in close combat that Personal is probably the right choice.

Ragnar Blackmane: Compared to a vanilla Wolf Lord, the protagonist of the Space Wolf novels comes in at only 35 points more expensive, if you count Incredible reflexes as basically a belt of Russ. For these 35 points, he gives his squad +1d3 attacks on the charge, furious charge, and can give most of your front line furious charge for a turn once a game. Also, he can bring a pair of slightly improved Fenrisian wolves with him. A decent choice, as long as you keep him in a squad with a rapid fire or heavy weapon, to ensure he only charges things you want to charge.
Warlord Traits: Command, probably. A full half of the personal traits are pointless for him, although the remaining three are tempting.

Ulrik the Slayer: Compared to a Wolf Priest, he’s made a lousy choice for his oath of war (Things that Saga of the Beastslayer affects), he wasted points on a plasma pistol and a wolftail necklace (Well, actually, with his oath of war wasted, those points aren’t really wasted). Oh, and an improved Saga of Majesty effect. However, I5 means he actually gets a fair bit of mileage out of his Power Maul. Not the greatest choice outside of fluffy lists.
Warlord Traits: Personal, easily.

Canis Wulfborn: Compared to a Wolf Guard Battle Leader with the same wargear, he’s actually the same price, although he gives up a point of leadership (making him no higher LD than a group of Thunderwolves) for two more attacks. He also makes Fenrisian Wolves around him LD 8, which means they no longer turn tail and run the first time someone points so much as a lasgun at them. He’s primarily an anti-infantry character, although for some reason, unlike most thunderwolf riders, he always has rending. If you feel you need someone to butcher unled infantry blobs, he’s your guy. Challenges will kind of waste his enormous number of attacks, though. And unless he goes first, they're probably going to kill him, too.
Warlord Traits: Definately Personal. He has no business with Command traits.

Bjorn the Fell-Handed: Bjorn is to Venerable Dreadnaughts as Venerable Dreadnaughts are to regular Dreadnaughts; That is, horribly overcosted for what he does. Sure, a Dreadnaught with an invulnerable save is sweet, but for the same price, you could have 2 fully equipped regular dreadnaughts, and still have points left over for other stuff. An awesome model, but not something you want to run.
Warlord Traits: ... I dunno. Both Command and Personal have a fair number of useless abilities for him. One more reason not to take him, I guess.

Elites

Spoiler

Wolf Guard: I’m going to just go on record here saying that if you don’t take a unit of Wolf Guard in your army… You’re not quite doing it wrong, but you’re very, very close. Space Wolf troops don’t have sergeants, because you have wolf guard instead. With Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, you have a large number of choices for wargear. Basically, any loadout you’d consider on a Wolf Lord is also viable here, although Wolf Guard also get a lot more mileage out of their cheaper combi-weapons. The Pistoleer build (2 Plasma Pistols) is also a lot better here, since you don’t waste as much close combat potential here. Ultimately, pick a build that complements the squad they’re going to lead. Also, Mark of the Wulfen is actually good on Wolf Guard.

Oh, right, Wolf Guard aren’t just sergeants. Power Armored Wolf Guard are… well, they’re not sternguard. But they’re still a serviceable unit for Suicide Drop pod attacks with combi-meltas. As for wolf guard Terminators, I’ve already gone into them a bit. They’re not bad by any means, but they’re not something you build your army around. Keep them cheap, and don’t go overboard. If you're spending much more than 40 points per model... You should probably start cutting excess wargear.

-Arjac Rockfist: Compared to a Wolf Guard battle Leader… He’s actually cheaper, and does roughly the same thing. Admittedly, he can only join one unit, and he doesn’t get a 2+ Look Out, Sir. Still, he’s cheap, doesn’t take up an HQ slot, and has a S10 Thunder Hammer. What are you complaining about? A very good choice… If he has something to join.

Dreadnaught: Space Wolf Dreadnaughts are, well, Dreadnaughts. You typically use the same build as your fellow marines, either going 2 twin-linked autocannons, or a Multi-melta and heavy flamer (although since you don’t have as much cover busting as other marines, 2 heavy flamers is a decent choice as well). Wolf Tail talismans are worth purchasing. Wolftooth necklaces… Not so much. The real problem with Dreadnaughts is that you need more than one, and they’re competing with a lot of other units for Elites slots.

Venerable Dreadnaught: Overpriced for +1 WS and +1 BS and the unreliable venerable ability. A pity, as the model looks pretty cool. Of course, most people won’t care if you use a venerable dreadnaught model as a regular one.

Iron Priest: Let me start off by saying that Iron Priests should not be riding in vehicles. Because, well, they take up all the space on it, and transports have better things to do than cart the Iron Priest around. However, Iron priests do have an alternative vocation; Thunderwolf Cavalry lite! A thunderwolf mounted iron priest with 4 cyberwolves taking hits for him is basically a small unit doing what thunderwolf cavalry do, but for only 155 points (less than half what you’d pay for a unit of proper thunderwolf cavalry). The downside? You’ll need to convert the Iron Priest model so he’s on a thunderwolf, and it’s not the easiest conversion.

Wolf Scouts: Ah, Wolf scouts. In 5th edition, a pack of wolf scouts was a no-brainer. Now, with the changes to reserves, that’s no longer the case. However, they’re still pretty good. As options go, you can try to build an outflanking melta-squad to chase off tanks, or you can try to infiltrate them. If you want sniper rifles, though, I’d honestly recommend just taking an allied detachment of Codex Marines, as they’ll be cheaper and have access to camo cloaks and Telion.

Lone Wolf: Lone Wolves are space wolves who are the sole survivor of their pack, who have sworn to avenge their pack or die trying (probably the latter). With that in mind, they’re tough to kill (A 2 wound terminator with feel no pain and eternal warrior, and 2 Fenrisian Wolf Bullet shields can take a lot of firepower to put down). The important thing with Lone Wolves is to avoid going to expensive, as around 150 points you have better options like an Iron Priest or a pack of Long Fangs with Missile Launchers.

Troops

Spoiler

Grey Hunters: Grey hunters are fantastic. They’re durable, good in both close combat and at shooting, and they’re not terribly expensive, to boot! (A comparison; 9 Grey Hunters and a Wolf Guard Pack leader is 153 points. A Full tactical squad is 170 points). Grey Hunters are great at defensive deployments, and they’re good on the offense, too. Most of their wargear options are good, with one exception; Plasma Pistols and Power fists/weapons are better put on the Wolf Guard, to take advantage of him being a character (And he gets a discount on them, to boot!). Just a reminder, though. If you want to put them in a rhino, you take 9 of them and a Wolf Guard Pack leader. That means no second special weapon.

Blood Claws: Well, you can’t have every unit be awesome. Blood Claws are… kind of bad. Basically, they’re an ork mob in power armor. That needs to be babysat (probably by a Wolf Priest, to counteract WS 3). Ork mobs aren't doing that well at the moment. If you must take Blood Claws, you’re going to need to take several packs, several Wolf Priests to lead them, and probably a couple of land raiders to get them from point A to point B.

-Lukas the Trickster: Compared to a Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Lukas is 40 points pricier, and locks you in at LD 8. For that, he forces your opponent to re-roll to hit him in challenges. And… when he dies, there’s a 50-50 chance he takes everything in base contact with him. In 5th edition, this was pretty decent, as chances were he was going to be the last thing in his squad left alive. Now, though? He’ll probably take several of his buddies with him if he dies in a challenge. Plus, to take him, you had to take blood claws in the first place, so that’s another strike against him.

Fast Attack

Spoiler

Thunderwolf Cavalry: Durable, fast, and bringing a ton of S5 Rending attacks to the table, Thunderwolf Cavalry are a very strong choice (So strong, if you bring more than one unit to the table, you’ll probably get dirty looks). Generally speaking, you go with a power fist and 2 thundershields for wargear (Although with preciscion shots, you might want a third thundershield on the powerfist as well). The important thing here, though, is ensuring your opponent has to split his fire. Durable they may be, but they only have 10 wounds total at 350 or so points, so you need to ensure your opponent can’t just pour all his fire into the thunderwolves. This is where another threat comes in. Be it another unit of cavalry, an Iron priest with his cyberwolves, some Wolf Guard in a drop pod, or some other death star unit, just make sure your opponent has to deal with several threats at the same time. Actually, this is probably a good suggestion in general, really. Also, stay away from vindicators.

Swiftclaw Bikers: Well, they’re not thunderwolves. They’ve got comparable mobility, similar durability (substituting numbers for a second wound), and each biker can make as many attacks as a thunderwolf can, although without the S5 rending (and they’re WS 3 as well). The problem with Swiftclaws (aside from the fact you have to scratch build them from leftover wolf bits and bike kits) is that they’re trying to do the same as Thunderwolf Cavalry do, but less proficiently. 20 S5 rending attacks and 5 S10 power fist attacks will do pretty much the same thing 70 S4 attacks will do (I’m adding in the twin-linked bolters here) to infantry, but the former will be much more effective against vehicles. Also, unlike Skyclaws, these guys are equally incapable of climbing stairs.

Skyclaw Assault Pack: They lack some of the striking power of Swiftclaws (As they have to choose to move 12” or hammer of wrath, and they lack relentless twin-linked bolters), but they’re also cheaper. Unfortunately, those unspent points will probably go towards getting them a Wolf Priest to babysit them, as they can’t take Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, putting you at roughly the same price as a pack of swiftclaws. However, they can still climb stairs, which gives them a big advantage of swiftclaws, and is pretty much the only reason you’d take them over Thunderwolves.

Land Speeder Squadron: An alternative to Thunderwolves; Instead of being a fast moving close combat threat, Land Speeders provide ranged firepower. A Land speeder Typhoon brings 2 Missile Launcher shots and a heavy bolter, and it can fire both at full BS, after moving 12”. With the changes to flat-out, this is also the fastest thing in the codex now, which makes it a reasonable pick if you know you’re going to be playing The Scouring.

Fenrisian Wolves: Putting wolves on a battlefield, even ones the size of horses, works about as well as you’d expect. Which is to say, they can certainly savage any infantry they get into combat with, but they have no real protection from bullets, they lack the intelligence to hold an objective (although they can still contest it), and they tend to run away at the first sign of something scary (I.E a round of lasgun fire from a squad of guardsmen). What makes up for this? Fenrisian wolves are cheap. Really cheap. Fenrisan Wolves are cannon fodder, pure and simple. Generally speaking, they need a force multiplier of some kind to work well; Canis Wulfborn works perfectly, giving them a high leadership value, I5, and letting you take them in troop slots.

Heavy Support

Spoiler

Long Fangs: Long Fangs are inexpensive long range anti-tank. They’re capable of penetrating the front armor of a vindicator, the side armor of a leman russ, and glancing land raiders. Wait, I forgot. Long Fangs don’t always come with Missile Launchers. Right… So, as you’ve gathered, Long Fangs with Missile Launchers are really good (take Flak Missiles when the errata comes out, while you’re at it). Other heavy weapons… Heavy Bolters are cheap, but reasonable at taking down fliers, infantry, and light armor. Not horrible, but a Missile Launcher does most of that and more for only 5 points more. Plasma Cannons are risky and unreliable, but a valuable source of anti-terminator fire. Lascannons are expensive, but they’re your only long range AV 14 killer. As for multi-meltas… There are ways to make these work (specifically, a drop pod with 6 Multi-melta long fangs, Arjac Rockfist for extra killing power, and Logan Grimnar to make everyone relentless), but outside of specific tactics, they’re too short range to work. This is probably the only Heavy Support choice foot wolves will be taking.

Predator: It does… Pretty much the same thing that long fangs do. But Long fangs do it better, since you have more shots. The Destructor variant will probably be passed over in favor of Long Fangs, while the Annihilator pattern should probably be replaced with a vindicator.

Whirldwind: Admittedly, Space Wolves do have a bit less cover busting than Codex Marines do, but, like Codex Marines, there are better options. Pass.

Vindicator: Now, this is something that can compete with Long Fangs for heavy support slots in Mechanized-wolves. Jaws of the World Wolf can do a passable job as anti-biker anti-terminator, but a Vindicator will do a much, much better job. Word of Advice, though. What I said about Thunderwolves goes double here; If you take one Vindicator, take two or three. Seriously. Shutting of FNP bikers is really, really good.

Land Raider (all variants): Land Raiders are used primarily because they’re assault vehicles. Thing is, Space Wolves don’t need them as much because their terminators can ride in drop pods. Probably not worth taking, although if you must, the Land Raider redeemer is probably the best choice, and you’re going to need two.

Dedicated Transports

Spoiler

Rhino: It’s a rhino. It’s a cheap way to get infantry from point A to Point B, while they fire their guns out the roof. Not much to be said.

Razorback: The Razorback is primarily for Long Fangs now, since they don’t have any use for the larger capacity of a Rhino. The Lascannon, Twin-linked plasmagun configuration is a potent amount of firepower in a small package, but it’s also fragile. They're also a reasonable choice for transports in an allied detachment, since they'll be cheep and still have something to do.

Drop Pod: Thanks to counter attack, Space Wolves are pretty good at launching drop pod assaults. Just keep in mind you should be taking 9 Grey Hunters in each squad, so you can fit a Wolf Guard in as well.

Comments? Scathing Criticism? Calls for my head on a platter?

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

There sure isn't.
Popular choice for a Belial model is Lysander, now in Failinecast for easier removal of Fist insignia, or Forgeworld's Commander Culln. And magnetising is best. Either Lightning Claws or Hammer and Shield - there's justification for both. I don't think I've ever seen anyone bring the Storm Bolter and Sword.

In the photos in the Dark Angels Codex, also, they seem to use the standard Space Marine Terminator Captain miniature to represent Belial, as it's a Terminator Captain, and Company Masters can't take Termy armour.

[Provengreil]

A few comments for squark's SW guide:

Runepriests: Living lightning/jaws, as a power combo, is probably as strong (offensively speaking) as you get in 40k, but as denial is now easier(every has deny, lighting no longer outranges fancyhats).

Lukas: This can be used as a bomb in the right situations. Drop pod in front of a land raider, make it try to tank shock. Death or glory, die. Gone. Similarly, this does not have a power limit: get him into combat with a titan or gargantuan creature in apocalypse and you're laughing. Ram him into biker nobs, paladins. whatever. Just treat him like a lone wolf, send him at the strongest thing you can find because he basically failed if he's still there when the match is over.

Wolf Scouts: Changes with the meta. Reserves can't assault now, but if the enemy is expected to be vehicle heavy it can still be devastating, and they'll come in early with greater reliability. Not melta sternguard, but efficient in such a capacity.

Blood Claws: Yes, they're bad, but if for some reason you're using and raiders, consider packing them with blood claws. An untouched horde of these guys coming out is very scary.

Predators: Absolutely worthless when standing next to longfang packs, just say it. Longfangs get more guns, easier cover saves, can point in multiple directions, not nearly as susceptible to melta or charges, and come much cheaper than their counterparts in other codexes.

[Squark]

Originally Posted by Provengreil

Runepriests: Living lightning/jaws, as a power combo, is probably as strong (offensively speaking) as you get in 40k, but as denial is now easier(every has deny, lighting no longer outranges fancyhats).

Eh, maybe this is my meta influencing things, but In my experience, I was usually in range of psychic hoods anyway when my opponent had them at all (also, you probably want yours close enough to use his runic weapon). Deny the witch is a minor nerf, true, but on the other hand, it was to make up for the traditional form of psychic defense becoming worse. I personally don't see the Lukas bomb being that reliable, given that he either has to take too many fellow blood claws for it to be cost effective, or he'll just get shot to death.

As for your other critiques... I'm pretty sure I mentioned most of those, actually, although only in passing.

[Timberwolf]

Well, big game tomorrow. As in 40k a side kind of big. My list is 4 pages long and spans 4 separate codices, 4 copies of Imperial Armour, a White Dwarf and a lot of annoyance. 2 Titans, 7 flyers, 3 full Drop pods of Sternguard, 4 Wolf lords, Deathwing, vendettas, Stormravens, Sanguinary Guard and Uncle Tom Cobleigh and alllllll.

The sad thing ?

It wasn't until I started making this list that I realised how much stuff I've got. I have no Tac squads at all in this list, only 1 Assault squad and hardly anything that can actually hold ground.

On the other hand, my opponents have a Chaos Reaver that needs to be Melta assassinated. 30 Combi Meltas should be enough, I hope.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Squark

Comments? Scathing Criticism? Calls for my head on a platter?

I can try.

Spoiler

Wolf Lord Storm Shields: A good choice, as you’ve got more attacks than most HQs, and you don’t have an invulnerable save.

I'd go so far as to say that for Wolf Lords it's kind of mandatory.

Terminator Armor: An alternative to runic armor. At first sight, it seems more expensive and not worth it. However, considering that you get a discount on weapons upgrades, and you can make those points up on the discount. However, you’re still giving up the ability to make sweeping advances, and ride in rhinos.

I tentatively disagree.

Wolf Lord in Rune Armour - 120 Points
Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour - 140 Points

Wolf Claw and Storm Shield
RA; +50 Points = 170
TA; +30 Points = 170
One of the best choices for a Foot-Lord, and comes out at the same price. The Rune Armour allows Sweeping Advance and ability to ride in Rhinos.

Power Axe and Power Maul, a Terminator Lord can't do.

Power Fist and Wolf Claw
RA; +45 Points = 165 Points
TA; +45 Points = 165 Points
...Not including the points for the Belt of Russ.

SO MANY DISCOUNTS!!! ...Just kidding, there are none.

The only thing a Terminator Lord can do that a Rune Armoured Lord can't do is bring Chainfists (which you pair with a Wolf Claw). But, Melta Bombs do exactly the same thing and give a ranged attack.

Belt of Russ: Look Out, Sir! Kind of makes this superfluous. Nice, but Wolf Lords are already an expensive unit.

So I heard you brought a PM/PA or WC/PF and didn't bring an Invulnerable? ...I immediately declare a Challenge. Fight me or lose all your attacks which you've been bragging about. The only way not bringing an Invulnerable is ever even remotely even an option is if you've brought Saga of the Bear and you're standing next to Arjac the entire game.

Rune Priest: Biomancy powerhouse.

I don't agree that this is a real thing, unless you put him on a Jump Pack or in a Bike, and roll him around with Thunderwolves. But Thunderwolves don't need the help.

Divination: Divination is, in my opinion, the best discipline in the BBB. Even if you prefer Telepathy, you have to agree that Prescience, Foreboding, and Misfortune are all fantastic powers.

Divination is tied with Telepathy for best set. It depends on your army build.

Wolf Guard Battle Leader lose access to the belt of Russ.

Which makes Storm Shields an important choice on Battle Leaders.

Canis Wulfborn: Challenges will kind of waste his enormous number of attacks, though.

Challenges destroy him. Rendering him utterly useless.

Arjac Rockfist: A very good choice… If he has something to join.

Calgar and Lysander, Allied with Logan, Njal (two HQs per slot) and Arjac.

...Let's rock. Get it, 'rock'? ...I'm hilarious.

Wolf Scouts: As options go, you can try to build an outflanking melta-squad to chase off tanks

That's pretty much all they can do now. They ate a hard nerf. And now Wolves are running Wolf Guard and two Dreads.

Grey Hunters: Most of their wargear options are good, with one exception; Plasma Pistols and Power fists/weapons are better put on the Wolf Guard, to take advantage of him being a character (And he gets a discount on them, to boot!)

Make sure to point out that if you're in a Rhino or Drop Pod, you lose access to double special weapons for being 9+1 instead of 10, so take that into account when you're building a Wolf Guard for that squad.

Thunderwolf Cavalry: Durable, fast, and bringing a ton of S5 Rending attacks to the table, Thunderwolf Cavalry are a very strong choice (So strong, if you bring more than one unit to the table, you’ll probably get dirty looks).

Be on the lookout for triple Vindicators.

...I could swear somebody once told me that Vindicators weren't needed though and Predators do the same thing...How silly.

Vindicator: Now, this is something that can compete with Long Fangs for heavy support slots in Mechanized-wolves. Jaws of the World Wolf can do a passable job as anti-biker anti-terminator, but a Vindicator will do a much, much better job. Word of Advice, though. What I said about Thunderwolves goes double here; If you take one Vindicator, take two or three.

Is your Meta-Game full of turdburgers who run Nob Bikers, Bike Commands, or 20+ Blood Angel Bikes? Plague Marines got you down? Then call 555-VIND-I-CATE now!

Razorback: The Razorback is primarily for Long Fangs now, since they don’t have any use for the larger capacity of a Rhino.

Or Allies. Because you want your Grey Hunters to actually have a point otherwise they're just a Rune Priest/Thunderwolf Tax.

Any thoughts on who the best Allies for Space Wolves are?
(Hint; It's Eldar, Imperial Guard or Space Marines, but I want you to tell me why.)

Which Warlord column is best for Wolves? Would a Special Character's abilities change what column you would normally pick?

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

In the photos in the Dark Angels Codex, also, they seem to use the standard Space Marine Terminator Captain miniature to represent Belial, as it's a Terminator Captain, and Company Masters can't take Termy armour.

I haven't seen that model in use in a long time. His blister is on the shelf at GW and hasn't moved for a while. That particular model is a phenomenally old sculpt, and I believe that it is quite a bit smaller than the new Terminator models...Although maybe they fixed that when they swapped him to Finecast?

[Renegade Paladin]

Observation: Units with Move Through Cover don't have to take dangerous terrain tests. Give storm troopers Reconnaissance or veterans Harker and drop them out of flat-outing Valkyries all day long.