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So basically, my thinking on this matter was that many classes have dead levels, especially martial classes, or else what you get in a level is usually boring or some small bonus. This isn't true of casters, but anyway. I got to thinking that adding new features to classes so that each class has cool new stuff every level would be way too much work and there are people who could do that, and have done that, better than me. But I wanted to do this in a way that could balance the game while also making each level more significant. Then it hit me.
My plan was to make each class scale to tenth level and, when it gets there, have all the features and roughly the same HP as it would have had if it were 20th level. I'm only doing this to the SRD base classes, by the way.
Alright, so the general changes that apply to every class. A feat is granted every other level. For HP, maximize HD at first level then go with the low-average for each level unless you like to roll HP. Instead of your con modifier adding to HP, every point above 10 or below ten adds to your HP. (So con of 15 adds 5. Con of 7 would subtract 3, but minimum of 1 on your HD still applies.) Finally, add your new BAB at each level to your HP. So, at level ten assuming a Con of 10, this is what each class looks like HP wise-
Close enough for my purposes. As for ability increases, those are still had at 4th and 8th level but you raise one mental and one physical whenever you would raise an ability. Further, everyone gets a flat +1 to all saves every 3rd level.
A few more tweaks. Any pre-req for a feat or somesuch is half as easy to obtain. Meaning your BAB, saves, or anything else except for CL is treated as double for getting new feats, (or 1 higher if it is 0.) This does mean your Fighter level is treated as double.
Also, bonus feats for everyone!
First level bonus feats:
Wizard: Toughness, Spell Mastery
Sorcerer: Toughness, Spell Focus
Psion: Inner Strength, Inner Strength
Bard: Extra Music, Weapon Focus
Rogue: Craven (without the drawback,) Weapon Focus
Psychic Warrior: Inner Strength, Weapon Focus
Druid: Self-Sufficient, Weapon Focus
Cleric: Extra Turning, Weapon Focus
Wilder: Psionic Body, Weapon Focus
Ranger: Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus
Monk: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus
Soulknife: Power Attack, Great Fortitude
Paladin: Extra Smiting, Weapon Focus
Fighter: Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus
Barbarian: Extra Rage, Weapon Focus
Alright. So, after this, certain classes are not affected. Namely, Sorcerer, Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Psion. Spell progression, abilities gained, etc. are all the same but the character still caps out at ten. (Check it out, no more 6th level spells!) For some classes I made tweaks other than just changing when abilities are gained. Anyway, here was where I had to reorder abilities. It may seem a bit random but there was thought involved. Nonetheless, I would really appreciate feedback and none of these changes are set in stone. If an ability isn't mentioned, assume it stays in the same place. Alrighty then, let's go.
Barbarian: Indomitable Will at 3rd level, Greater Rage at 6th level, Tireless Rage at 7th level, DR 2 at 9th level, Mighty Rage at 10th level
Fighter: Pick a second good save, 4+SP, and a bonus feat every level instead of every other
Monk: Full BAB, proficient in unarmed strikes, can substitute wisdom for attack rolls, and for unarmed damage up a damage die every 3rd level, not fourth. Abundant Step and Diamond Body at 3rd level, Greater Flurry at 5th level, Diamond Soul and Ki Strike (Lawful) at 6th level, Quivering Palm and Timeless Body at 7th level, Ki Strike (Adamantine) and Tongue of the Sun and Moon at 8th level, Empty Body at 9th level, and Perfect Self at 10th level
Paladin: Good Will save, Spellcasting progression starts at 1st level, Special Mount 4th level, Smite Evil 3/day 7th level, Remove disease 2/week 8th level, An additional use of smite evil is added at 9th level and 10th level
Psychic Warrior: Bonus feat at 3rd level, 6th level, and 9th level
Ranger: Spellcasting progression starts at 1st level, Animal Companion at 2nd level, Camouflage at 3rd level, Combat Style Mastery at 5th level, Hide in Plain Sight at 7th level
Rogue: Rogue ability every even level
Soulknife: Full BAB, Mind Blade Enhancement +1 at 4th level, Knife to the Soul at 5th level, Mind Blade Enhancement +2 at 6th level, Multiple Throw at 8th level, Mind Blade Enhancement +3 at 10th level
Wilder: d8 HD, Wild Surge +3 at 6th level, Volatile Mind 2 PP at 7th level, Wild Surge +4 at 8th level, Surging Euphoria +2 at 9th level, Volatile Mind 3 PP at 10th level
As for power, you end up with about the same featwise, about the same HPwise, the same as far as what abilities you have though many are at a lower numerical value, better saves but not level 20 saves, and normal BAB/SP for a character your level. So much more powerful than a level 10, but still less than a 20. My estimate is that you should take the parties level times one and a half, rounded down, to get CR. The same thing, (times one and a half,) for WBL. But I have not used it yet, I want some more help on it first.
Apparently I'm the first person to express an opinion? Well, I haven't looked at this in detail, but the general idea appeals to me. I've only ever had one character go above level 10; my impression is that the game is vaguely balanced up to that point and increasingly degenerates into "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" thereafter, while WBL becomes utterly ridiculous fast. This is all very preliminary of me, but it makes me think as though capping the game at level 10, or at least changing how it works thereafter, is a decent idea. It's basically what they did in 4E, as I understand; the first ten levels are the "heroic tier", then 10-20 is "paragon tier", and 30+ is "epic tier", with some differences between each. We already have differences for epic levels in 3E, so I see no reason not to create another plateau at level 10.
Why would you give the squishy casters feats like Toughness? Their squishiness is a major aspect of class balance. Also, do you get more bonus feats if you multiclass?
Another thing I'd like to note is Pathfinder. If you are worried about dead levels in class design, Pathfinder is a great place to start looking for inspiration.
__________________ "...I worry that modern gaming is gradually shrinking the wide spectrum of gameplay mechanics into a single narrow red bar with "KILL" written on it sideways. Exploration, navigation, puzzles, platforming, all gradually shrinking away until only one thing remains, being taken by the hand from room to room, moving on only when nothing remains alive in each one." - Yhatzee Crosshaw
Another thing I'd like to note is Pathfinder. If you are worried about dead levels in class design, Pathfinder is a great place to start looking for inspiration.
not entirely.
Pathfinder is hit and miss, id say handling of classes falls more into the "Miss" territory.
Classes:
Barbarian: Bunt, there isnt really anything added or changed though that affects the flavor
Bard: Bunt: Not so much a miss so much as what is lost in copyright
Cleric: Hit: they changed turn undead to make it better, otherwise the same
Druid: Pitcher.
Fighter: Miss: The changes help, but we still have the curse of Too Many options, not enough choices
Monk: Miss: A minor change actually makes them viable in combat. Their most primary mechanic is still broken
Paladin: Miss: This isnt a paladin, this is a Cha varient Martial. they make LoH worth looking at, but they just make paladin itself a class that doesnt belong in the game
Ranger: Bunt: No real change for better or worse
Rogue: Stylish Miss: good, but nothing that adds to the class where it was lacking
Sorcerer: Mistook Left field for the plate: Interesting, Flavorful, why is this here? Bloodlines are interesting and varied concepts, but this is the sorcerer, their problems arent here, they are at the spell lists
Wizard: Relief Pitcher
Pathfinder is hit and miss, id say handling of classes falls more into the "Miss" territory.
Classes:
Barbarian: Bunt, there isnt really anything added or changed though that affects the flavor
Bard: Bunt: Not so much a miss so much as what is lost in copyright
Cleric: Hit: they changed turn undead to make it better, otherwise the same
Druid: Pitcher.
Fighter: Miss: The changes help, but we still have the curse of Too Many options, not enough choices
Monk: Miss: A minor change actually makes them viable in combat. Their most primary mechanic is still broken
Paladin: Double: This isnt the 2e or 3.5 Paladin but upgrades and fixes many things wrong with the 3.5 Paladin. Sadly it could have been a ton better and the next class can bunt but won't advance this runner (Think Pirates).
Ranger: Bunt: No real change for better or worse
Rogue: Stylish Miss: good, but nothing that adds to the class where it was lacking
Sorcerer: Mistook Left field for the plate: Interesting, Flavorful, why is this here? Bloodlines are interesting and varied concepts, but this is the sorcerer, their problems arent here, they are at the spell lists
Wizard: Relief Pitcher
Loved your analysis of Pathfinder though I disagree about the Paladin (my changes can be seen above in bold). But the rest of your post is completely true if not a bit to nice. I see Pathfinder as the 2012 Buccos... Looks pretty and gives you ton of hope... also did some neat things but in the end... Didn't even make it to .500 :(
Sadly the group I was playing 3.5 with ended up going pathfinder/pathfinder society... Just couldn't take it *blah*
@OP
I really like you E10 idea and have thought simular things in the past. I'm going to see if I can find a group to try it out.
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Loved your analysis of Pathfinder though I disagree about the Paladin (my changes can be seen above in bold). But the rest of your post is completely true if not a bit to nice. I see Pathfinder as the 2012 Buccos... Looks pretty and gives you ton of hope... also did some neat things but in the end... Didn't even make it to .500 :(
The PF paladin isnt a paladin. Specifically, the paladin is not a "Party first" kind of class philosophy. the actual flavor behind paladin is a person that can help almost anytime, but is a loner. The Smite isnt a smite (it is a rage/stance/challenge), the Aura stack is not paladiny at all, Divine bond is a monumental faceplant, and an outsider capstone is even moreso against what paladins stand for. Lay on hands is a grand slam. The "paladin" in pathfinder is an effective class overal, but it isnt a paladin, its a Marshal with Cha in place of Int.
The PF paladin isnt a paladin. Specifically, the paladin is not a "Party first" kind of class philosophy. the actual flavor behind paladin is a person that can help almost anytime, but is a loner. The Smite isnt a smite (it is a rage/stance/challenge), the Aura stack is not paladiny at all, Divine bond is a monumental faceplant, and an outsider capstone is even moreso against what paladins stand for. Lay on hands is a grand slam. The "paladin" in pathfinder is an effective class overal, but it isnt a paladin, its a Marshal with Cha in place of Int.
I... personally fail to see how the PF paladin is anything but a paladin. At the very least, it definitely isn't a marshal. What this guy does (that is "party oriented") is heal people (which a marshal doesn't do and which seems pretty darn divine to me) and give people bonuses to certain saving throws. While the term "aura" is thrown around, they act very little like the auras of a marshal and it isn't at all like this guy is mustering allies across the battlefield (or at least that isn't how things end up in play).
The divine bond, while at a conceptual level sounds weird, only really gives options that sound relevant. You either gain a super magical sword to help you slay evil (which is iconic to the idea of a knight-errant) or you gain a magical mount (which has been part of the paladin for forever).
As far as the smite, the idea of fighting against a single evil opponent in honorable mortal combat sounds far more "paladin-y" to me than singular random bursts of devotion, though YMMV.
I personally see the paladin as being even better at being a one-man hope brigade (being able to heal and protect entire groups of innocents without need for another cleric, possessing iconic abilities relevant to being a divine knight, and actually possessing better combat capability) than the 3.5 version.
Again, though, a matter of opinion.
__________________ Working on finals, to be immediately followed by a trip abroad this summer. Will be back to posting on June 12th. Apologies for inconveniences in the meantime.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primal Fury
okay RoC, that is enough! the gitp boards can only take so much awsome, you might actually hurt somebody with this one!
the PF paladin cant actually as effectively be 1 one man hope brigade that is their class concept as the 3.5 paladin. granted, ACFs kinda help with that, but the aura stack isnt a paladiny thing. Paladins inspire Hope, PF paladins command people to feel hope, to not think, and to call targets to better fight a battle. the capstone is completely out of place, barring the LoH maximize. Paladin in PF is a less effective* healer then the 3.5 paladin can be. Divine Bond is a gimic, even moreso then the mount in 3.5, because you cant improve it at all. ok, you can slap "I make touch attacks" onto any weapon barring the holy avenger and holy sword's weapon, how useful is that compared to the ability to use ranged heals, or a dragon with more power then the rest of the party, or an ACF that lets you become outright invincible with gear. the PF paladin spell list is also more combat oriented then the 3.5 paladin spell list, which only gets 2-3 combat spells per level.
*relative. Paladins in 3.5 are the best healers, even moreso then crusaders (because crusaders have to waste resources on learning inferior strikes and counters), with the divine spirit ACF. PF is more healing friendly, expecially with the Oradin build.
One of the things I may do for a playtest is max out spell level at 5. Not really sure yet but once you get passed 3rd level spells things get crazy enough haha.
What does everyone think about the highest spell level one can obtain?
Responsed spoiled due to not really being on topic. Sorry OP.
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by toapat
The PF paladin isnt a paladin. Specifically, the paladin is not a "Party first" kind of class philosophy. the actual flavor behind paladin is a person that can help almost anytime, but is a loner. The Smite isnt a smite (it is a rage/stance/challenge), the Aura stack is not paladiny at all, Divine bond is a monumental faceplant, and an outsider capstone is even moreso against what paladins stand for. Lay on hands is a grand slam. The "paladin" in pathfinder is an effective class overal, but it isnt a paladin, its a Marshal with Cha in place of Int.
Errr what? Umm just because you have a playstyle doesn't mean that the class has to be played/made that way or it isn't that class. There is nothing mechanically or in the fluff that says the paladin must be a loner. The thought of a Paladin is a guy with some divine casting to augment his melee ability to go out in the world and save it from Chaos and Evil. Why would a class get diplomacy if he was meant to be a loner? Aren't paladins known for banding groups together to go off and kill evil? The Paladin is exactly party first because if the party wins the Paladins Lawful Good goals win. I guess Paladins don't get healing spells/effects that work on other people.. Oh wait they do? Yeah.. Loner...
You are confusing flavor and play style. There are tons of mechanics that say otherwise to your idea of a "loner" class. The Paladin isn't an Avenger who gets bonuses for keeping the party away from his prey.
Can he be a loner? Yeah, but so can a Bard but he doesn't have to be.
Aura of Courage must not stack with any other aura... I must have forgotten they placed that rule within core just to keep the paladin from becoming something else
Outsider Capstone? Haven't read any fluff on it a while but really what would a Paladin want more than to get into their "heaven" and be considered being from his god's realm. Heck really it is the same thing as if the Paladin died in battle and the god made him a warrior in "heaven".
I'm done with the Paladin stuff now.. Talking to someone who has that weird of a view won't help anything.
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