Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" - Page 6

Squark · 07-10-2012, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

Well, the thing for him to do would be to take Ravenwing units and start them on the board, and keep all his Terminators in reserve (with the Ravenwing being the half that must be deployed). But yeah, all-Deathwing surprise attacks don't work anymore, which is too bad really, since it's what they're fluff-wise supposed to do.

Edit:
Wait. Does this mean that if Chaos Daemons don't go first, they automatically lose?

Game Turn. NOT player turn.

So, no, GW is not totally incompetent in that regard.

Wyntonian · 07-10-2012, 10:40 AM

Forgive me for interrupting again with questions, but would someone mind explaining for me the difference between a cover, armor and invulnerable save? I've read that section a couple times now, and I'm not really getting it.

shadowwalker64 · 07-10-2012, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyntonian

Forgive me for interrupting again with questions, but would someone mind explaining for me the difference between a cover, armor and invulnerable save? I've read that section a couple times now, and I'm not really getting it.

Okay, these all come under saves, as a general group. Basically, if you are successfully wounded, you take 1 save. You may not take more than one type of save for a wound, so every time you are wounded, you take an armour, an invun OR a cover save. The difference between all of them is how they are negated by certain things.

An armour save is something noted at the end of a unit profile, and is the most common save. It is negated by AP on weapons, which ignore your armour save if the AP is equal to or lower to your armour save number.

Invun saves are not noted down through unit profile (normally) but are often conferred through wargear or special rules. They work exactly like an armour save, but they are unaffected by AP and the majority of other rules (some weapons on special characters have rules which negate or reduce the effectiveness of Invuns). They are often notated as 3++, 4++, 5++ or 6++ depending on the save (a double plus instead of a single one)

Cover save is a save that is artificially acquired through the game and is determined by special rules (like bikes, smoke screens on vehicles) or by terrain. What this save is is noted in parts of the rulebook or wargear, as the case may be. It works, once again, exactly like an armour save, but is once again unaffected by AP. Many weapons (notably template weapons) ignore cover saves.

Eldan · 07-10-2012, 11:16 AM

Armour saves are an ability of the model and its equipment. Some weapons pierce armour of a certain value, however, so it does not always apply. E.g. power armour gives a 3+ save, a power weapon is AP 3, so it ignores everything 3+ or worse. Ergo, it ignores power armour.

Cover saves you usually get from being in some kind of terrain, like a forest or fortification. They apply even against AP weapons, but are ignored by some other kinds of weapons. A few pieces of equipment can give you cover saves.

Invulnerable saves usually apply against all kinds of weapons.

So, basically, the difference is what they apply against. You always use the best. If your model has cover 4+ and armour 3+, it normally uses armour. Against an AP 3 weapon, it uses the 4+ cover instead, since that is not ignored.

HoldTheLine31 · 07-10-2012, 11:38 AM

Hello everyone! Long time lurkers first post.

A few months a go me and several friends decided to join a gaming group and get started with 40k. Last week my first batch of minies arrived and now I'm assembling my guardmen

I really like the setting and enjoyed reading some of the fluff. As far as gaming goes I do lean a bit towards the powergamer mindset, and like to crunch the numbers and min-max as long as it fits within the frame I've set (backstory, theme, feel of the army/character).

So here are two sample army lists for 1850pts:

Spoiler

The idea is to have a balanced all commers list with lots of options. I've tried to have 2-3 Units for dealing with each target typ and the psyker will use Telepathy because of the amazing synergy with the PBS.

All advice is welcome.

Wyntonian · 07-10-2012, 12:09 PM

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lower number is better for saves?

Does AP do anything if, say, you have AV 3+ and an AP of 2?

This seems kinda backwards compared to 3.5, which is to be expected I guess.

Eldan · 07-10-2012, 12:10 PM

Indeed it does!

3+ means if you roll a 3 or higher, the save is made. 4+ means four or higher. So the 3+ is better.

Similarly, AP 2 pierces everything 2+ or worse. AP 3 pierces everything 3+ or worse. So, AP 2 is better.

Hootman · 07-10-2012, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoldTheLine31

So here are two sample army lists for 1850pts

...Wow, in 5th Edition, Primaris Psykers were kind of terrible, weren't they? No Psychic Defense, and generally weak powers on a Ld 9 model. Guess it's a good thing 6th came along and gave them the gift of real powers.

Anyways, about your lists--I feel you've made one important mistake. Your troops all appear to be of the Combine Squads type, but your Company Command Squad hasn't taken a Chimera (Command Vehicle is a great rule), nor have you taken any Vox's to make sure the Order come through. Anyone who sees you handing out Orders left and right is going to come gunning right for your Commanders--I know it's what I would do.

Other than that, your lists look alright. I'm not sure if the Veterans should be the ones with the Plasma, though--not when the Command Squad could mech up and go hunting with Feel No Pain to back them up if when the guns overheat. That does have the obvious disadvantage of putting your CCS closer to the action, though...

Renegade Paladin · 07-10-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoldTheLine31

Hello everyone! Long time lurkers first post.

A few months a go me and several friends decided to join a gaming group and get started with 40k. Last week my first batch of minies arrived and now I'm assembling my guardmen

I really like the setting and enjoyed reading some of the fluff. As far as gaming goes I do lean a bit towards the powergamer mindset, and like to crunch the numbers and min-max as long as it fits within the frame I've set (backstory, theme, feel of the army/character).

So here are two sample army lists for 1850pts:

Spoiler

The idea is to have a balanced all commers list with lots of options. I've tried to have 2-3 Units for dealing with each target typ and the psyker will use Telepathy because of the amazing synergy with the PBS.

All advice is welcome.

The Master of Ordnance will never hit anything. Ever. Just so you know that.

Lowkey Lyesmith · 07-10-2012, 05:51 PM

Hmm, question regarding IG and their command squads. Would bodyguards be worth considering now? I'm thinking that the fact that they automaticaly take the hits for the Officer make them actually worth having.

Cheesegear · 07-10-2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooManySecrets

Cheesegear, do you think it's worth it to give anti-armor duty to your Plague Marines with 2 meltaguns, or do you think it would be better to give it to longer range options? I'm thinking of this in the context of a mostly Plague Marine list.

The issue with Chaos Marines is that they don't have long-range anti-tank. The only decent set of Lascannons that you've got are Obliterators (and they're not good, see later). Everything else is Melta. That's why Stormravens make Chaos super-sad.

If you're going with 'mostly Nurgle', your anti-tank options are Deep Striking Terminators, which means Plague Marines in Rhinos driving forwards with an Icon, and if they're forwards then you'll want Meltaguns. Then your other choices are unmarked units of Bikes or Raptors (they don't suck! Yay!).

The only 'long-range' anti-tank Chaos have worth talking about are Havocs. with Autocannons. But fail completely when someone puts a pair of Land Raiders on the table - which is where the Melta comes in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowkey Lyesmith

Hmm, question regarding IG and their command squads. Would bodyguards be worth considering now?

What do you mean 'now'? They've always been worth taking.

HoldTheLine31 · 07-11-2012, 12:18 AM

I'm actually planning to use the Infantry as single 10man squads and not blobs. With the changes to objectives, cover and focus fire/wound allocation in 6th, it seems to me that blobs will be very unwieldy and just as prone to fleeing as 10man units without a commissar. As such the only unit I'd want to reliably pass orders would be the CCS, and it can't issue orders to itself from a Chimera (not sure about that). On the other hand you're right about the Voxnetwork and the command Chimera to order combined units, but it'll have to be tested if combined or single units are better now.

On the Master of Ordnance, yes he's a gamble and it's been bothering me while. I do hope to increase his chances to hit by targeting tanks and using Bring it Down to let him reroll scatter, and hopping that he hits something (the new blast rules are a big help here), but he still feels iffy. The question is with what should I replace him if I decide to.
In List one if i drop the tank upgrades too i could get another AC/GL Infantry squad, or a Mortar HWS for 60pts (are the Mortars any good?), or get Marbo.
In List two I'll be left with 35pts, so maybe tank upgrades, extra psykers, extra snipers, some plasma on the infantry, demo charges/carapace for the vets, bodyguards for the CCS, seekers for the sentinels?

Darius Macab · 07-11-2012, 01:29 AM

So apparently Paladins are amazing now, what do you guys think of this:

Spoiler

HoldTheLine31 · 07-11-2012, 02:10 AM

Well I'm new to the hobby, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
As far as i see it you're army will be really deadly and hard to kill, but will struggle with objective missions. Anything with more then 3 objectives (and missions can go to up to 6 or more, if I'm not mistaken) will be hard with just two units that can contest or score. However that may not matter if you can table your opponent.

Cheesegear · 07-11-2012, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darius Macab

So apparently Paladins are amazing now, what do you guys think of this:

Long story short; Not good.
In 1500 points, you've got 12 models and a Flyer on the board. I really can't see that going too well. And anybody who brings along an Aegis Defense Line is going to rock your world.

Squark · 07-11-2012, 08:44 AM

With only 12 models on the board and a single flier, you're going to take pretty heavy casualties, simply by virtue of the fact that anything that is not an aegis defense line will be aimed at your paladins. 2 wounds and a 2+ armor save are a lot less impressive when everything your opponent has is coming at you. All it takes is 1 lucky krak missile and a paladin is gone, and even bolterfire will eventually bring them down. And Plasma or something like Jaws of the World Wolf? Lots and Lots of dead paladins.

I don't know Grey Knights well enough to know if you should be running more, cheeper paladin units, or if Draigowing simply is too pricy to work at even 1500 points.

SynissterSyster · 07-11-2012, 09:00 AM

I got a question. I know how much people been saying that Webway Portals are nerfed as you cannot assault from them but I have an idea. Say you put in some Hellions and Talos (or something that has an auto wound weapon). Get the auto wound guys out first then have the Hellions clean up? Not first tern stuff but something useful, maybe?

Squark · 07-11-2012, 12:37 PM

So, here's a potential "teaching list" intended to teach new players the basics of the game without introducing them to a lot of complicated rules like psychic powers or character shenanigans or the like.

Spoiler

Does anyone spot any glaring advantages on either side?

Also, 1000 point Space Wolves list

Spoiler

So, that leaves me with 66 points left. Possible additions;

-1 more thunderwolf and a grey hunter in one of the small groups
-2 Grey Hunters in each of the small groups, and a wolf tail talisman on the rune priest
-3 More Long fangs, and split the two packs into a group of 5 and a group of 4.

EDIT: One amusing, if stupid, thing I noticed about specialist weapons; The weapon only cares if your other weapon has specialist weapon, not what it is, so you can use a Wolf Claw and a Thunder Hammer together to get an extra attack with either weapon. Granted, that's obviously not the intent, but there you go.

SynissterSyster · 07-11-2012, 01:12 PM

I am going to take a stab at Squarks list. Other then a five point difference between the two armies I would say the Wolves have a ranged advantage while the Necron's dont. Sadly I don't have a rule book with me but that is my guess.

DaedalusMkV · 07-11-2012, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squark

So, here's a potential "teaching list" intended to teach new players the basics of the game without introducing them to a lot of complicated rules like psychic powers or character shenanigans or the like.

Spoiler

Does anyone spot any glaring advantages on either side?

Are the Immortals running Tesla or Gauss? Tesla Immortals will pretty much result in the game going to the 'Crons five times in six because ten Tesla guns are going to handily outperform eight Bolters and a Plasma gun, and it'll take forever for the Marines to catch up to the fleeing Immortals. Gauss will probably result in the 'Crons losing, since they'll be outperformed both at range and in melee. That said, new players can be encouraged to use whatever tactics you want them to to make the intro interesting. As long as the 'Crons have Tesla and don't run away, it should be all good. It might be nice to throw a cheap speedy thing on either side to demonstrate different movement rules as well; say some Swiftclaws for the Marines and a Wraith or Destroyer for the 'Crons?

Zorg · 07-11-2012, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SynissterSyster

I got a question. I know how much people been saying that Webway Portals are nerfed as you cannot assault from them but I have an idea. Say you put in some Hellions and Talos (or something that has an auto wound weapon). Get the auto wound guys out first then have the Hellions clean up? Not first tern stuff but something useful, maybe?

I've been thinking of Reavers with their giant turbo-boost move enabling them to bladevane stuff and swing back around into cover would be a viable use of a portal. Not super-competative, but a good use.

Also I think night shields are more useful with pre-measuring allowing for better positioning as well as the change to night fighting.

Maquise · 07-11-2012, 09:23 PM

Alright, now I'm seriously thinking that Thousand Sons are my favorite army. Not that I'm in any position to do anything about it in the near future, but still.

I love their color scheme.
They have ridiculously cool models.
Their fluff really sticks with me.

My question is, what is it like to actually play them?

Gauntlet · 07-11-2012, 09:26 PM

I'm thinking of putting an army together for a tournament in a few months. It's new edition 40K with these caveats:
-1800 Points
-No Fortifications
-No Allies
-I'm also pretty sure that Missile Launchers will be able to use Flakk Missiles (though I need to get clarification on this)

With this in mind, I'm thinking of running the following pile of Wolves:

Spoiler

I'm not sure what to do with the last 65 points. In this list I took a Land Speeder (mainly for the mission where FA becomes scoring units) but I am thinking of dropping it for a Lone Wolf or cutting down somewhere else for a Rune Priest.
The assault cannon wolf guard would run with the Plasma foot sloggers, with the remaining 4 drop podding in with Njal on some poor unsuspecting battle line. The Storm Shield can tank most of the AP2 shots, and once the Combi-Meltagun has been used he can be an ablative wound for weaker fire.

I do feel I should have found space for Thunderwolves somewhere, really.

Cheesegear · 07-11-2012, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maquise

My question is, what is it like to actually play them?

Okay. Kind of. There are better choices.

Slow and Purposeful kind of really sucks since with AP3 Boltguns, firing on Overwatch is exactly what Thousand Sons really want to be doing. However, if you can manage it, firing Rapid Fire Boltguns and then charging is kind of good. Focus Fire when you can do it also means you'll be killing models straight up. Keep in mind that most Cover will mitigate AP3 making it nowhere near as good as it should be. And AGLs and Techmarines/Lysander/TfCs and/or Stealth completely negates AP3.

Plague Marines cost the same points, don't pay the premium for a Sorcerer and are T5 and take two saves 3+/5+FNP, instead of the one save 3+/4++. And Cover Saves make entire units of Invulnerables pretty pointless anyway. And Plague Marines can take Melta and Plasmaguns.

Ideally you only play Thousand Sons (as opposed to Chaos Marines with the Mark of Tzeentch) when you want to spam Sorcerers. Buy them Bolt of Change and then make rolls on the Telepathy table and that's about all you can really do.

Allies; Fateweaver. Fateweaver makes Thousand Sons better than Plague Marines. But then why don't you take Epidemius and make Plague Marines better than Thousand Sons?

Related Topic; Chaos Space Marine Icons don't actually help Chaos Daemons. And, frankly if you're going to try broken stuff like Fateweaver/Epidemius then most people are going to force the issue.

But, pretty much everything in this post is likely to change in a few months.

TooManySecrets · 07-12-2012, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Related Topic; Chaos Space Marine Icons don't actually help Chaos Daemons. And, frankly if you're going to try broken stuff like Fateweaver/Epidemius then most people are going to force the issue.

But, pretty much everything in this post is likely to change in a few months.

CSM Codex confirmed, or just reliable rumors? Or are you referring to something else?

HoldTheLine31 · 07-12-2012, 06:16 AM

What's everyone's opinion on Psychic Defence? Is the 6+ save enough? And What about countering blessings?

As I see it the only way to deal with Psykers (apart from blowing them up) is either an allied Rune Priest or a Farseer (unless your army is SW or Eldar in the first place).

The Priest with some Grey Hunters, doesn't really have any downsides apart from 24" range and maybe the cost if you go heavy on the upgrades.

The Farseer with Runes of Warding and Doom and 5DA would cost 155pts, and provide far superior protection, but unless you're DE or Tau, will screw your own Psyker. That wouldn't be a problem if the army does not have Psykers in the first place. Also the small DA unit with the Farseer seem a lot easier to kill then a Rune Priest in a Grey Hunter pack, however the Seer can just hide out of LoS and still provide all the benefits.

So what do you think, is Psychic Defence really needed, or is it better to just bring more guns and bodies to the table? And does the Farseer justify not using your own Psykers with his low cost, great protection and some marginal utility of the DA unit and his powers (I've chosen Doom in the example. because Eldar blessings only work on Eldar and only Battle Brothers can buffed by each others powers from the Divination Lore), or is the somewhat costly SW powerhouse the superior choice?

Cheesegear · 07-12-2012, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoldTheLine31

So what do you think, is Psychic Defence really needed, or is it better to just bring more guns and bodies to the table?

Psychic Defense is needed. Because Psychic Powers are by far one of the most powerful tools in the games and anything that can help you shut that down should be taken. Especially against Divination and Telepathy. The problem is, that most PD is rubbish except for Wolves and Eldar, but that doesn't actually change the fact that you still any help you can get. Not to mention that nearly all Psychic Defense comes packaged with the ability to use Powers of your own.

HoldTheLine31 · 07-12-2012, 07:14 AM

You're right Cheesegear, there are some stupidly powerful spells and combos to be found (Weaken Resolve and Psychic Scream wiping entire squads and instantly killing MC in a single blast, or a Swarmlord with +d3 S/I/A/T and eternal warrior and lots of others).
The more I think the better the Farseer becomes, even as an option for desperate/convenient allies:
1. By far the best PD.
2. Can be a cheep if you want just the PD and are low on points.
3. Even if you can't use Divination and Eldar buffs there's always Doom or you can really screw with your opponent by picking some Telepathy powers for a low cost.
4. By far the most resistant to Perils (Ghosthelm)

Zorg · 07-12-2012, 12:55 PM

And speaking of allies, Forge World released a brief update to cover how thier army lists can ally with each other.
It is rather sensibly done, so you can have a mad list combining the Dread Mod with regular Orks or Corsairs and (Dark) Eldar together working properly.

The lists themselves still need a good FAQing, but then again, who doesn't? hur hur hur.

bluntpencil · 07-12-2012, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorg

And speaking of allies, Forge World released a brief update to cover how thier army lists can ally with each other.
It is rather sensibly done, so you can have a mad list combining the Dread Mod with regular Orks or Corsairs and (Dark) Eldar together working properly.

The lists themselves still need a good FAQing, but then again, who doesn't? hur hur hur.

Tyrant's Legion should allow Blood Angels (Lamenters), but apart from that, it's good.