Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[Hootman]

Oh boy, Orks + Dread Mob! Now I can take EVEN MORE GROT TANKS.

...

I just have to build another 20 or 30 of the pesky little things...

And am I the only one who noticed that Deffkoptas in a Dreadmob get Buzzsaws for only 40% of what you pay in Codex: Orks? Goodness, that might make the darn things affordable.

[Zorg]

And here are the psyker updates.

Agree with you on the Blood Angels there Bluntpencil.

[lord_khaine]

And here are the psyker updates.

Wow, with those changes the Wraithseer just might become worth taking, It is going to be an expensive choice, but T8, W4, a 3+ /5++ save followed by a 4+ FNP can take a lot of punishment.

[MachineWraith]

So, how crippling would it be to NOT have flyers? I really want to put together a CSM list with Daemons as allies, but neither army gets any fliers (unless I missed something). Would an army like that just get destroyed by an army with flyers, or would it still work?

I'm leaning towards Nurgle, generally, if that helps.

[Hootman]

Originally Posted by MachineWraith

So, how crippling would it be to NOT have flyers?

Oh, not at all. Flyers aren't what you need to have--what you need is Flyer Defense. Scratch-build (or buy, if you're boring ) an Aegis with a Quad Gun or something, and you'll be fine.

Personally, I'm just going to field a whole mess of Lootaboys and hide them behind an unarmed Aegis and just Go To Ground any time they're legitimately threatened (2+ Cover, whee!). Three dozen Snap Shots, all day erry day.


Speaking of dumb things, does Feel No Pain protect against Perils? If I am remembering correctly, PotW ignores all armor/invul saves, but FNP is specifically identified as "not a type of save". May just have to stick Zogwort in a unit of Nobz/Gitz with a Dok (too bad he can't get a bike...).

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Just tried my first battle with 6:ed and got stomped good by guard. He brought 2 griffons, 1 basilisk and a vendetta to 750 points. Then we rolled Big guns never tire, ouch.

But anyway, I really like the new rules, my librarian was great fun and a Land speeder with two mult-meltas was even funnier (for one round, then it got blown up).

And I have to say, the Vendetta, just bloody amazing with the new rules. It's allways been good, but now, just amazing.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Hootman

Oh, not at all. Flyers aren't what you need to have--what you need is Flyer Defense. Scratch-build (or buy, if you're boring ) an Aegis with a Quad Gun or something, and you'll be fine.

Nearly everyone is buying/making an Aegis Line, and the people who aren't are only doing so because their group doesn't allow Fortifications - which is totally a fair call, unlike disallowing Allies. But, for most of us who have been playing the game for a while who have a ton of bits, use different things for the Quad Gun.

For example, Eldar players can grab four Starcannons. Although, now, that you need AP2, Eldar might think about using Shuriken Cannons instead. You still use the rules from the book, but, Eldar players wont look like they're bringing along Autocannons.


While we're talking about Eldar; The new rules for Power Weapons specifically say WYSIWYG. If you're the kind of person who is able to and/or would do this; Start re-modelling/bitz-grabbing your Howling Banshees with Power Mauls.

Sure, you're only AP4. But now your 'useless' Banshees are S5, I10, Concussive. You don't really need to be AP2 because you'll be dealing so many wounds - add Doom.

[SynissterSyster]

Please forgive my ignorance but bits grabbing? You can scratch build models? I thought just about everything had to be GW approved unless you are really short on models then proxy.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Originally Posted by SynissterSyster

Please forgive my ignorance but bits grabbing? You can scratch build models? I thought just about everything had to be GW approved unless you are really short on models then proxy.

As long as most of the model is built using GW bits it's not really a problem.

I built a Warboss for a friend using bits from a Venerable dredd, a normal Warboss and a Minataur from fantasy.

Worked like a charm

[Tome]

Originally Posted by SynissterSyster

Please forgive my ignorance but bits grabbing? You can scratch build models? I thought just about everything had to be GW approved unless you are really short on models then proxy.

Not even close.

GW stores will insist that your models be at least constructed from GW bits or made from scratch with plasticard and greenstuff. Independent retailers and gaming groups will usually let you use bits from anywhere.

[Eldan]

If you play at a GW store, they will frown on using models from other companies. I play at a non-GW stop anyway, so nothing is stopping us from using, say, Reaper minis. And I have scratch-built a thing or two.

[lord_khaine]

And im playing in a private gaming club, so we can use whatever we dam well want to as long as it looks fitting.

While we're talking about Eldar; The new rules for Power Weapons specifically say WYSIWYG. If you're the kind of person who is able to and/or would do this; Start re-modelling/bitz-grabbing your Howling Banshees with Power Mauls.

I think that would depend on how dominating terminators get, but personaly i think its a better idea to keep the AP3 swords for power armor, and just bladestorm terminators down like usual.

[Eldan]

Yeah. Banshees, specifically, are the Eldar hard counter to marines that come close enough to be fought.

[bluntpencil]

Mathhammer time!

Spoiler

Okay, Howling Banshees attacking with Power Swords vs Power Armour...

100 attacks (4+hit) = 50 hits

50 hits (5+ wounds) = 16.666.... wounds. No saves.

16.67% of attacks will cause an unsaved wound.

With power mauls!

Spoiler

100 attacks (4+ hit) = 50 hits

50 hits (3+ wounds) = 33.333.... wounds.

33.33333 wounds (3+ save) = 11.1111... unsaved wounds.

11.11% of attacks wound.


Okay, so against power armour, a slight drop in killing potential.


However, against everything else in the game it rises dramatically. This includes Terminator Armour, Carapace Armour and more.

Comparing to Terminator Armour...

100 attacks (4+hit) = 50 hits

Swords

Spoiler

50 hits (5+ wounds) = 16.666.... wounds.

16.6666.... wounds (2+saves) = 2.77777... unsaved wounds

2.78% of attacks will cause an unsaved wound with power swords.

Mauls

Spoiler

100 attacks (4+ hit) = 50 hits
50 hits (3+ wounds) = 33.333.... wounds.

33.3333 wounds (2+save) = 5.5555 unsaved wounds.

5.6% of attacks will wound with a power maul.

Comparing to Power Armoured bikes....

Swords

Spoiler

100 attacks=50 hits
50 hits= 8.3333 wounds, no saves.

8.33% of attacks wound.

Mauls

Spoiler

100 attacks= 50 hits
50 hits= 25 wounds
25 wounds (3+ saves)= 8.3333333 unsaved wounds.

8.33% of attacks wound vs. T5 3+ armour.



And, more dramatically... versus any Imperial Guard unit.
Swords

Spoiler

100 attacks= 66.6666.... hits
66.66666... hits= 33.33333.... wounds. No saves.

33.33% of attacks will wound against WS 3 Imperial Guard.

Mauls

Spoiler

100 attacks=66.66666.... hits
66.66666 hits= 55.55555..... wounds. No saves.

55.6% of attacks will wound vs. T3 Carapace Armour or worse.

Okay, basically, Howling Banshees are better with power mauls as opposed to power swords against everything except Toughness 4, 3+ Armour, and even then, it's only a small loss. This isn't even factoring in Concussive.

They are immensely better against lighter armour. They are equally good against T5 3+ Armour. They are a little better against Terminators.

However, there is the problem that anyone that models Eldar with blunt, bludgeoning weapons is a complete tool.

[bluntpencil]

Thinking about Power Mauls there...

If you were to play a Blood Angels successor, and use Dante as your own Chapter Master (counts as) and remodeled the Axe Mortalis as a mace or such, would that be considered cheesy?

Power Axes suck for Initiative 6 hero types. Power Mauls don't.

[Squark]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Thinking about Power Mauls there...

If you were to play a Blood Angels successor, and use Dante as your own Chapter Master (counts as) and remodeled the Axe Mortalis as a mace or such, would that be considered cheesy?

Power Axes suck for Initiative 6 hero types. Power Mauls don't.

This is something you'd have to ask your metagame about. But I at least would be asking you for some wine to go with that cheese.

[lord_khaine]

Okay, basically, Howling Banshees are better with power mauls as opposed to power swords against everything except Toughness 4, 3+ Armour, and even then, it's only a small loss. This isn't even factoring in Concussive.

Funny then that T4 3+ is the most common type of enemy

Also, you didnt figure in the effect of Doom on the enemy, it swings things even more towards the swords in the case of killing marines.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

Funny then that T4 3+ is the most common type of enemy

Not anymore it isn't. Or it shouldn't be if your MG is halfway competitive.

Top armies;
Terminators - any kind. 2+ Armour. While not Terminators, Sanguinary Guard also get a word in here too.
Imperial Guard - T3, no armour.
Plague Marines - T5

However, even with Mauls, Howling Banshees are still not the best choice and you're still better off with 3 units of Fire Dragons, or 2 and a unit of Scorpions. If you really the Banshees, make use of the Allies rules and bring some Incubi instead.

[Eldan]

I barely ever see Termies. I see Marines with a unit of termies or two, sure. But mostly I see space wolves, tyranids, necrons, tau and eldar. So, I think if I played Banshees, I'd keep them with swords. I think pretty much everyone here agrees that Marines and IG are boring fluffwise. I think the common wording goes "We already play Fantasy, if we have to play 40k, let's play something that actually looks like SciFi."

[lord_khaine]

Not anymore it isn't. Or it shouldn't be if your MG is halfway competitive.

Even if the MG is competetive, then it still doesnt mean that everyone can afford to and want to get rid of all their old PA models, so no.

However, even with Mauls, Howling Banshees are still not the best choice and you're still better off with 3 units of Fire Dragons, or 2 and a unit of Scorpions. If you really the Banshees, make use of the Allies rules and bring some Incubi instead.

Yes, the transport nerf was a heavy hit to banshee's, so Scorpions or harlequins may be a better pick, depending on the metagame, but that wasnt what we were discussing.

Anyway, i just realised you made a mistake in the analysis of your mathhammer Bluntpencil, you find that swords have a 16.6% wound rate, while mauls have 11.1%.

You then call it a slight drop in killing potential, when your own numbers show that swords would kill around 50% more marines than mauls would

[Maugan Ra]

Secondary objectives are quite interesting, I've found. Last game I played, every available capturing unit ended up dying, so the game rested on who could grab the secondary objectives in the time remaining. Bloody Land Raider got Linebreaker for my opponent, and he ended up killing my warlord through the use of the new wound allocation roles and my inability to pass a 2+ look out sir roll.

I could only get first blood, because the pain in the backside Chaos Terminator Lord just would not bloody die, no matter how often I shot it. So overall, something to bear in mind in games that look to run close to a draw.

[evisiron]

Secondary objectives are certainly interesting. I had a test game there were my 2+ save, T6 Necron Destroyer lord got killed my a vindicator shell and 3 bolters.

"Oh no, my lord died" suddenly gets combined with "...which gives my opponent First Blood and Warlord Slayer!"

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

Even if the MG is competetive, then it still doesnt mean that everyone can afford to and want to get rid of all their old PA models, so no.



Yes, the transport nerf was a heavy hit to banshee's, so Scorpions or harlequins may be a better pick, depending on the metagame, but that wasnt what we were discussing.

Anyway, i just realised you made a mistake in the analysis of your mathhammer Bluntpencil, you find that swords have a 16.6% wound rate, while mauls have 11.1%.

You then call it a slight drop in killing potential, when your own numbers show that swords would kill around 50% more marines than mauls would

That's a good point, but 150% of 'next to nothing' is still 'next to nothing'.

If you compare that to the 2.78% vs Termies and 5.6% vs Termies, that's 100% difference. Mauls kill double the Terminators. That's a big difference too.

Personally, I find the Guard comparison most interesting.

Yeah, swords are best against T4 3+ armour, but only by a little. Add in concussive... and it gets better. Doom, like you have said, could alter this, but Space Wolves might negate that.

Mauls are better against anything that isn't T4 3+ armour, by quite a bit.

I would say 'check yo metagame' but I won't.

I will, instead, say 'take swords and don't be an ass'.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Squark

This is something you'd have to ask your metagame about. But I at least would be asking you for some wine to go with that cheese.

Personally, last edition, I had contemplated converting Dante to wield a sword, since axes aren't too elegant looking.

Now I would feel guilty doing so.

[Gauntlet]

Originally Posted by Gauntlet

I'm thinking of putting an army together for a tournament in a few months. It's new edition 40K with these caveats:
-1800 Points
-No Fortifications
-No Allies
-I'm also pretty sure that Missile Launchers will be able to use Flakk Missiles (though I need to get clarification on this)

With this in mind, I'm thinking of running the following pile of Wolves:

Spoiler

HQ

Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour

Wolf Guard Battle Leader 170
Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Blade
Saga of the Beastslayer, 2 Fenrisian Wolves

Elites
5 Wolf Guard 420
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Combi-Melta
Terminator Armour, Wolf Claw x2
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod

Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

Fast Attack

Thunderwolf 55
Meltabombs

Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

----
1795 Points

The assault cannon wolf guard would run with the Plasma foot sloggers, with the remaining 4 drop podding in with Njal on some poor unsuspecting battle line. The Storm Shield can tank most of the AP2 shots, and once the Combi-Meltagun has been used he can be an ablative wound for weaker fire.

Shuffled things up a little- dropped the second foot slogger unit for a Battle Leader and Thunderwolf with two Fenrisian Wolves to be the hammer to the terminators' anvil. I'm not sure whether it's worth it though, would be nice to have another troops choice, or some Wolf Scouts (woo making Acute Senses useful again!)
I would also really like to put a Master of Runes in there, I really like the look of the Divination discipline. I would really like to take a BA or DA Epistolary though, just so I can put Invisibility on a unit with Storm Caller up.

Still, any comments/criticisms?

[Squark]

Spoiler

HQ

Njal Stormcaller 270
Terminator Armour
Njal is too pricy, and not assault focused enough to run with the terminators. He belongs with Long Fangs

Wolf Guard Battle Leader 170
Thunderwolf Mount, Frost Blade
Saga of the Beastslayer, 2 Fenrisian Wolves
I'd replace him with a cheaper Rune Priest as a Divination user, or a second Living Lightning blaster with saga of the beastslayer
Elites
5 Wolf Guard 420
Arjac Rockfist
Terminator Armour, Combi-Melta
Terminator Armour, Wolf Claw x2
Terminator Armour, Storm Shield
Terminator Armour, Assault Cannon
Drop Pod
Not nearly enough combi-weapons, in my opinion. Also, I'd consider adding a few power armored guys and breaking them off into the melta-toting squads, because those rhinos are not going to last. And even if they do, a Combi-melta wolf guard is usually better than a second special weapon. And Njal has no business being with these guys.
Troops
10 Grey Hunters 160
Plasmagun x2
Fine, although I think you might want another squad
10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino

10 Grey Hunters 190
Meltagun x2
Rhino
As a frontline squad, these need wolf guard, and probably some other upgrades to. With only 2 rhinos... Just ditch the rhinos all together. Odds are, they're going to be wrecked the first turn anyway.

Fast Attack

Thunderwolf 55
Meltabombs
Lone thunderwolf is not going to do a whole lot. I'd drop it for wolf guard elsewhere

Heavy Support
Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher

Long Fangs 115
4x Missile Launcher
Good, but you know you can go 5 missile launchers to a squad, right?
----
1795 Points

[Gauntlet]

Originally Posted by Squark

Spoiler

Njal is too pricy, and not assault focused enough to run with the terminators. He belongs with Long Fangs

I was just liking the idea of dropping Njal's aura of 'you have no BS/can't move' on an anvil unit in the middle of the enemy army. I would have expected Njal's 24" range to make him pretty weak with Long Fangs, but maybe you're right. If I'm going to be running some drop Wolf Guard, what character (if any) would you suggest running instead?

I'd replace him with a cheaper Rune Priest as a Divination user, or a second Living Lightning blaster with saga of the beastslayer

Yeah, probably. I just didn't have anywhere to put he spare points I'd get for swapping him for a Rune Priest, and figured I might as well get someone more angry. I guess the footslogger squad could use some nice cover saves or something.

Not nearly enough combi-weapons, in my opinion. Also, I'd consider adding a few power armored guys and breaking them off into the melta-toting squads, because those rhinos are not going to last. And even if they do, a Combi-melta wolf guard is usually better than a second special weapon. And Njal has no business being with these guys.

Remember Arjac can throw his mallet for a melta-type shot that adds to my tank killing power. Mr. Storm shield should probably have a combi-melta at the very least.

Fine, although I think you might want another squad

Yeah, I had another before but cut it (and the landspeeder) for the Battle Leader and Thunderwolf. I think I'm used to slightly smaller games where 3 troops choices would be enough.


As a frontline squad, these need wolf guard, and probably some other upgrades to. With only 2 rhinos... Just ditch the rhinos all together. Odds are, they're going to be wrecked the first turn anyway.
If I ditch the rhinos, I don't think these squads are worth it. I would rather have Plasma if I have to foot slog, since getting into melta range won't happen early on (and by the time I get there late, either all the priority targets are down or I've probably already lost).

Lone thunderwolf is not going to do a whole lot. I'd drop it for wolf guard elsewhere
This guy was intended to join the Battle Leader so I could get a majority toughness of 5 in his unit, to help beef up the Fenrisian Wolves. If I cut the leader for a rune priest, I'll probably want this guy to go as well (or make the unit bigger). Maybe I should take some Typhoons for mobile fire support?

Good, but you know you can go 5 missile launchers to a squad, right?
I know, I cut the 6th guy from each of them when trying to do something with my spare points somewhere while I was shuffling things around. I'm not sure if that was the right decision to make.]

So... probably cutting the thunderwolf dudes and swapping the Rhino squads for more Plasma footsloggers gives me ~290 points to spend (or 130 if I buy a 4th plas-squad). If I add in a few more combi-weapons to the wolf guard and take the extra missile launchers for Long Fangs, I might be able to find enough points for a multi-melta landspeeder.. or I could drop Njal for a normal rune priest or two and reshuffle some more.

[lord_khaine]

That's a good point, but 150% of 'next to nothing' is still 'next to nothing'.

It is however not "next to nothing", but instead "just enough to win the combat" against most marine units.

And i while i agree on that mauls are better against terminators, then i dont think it matters due to the simple reason of them not being good enough to win the combat, and if thats the case, why bother then?

I would say 'check yo metagame' but I won't.

I will, instead, say 'take swords and don't be an ass'.

And i will then repeat my earlier comment of "take swords because they are the best choice anyway"

Anyway, how does wound allocation with mixed AP values work now, like if fx you have rending attacks?

[Tychris1]

Does anyone have a good Noise marine list as a parent army for a Daemon army? I've been meaning to try out the whole ally system especially with battle brothers.

[Renegade Paladin]

Originally Posted by Gauntlet

So... probably cutting the thunderwolf dudes and swapping the Rhino squads for more Plasma footsloggers gives me ~290 points to spend (or 130 if I buy a 4th plas-squad). If I add in a few more combi-weapons to the wolf guard and take the extra missile launchers for Long Fangs, I might be able to find enough points for a multi-melta landspeeder.. or I could drop Njal for a normal rune priest or two and reshuffle some more.

The multi-melta land speeder will have the same problem as the Rhinos only more so because there's only one of it. And without melta or lascannons, how will you deal with AV14?

I have observed Grey Hunters with meltaguns on foot doing very well for themselves. The Rhinos can go away, but keep the meltaguns. And take Thunderwolves (because they win).

Alternatively:

Logan Grimnar

Wolf Guard
-Arjac
-Whatever else you want

Long Fangs
-4 multimeltas
-Drop pod

Stick Arjac and Logan with the Long Fangs in the drop pod, make them Relentless, blow up any two tanks of your choice turn 1, and kick the hell out of anything your opponent has that tries to do anything about it. A Rune Priest also in the drop pod is optional but very, very lulzy.